Eteric Rice
Member
Angeles said:
Oh, if we're talking 8-bit than yeah.
Really Opiate, you should have kind of picked something more recent.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Famitsu July 14 (DQ9 review)
- Thread starter xfactor
- Start date
Oh, if we're talking 8-bit than yeah.
Really Opiate, you should have kind of picked something more recent.
Hcoregamer00
The 'H' stands for hentai.
Kintaro said:
We just agree to disagree, we will never see eye to eye.
You hate Valkyria Chronicles for the PSP, I love the idea of portable Valkyria with the gameplay possibilities. You think that the console experience should be the only one, I believe that the PSP experience has the potential to be just as good, if not better.
You will sit on the sidelines complaining how horrible it is for Valkyria to go to PSP, I will be importing it from Japan and playing it.
Eteric Rice said:Oh, if we're talking 8-bit than yeah.
Really Opiate, you should have kind of picked something more recent.
Definitely not. My point was that technology does not affect gameplay: it was essential to my point that I pick something more archaic to show that.
However, I'm now convinced that technology can have some effect on gameplay -- although I'd still argue it's a much smaller effect than most would realize, and is nearly imperceptible on a generation-to-generation basis. By far the largest upgrade has been in visuals, not gameplay.
Opiate said:
I've read all of the post in this thread but are you saying your interaction with the game(visual processing and button inputs) doesn't effect how you play the game. I have hard time understanding how the game processes and displays data doesn't have an effect on how you play it. Maybe our definitions are crossed somewhere.
I think Opiate's argument was far more extreme than necessary. I think when you take the technology argument to an absurd level, the loss in presentation changes how the mechanics are expressed to the degree that it absolutely transforms how the game is played. At a certain point, the context of the game is different, and it affects how the player interprets the mechanics. That has nothing to do with looks.
Opiate, you might want to look deeper in to the example of Dwarf Fortress, because it's a game that does the absolute minimum in terms of presentation and interface while masking huge complexity that would only normally be seen in a next-generation product. Some players find enormous rewards in that complexity, and adore the game, but I can't even get started because I can't tell what is happening when I play. Without being able to get any sort of feedback as to what the mechanics actually are, it's impossible to interpret them and actually engage in the act of play. For instance, were it not for the title of this video, would you have any idea that it represents dwarves fending off an attack by a group of goblins?
That said, on a milder level, I generally agree with it. Most visual gains are marginal. If the player can tell what is happening on screen, and can respond to it in a way that makes sense, the exact quality of the representation isn't of very much importance. To that degree, I'd say that a PSP Valkyira Chronicles probably won't play very differently from a PS3 one besides the different screen sizes and locations. Very little has to be sacrificed in the presentation for that port.
I generally don't like handheld games because I don't play games on the go, and being hunched over a small screen at home usually winds up hurting my neck in the long run. I'm skeptical of Valkyira 2 because of the apparent shift in style and tone that goes further away from the things I liked about the first one when it came to plot and tone. Neither have to do with their graphics.
I've been playing PS2 games and next-gen games pretty much interchangeably this gen. More detailed environments are nice, but they're just window dressing on the fun, generally speaking.
Opiate, you might want to look deeper in to the example of Dwarf Fortress, because it's a game that does the absolute minimum in terms of presentation and interface while masking huge complexity that would only normally be seen in a next-generation product. Some players find enormous rewards in that complexity, and adore the game, but I can't even get started because I can't tell what is happening when I play. Without being able to get any sort of feedback as to what the mechanics actually are, it's impossible to interpret them and actually engage in the act of play. For instance, were it not for the title of this video, would you have any idea that it represents dwarves fending off an attack by a group of goblins?
That said, on a milder level, I generally agree with it. Most visual gains are marginal. If the player can tell what is happening on screen, and can respond to it in a way that makes sense, the exact quality of the representation isn't of very much importance. To that degree, I'd say that a PSP Valkyira Chronicles probably won't play very differently from a PS3 one besides the different screen sizes and locations. Very little has to be sacrificed in the presentation for that port.
I generally don't like handheld games because I don't play games on the go, and being hunched over a small screen at home usually winds up hurting my neck in the long run. I'm skeptical of Valkyira 2 because of the apparent shift in style and tone that goes further away from the things I liked about the first one when it came to plot and tone. Neither have to do with their graphics.
