Master Milk
Member
The FGC? Elaborate.
Mike Z managed to get his original creation out the door. Would that not count?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Fighting Games Weekly | November 26 - December 2nd | I got a Ph.D. in Mahvel Theory
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
The FGC? Elaborate.
Mike Z managed to get his original creation out the door. Would that not count?
I fucking love you BeefBro. :lol
QuikZilver
Member
This
They matter in terms of supporting a tournament scene and providing free advertising. But they don't matter much beyond that, in terms of the economics of selling more games. And that's where the issue lies. The local scenes are awesome, but they have to be community-supported because they're economic losers. It's not like M:TG, where the structure of local tournaments results in more money for the shop than just entry fees.
toddhunter
Member
Don't know, what was it?
What I mean is there is all this talent around artistically and obviously with knowledge or opinions on what would make a great fighting game.
Whilst not easy, a fighting game is not exactly a rpg in scope. I've programmed simple ones myself in the past.
Make a f2p fighting game that the community updates via an elected panel. Build it around tournament play and integrate with twitch or challonge etc, all the things that the major pubs will never do.
Seriously though, I doubt there are many people on these forums who have been involved with fighting games long enough or put enough time into multiple games to make a call over what game is the best ever.
SSF4 is my personal favorite fighting game of all time, but I realize that I am nowhere near qualified enough to say its the best, but I have played most of the "main" fighting games from the past 20 years.
SSF4 is my personal favorite fighting game of all time, but I realize that I am nowhere near qualified enough to say its the best, but I have played most of the "main" fighting games from the past 20 years.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
How does that work out for the shop owners? They charge more for entry fees? Higher entry fees are more accepted?
Just curious. Sounds interesting.
Booster Pack and Singles Sales. StarCityGames.com runs a tournament series across the country with a 10K "Legacy" tournament on the 2nd day. The sunday tournament actually loses money in most cities, but they make up more than enough money through selling cards to make it worth it as a loss leader.
This is why I'm very much a fan of lots and lots of expansions/extra colors/extra costumes as DLC- it helps get more money to the developers which in turn helps convince them to make more fun games.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
I'm ignorant to MTG, so forgive me.
So people go to these tournies. They have their decks for play already for play? But what usually happens is the community just tends to buy stuff to have it or add to the collection at tournaments?
Would they be buying booster packs or singles for use for play on that day that they were missing?
Or are special cards made for this tournament series that they sell?
Legacy's obnoxious in that many of the cards in the format are protected by an ill-advised decision not to reprint them based on them accidentally crashing the market with a reprint set early on in the game's lifespan. That means many of the "staple" cards of the format are relatively rare, often stupidly expensive, and usually have a pretty hefty margin when sold to players trying to complete their decks the day of the tournament.
For instance, I played the invitational in Atlanta and had to borrow an obnoxiously high $ value of cards (I think about 1K) to make the deck I wanted to for the Legacy half of the tournament. And I still spent about $30 in store credit on various singles there to finish out the deck. There's not really a good way for local venues to make up the $ here. Arcades have been dying out slowly, and I think getting places like Next Level, that mix/match the genres, is a great way to piggyback on the TCG boom of the last few years and provide local players a safe gathering home.
Master Milk
Member
Even if not an RPG is scope, a fully developed game is still a massive undertaking. Artistic talent is nice, but what is most needed to make a game is the technical skill to actually make the game. Meaning, someone able and willing to write the code for it.
For the type of thing you're suggesting, I don't think anyone would want to bother. It likely wouldn't be worth the effort, financially and competitively.
Oh, and while it's not out yet, I think I heard way back when they started that a lot of the people working on the MLP fighter have lots of experience with them. Whether that means they'd be included in the FGC or not is anyone's guess.
I don't think Moe is inherently gross, though this argument has been brought up a couple of times. It's a euphoric response to certain traits or fictional characters.
Super Mario Kart
Killer Instinct
Twinkle Star Sprites
Melee
Tetris Attack
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Interesting. I see their LA event takes up the whole Convention Center. Damn. I might check it out just to see it.
It's the LA Invitational. Essentially its their 4th "pro tour" of the year. However, its the only West Coast event, which is likely why they've gotten so much space. I'm qualified but I don't have the cash to blow to fly cross-country right now.
toddhunter
Member
It depends on your perspective. Making a game engine to me is easy, drawing something that looks good is impossible.
Would people spend the time? I don't see why not. There are massive amounts of time spent on projects around the place already.
If there was a will, I believe the community could find a way.
