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[encephalon]

more work? you mean less work..

No,I mean more work. The benefit of prerendered backgrounds is more detail/better graphics than the console can offer, which in turn requires more work. They still have to render it all in 3d, only now it has to be more sophisticated and requires them to deal with the limitations of static camera angles.

The reason why the resident evil remake was feasible is because the game is small and confined to a handful of locations.

 

[Zukuu]

No,I mean more work. The benefit of prerendered backgrounds is more detail/better graphics than the console can offer, which in turn requires more work.

The reason why the resident evil remake was feasible is because the game is small and confined to a handful of locations.

I'm not sure. You only have to draw / model for a fixed perspective. In a 3D enviroment, you have to fully design the entire objects. It also needs a lot more work on the engine part and takes more time fine tuning the performance.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

No,I mean more work. The benefit of prerendered backgrounds is more detail/better graphics than the console can offer, which in turn requires more work.

The reason why the resident evil remake was feasible is because the game is small and confined to a handful of locations.

The fixed camera angle of a pre-rendered background helps a lot, though. You don't have to worry as much about performance and optimization. You don't have create buildings and environment outside the explorable area in case the camera would point there. Any minor tweaks could just be painted over.

 

[Galactic Barret]

I think it's fair to compare the easiest difficulty of one game to the easiest difficulty of another. But you're right; I should have said that and I apologize.

This is not the point I was making, however. My point is what people perceive as "difficult" is different. And trying to assert your own sense of difficulty to somebody else is pointless. Even now with the 1 debate. "The weapon system is easy to break!" "But Hill Gigas". You're just using arbitrary elements from your own experience.

I could say "7 is easy because I could grind to 99 and cheese every fights". Then somebody else would say "but grinding is hard because it's boring". Then somebody else "grinding is the easiest thing ever".

It's easy if you are prepared with this and this skill. It's difficult when you're underleveled. If you reacted accordingly you'd never get hit. Etc etc. It's all arbitrary.

The only thing I could do is to convey my own experience and leave it at that.

I see your point and understand.

A Hill Gigas, though, is a normal encounter in the game and a necessary enemy to overcome to complete the game. He said FFII's weapon system was "easy to break" (as in, exploiting the game/not playing it as it was meant to be played). Fair enough, what about FFI, I countered with. They exist in both games as normal enemies. Not just my experience, anyone who has played that game (which he said he did).

I took issue with your one-handed remark. Even as hyperbole, it was bull. If you want to say a game is easy/difficult, fine. Prepare to defend that opinion, especially with a comment like that.

But I understand. Its an RPG, it could be played many kinds of ways.

 

[StaticWorld]

Alot talk about pre-rendered background but i can't see how it would work in current 3D games with physically based rendering/lighting.

Unless the pre-rendered backgrounds are for like for the skyboxes where they are really far away, shadow generation would be a problem for example where the shadows would be casted on the 3D plane that the pre-rendered background texture would be drawn on.

 

[Zukuu]

Alot talk about pre-rendered background but i can't see how it would work in current 3D games with physically based rendering/lighting.

Unless the pre-rendered backgrounds are for like for the skyboxes where they are really far away, shadow generation would be a problem for example where the shadows would be casted on the 3D plane that the pre-rendered background texture would be drawn on.

REmake looks gorgeous in most areas.

Lost Odyssey has also a nice art style:

 

[Dark_castle]

REmake looks gorgeous in most areas.

Lost Odyssey has also a nice art style:

Yeah, I really like that Lost Odyssey went with prerendered background. I find myself yearning for detailed, high-res prerendered background nowadays, even if they're not very relevant anymore.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

I took issue with your one-handed remark. Even as hyperbole, it was bull. If you want to say a game is easy/difficult, fine. Prepare to defend that opinion, especially with a comment like that.

But I understand. Its an RPG, it could be played many kinds of ways.

I don't know what to tell you. I honestly went through a great many turn-based RPG combat while reading a book. It's not meant to be a slight but now I regret bringing that up; I'm sorry.

 

[Grzi]

Wait, people are seriously hoping for pre-rendered backgrounds and/or turn based combat? lmao

 

[enigmatic_alex44]

Yeah, I really like that Lost Odyssey went with prerendered background. I find myself yearning for detailed, high-res prerendered background nowadays, even if they're not very relevant anymore.