I've been playing PS2 games and next-gen games pretty much interchangeably this gen. More detailed environments are nice, but they're just window dressing on the fun, generally speaking.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
I don't think the NES could pull off a respectable version of Gradius III let alone VC.
Just what in the flying fuck did I just read?
Just what in the flying fuck did I just read?
gtj1092 said:
Why would it? Let's say I have two games, one where pressing A/B/C/A in a specific order and time allows you to disembowel an enemy, while another is just Simon says. What's the difference? Personally, I don't have more fun with one than the other, because the visual input I recieve isn't significant to my enjoyment.
Do you need more examples? I've given a great many. Most games made today -- including Final Fantasy -- are in essence a compilation of very simple game mechanics. The essential mechanics of, say, FF X could be reproduced quite easily on a NES: turn based battles, health represented as numbers (rule: do not go below 1 HP), and randomized battles are all possible on very, very old hardware.
This hints at why I may seem a little hostile in this thread, or condescending. It's clear that some people can't even fathom my viewpoint. As if the idea of not caring about presentation is so foreign that it's a different language.
Think of Go, Gtj. It's a significantly more complicated game than any FF ever made -- profoundly more complicated -- and yet it could be succesfully emulated on an Atari 2600. Whether you represent the Go pieces as pieces or as highly sophisticated, high polygon models is irrelevant to me: the core game remains the same, and it is those core game mechanics I care so much about.
If technology had a significant impact on how much fun we have, then you'd essentially be arguing that we're having profoundly more fun with today's games than people had 30 years ago. Even more extreme, our parents must have had no fun at all when they were kids. And our grandparents may have had negative fun.
Quite to the contrary, we can see research that shows that people are no happier today than they were 32 years ago (when the census began taking these polls). Happiness has stayed relatively flat for that entire time period.
http://www.livescience.com/health/060227_happiness_keys.html
This is strong evidence that technology in general is not making us happier at all -- let alone something as pithy as "Are my games 8 bit or 32 bit?" Let me repeat that, just for emphasis: we are not getting happier as technology advances. This includes really important things like, oh, medical science advances, so it seems incredibly unlikely that something as comparatively irrelevant as video game technology would be any different.
Quite to the contrary, we can see research that shows that people are no happier today than they were 32 years ago (when the census began taking these polls). Happiness has stayed relatively flat for that entire time period.
http://www.livescience.com/health/060227_happiness_keys.html
This is strong evidence that technology in general is not making us happier at all -- let alone something as pithy as "Are my games 8 bit or 32 bit?" Let me repeat that, just for emphasis: we are not getting happier as technology advances. This includes really important things like, oh, medical science advances, so it seems incredibly unlikely that something as comparatively irrelevant as video game technology would be any different.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
Nevermind I'm out of here. This is looney toons.
And no Asteroids does not have more individual objects on screen than Gradius III.
And no Asteroids does not have more individual objects on screen than Gradius III.
I'd wager that a game where you can disembowel your enemy allows you to dispatch your foe in manners that don't involve disembowelment. In that case, you're weighing different tactical options in order to best eliminate a foe, instead of matching button presses. This affects your decision making greatly. Visual displays might also present alternate rewards to the player beyond simple victory (I like seeing the animation of my virtual character disemboweling his virtual opponent), which would also add new dimensions to the calculus of player choice.Opiate said:
Visual feedback for successful player action is incredibly important in many current games. From Resident Evil 4's gory head explosions and flashy roundhouse kicks to Call of Duty's simple "+1 EXP" messages popping up when the player gets a kill, this feedback can consciously or unconsciously guide how a player uses the mechanics in a game, and teach them to play the game better.
Classic board games such as Go already provide all the feedback that they need. Yet while I might have no problem sacrificing a set of pieces in Go in order to secure greater victory, in Valkyria Chronicles, where every soldier I use has a face and a personality, I am always reluctant to let any of them be lost permanently. Even though, mechanically, there is relatively little penalty for losing one of your soldiers, the feedback the game provides makes those soldiers important. Without relying solely on mechanics, it sends the message that the value of your soldiers is greater than their tactical utility.
For one example, your deconstructionist approach to game playing would render the entire "Companion Cube" exercise in Portal meaningless, since you would attach no value to the Companion Cube beyond its ability to progress you through the game.