Eight Diagram Bat Fighter
Banned
Skull Girls. Or are you talking doing it for an insanely low price and completely from scratch?
The problem is the FGC community doesn't support other games worthy of supporting. And sometimes the FGC doesn't know what they want. Look, when SF4 came, people clamored about balance and all characters being viable, when Marvel came out, people wanted a good ol' fashioned fighting game... You know, the one that takes actual skills... When SFxT came, people want to stop the bad practice of DLC....
Now, TTT2 came out, the game where characters and stages were free, the game is fun to watch and play, it's so balanced, and it actually takes skill to win, plus crazy customization options, pretty good netcode and stat tracking to boot. Yet people still shouts "when's mahvel"? Look, even this thread talks marvel all the time when Tekken makes golden moments like this.
It's not even about Marvel being the best, cause it's clearly not (even when comparing to other Marvel or even 2D games). It's all about the people always wanting to put the spotlight on Marvel. Which is unfair.
Meh, UMvC3 is silly right now (constant barrage of nigh-unreadable 50/50 mixups + virtually any hit leading to a dead character = HURRRRRR), but the game is still pretty young, so I'm willing to admit that I may yet do a complete reversal on it. I do think that the better player wins most of the time, but I also think that right now inferior players win more often than people are willing to admit.
VF4:Evo is the best fighting game ever. There will be no further discussion on this.
VF4:Evo is the best fighting game ever. There will be no further discussion on this.
toddhunter
Member
From scratch unless somebody was nice enough to license an engine. Heck everybody chip in a dollar and buy the skullgirls code.
Then get everybody to design characters, contribute to the art, whatever.
Crazy stuff? Why would anybody spend all that time for nothing? Well why does Spooky stream or TO run their events?
I'm concerned that at any time Capcom could release SF5 with worse dlc then sfxt or stop making fighting games at all.
I believe it could be done and with say Valle and Yipes leading the charge you know it would get played.
Just throwing it out there for discussion anyway.
Actual younger girls do have eyepatches IRL in Japan so creepy dudes are into it because it's associated with junior high and high school girls. My theory is most girls that are wearing the eyepatches have recently gotten the double-eyelid fold surgery so that their eyes look more western. I think it's fucking stupid though.
As for why marvel is so good (to me personally, at least), I think it's the team creation aspect that really sets it apart. Making a team is like making your deck in MTG or something along those lines. That you could be perhaps the only person on earth playing your chosen team is, for whatever reason, really exciting. Because there are so many possible viable teams, as long as you're not some douche zero may cry player
, the onus is on YOU to figure things out and explore your team's possibilites. No other fighting game offers this opportunity or forces the responsibility of discovery so squarely upon each and every player's shoulders. Also Dr. Doom puts people in blenders, which is neat.
As for why marvel is so good (to me personally, at least), I think it's the team creation aspect that really sets it apart. Making a team is like making your deck in MTG or something along those lines. That you could be perhaps the only person on earth playing your chosen team is, for whatever reason, really exciting. Because there are so many possible viable teams, as long as you're not some douche zero may cry player
kidding, mostly!
"God's Beard!"
Member
Vanilla VF4 > EVO. Come at me.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Beardo this is all your fault.
Master Milk
Member
Then, going back to your original question, I'll say yes, citing Mike Z's game.
Going forward, I don't see your particular example happening, but my opinion isn't worth much compared to anyone else's.
I think the best bet in seeing it, is if you do it yourself. Like you said, if there's a will the community could get it done, but, I think you're the only one with the will right now. Most are actually happy playing Capcom games.
DEATH;44778645 said:
There's nothing unfair about a popular game getting talked about constantly. Marvel is likely the most popular game in the NA FGC at the moment, so of course it's going to be talked about a lot.
Eight Diagram Bat Fighter
Banned
You just described Mugen.
Karsticles
Member
I only have time in my life for one fighting game. Marvel has a lot of things that no other game besides Skullgirls has, so I plan to stick to it. If something else comes along with all of its attributes and fewer bad points, I'll switch it up. I'm not going to buy games I'm not going to play, I'm not going to play games I don't like, and I know what kinds of games I like.DEATH™;44778645 said:
I'm all about the business practices of Namco. But I play games because they're fun, not because I want to support a certain kind of business practice. That's not to say business practices don't factor in, but they weigh rather lightly for me. As long as Capcom keeps making the games I like to play, I'll keep buying them. For my tastes (and let's just leave it at that), there's nothing else anyone else is producing like it on the market.
