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Fez's dev to japanese developers: "your games just suck"

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J

Jamix012

Member
Dave Meltzer said:
The industry isn't a person.

Somebody saying "You're a dick" to Phil Fish is an attack

Saying "Japanese games suck" is an opinion.

Who has he insulted without being attacked first?
Click to expand...

Hypothetically if you were a japanese developer these are really one and the same, that is they're both opinions.
Not saying that people attacking him, but "you're a dick" is just as much an opinion as "japanese games suck" even if the attack isn't personal. My view on the matter is that I don't really like the guy but whatever: I support the rights of the people voicing their opinions on the man AS WELL AS his right to say whatever the hell he wants.
The problem comes in when he wants them to stop. Frankly that's on him, he knows he says a lot of stuff that is generally disagreed with and he says it in a less than eloquent manner. If he wants people to stop that's really on him to stop first.
 
D

Delusibeta

Banned
Dave Meltzer said:
How many people has he been an asshole to that haven't provoked him?
Click to expand...

idDTql7MKWSZz.png
 
D

Dave Meltzer

Banned
The difference is I don't see an example of Fish just going "hey, you're a dick" to somebody who hasn't said anything to him. His insults are reserved for people tweeting shit at him. If we want to say that he insulted Japanese game developers with his opinion, OK, I'll let you "have" that one for this argument. Other than that, when has he thrown the first stone at an individual? All he ever does is provoke groups, usually groups who talk shit about him; he doesn't attack individuals out of the blue that I have ever seen. The people who call him a dick with a smug feeling of self satisfaction are the true monsters.
 
B

Burt

Member
Delusibeta said:
idDTql7MKWSZz.png
Click to expand...
Like I said before, if you're offended by that you're self-identifying as someone who was actively rooting for him to fail because he changed his mind over the course of a few years, and he's justified in flaunting his success in the face of irrational, over-the-top hate. If you're not, it clearly wasn't directed at you and youre being thanked for the success on Steam.
 
M

Mistouze

user-friendly man-cashews
Dave Meltzer said:
The industry isn't a person.

Somebody saying "You're a dick" to Phil Fish is an attack

Saying "Japanese games suck" is an opinion.

Who has he insulted without being attacked first?
Click to expand...
How dense can you be? The "japanese games suck" comment was bound to antagonize some persons on the internet, I get what he might have meant at the moment but it was stupid to say it publicly especially in this context. He could have stopped there but didn't and kinda feel sorry for him. Not because people are mean to him but because he can't help but attract bad will.

But you're going to keep ranting about Phil Fish being the target of "gaijins" or any other stupid epitaph you'll come up with because he keeps it real.
 
Z

zroid

Banned
inm8num2 said:
I think he keeps saying dumb things because there's an audience waiting for him to say dumb things. No publicity like bad publicity. I'm not implying that he's a mastermind or he doesn't believe anything he says. I just think the controversy is both parties feeding off each other.
Click to expand...

You may be right, but this would only further cement that he's an asshole. I don't think there's anything wrong with calling him out on that, really. If he's getting free publicity as a result, well, good for him I guess. I don't wish his games to fail just because of his attitude, so it's no skin off my nose.

Anyway, I've stopped giving a crap long ago. I haven't made a conscious effort to boycott his games either; if Fez were released on PSN or the eShop, the two digital platforms I use most regularly, there's a good chance I would buy it.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Dave Meltzer said:
The whole thing started because he dared to speak the truth about the Japanese game industry's increasing irrelevance. He plays the heel because you all made him the heel.

Note; you may not be you
Click to expand...

The whole thing started because he called out a single guy, treated him as an entire country's industry, and told him that everything he makes sucks. All this in front of a ton of other people that had come to hear Phil Fish, amongst others, talk at a panel. It's because he was a complete asshole that this began. While he may have done a half-apology followed up by a more sincere apology toward the person in question, he continued acting out in extremely rude fashions toward many different people over the following months. This is not some isolated incident, and I think the people who dislike him because of his opinion about Japanese game are in the minority compared to the group that just thinks he's a big asshole.

rohlfinator said:
lol at this constant "potential customers" nonsense. He's not obligated to suck up to every last toolbag on the internet just because they might buy his game. Especially when they're publicly flaunting the fact that they're pirating or boycotting it and are clearly not "customers" anyway.
Click to expand...

Not acting like an asshole and going out of your way to antagonize people is "sucking up?" That's one hell of an attitude to have. You'd get along with Phil Fish just fine. Fuck everyone, right?