I hope I'm not misrepresenting your argument, but context has an enormous affect on how nearly everyone plays their game, because it creates all these possibilities. I can imagine some people playing games strictly for the competition through mechanics, yet I'd expect they play a very small subset of titles.
polyh3dron
Banned
It must be a mistake like at E3.DemonSwordsman said:
I AM SURE OF IT
....what the fuck happened in this thread, and can someone summarize Opiate's talking point because I will not read all of that.
What's this about technological limitations of a home console VC versus handheld? What's the argument? Because if there's anything to be said, a handheld VC should be relatively similar to its home console kin, based on control scheme alone, and lack of hardware intensity, which even the dynasty warrior games prove wrong anyways.
What's the problem here?
If its the fact that its on PSP, well tough shit. MGS fans had to deal with that years ago, now anyone who enjoyed VC has to deal with it too. You either get a PSP, or you borrow one, or you just miss out and maybe youtube the story bits.
I went ahead and picked up a PSP for MPO, and I hope that, despite the shitty art direction, that people will pick up a PSP 3000 or Go and get VC2 when that comes out.
What's this about technological limitations of a home console VC versus handheld? What's the argument? Because if there's anything to be said, a handheld VC should be relatively similar to its home console kin, based on control scheme alone, and lack of hardware intensity, which even the dynasty warrior games prove wrong anyways.
What's the problem here?
If its the fact that its on PSP, well tough shit. MGS fans had to deal with that years ago, now anyone who enjoyed VC has to deal with it too. You either get a PSP, or you borrow one, or you just miss out and maybe youtube the story bits.
I went ahead and picked up a PSP for MPO, and I hope that, despite the shitty art direction, that people will pick up a PSP 3000 or Go and get VC2 when that comes out.
sonicmj1 said:
Sure, and these can be replicated with a Simon that can perform multiple functions, too. It's only an example. Just expand on it with a different toy. Imagine a Simon with a couple extra features and/or game modes, it doesn't matter.
All completely reproducable without those representations. These are known more formally as visual queues. Some of them are intense graphical showpieces, a la God of War juggles, where one needs to recognize the precise altitude at which the object is ready to be juggled again. However, all of these could be reduced to timers or simple numbers. RE4, for example, could simply use numerical values displayed how much damage is done: instead of a violent explosion, you could just show a number that is twice as large as normal damage, to show you have hit them particularly hard.
This is an illusion. You believe this because you see the game as is, and not as it could be. As I stated, RE4 absolutely could reduce all models to cubes with absolutely no animation, and use numbers to represent the damage done. On the flipside, Go should represent a stone capture in a highly sophisticated manner: for example, the game could be played as if each stone were a human, and a "captured" group could be represented as people who are killed violently the second they are surrounded. It seems obvious to you that this isn't necessary, because you know what Go is and know that the game doesn't require the more sophisticated visual representation.
I'm stating that RE4 could receive the same treatment, but it's hard to imagine because such a game doesn't exist.
I sacrifice my soldiers in VC all the time.
Correct. I don't care about the companion cube.
[/quote]I hope I'm not misrepresenting your argument, but context has an enormous affect on how nearly everyone plays their game[/quote]
I'm certainly not alone where I live, but apparently I'm quite alone on GAF. I've known this for some time.
Yes. That includes me. I've mentioned many times here that I play a small number of games and almost all of these are exclusively multiplayer. The counter examples are, in recent memory: Braid, Flower, and The Path. I also enjoyed Portal, Echo Chrome, and others.
Wow. :lolOpiate said:
So you went from objectively saying that graphics have no effect on gameplay to subjectively saying that "for me, graphics have no effect on my experience" back to "graphics can't have an effect on enjoyment! Look it's in this vague article misrepresenting a publication!"
And then wondering why people are arguing with your opinion.
Darkpen said:
For some posters here, similar is not good enough.
See: Hobbun.
Hobbun said:
Opiate is taking the complete opposite position, which is that handhelds aren't really different from home consoles, because technology is (or can be, depending on perspective) entirely irrelevant, since it exists independently of core gameplay mechanics.
1cesc said:
Correct. In fact, I had to go through 3 posts to explain why "Game Mechanics" and "Experience" are distinct.
I still contend that graphics have very little (but not nonexistant) affect on game mechanics, because game mechanics can be explicitly and precisely defined. I do not contend that someone is unable to have a different "experience," because that is a subjective position and a very vague term.
And there is no misrepresentation going on. The core point is this: the US governement does a Census. That Census measures many things, and among those things is general happiness of the population. Since it has taken that measurement, people are no happier today than they were when the measurement began -- in fact, in 2008, we were slightly less happy than people were in 1976.