This is pretty much scrub thinking in the world of fighting game popularity. If you want other games to have more time in the spotlight, then make it happen.
The definition I've always heard is that the character has the ability to give you protective feelings over her.
The limiting factor is always programming skills, though, not artistic ability or ideas. It would be a lot of us saying how it should be, and a few people making it happen. Then, there would be endless, endless arguments about the details. What kinds of mobility options does the game have? Does it allow teams? How can the teammates interact? Blabity-blah-blah. It would never come to any kind of conclusion.
DEATH;44778645 said:
There's nothing unfair about putting the spotlight on the most popular game (in the US) and I'm saying this as a SFIV fan. You shouldn't take the "when's mahvel" so seriously, it's just a troll act by stream monsters (they shout it during every game) and it's just a joke really. People aren't hating on Tekken (I've yet to read someone saying bad things about TTT2 and Harada's team effort, personal preferences aside), it's just not as popular.
And you shouldn't generalize so much about the FGC, you can't expect people to support every fighting games just for the sake of supporting them, the majority of people just sticks with what they like most (to watch or to play), this is valid for everything and not only FGC.
Marvel also gets talked about a lot because:
a) Tiers are constantly debated and can shift fairly dramatically at any given moment.
b) The current 'best player' also shifts constantly. From vanilla up until now, there have been moments were Justin, Combofiend, Viscant, Flocker, Filipino Champ, Yipes, and ChrisG (probably forgetting some names here) have been considered the best.
a) Tiers are constantly debated and can shift fairly dramatically at any given moment.
b) The current 'best player' also shifts constantly. From vanilla up until now, there have been moments were Justin, Combofiend, Viscant, Flocker, Filipino Champ, Yipes, and ChrisG (probably forgetting some names here) have been considered the best.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Whoa, there are really girls with eye patches in japan? Hehe.
I think if fighting game development put their games on PC with more open mod tools, something better homemade could come about.
I doubt that will happen though.
I think if fighting game development put their games on PC with more open mod tools, something better homemade could come about.
I doubt that will happen though.
As someone who started with Tekken and then migrated to Capcom games, Tekken is quite different from Marvel but some of the fundamentals I picked from Tekken actually transferred well into Marvel.
Yeah there is a shit ton of characters in Tekken but a lot of characters play similarly and there are a lot of overlapping normals and vanilla moves. Also as far as basic tools and movement go, the characters are very similar (all characters can run, have same wake up options, parry option etc). The playstyles in a game like Marvel are extremely different and so are the base tools per character. You have a character like Morrigan who can fly cancel her air specials... but can't ground dash while you have a character like Vergil who has no air dash but very fast ground dash. There are hardly character playstyle archetypes in Tekken, like you can't say one character is a "zoner" while the other is "rushdown"... there is no real distinction like that. Yeah there are characters who are more grapple or style heavy than others but it's not nearly as prominent as the 2D games.
In Tekken there are rarely terrible/lop sided match ups, there are just characters who are slightly better than others (ie 5-5, 6-4 match ups). If you are good with your character and have good fundamentals/reactions you are not limited in a match and can always make something happen (there is no block damage either so it's all a matter of making the reads and spacing yourself). You also don't have to deal with the standard bull shit of a Capcom game mainly ambiguous cross ups (no real right/lefts in Tekken, it's all high/low mix ups with throws). I still have a hard time blocking right/lefts in Marvel. Also in Tekken you default to blocking high and reacting to lows, in Capcom it's the exact opposite. Not a big deal though.
The similarities between Marvel and Tekken are that when you get hit by a move capable of continuing a combo (a launcher, bounce or some sorts of sweeps) it's going to hurt and the combo is going to be long. Further more after the combo has ended it is usually going to put you in a bad situation where you have to guess on your wake up. This can end rounds quick... hence the standard of 3/5 rounds in Tekken. I haven't played TTT2 much but that's how it was in Tekken 5 at least. The next similarity is the movement. Now granted Tekken does not have any sort of aerial movement but you need to be up to snuff with your ground movement. Side stepping, wave dashing, back dashing... you are constantly weaving in and out. Similar thing in Marvel just replace side stepping with air dashing. You always want to be in a good position and avoid bad situation in both games because if you are in a bad situation you have to guess a mix up and if you guess wrong it's going to hurt. The roster sizes in both games are also really huge now so you are always bound to find at least a couple of characters you want to play/try out.
