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[Angry Grimace]

I mean, the definition of "star" is questionable. I mean, does Sami Zayn count as a "star?" He's Raw's version of Dolph Ziggler (where he gets singles matches but he's not pushed as being above a midcarder), but then again, is Ziggler a star?

I'd be more likely to put American Alpha on the "stars" list if the tag team division wasn't several feet underground. I mean, good on WWE for pushing the women up the card, but the tag team stuff is just languishing at this point. I'm a bit surprised they haven't thrown the belts back on New Day.

The entire tag division from both brands is abysmal.

 

[BewareTheBatsie]

cagematch.net says WWE Unforgiven 2006 is a great PPV. We'll see about that, cagematch.net.

That's the one where Vince's face is shoved in Big Show's ass, right?

 

[jmdajr]

Big E is mostly FCW and is arguably the best thing on that list. Enzo? Really?

He's On TV, selling Merch, and people are repeating his catch phrases. Although I heard fans were boing him recently.

But I mean, what are our expectations? Only Rock, Hogan, Austin, Cena level?

 

[Zach]

That's the one where Vince's face is shoved in Big Show's ass, right?

Dude, important storyline spoilers. C'mon.

P.S. Who the heck are The Highlanders?

 

[BewareTheBatsie]

On one level I count stars as people who are talented and are entirely creations of WWE. So people like Charlotte or Big-E.

Dude, important storyline spoilers. C'mon.

P.S. Who the heck are The Highlanders?

Aren't they the tag team where one of them got fired after being caught on TNA cameras by being in the audience?

 

[Bert409]

 

[Angry Grimace]

Being a "homegrown" star has no intrinsic value. There's nothing particularly interesting or valuable about producing big stars by yourself as opposed to getting them from Ring of Honor, NJPW, TNA or wherever.

 

[kirblar]

I mean, the definition of "star" is questionable. I mean, does Sami Zayn count as a "star?" He's Raw's version of Dolph Ziggler (where he gets singles matches but he's not pushed as being above a midcarder), but then again, is Ziggler a star?

I'd be more likely to put American Alpha on the "stars" list if the tag team division wasn't several feet underground. I mean, good on WWE for pushing the women up the card, but the tag team stuff is just languishing at this point. I'm a bit surprised they haven't thrown the belts back on New Day.

The entire tag division from both brands is abysmal.

Zayn still has massive upside potential that Dolph never did.

 

[BewareTheBatsie]

 

[Zach]

Where's the zoom and shake? I'm mad.

 

[jmdajr]

So I guess Rock is still the biggest Star created by WWE that was never anywhere else.
Did he ever even do Indie shit? Like a OVW?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Zayn still has massive upside potential that Dolph never did.

I like Zayn, but I'm skeptical of it.

Zayn's match with Samoa Joe at Fastlane is basically the only thing calculated to keep the card from being bottom tier though.

Regardless of the outcome, Goldberg/Owens is almost assuredly not going to be a real match; St/Roman isn't likely to to have a legit finish (I'm guessing double DQ or countout), Charlotte/Bayley is a random excuse for Charlotte to get her heat back; and Anderson is the only decent worker in the entire tag championship match.

So I guess Rock is still the biggest Star created by WWE that was never anywhere else.
Did he ever even do Indie shit? Like a OVW?

Rock is the biggest wrestling star ever so there's that. He did a little bit of work in Jerry Lawler's promotion, but of course, wrasslin' is a big family thing so much like Bray he was always fast tracked to be in WWE.

 

[Syder]

Zayn will be a Universal Champ one day though. Zigglypuff was never WWE Champion.

 

[Sephzilla]

Zayn will be a Universal Champ one day though. Zigglypuff was never WWE Champion.

He was a World Heavyweight Champion, which has since been merged into the WWE Championship legacy............ so technically he was

 

[kirblar]

I like Zayn, but I'm skeptical of it.

Zayn's match with Samoa Joe at Fastlane is basically the only thing calculated to keep the card from being bottom tier though.

Regardless of the outcome, Goldberg/Owens is almost assuredly not going to be a real match; St/Roman isn't likely to to have a legit finish (I'm guessing double DQ or countout), Charlotte/Bayley is a random excuse for Charlotte to get her heat back; and Anderson is the only decent worker in the entire tag championship match.

Sami's international appeal + he actually gives a shit gives him more upside than Dolph, who's eternal issue is that he just doesn't seem to have the drive to go bigger.

 

[BewareTheBatsie]

Speaking of Ziggler, did you guys know he's terrible and this heel turn is also terrible?

 

[Syder]

He was a World Heavyweight Champion, which has since been merged into the WWE Championship legacy............ so technically he was

Yeah but he was never trusted to be the 'face of the company' which says something about his career. Solid upper mid-carder.

Speaking of Ziggler, did you guys know he's terrible and this heel turn is also terrible?

You mean, you're not a fan of Alt-Right Ziggler?