Um, what? Lost Odyssey was fully 3D but used fixed camera angles. The backgrounds were not prerendered.

Baten Kaitos and Baten Kaitos Origins on Gamecube used prerendered backgrounds which were a more detailed version of what FF7 was.

I want FF7 Remake to go with 3D graphics so it's "future proof" for later console ports (PS5/PS6) and such and doesn't end up with low-res backgrounds that are hard to look at years later like the PS1 FFs.

 

[paragonpro]

Wait, people are seriously hoping for pre-rendered backgrounds and/or turn based combat? lmao

Yeah for turn based, not sure about pre rendered though, but this game should stick with turn based combat

 

[encephalon]

I'm not sure. You only have to draw / model for a fixed perspective. In a 3D enviroment, you have to fully design the entire objects. It also needs a lot more work on the engine part and takes more time fine tuning the performance.

You're still going to model for other perspectives in case something needs to change, you need it for a cutscene, etc etc.

 

[Dark_castle]

Um, what? Lost Odyssey was fully 3D but used fixed camera angles. The backgrounds were not prerendered.

Baten Kaitos and Baten Kaitos Origins on Gamecube used prerendered backgrounds which were a more detailed version of what FF7 was.

I want FF7 Remake to go with 3D graphics so it's "future proof" for later console ports (PS5/PS6) and such and doesn't end up with low-res backgrounds that are hard to look at years later like the PS1 FFs.

Ah you're right. But the static camera kinda give a pre-rendered feel to it, as if each screen is carefully hand-crafted.

 

[poncle]

If FF7R is fully 3D, I hope they add an option to automatically set the camera angle in places similar to how FF7 did it.
A lot of the personality in the scenes are in the way they are framed. Such as the low angle on Sephiroth reading the books during the basement scene

Just realized how bad a fully 3D world would be for FF7.

Think about FF13. That game has some amazing environments, and the world is basically a straight corridor, yet if you don't stop and move the camera around by yourself, you will miss most of the cool environments and just stand there staring at your character and the floor. Or, even worse, staring at the mini-map.
Not to mention that a fully 3D world encourages assets recycling and repetition.

Unfortunately they'll most likely not even think about a static camera, and just throw in your average 3D world and a bunch of slow, badly directed cut-scenes.

 

[Icyflamez96]

I didn't say FFVII's battle system was perfect. And besides, the issue you brought up is tied to the game's (lack of) difficulty, not quite the system design itself. If regular encounters and boss fights were made more challenging so that using smart materia combination and exploiting enemy weaknesses are essential to win, your issue would have been a non-issue.

XIII combat failed for me wasn't because it's not challenging, or challenging, it doesn't matter. What matters is the basic decision making process was made trivial because computer can decide for you effectively for a huge chunk of your game. Turn-based combat with AI allies sucks, deeply. It's already getting unacceptable for action rpg these days without some sort of gambit system, much less turn-based.

Not really, the pace of the battles in that system are just slow and boring to me either way. I felt a lot more engaged playing FFXIII's system.

Pressing auto battle feels just like pressing attack to me.

I personally found FFXIII's system to be a lot more fun even with it's obvious shortcomings. I think it'd be great if they could somehow take the core of that system and expand/alter/evolve it into something a lot better.

 

[Two Words]

I think isometric camera angles in cities and such would be a good ideas I doubt they are going to make Midgar feel like a fully realized 3D space with full camera movement.

 

[Skilletor]

Not really, the pace of the battles in that system are just slow and boring to me either way. I felt a lot more engaged playing FFXIII's system.

Pressing auto battle feels just like pressing attack to me.

I personally found FFXIII's system to be a lot more fun even with it's obvious shortcomings. I think it'd be great if they could somehow take the core of that system and expand/alter/evolve it into something a lot better.

By the time lightning is done with an autoattack string in FF13, at least two people have gone in FF7. That's at the beginning of the game with 3 AP. FF7 is a lot faster than 13. You might think it's not because Lightning and co are moving around a lot more, but all the added flourishes and animations slow the battle system down a lot for what are just basic moves and spells. This isn't even taking into account the added time to select various moves if you're NOT doing autobattle.