Even with the tag mechanic in Tekken, there isn't much synergy among pairs where you have to match up character tools with character requirements. You essentially are able to pick 2 characters that you like or are good with. I played Jin and Heihachi in TTT with the occasional Jun thrown in. It just happened that those characters had some synergy gimmicks attached to them but I didn't use it a lot. Marvel on the other hand you have to think really hard and really invest in the whole aspect of team synergy. You don't just pick 3 characters you are good with, pick whatever assists and put them in the order of your liking, chances are that team is going to be ass. The reason why the Marvel OT is still going very strong is because people are constantly theory crafting new teams with new combinations. That is the appeal to Marvel, the whole 3 on 3 team play is what draws many to Marvel and it's the same thing that draws people to games like LoL and DOTA. Because the combinations are so vast you can't prepare for particular match ups and much of your experience/training comes from within the match itself. That's why I laugh at the idea of 2/3 Marvel, I mean that's not nearly enough time to scope out the tech on the opposition's team. Hell the first to five exhibition in the RayRay vs Moonz match, even that was not enough to show all the tech that Moonz had on the team.
Truth be told, if MVC3 was just a 1 on 1 game or a simple 3 on 3 tag game (no assists, DHCs, TACs, THCs, CCs, X factor etc) it would be ass. Too many bad match ups in the game but the team aspect severely cuts down on the match up problems (Haggar vs Magneto is on paper very bad for Haggar but Haggar with just a projectile assist can beat Magneto convincingly and consistently). I am surprised there aren't many other games like this, I mean Skullgirls sort of tried it but it just didn't had the vast number of characters needed to make a game like this work. If everyone is using like 5-6 combination of teams in a game like that... it's not much better than playing a normal fighting game with 5 top characters and the rest being ass.
Yeah there is a shit ton of characters in Tekken but a lot of characters play similarly and there are a lot of overlapping normals and vanilla moves. Also as far as basic tools and movement go, the characters are very similar (all characters can run, have same wake up options, parry option etc). The playstyles in a game like Marvel are extremely different and so are the base tools per character. You have a character like Morrigan who can fly cancel her air specials... but can't ground dash while you have a character like Vergil who has no air dash but very fast ground dash. There are hardly character playstyle archetypes in Tekken, like you can't say one character is a "zoner" while the other is "rushdown"... there is no real distinction like that. Yeah there are characters who are more grapple or style heavy than others but it's not nearly as prominent as the 2D games.
In Tekken there are rarely terrible/lop sided match ups, there are just characters who are slightly better than others (ie 5-5, 6-4 match ups). If you are good with your character and have good fundamentals/reactions you are not limited in a match and can always make something happen (there is no block damage either so it's all a matter of making the reads and spacing yourself). You also don't have to deal with the standard bull shit of a Capcom game mainly ambiguous cross ups (no real right/lefts in Tekken, it's all high/low mix ups with throws). I still have a hard time blocking right/lefts in Marvel. Also in Tekken you default to blocking high and reacting to lows, in Capcom it's the exact opposite. Not a big deal though.
The similarities between Marvel and Tekken are that when you get hit by a move capable of continuing a combo (a launcher, bounce or some sorts of sweeps) it's going to hurt and the combo is going to be long. Further more after the combo has ended it is usually going to put you in a bad situation where you have to guess on your wake up. This can end rounds quick... hence the standard of 3/5 rounds in Tekken. I haven't played TTT2 much but that's how it was in Tekken 5 at least. The next similarity is the movement. Now granted Tekken does not have any sort of aerial movement but you need to be up to snuff with your ground movement. Side stepping, wave dashing, back dashing... you are constantly weaving in and out. Similar thing in Marvel just replace side stepping with air dashing. You always want to be in a good position and avoid bad situation in both games because if you are in a bad situation you have to guess a mix up and if you guess wrong it's going to hurt. The roster sizes in both games are also really huge now so you are always bound to find at least a couple of characters you want to play/try out.
Even with the tag mechanic in Tekken, there isn't much synergy among pairs where you have to match up character tools with character requirements. You essentially are able to pick 2 characters that you like or are good with. I played Jin and Heihachi in TTT with the occasional Jun thrown in. It just happened that those characters had some synergy gimmicks attached to them but I didn't use it a lot. Marvel on the other hand you have to think really hard and really invest in the whole aspect of team synergy. You don't just pick 3 characters you are good with, pick whatever assists and put them in the order of your liking, chances are that team is going to be ass. The reason why the Marvel OT is still going very strong is because people are constantly theory crafting new teams with new combinations. That is the appeal to Marvel, the whole 3 on 3 team play is what draws many to Marvel and it's the same thing that draws people to games like LoL and DOTA. Because the combinations are so vast you can't prepare for particular match ups and much of your experience/training comes from within the match itself. That's why I laugh at the idea of 2/3 Marvel, I mean that's not nearly enough time to scope out the tech on the opposition's team. Hell the first to five exhibition in the RayRay vs Moonz match, even that was not enough to show all the tech that Moonz had on the team.