I'm not sure how much more credible a source you can get than the US Census.
It is reasonable to conclude from that evidence that we haven't gotten happier as technology has improved. Does this directly refer to video games? Of course not. But it's a reasonable conclusion to draw, if more substantial technological improvements failed to improve our happiness.
Darkpen said:
Opiate says valkyria doesn't really use PS3 power other than fancy graphics and even NES can handle valkyria chronicles by making it TEXT based gameplay
In short he thinks converting this
to this
Will not effect the gameplay but will only change the graphic style
sonicmj1 said:
Not sure exactly why you pointed my post out in particular.
sonicmj1 said:
That last part when I talk about the PSP, that was more of a general answer to those on why I would like the game to stay on the PS3 than go to the PSP. Not another counterpoint in my discussion with Opiate.
Dude, I know what you're trying to get at. But you're coming off the wrong way. You can't make one argument objectively and then expect people to treat it as your opinion. I mean, when you post an article citing research on happiness and technology what are people supposed to infer? It's hard to take that as support for an opinion. Anyways, I'm out, good luck, the argument is pretty interesting.Opiate said:
P.S. I think VC2 will work great on PSP.
oh
huh
...
Well, talk about blowing shit out proportions.
Everything that Hobbun points out are things that several people in the official VC thread actually didn't like, from vitriol for the character design and story, to frustrating gameplay. There's a little bit of something that everyone likes about VC, and it just so happens that surround sound visual wow-ness is taken away by being on a handheld.
Personally, I think Crisis Core is a proof of concept that you can deliver a AAA experience on a handheld, and I only hope that the people working on VC2 can deliver on that same level.
If there's one thing that I get most concerned about when it comes to handheld transitions, its how the gameplay translates, and most of the time that comes with issues regarding the control scheme, from God of War, to Metal Gear Solid. GoW's developers did some really creative things in how they further compacted the controls, in comparison to MPO where the developers sacrificed practicality for a bullet point, and I don't feel that VC2 needs to do either of these (because honestly, how many people actually ever peeked corners, and even if you did, they can always map that to the d-pad).
Games such as VC and RE4/5 are games that are easy to translate to a one stick+one dpad control scheme, as the lack of a second set of shoulder buttons doesn't really hurt it.
They'd have to REALLY fuck up and be way over ambitious to fuck VC2 up, and completely lose sight of the tactical aspect of the game, to make VC2 "un-VC," if you will.
I'm optimistic that VC2 will very well be a portable version with perhaps shorter burts of missions, but to be honest, I'm not terribly confident in how their execution will turn out, either.
huh
...
Well, talk about blowing shit out proportions.
Everything that Hobbun points out are things that several people in the official VC thread actually didn't like, from vitriol for the character design and story, to frustrating gameplay. There's a little bit of something that everyone likes about VC, and it just so happens that surround sound visual wow-ness is taken away by being on a handheld.
Personally, I think Crisis Core is a proof of concept that you can deliver a AAA experience on a handheld, and I only hope that the people working on VC2 can deliver on that same level.
If there's one thing that I get most concerned about when it comes to handheld transitions, its how the gameplay translates, and most of the time that comes with issues regarding the control scheme, from God of War, to Metal Gear Solid. GoW's developers did some really creative things in how they further compacted the controls, in comparison to MPO where the developers sacrificed practicality for a bullet point, and I don't feel that VC2 needs to do either of these (because honestly, how many people actually ever peeked corners, and even if you did, they can always map that to the d-pad).
Games such as VC and RE4/5 are games that are easy to translate to a one stick+one dpad control scheme, as the lack of a second set of shoulder buttons doesn't really hurt it.
They'd have to REALLY fuck up and be way over ambitious to fuck VC2 up, and completely lose sight of the tactical aspect of the game, to make VC2 "un-VC," if you will.
I'm optimistic that VC2 will very well be a portable version with perhaps shorter burts of missions, but to be honest, I'm not terribly confident in how their execution will turn out, either.
I'm not going to respond to all of these. A lot show that we're just coming at things from different points of view. I can understand your perspective, but it's certainly different from the GAF norm. I don't believe going to the full extreme of "all games could be text-based" was necessary to support your contention, and it naturally created a lot of hostility.