 

[jmdajr]

So Cena is the biggest WWE homegrown star with no family history in wrestling?

I mean does Mean Mark run even count in WCW? (or was it NWA)

 

[British Monsoon]

Being a "homegrown" star has no intrinsic value. There's nothing particularly interesting or valuable about producing big stars by yourself as opposed to getting them from Ring of Honor, NJPW, TNA or wherever.

One thing I find with fans who only really watch WWE is that they're looking for the finished product - comparatively, one of the big appeals of indie wrestling is that you get to watch the sort of career progression you don't get with a ready-made superstar. It's why I gave more of a damn about Punk & Bryan than pretty much anyone else in the WWE since, because I'd watched them from the earliest days of their career, right up to becoming main eventers on the biggest stage.

If WWE can properly present rookie talents, sell the idea of watching someone work their way to the top from the ground up, then I'd say there's definitely value there.

 

[Beefy]

Only wrestler I have a real problem with is Enzo and it's not because he is annoying on the mic. The guy just can't wrestle.

 

[jmdajr]

Only wrestler I have a real problem with is Enzo and it's not because he is annoying on the mic. The guy just can't wrestle.

From what I recall he was going to be shown the door, but Cena out in a big word for him.

Maybe he will get better. I mean look at Dean Ambrose!

 

[Zach]

I mean does Mean Mark run even count in WCW?

YES.

 

[jmdajr]

YES.

I would agree.

 

[SallyIsNow]

Is Zach a 'star'?

 

[Angry Grimace]

One thing I find with fans who only really watch WWE is that they're looking for the finished product - comparatively, one of the big appeals of indie wrestling is that you get to watch the sort of career progression you don't get with a ready-made superstar. It's why I gave more of a damn about Punk & Bryan than pretty much anyone else in the WWE since, because I'd watched them from the earliest days of their career, right up to becoming main eventers on the biggest stage.

If WWE can properly present rookie talents, sell the idea of watching someone work their way to the top from the ground up, then I'd say there's definitely value there.

I get what you're saying, but in some ways you also might as well be arguing it would be valuable if WWE signed someone who had the power of unassisted self-propelled flight, because WWE never presents their guys like that. You either end up with geeks like Corbin that the fans don't really buy into simply because they're so green, or you end up with Roman Reigns, who the fans detest because they can smell "Vince wants this guy over now" all over everything he does.

As weird as it sounds to say, I think Braun Strowman is the closest thing you'll see to that. He's definitely green, but also not necessarily un-talented and its a balancing act between pushing him too hard and turning him into a comedy geek.

Wrestling is a weird business. I don't buy that the fans legitimately hate Roman or the guy playing Roman, but nobody enjoys having a storyline turn into a plot tumor simply because the writer has a boner for a specific character.

 

[jmdajr]

Man. Harper looks great.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I think the funniest part of Meltzer and Alvarez's random rant about "you deserve it" chants was that they didn't seem particularly aware of whether they were making a shoot complaint or a kayfabe complaint. Like Meltzer argued that Naomi doesn't actually deserve it because she isn't the best wrestler either in shoot or kayfabe, so it makes no sense, which Alvarez agreed with. Like they seemed legitimately puzzled why a crowd would say that to Naomi when she's "not the best wrestler."

Then you see yesterday where Daniel Bryan goes into the ring and rationally explains the chant (they're appreciating a performer who put in their time and paid their dues), but I bet you anything they will criticize Bryan/Vince for "excusing" the chant.

 

[kirblar]

I get what you're saying, but in some ways you also might as well be arguing it would be valuable if WWE signed someone who had the power of unassisted self-propelled flight, because WWE never presents their guys like that. You either end up with geeks like Corbin that the fans don't really buy into simply because they're so green, or you end up with Roman Reigns, who the fans detest because they can smell "Vince wants this guy over now" all over everything he does.

As weird as it sounds to say, I think Braun Strowman is the closest thing you'll see to that. He's definitely green, but also not necessarily un-talented and its a balancing act between pushing him too hard and turning him into a comedy geek.

Wrestling is a weird business. I don't buy that the fans legitimately hate Roman or the guy playing Roman, but nobody enjoys having a storyline turn into a plot tumor simply because the writer has a boner for a specific character.

The fans turned on Roman because WWE totally botched him.

 

[Bluekaveli]

Fuck Meltzer and his hack partner.

 

[Syder]

Man. Harper looks great.

 

[Hasney]

Are you ready for this vanilla midget to bury all your favs

Favs? He's on Raw. There's no favs there.

 

[slightconfuse]

WWE needs stars?

How about 6 of them

 

[Foggy]

Considering there's no value to the belts, I'd imagine the chant is viciously sardonic

 

[Luschient]

 

[Ithil]

Has NXT created any stars at all?

It's created a few that were ready to be stars, but the main roster failed to follow up on them in any way.

 

[Beefy]

So who is the Enzo of GWF?