 

[The Silver]

The only mainline FF game that was ever challenging to me was 12, it was the only one that really kept me alert cause shit could go south if you weren't careful.

FF13's battle system(in the last half of the game) was fun to me, I liked setting up the paradigms and constantly switching them according to the situation, felt more engaging than regular ATB.

All the other other ones were easy as shit and rarely required me to ever "strategize" besides certain bosses.

 

[Icyflamez96]

By the time lightning is done with an autoattack string in FF13, at least two people have gone in FF7. That's at the beginning of the game with 3 AP. FF7 is a lot faster than 13. You might think it's not because Lightning and co are moving around a lot more, but all the added flourishes and animations slow the battle system down a lot for what are just basic moves and spells. This isn't even taking into account the added time to select various moves if you're NOT doing autobattle.

If you're commenting on my auto battle vs attack comparison, i'm just saying that in regards to how people talk about "you just mash auto battle to win." It's almost the same thing as saying "you just mash attack to win in FFVII." Which are both wrong.

 

[Skilletor]

If you're commenting on my auto battle vs attack comparison, i'm just saying that in regards to how people talk about "you just mash auto battle to win." It's almost the same thing as saying "you just mash attack to win in FFVII." Which are both wrong.

No, I'm commenting on your suggestion that FF7 is slow paced compared to FF13. I don't believe it is. I'd say battles take a lot longer in FF13, and you spend a lot more time watching long animations and waiting in FF13 than you do in FF7.

 

[Icyflamez96]

No, I'm commenting on your suggestion that FF7 is slow paced compared to FF13. I don't believe it is. I'd say battles take a lot longer in FF13, and you spend a lot more time watching long animations and waiting in FF13 than you do in FF7.

That's your viewpoint on the matter. FFXIII feels a lot faster paced to me but it depends on what your focus goes towards I suppose. As a player, I had often had to execute things very quickly and with a fairly tight frame of time to be successful in a lot of battles. It kept me on my toes, which is why I felt a lot more engaged in it. With FFVII's system, I feel a lot more laid back, like it was a lot more lenient and gives me a lot more time to do things without generally being pressured.

 

[Skilletor]

That's your viewpoint on the matter. FFXIII feels a lot faster paced to me but it depends on what your focus goes towards I suppose. As a player, I had often had to execute things very quickly and with a fairly tight frame of time to be successful in a lot of battles. It kept me on my toes, which is why I felt a lot more engaged in it. With FFVII's system, I feel a lot more laid back, like it was a lot more lenient and gives me a lot more time to do things without generally being pressured.

I guess. I felt most situations in which I was in trouble would have been avoidable in FF13 if I had full control of my party like I do in FF7. Different conversation, I guess, except I wouldn't be reacting to things so much in FF13 if I could be preemptive with my characters the way you can in other RPGs in which you have control over your entire party.

Hate FF13 so much, lol.

 

[daniels]

FF13 had a pretty good battle system but it isnt FF7 not even close.
The stagger gauge hurt the battle system more than it helped it, for almost every enemy in the game you need to fill the stagger gauge which makes every battle unnecessary drawn out and even the smallest insignificant enemy become damage sponge because they need like 20 times the health. Also it feels really wrong.

 

[Turin]

Our Lord Nomura, who art in Japan,
Hallowed be FF7 Remake.
Thy release come.
Thy game be done
On PS4, as it is on PS1.
Give us this day our action combat systems,
And forgive us for our turn based,
As we forgive those who turn based against us.
Lead us not into random battles,
But deliver us a visible enemies.
For thine is 2015,
The era of real-time battles,
For ever and ever.
With character switching.

Excellent.

 

[Bennettt2]

This was apparently done recently (watch till the end). Jenova Absolute Orchestrated. They read my mind! I can now die with eyes closed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIC5_kHkl_E

 

[Akiller]

Tifa Character Action game , developed by Platinum Games.

Fixed.

 

[Dark_castle]

Not really, the pace of the battles in that system are just slow and boring to me either way. I felt a lot more engaged playing FFXIII's system.

Pressing auto battle feels just like pressing attack to me.

I personally found FFXIII's system to be a lot more fun even with it's obvious shortcomings. I think it'd be great if they could somehow take the core of that system and expand/alter/evolve it into something a lot better.