Plenty of those people could be customers for sure. I think it's pretty obvious that Phil Fish could gain some fans and customers if he just improved his attitude. He obviously created a pretty intriguing game, but he seems to be doing everything he can to ensure that it doesn't get a chance to speak for itself.
 
C

Cerity

Member
Maybe he'll finally realise not all attention is good attention? It's a shitty thing about the internet but it is one thing about the internet. He's got attention for developing an acclaimed game, anything negative he says will generate inproportionate amounts of backlash. He's not alone in this sort of situation, tonnes of minor celebrities fall into the same trap.
 
F

Fantastical

Death Prophet
Dave Meltzer said:
The difference is I don't see an example of Fish just going "hey, you're a dick" to somebody who hasn't said anything to him. His insults are reserved for people tweeting shit at him. If we want to say that he insulted Japanese game developers with his opinion, OK, I'll let you "have" that one for this argument. Other than that, when has he thrown the first stone at an individual? All he ever does is provoke groups, usually groups who talk shit about him; he doesn't attack individuals out of the blue that I have ever seen. The people who call him a dick with a smug feeling of self satisfaction are the true monsters.
Click to expand...

NeoGAF is the worst site on the internet.

You can't attack me because I didn't insult an individual.
 
D

Dave Meltzer

Banned
Mistouze said:
How dense can you be? The "japanese games suck" comment was bound to antagonize some persons on the internet, I get what he might have meant at the moment but it was stupid to say it publicly especially in this context. He could have stopped there but didn't and kinda feel sorry for him. Not because people are mean to him but because he can't help but attract bad will.

But you're going to keep ranting about Phil Fish being the target of "gaijins" or any other stupid epitaph you'll come up with because he keeps it real.
Click to expand...

Please don't call me dense, this isn't the place for personal insults. For you to start off like that perhaps says more about the kind of people who attack Phil Fish than it does about me, a person defending the honour of my hero Phil Fish.
 
T

TurnipFritters

Member
Zefah said:
Plenty of those people could be customers for sure. I think it's pretty obvious that Phil Fish could gain some fans and customers if he just improved his attitude. He obviously created a pretty intriguing game, but he seems to be doing everything he can to ensure that it doesn't get a chance to speak for itself.
Click to expand...

you ever think that maybe he doesn't have any good ideas for new games, and his whole asshole facade is just his sad way of trying to maintain relevance
 
A

aeolist

Banned
Burt said:
Like I said before, if you're offended by that you're self-identifying as someone who was actively rooting for him to fail because he changed his mind over the course of a few years, and he's justified in flaunting his success in the face of irrational, over-the-top hate. If you're not, it clearly wasn't directed at you and youre being thanked for the success on Steam.
Click to expand...

the whole thing reads as really sarcastic and smug to me

"thanks for the money, suckers!"
 
D

Dave Meltzer

Banned
Fantastical said:
NeoGAF is the worst site on the internet.

You can't attack me because I didn't insult an individual.
Click to expand...

See, you saying that doesn't mean I think it would be fair for NeoGAF members to call you an asshole and a dick. If you thought GAF was a shit website than that's fine, but it's not a personal attack on individuals. The way Fish phrased his response to the Japanese games question wasn't ideal, but ultimately his opinion was based on a broad generalisation rather than intentionally targeting that individual.

Now, if you said "Dave Meltzer is the worst person on the internet" than we'd be in trouble and it'd be fistycuffs time.
 
A

aeolist

Banned
Dave Meltzer said:
See, you saying that doesn't mean I think it would be fair for NeoGAF members to call you an asshole and a dick. If you thought GAF was a shit website than that's fine, but it's not a personal attack on individuals. The way Fish phrased his response to the Japanese games question wasn't ideal, but ultimately his opinion was based on a broad generalisation rather than intentionally targeting that individual.

Now, if you said "Dave Meltzer is the worst person on the internet" than we'd be in trouble and it'd be fistycuffs time.
Click to expand...

black people are all lazy criminals

didn't make any personal attacks there, i'm in the clear
 
P

PairOfFilthySocks

Member
vidcons said:
please quit posting until you get better at it
Click to expand...
I'm just saying, coming out with a statement like that is garuanteed to cause a shit-storm. Not only is it clearly complete nonsense to anyone willing to exert just a slight modicum of effort looking at the entire industry, it's the type of comment that would only be made by an industry insider to get a reaction. And a reaction he got. If Fish is genuinely that clueless about the state of Japanese games, then perhaps he would do well to learn from this mistake and broaden his gaming horizons. Alas, his hankering for a good ol persecution complex makes me think a reaction was all he wanted in the first place, only it got a bit too much for him to handle.
 