I think you misunderstand me a bit here. The head explosion isn't a reward for a headshot. Often RE4 enemies live through the initial headshot. It's a reward for a successful kill, distinct from the (mechanically identical) body shot kill. Higher numbers would not replicate this reward.
Interestingly, the initially rewarding head explosion gets subverted later on in the game, when an exploding head might also indicate the emergence of the deadly Plagas parasite from the host Ganado that you had thought you killed.
Maybe this doesn't seem obvious to me because I feel like Go would be a very different game with complex visual representation. You feel differently, as you demonstrate later. I'm not going to dispute that.
Could you elaborate on some of these? I can sort of understand a few (Echochrome is pretty much pure mechanics, and while I think you'd be missing a lot, Portal and Braid are certainly both enjoyable purely on a mechanical level), I'm not entirely sure about the others. Flower and The Path (both of which, incidentially, I haven't played) seem like they'd be pretty unsatisfying if you boiled them down exclusively to their mechanics. What makes these games stand out to you?
Also, did you look at Dwarf Fortress at all?
Opiate said:
I think you misunderstand me a bit here. The head explosion isn't a reward for a headshot. Often RE4 enemies live through the initial headshot. It's a reward for a successful kill, distinct from the (mechanically identical) body shot kill. Higher numbers would not replicate this reward.
Interestingly, the initially rewarding head explosion gets subverted later on in the game, when an exploding head might also indicate the emergence of the deadly Plagas parasite from the host Ganado that you had thought you killed.
Maybe this doesn't seem obvious to me because I feel like Go would be a very different game with complex visual representation. You feel differently, as you demonstrate later. I'm not going to dispute that.
Could you elaborate on some of these? I can sort of understand a few (Echochrome is pretty much pure mechanics, and while I think you'd be missing a lot, Portal and Braid are certainly both enjoyable purely on a mechanical level), I'm not entirely sure about the others. Flower and The Path (both of which, incidentially, I haven't played) seem like they'd be pretty unsatisfying if you boiled them down exclusively to their mechanics. What makes these games stand out to you?
Also, did you look at Dwarf Fortress at all?
Hobbun said:
It was just the first post I saw that took your position.
Opiate's argument originally began from attempting to rebut those who thought that the game going to the PSP would impact its quality, that there was something about it going to a handheld that would make it inherently inferior. The discussion had changed shape by the point you posted, but I think you are basically on opposite sides.
sonicmj1 said:
As I stated earlier, my two primary concerns when gaming are 1) Mechanics and 2) Intellectual stimulation. Sometimes the former supplies the latter, but it isn't mandatory.
The games mentioned above are examples of games that I hoped would stimulate me intellectually even if the mechanics were not particularly compelling. Another was Bioshock.
I felt like Braid and The Fall both succeeded in stimulating me intellectually. I felt Bioshock failed. The best example of a single player game I can think of with extremely compelling mechanics is Tetris.
Not only did I look at it, I've played it many times before. I enjoy the game a great deal.
P.S. The Path is fantastic. Game of the Year with a bullet for me.
Hcoregamer00 said:
No, what you said was objectively wrong. In fact, you contradicted yourself. You can't say "Oh sure, it'll be a downgrade, but it'll be the same!" It's not the same experience. It will be inherently different. There's no question.
I hate a sequel appearing on the PSP, yes. I dislike that idea. It's not even on the comparable to DQ to DS. Am I against VC on the PSP? No. A sequel? Yes. Especially within the same generation. Keep that shit together. Make it PS3/360, whatever. It's a complete switcharoo. It's like if Uncharted was on PS3 and Uncharted 2 was on PSP as a sequel. You don't think people would be pissed? How about Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare, then Modern Warfare 2 were to appear exclusively on the DS. Yeah, I'd say people would be ticked. Rightfully so. Mass Effect 1 on 360, then Mass Effect 2 exclusively on iPhone. This making any sense to you?
I won't be sitting on the "sidelines". I'll be lucky to remember this game is even coming out by the end of the month besides the GAF thread about it here and there. I'd start those rally cries early for Atlus to license this for US release. There's no way Sega is bringing this out in the US.
Seriously, though, Opiate's talking points are absurdly extreme and even stupid. If you were to make everything a text-based adventure, you'd lose a lot of room that comes with human error, which even dice rolls can't ultimately simulate.
You can take gameplay only as far back as the technology that first gave birth to it allows, not to mention that we are a very visual and aural species. You can't deny the feedback that entertainment is supposed to offer.