Truth be told, if MVC3 was just a 1 on 1 game or a simple 3 on 3 tag game (no assists, DHCs, TACs, THCs, CCs, X factor etc) it would be ass. Too many bad match ups in the game but the team aspect severely cuts down on the match up problems (Haggar vs Magneto is on paper very bad for Haggar but Haggar with just a projectile assist can beat Magneto convincingly and consistently). I am surprised there aren't many other games like this, I mean Skullgirls sort of tried it but it just didn't had the vast number of characters needed to make a game like this work. If everyone is using like 5-6 combination of teams in a game like that... it's not much better than playing a normal fighting game with 5 top characters and the rest being ass.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Karsticles
Member
Fantastic post, Dahbomb.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Dabomb, that's why some of people say 3d games feel more player vs player as opposed character vs character.
toddhunter
Member
The point is all those arguments already happen, like in this thread. What we end up with is ten different games and relatively small or fractured communities.
Imagine SF4 or marvel was not made. What would everybody be playing now? Do we really want to be sitting around waiting for Capcom to get it right? I love their good games, but I don't have all that much faith left.
I could program a fighting game but nobody would care. I don't see it in the too hard basket if everybody was onboard.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Lol.
This isn't always true. Historically the SoulCalibur series has had quite a few lopsided matchups. In SCV, for example, Maxi has a very rough time against almost the entire top tier IMO.
There are some tough matchups in VF5:FS as well, but nothing that can't be remedied by solid, smart play.
Karsticles
Member
I would be playing non-fighting games, personally. I need the creative team aspect to retain my interest and keep away from the staleness of fighting the same characters over and over. I get where you're coming from, but I just have a hard time seeing it going anywhere. The exact things I love about Marvel are what many people hate about it. So where would that leave us?
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Nothing is 100% of course across the board. Just a general thought process I have heard at gatherings through the years and on message boards. Mostly at soul calibur related. I think sc5 is really good at this.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Karsticles
Member
Shaowebb made these in Scribblenauts, and I think they're too badass not to share:
Killa Sasa
Member
You guys are also forgetting that there are literally decades of character history when it comes to Marvel -- much bigger character connections there that make it popular. Mainline comic properties have huge brand recognition and will draw in people who might not usually dabble with fighters because "hey, I know who Iron Man is." They cross media channels constantly and have basically been the biggest thing in movies for the past decade.
If Capcom (or hell, any company) ever got both the Marvel and DC or Shounen Jump license at the same time to make a fighting game, NOTHING ELSE WOULD BE TALKED ABOUT EVER.
Just one of those things that come with the territory. Doesn't make TTT2 any less of a great game.
Also, Beef plz shut down the studio
If Capcom (or hell, any company) ever got both the Marvel and DC or Shounen Jump license at the same time to make a fighting game, NOTHING ELSE WOULD BE TALKED ABOUT EVER.
Just one of those things that come with the territory. Doesn't make TTT2 any less of a great game.
Also, Beef plz shut down the studio
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Breast milk
you make my daaayaaaa
you make my daaayaaaa
My problem with "when's mahvel" is when streams like Big Two are forced to stream Marvel while TTT2 bracket is still on schedule and we miss gold sets on the early parts of the brackets...
But Tekken IS fun...
But unlike UMVC3, Tekken actually takes some skills to win. Yes I said it...
Tekken doesn't have a comeback mechanic, even netsu rage takes skill to take advantage of and can be removed by the opponent and take advantage of especially when tagging.
Tekken actually requires execution skills. BDC, JF moves, EWGFs, and stuff dwarfs stuff that many people say "hard" in Marvel 3. Wins in Tekken are earned.
One char in Tekken has more moves than even Dante, it's not even funny, the game's control and freedom is outmatched...
You know why UMVC3 is popular here in America? People said it here in the thread... It's an instant gratification game. If this kind of game mindset/design is being promoted now, I'm afraid for the future for fighting games, or games in general...
Professor Beef
Banned
Lightning loops? You think that's what they're doing in the hood, playboy?
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
What do you expect from the stream chat? Intelligent discussion?