S

Solid Samus

Banned
aeolist said:
the whole thing reads as really sarcastic and smug to me

"thanks for the money, suckers!"
Click to expand...

if that's how you're reading that then you should work on your comprehension

if anything its more like 'yeah you boycotters are totally having an effect on my sales'

sarcastic and smug maybe but nothing at all like the phrase you put in quotes there
 
D

Dave Meltzer

Banned
aeolist said:
black people are all lazy criminals

didn't make any personal attacks there, i'm in the clear
Click to expand...

I think most people would understand there's a bit of a difference between saying the video games from a country are poor and every person of a certain race has a negative human trait. I get your point though. Ultimately I just don't think there's much in the language he uses for an individual person to get offended by unless they're predispositioned to want to be offended.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
TurnipFritters said:
you ever think that maybe he doesn't have any good ideas for new games, and his whole asshole facade is just his sad way of trying to maintain relevance
Click to expand...

That'd be a surprise. It's obvious that he's very creative. It's possible that he used up everything he had with Fez, but in my experience, creative people continually get new ideas.
 
G

GiantBreadbug

Member
Dave Meltzer said:
I think most people would understand there's a bit of a difference between saying the video games from a country are poor and every person of a certain race has a negative human trait. I get your point though. Ultimately I just don't think there's much in the language he uses for an individual person to get offended by unless they're predispositioned to want to be offended.
Click to expand...

I think there is. He said what he said, and the way he said it, to get laughs in a room full of people (and he did).

I'm not offended, but I sure as shit would be if I were a Japanese game developer.

The man is just an ass. I don't think that people constantly harassing him is okay at all, but he has brought it upon himself. When I see him saying something dickish, I just think, "Oh, Fish being a jerk again." I don't hop on Twitter and go out and talk shit about him. I just think he's obnoxious, and that's pretty much it.
 
A

aeolist

Banned
Dave Meltzer said:
I think most people would understand there's a bit of a difference between saying the video games from a country are poor and every person of a certain race has a negative human trait. I get your point though. Ultimately I just don't think there's much in the language he uses for an individual person to get offended by unless they're predispositioned to want to be offended.
Click to expand...

I think any kind of overly broad generalizations like that can easily be offensive to anyone with a brain. I bet he doesn't know much about whatever kind of Japanese indie scene is out there (I sure as hell don't) so why say all Japanese games suck? It's more productive and correct to say "well I'm not totally familiar with everything that comes out of Japan but the major publishers all suck these days, you indies need to be doing X Y and Z to make yourselves more visible and economically viable".

Anyway I didn't get super offended by that because it was obviously just a case of someone asking a nuanced question to a guy not equipped to provide any kind of socially sensitive or informed answer. I did get offended when he treated his customers like shit with the patch situation and when he deliberately trolled PC gamers.

Really it's the patch thing that makes me sure I'll not ever be buying his games, I don't want to support a company that doesn't stand by its products.
 
D

DICKS AHOY

Banned
Dave Meltzer said:
I think most people would understand there's a bit of a difference between saying the video games from a country are poor and every person of a certain race has a negative human trait. I get your point though. Ultimately I just don't think there's much in the language he uses for an individual person to get offended by unless they're predispositioned to want to be offended.
Click to expand...
The context he said it in was still pretty bad though. I mean, even though it wasn't entirely directed at the developer asking the original question, "your games just suck" is still something of a personal attack, even if unintended.
 
C

Codeblue

Member
Burt said:
Like I said before, if you're offended by that you're self-identifying as someone who was actively rooting for him to fail because he changed his mind over the course of a few years, and he's justified in flaunting his success in the face of irrational, over-the-top hate. If you're not, it clearly wasn't directed at you and youre being thanked for the success on Steam.
Click to expand...

Right. Mission success, he got to the people he was trying to get at. Now he's complaining about it.

He either needs to stop caring or stop engaging these people.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Dave Meltzer said:
The industry isn't a person.

Somebody saying "You're a dick" to Phil Fish is an attack

Saying "Japanese games suck" is an opinion.

Who has he insulted without being attacked first?
Click to expand...

Well, he did phrase it as, "your games just suck." obviously meaning Japanese games as a whole, but still directing it to the individual who asked the question.

Either way, I think it would take some pretty deft mental gymnastics to not interpret that as an insult.
 