 

[Recall]

I don't like the jeans / tank top look on wrestlers.

It's weird. It shouldnt bother me yet it does.

 

[Browny]

So who is the Enzo of GWF?

It's not BronsonLee.

Spoiler

Or perhaps it is...

 

[Ithil]

I think the funniest part of Meltzer and Alvarez's random rant about "you deserve it" chants was that they didn't seem particularly aware of whether they were making a shoot complaint or a kayfabe complaint. Like Meltzer argued that Naomi doesn't actually deserve it because she isn't the best wrestler either in shoot or kayfabe, so it makes no sense, which Alvarez agreed with. Like they seemed legitimately puzzled why a crowd would say that to Naomi when she's "not the best wrestler."

Then you see yesterday where Daniel Bryan goes into the ring and rationally explains the chant (they're appreciating a performer who put in their time and paid their dues), but I bet you anything they will criticize Bryan/Vince for "excusing" the chant.

I think it's the fact that crowds now chant it for literally every title change for a face and 9/10 times for a heel. So does everyone deserve it? Then it doesn't really mean anything.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

I have a theory that there are no more WWE stars. It's similar to the current movie industry where instead of a film (or a program in WWE's case) revolving around one or more guys, what we have now is just the WWE brand.

People go to shows not to see 'someone', but to see 'WWE'.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I think it's the fact that crowds now chant it for literally every title change for a face and 9/10 times for a heel. So does everyone deserve it? Then it doesn't really mean anything.

The problem is that this argument requires a pre-supposition that lots of wrestlers don't actually deserve it, but are given the chant anyways.

They're expressing appreciation for a performer being given a cool moment, nothing more. They're not doing it to be intrusive of the show or to play along with kayfabe or to suggest everyone who gets it is the "best," its to give a moment of appreciation to the people who take a billion bumps for entertainment purposes. Naomi isn't the best wrestler and neither is Bray Wyatt. But they've also been around basically forever without being put over in any real way, so people appreciate what they've done, its that simple.

 

[kirblar]

I have a theory that there are no more WWE stars. It's similar to the current movie industry where instead of a film (or a program in WWE's case) revolving around one or more guys, what we have now is just the WWE brand.

People go to shows not to see 'someone', but to see 'WWE'.

You're correct insomuch as that was the WWE's post-Rock/Brock/etc strategy, as Vince got pissed that the top guys kept jetting off and wanted to clamp down and started pushing the Brand over the Stars.

The problem is that things don't actually work that way.

This is why we then we got 10+years of Cena - he and Batista were the last two actual stars they made before Vince got afraid of making new ones.

 

[Anth0ny]

I think it's the fact that crowds now chant it for literally every title change for a face and 9/10 times for a heel. So does everyone deserve it? Then it doesn't really mean anything.

people who don't deserve it: cena, orton, reigns


there

 

[Menome]

So who is the Enzo of GWF?

Talks a load of bollocks but can't back it up?

Must be my old (young) nemesis OwensIsNow.

 

[Nekofrog]

For all the knocks on nxt for not creating stars, there is something to be said for having a division that you can keep guys in a holding pattern while keeping them on the periphery of audience perception until there is room for him to move to the main roster. Some might call this a waste of talent and it probably is, but it definitely serves its purpose. Lock them down early with a contract, keep them involved and building steam,then unleash them.

Let's be honest if we didn't get nxt Joe he would have been dead in the water going straight to raw based off where he was before nxt.

 

[Syder]

I'm so glad we didn't have to sit around with AJ in NXT for 18 months...

 

[Heroman]

For all the knocks on nxt for not creating stars, there is something to be said for having a division that you can keep guys in a holding pattern while keeping them on the periphery of audience perception until there is room for him to move to the main roster. Some might call this a waste of talent and it probably is, but it definitely serves its purpose. Lock them down early with a contract, keep them involved and building steam,then unleash them.

Let's be honest if we didn't get nxt Joe he would have been dead in the water going straight to raw based off where he was before nxt.

AJ disproves all of this, I mean could you imagine if Vince told Steve Austin you need to spend time in our training promotion before you can make it to the main roster?

 

[jmdajr]

For all the knocks on nxt for not creating stars, there is something to be said for having a division that you can keep guys in a holding pattern while keeping them on the periphery of audience perception until there is room for him to move to the main roster. Some might call this a waste of talent and it probably is, but it definitely serves its purpose. Lock them down early with a contract, keep them involved and building steam,then unleash them.

Let's be honest if we didn't get nxt Joe he would have been dead in the water going straight to raw based off where he was before nxt.

For sure Joe was damaged goods from TNA. They have done well with him.

 

[jmdajr]

AJ disproves all of this, I mean could you imagine if Vince told Steve Austin you need to speed time in our training promotion before you can make it to the main roster?

AJ wasn't doing well in Japan?

 

[Syder]

could you imagine if Vince told Steve Austin you need to speed time in our training promotion before you can make it to the main roster?