What a stupid digression.
You can take gameplay only as far back as the technology that first gave birth to it allows, not to mention that we are a very visual and aural species. You can't deny the feedback that entertainment is supposed to offer.
What a stupid digression.
pete_townshend
Banned
Other things that Opiate prefers:
Low-salt saltines with a nice glass of room temperature water
Novels written in morse code
White noise CDs
Cave paintings
Low-salt saltines with a nice glass of room temperature water
Novels written in morse code
White noise CDs
Cave paintings
Opiate said:
Alright. That's good to know. Since I don't really feel like pursuing the question of how technology is related to the ability of those games to supply intellectual stimulation (which is rare enough in games as it is), I'll just leave it at that.
I'd heard a lot about Dwarf Fortress, and I thought it sounded interesting, but as much as I tried (watching online walkthroughs, downloading a graphics pack), I couldn't get into it because I couldn't understand it. While it definitely works for some people, it seems to me to best demonstrate the pitfalls of how poor graphics and interface can make it hard for people to access the mechanics of a game and enjoy it. Similarly, I couldn't get into Nethack, but I loved Spelunky, because I could actually tell what was happening, and convert the base mechanics represented by squiggles and colored letters into concepts and ideas that I could parse.
Enjoy your games.
Darkpen said:
You'd also gain some room. For example, the lob shots in VC discussed earlier could be done much more precisely with text than they could by simply eyeballing it. You can type in a precise angle to get a precise hit.
And of course, most types of human error can be readily simulated through randomization patterns. Oregon Trail had successful randomization back on the Apple IIe (And other systems).
Yes I can. That's precisely what I'm doing. Have you read my posts? How about you say this: I personally care about the way games look and sound, and leave it at that. That's fine. I don't. That's also fine.
But please, please, please don't imply that this is what everyone thinks. Saying "it's human nature" implies that you are "correct" in caring about these things and that I am somehow not human for not caring. If you're wondering why I seem irked at times in this thread, it's this sort of implication that gets to me.
I've tried to avoid -- and failed on a couple of occasions -- calling people who care about visuals/audio "graphics whores" or implying they are superficial (even though graphics are, by literal definition, superficial). You're not, it's more complicated than that. I want to emphasize again that it's completely okay to have your preferences, Dark Pen.
Now please accept that my preferences are okay, too.
Like I said earlier, extreme examples are extreme. Opiate just got hussled into a corner by the various thought experiments being postulated in this thread.
VC can most certainly be done on a lesser platform, and even on a completely standard Jean D'Arc styled isometric view with the same Yoshi's Story 'storybook' graphics ( I really puzzle over that. It's fantastic to look at but hardly anything that can't be done elsewhere or that haven't been tried before)
As I noted earlier, there's nothing there that's particularly innovative and the 2-D SRPGs that dominate the field have certainly not exhausted themselves artistically, or technically to be able to have their own novelties to sell a hex based, isometric SRPG game.
The argument seems to boil down to the steadfast defense of the PS3 as being the only platform that can do this game justice. And if you define it in terms of replicating it pixel by pixel, I guess there's a point there.
Otherwise, it's just an extremely playable SRPG that happens to be in 3D and not stuck with an overhead camera.
oh yeah, extreme examples are extreme and I think we need the power of PS9 to do this game justice really. So how about we wait another 20 years to maximize our happiness.
VC can most certainly be done on a lesser platform, and even on a completely standard Jean D'Arc styled isometric view with the same Yoshi's Story 'storybook' graphics ( I really puzzle over that. It's fantastic to look at but hardly anything that can't be done elsewhere or that haven't been tried before)
As I noted earlier, there's nothing there that's particularly innovative and the 2-D SRPGs that dominate the field have certainly not exhausted themselves artistically, or technically to be able to have their own novelties to sell a hex based, isometric SRPG game.
The argument seems to boil down to the steadfast defense of the PS3 as being the only platform that can do this game justice. And if you define it in terms of replicating it pixel by pixel, I guess there's a point there.
Otherwise, it's just an extremely playable SRPG that happens to be in 3D and not stuck with an overhead camera.
oh yeah, extreme examples are extreme and I think we need the power of PS9 to do this game justice really. So how about we wait another 20 years to maximize our happiness.