R

rohlfinator

Member
Zefah said:
Not acting like an asshole and going out of your way to antagonize people is "sucking up?" That's one hell of an attitude to have. You'd get along with Phil Fish just fine. Fuck everyone, right?

Plenty of those people could be customers for sure. I think it's pretty obvious that Phil Fish could gain some fans and customers if he just improved his attitude. He obviously created a pretty intriguing game, but he seems to be doing everything he can to ensure that it doesn't get a chance to speak for itself.
Click to expand...

If you feel antagonized by him trash-talking self-proclaimed boycotters then I doubt you were in the market for his game in the first place.

Could he be more tactful? Sure, no doubt. But that's his prerogative. The game's been pretty successful and he clearly doesn't care about the few sales he's lost.

He is being given about 100x more attention than he deserves. It's been over a year, this whole thing is just embarrassing at this point.
 
V

Vane_MagicCity

Banned
"boycott harder nerds"
Click to expand...
I don't even consider myself a nerd but I do consider this to be unprofessional. I am trying to imagine any other developer acting like this. What if Lost Odyssey was going to be released on Steam and Hironobu Sakaguchi did something like this?

Pretty hard to imagine, isn't it?
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
rohlfinator said:
If you feel antagonized by him trash-talking self-proclaimed boycotters then I doubt you were in the market for his game in the first place.

Could he be more tactful? Sure, no doubt. But that's his prerogative. The game's been pretty successful and he clearly doesn't care about the few sales he's lost.

He is being given about 100x more attention than he deserves. It's been over a year, this whole thing is just embarrassing at this point.
Click to expand...

Funny that you'd say that. While I wouldn't say I'm "boycotting" the game (that makes it sound more significant than it is), I'm definitely in the group of people who were interested in the game initially but got completely turned off by Phil Fish's words and actions. I just don't want to support a guy who carries on like that.
 
F

faridmon

Member
Wow, this thread is still up. Come on guys just move on. At this point, if you hate the dude, then you hate him, if not, then this will not change your mind.

I certainly think Japanese game have been rubbish in general compared to previous genrations, but I wouldn't say they all rubbish.
 
C

Codeblue

Member
rohlfinator said:
If you feel antagonized by him trash-talking self-proclaimed boycotters then I doubt you were in the market for his game in the first place.

Could he be more tactful? Sure, no doubt. But that's his prerogative. The game's been pretty successful and he clearly doesn't care about the few sales he's lost.

He is being given about 100x more attention than he deserves. It's been over a year, this whole thing is just embarrassing at this point.
Click to expand...

But he's totally seeking this attention (or somehow doesn't realize that prodding people will result in attention) by trying to antagonize the dicks who would brag about pirating someone's hard work.
 
D

Dave Meltzer

Banned
Vane_MagicCity said:
I don't even consider myself a nerd but I do consider this to be unprofessional. I am trying to imagine any other developer acting like this. What if Lost Odyssey was going to be released on Steam and Hironobu Sakaguchi did something like this?

Pretty hard to imagine, isn't it?
Click to expand...

Is that a good thing?

Do we want all video games to be made by mindless PR drones?
 
S

spindoctor

Member
Poor Phil Fish. It seems he is just now realizing that the Internet is a bigger asshole than he can ever hope to be.

He will forever be the asshole that made Fez.
 
S

Starfish Hero

Member
faridmon said:
Wow, this thread is still up. Come on guys just move on. At this point, if you hate the dude, then you hate him, if not, then this will not change your mind.

I certainly think Japanese game have been rubbish in general compared to previous genrations, but I wouldn't say they all rubbish.
Click to expand...

This has long since moved on from the "japanese games suck" comment. This thread gets revived every time Fish makes an ass of himself in public.
 
F

faridmon

Member
Starfish Hero said:
This has long since moved on from the "japanese games suck" comment. This thread gets revived every time Fish makes an ass of himself in public.
Click to expand...

Haha, is he still going on being bonkers? Man, this dude is something else altogether
I liked him and his opinions when he was on Giantbomb
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Dave Meltzer said:
Is that a good thing?

Do we want all video games to be made by mindless PR drones?
Click to expand...

Do you really think those are the options? You either go troll people on a Steam forum or you're a mindless PR drone?
 
F

Fivefold

Banned
This begs the question: is it an insult if it's true?

Because japanese games pretty much suck anyway.

He was a bit of an ass stating it but being an ass is cool, it gives you more legitimancy.
 
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