These examples do a fantastic job of highlighting my point, actually. First and foremost, people actually do like cave paintings quite a bit: I don't, but it's quite common to enjoy them and study them to this day. I've never heard anyone refer to them as boring, in fact.
The first two examples, however, are liked by very few people, and they really never have been. This is important. Consider a game like Dino Crisis. Is it fun today? I would guess people think it isn't, because very few people play it, and 0 copies are sold a day in stores. However, when it came out, the game was very well liked and sold many copies.
Now, contrast this with "novels written in morse code." Even when morse code was new -- heck, even when novels were new, and Cervantes was a young lad -- people did not enjoy novels in morse code. This suggests that the concept (or mechanics) are genuinely unappealing.
If something was fun at some point, then the only thing stopping it from still being fun is your own frame of reference. It COULD be fun again, but you've conditioned yourself not to be interested in it any longer. By contrast, the fact that people never found Morse Code novels to be fun -- either when morse code was released or now -- is strong evidence that the mechanics themselves are boring.
Deku said:
Alright, I need to go to bed, this is my last post.
I just want to point out that I don't feel "hustled in to a corner" at all. I feel like Sonic, Tain and Haitos all helped me work through these concepts significantly, and I thank them for it. I definitely agree that technology can have some effect on mechanics now.
Your posts are so terrible. :lol Valkyria Chronicles will work out perfectly fine on the PSP.Angeles said:Opiate says valkyria doesn't really use PS3 power other than fancy graphics and even NES can handle valkyria chronicles by making it TEXT based gameplay
In short he thinks converting this
to this
Will not effect the gameplay but will only change the graphic style
Kintaro said:
I don't think using a bunch of critically acclaimed titles (two of them in extreme hyperbole situations) to prove your point is entirely appropriate in this situation, especially when considering that the main reason VC is in this situation in the first place is foremost a business decision rather than a switcharoo out of spite (ie, VC probably not doing that extraordinarily well to justify another big budget HD attempt without building it into some kind of franchise to establish staying power, and it was not like the recent spike in sales could have halted a PSP game that was obviously in development since probably last year). Sequel numbering or not, the game still seems like an intermediate step to a greater cause as evident by the director's intentions; building a future for the VC series in a more cost-effective manner without completely sacrificing everything about it.
Not that I don't understand where you're coming from, especially added by how you do not seem that big on handheld gaming to begin with as evident by another topic on GAF. However, as someone who is a fan of RPGs and SRPGs, it is not as if this is an absolute worst case scenario (No VC at all, VC to the DS, VC to the mobile phones) and at least Sega's intentions are clear that the PSP is not the only future for the franchise. I'm sorry that you won't be onboard for this game, but eh. If it sells well enough, maybe it'll be back on the consoles sooner than expected.
I can respect your preferences, what kinds of games you play is your business, but I'm saying that each genre has different types of values in how randomness is employed, and despite what you said, that's not having "room," that's being not only overly precise, but much more of an unrealistic "simulation" of a grenade lob than how the game already works to begin with. That sort of gameplay would be restricted simply to something like tank simulation, but without any sort of real feedback.Opiate said:
Therefore, your example of translating VC to text-based is absurd, not for the validity of potential in replication, but in terms of practicality and how "fun" it would actually be. There's inherent value in the tactile nature of modern gaming, and you lose something when you take that many steps back.
Darkpen said:
That would be the "experience." I think we're just trying to dissect the gaming functionality here. Functionally, you could replicate the underlying game code actions in a text-based game without graphics. After all, the game itself calculates everything behind the scenes and then just creates a visual representation of what it calculated. I think most wouldn't prefer that method, but you could still do it.
MechaX said:
Given the terrible business decisions Sega made with this game on the console and how lucky they were that things came out of it respectably, I put no faith in this series appearing the US again on a console. At least not published by Sega. After all, if it sells gangbusters on PSP, why the fuck around anyone want to move it back to a console? Just more lip service from another developer.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
Yeesh glad that's over with. I tried envisioning games as nothing but squares and numbers and it was such a depressing sight.
Even if something playable could be created it wouldn't be enjoyable. It took Opiate about a dozen or so posts to make me dislike videogames more than this entire forum has managed to do in years.
Even if something playable could be created it wouldn't be enjoyable. It took Opiate about a dozen or so posts to make me dislike videogames more than this entire forum has managed to do in years.
PepsimanVsJoe said:
extreme examples are extreme.
I play a lot of strategy and srpgs. Graphics is like 3rd or 4th in my list of things I need improved or spiffied before I start enjoying it.
Sorry, but just end it now while you're ahead. You've made your point (i think) that dots < 3D models.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
Anyway what was I talking about before all this? Ohhhh yeah. Massive racks.
I may have to check VC out. I've been watching the entire game on youtube and it looks pretty swell. I'm not much for SRPGs but I guess it's because I've played too much N1 bullshit.
I may have to check VC out. I've been watching the entire game on youtube and it looks pretty swell. I'm not much for SRPGs but I guess it's because I've played too much N1 bullshit.
rollingstart
Banned
wait, is this entire arguments because of Valkyria on PSP?
please tell me that isn't the case and people are arguing it will be some downgrade. Valkyria isn't even a good looking game on PS3 nor does it require more controls that the PSP has.
You know I didn't mean a book!
There really isn't too much to argue here. Everyone has their own opinions about this stuff, and while both sides can be stubborn, in the end both win because games will continue to flourish with both great gameplay and graphics.
please tell me that isn't the case and people are arguing it will be some downgrade. Valkyria isn't even a good looking game on PS3 nor does it require more controls that the PSP has.
Opiate said:
You know I didn't mean a book!
There really isn't too much to argue here. Everyone has their own opinions about this stuff, and while both sides can be stubborn, in the end both win because games will continue to flourish with both great gameplay and graphics.
http://forums.sega.com/showpost.php?p=5079063&postcount=32
Translation source apparently from animesuki, can't find it though.
The new scan w/ the Blitz stuff and this translation has given me faith that the game will be good, but I still don't like the character design, even if its VC1's character designer. I also don't like the whole school thing.
Translation source apparently from animesuki, can't find it though.
・コンセプトは学校＋戦争
Games Concept :- School Life + War
　　アバンたちは士官学校に在籍しているが、普段は通常の学生たちと変わらない生活を送ってい る。
　　彼らが戦場という非日常世界を行き来するのが本作のコンセプト。
Game will focus around how the officer cadet's life gets turn around when they thrust into the battlefield.
　　学校内にある作戦準備室でミッション選択をし、戦場へ。戦況は前作と同じで出撃前のブリー フィングで確 認可能。
The school will act as a mission briefing room where the player choose to select missions before proceeding with oen.
　　勝利条件を達成、ミッションクリアすると舞台は再び学校となり、これを繰り返しながら進ん でいくことに 。
After a mission is complete, Player will return to the school. Such the the way the player will proceed with the game.
　・インタビューより
Interview :-
　　より広いユーザーの皆さんに『戦ヴァル』の魅力を知ってもらいたいという思いからPSPで リリースする ことに。
The producer made this PSP release knowing the charm of VC1.
　　新作とするにあたって醍醐味のひとつである戦闘システム『BLiTZ』をより遊び応えのあ るものにパワ ーアップ。
The new work will featured a upgraded version of the popular BLiTZ battle system.
　　特に自分の部隊の成長やカスタマイズ性を大きく強化。
The growth system will be better since the player will be able to customise their characters.
　　またアドホックモードの通信プレイに新しい遊びの可能性を感じたのも大きな理由のひとつ。
An Adhoc mode is included to allow room for new ways to play the game.
　　本作をナンバリングタイトルとしたのは我々の本気度をユーザーに知っていただきたいから。
Producer wants the player to know that they are serious about this game being a true sequal,
　　単なるスピンオフ作品ではないし携帯機だから質を下げるつもりは無い。
This game is not just a spin off and the fact that this is on a handheld does not mean the game has been downgraded.
　　ミッション数は前作の数倍に。ユニット育成要素も奥深く。
The number of mission has increased from the previous title. And the number of units accessible for growth is vast.
　　本作でも水彩画のような映像表現のCANVASを採用し、
　　携帯機と思えないクオリティに仕上がるようこだわって制作中。
They are still making use of the CANVAS system, but they tried to work it into a manageable level that can be handled by a handheld.
　　
ゲーム内で時間が流れると季節が移り変わり、季節ごとに学校行事が発生したり(プールもある
　　制服が変化するといった要素もあります。
Time will be shown passing in the game by the way the students are dressed for the seasons, events happening and how the Pool is.
The new scan w/ the Blitz stuff and this translation has given me faith that the game will be good, but I still don't like the character design, even if its VC1's character designer. I also don't like the whole school thing.