We will have to agree to disagree then. Let's say I'm able to ignore the whole auto battle thing, being unable to select commands directly for each party members in a turn-based combat is a deal breaker for me. Good for you if you like that, I'm hoping for the battle system to take hint from the likes of Grandia instead. Now that is a damn fine battle system.

 

[MarmaladeChainsaw]

We will have to agree to disagree then. Let's say I'm able to ignore the whole auto battle thing, being unable to select commands directly for each party members in a turn-based combat is a deal breaker for me. Good for you if you like that, I'm hoping for the battle system to take hint from the likes of Grandia instead. Now that is a damn fine battle system.

Why don't more games just rip off Grandia's battle system anyway? Definitely one of the best (if not the best) turn based system.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

its so sad that turn based games are already so barren (is persona 5 the only major one coming?) and yet people are clamoring to try and turn the greatest turn based game of all time into a fucking ARPG

 

[dramatis]

its so sad that turn based games are already so barren (is persona 5 the only major one coming?) and yet people are clamoring to try and turn the greatest turn based game of all time into a fucking ARPG

If you're speaking about combat system, FF7 was not the greatest turn based game of all time.

 

[psychotron]

Black Materia. Recently discovered this and as cheesy as much of it is, I love it, lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mTtAh-KYW0&list=PLD9A861240CFC2633

 

[Prototype]

I'd be open to prevent rendered environments, but a potential worry there is how battles would work, going to load into a separate battle scenes for instance.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

If you're speaking about combat system, FF7 was not the greatest turn based game of all time.

the game as a whole. I have no qualms with modifying the combat, but completely changing its identity is absurd.

Final fantasy 7-10 also had a magical ability of getting people that don't really play games to play them. An ARPG wouldn't help them relive the memories

 

[Sou Da]

its so sad that turn based games are already so barren (is persona 5 the only major one coming?) and yet people are clamoring to try and turn the greatest turn based game of all time into a fucking ARPG

This the FF6 remake thread?

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

This the FF6 remake thread?

if you have worse taste, then sure

 

[The Jason]

I think isometric camera angles in cities and such would be a good ideas I doubt they are going to make Midgar feel like a fully realized 3D space with full camera movement.

This concerns me as well. They will be going for full 3D camera but I don't know if they can do midgar and some other areas justice either. Perhaps a few spots will be isometric.

I think in general the appearance of a lot of areas will change quite a bit when realized in full 3D. Entire areas will be reimagined so to say, in the sense that the layout will be far more realistic, and everything within the area will be changed to be more realistic as well. The scene in the trailer where we see cloud and Barret for the first time exemplifies the kind of environment they are targeting

 

[stargateheaven]

If FF7R is fully 3D, I hope they add an option to automatically set the camera angle in places similar to how FF7 did it.
A lot of the personality in the scenes are in the way they are framed. Such as the low angle on Sephiroth reading the books during the basement scene

i agree. it had alot of charm. plus they could hide chests or potions etc because of the camera angle.

now it's gonna be like "turn camera... oh, there is a potion!"

 

[WanderingWind]

the game as a whole. I have no qualms with modifying the combat, but completely changing its identity is absurd.

Final fantasy 7-10 also had a magical ability of getting people that don't really play games to play them. An ARPG wouldn't help them relive the memories

"Hey, you know that game that is the best selling in the franchise that fans have asked for a remake of pretty much the second the PS2 was announced? You know what we should do with it? Change everything about it! You know what they say, 'you better mess with success!'"

 

[Shadow_FFVI]

if you have worse taste, then sure

Now now. Both are amazing. Final Fantasy VII is better but not by a large margin.


I hope the game doesn't tell you where to go next with an arrow or something of the sort. In general I hope it isn't dumb down for today's standards. I like being in the world map and exploring to find my next destination.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

Now now. Both are amazing. Final Fantasy VII is better but not by a large margin.


I hope the game doesn't tell you where to go next with an arrow or something of the sort. In general I hope it isn't dumb down for today's standards. I like being in the world map and exploring to find my next destination.

I was just having fun with the comment.

And your entire second point. Completely agreed. I started playing trails in the sky on steam and its such a breath of fresh air to not have a game so blatantly pointing out to me what to do.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Fixed.

Ok fine, let's do it. Someone call Kamiya.

It'll be 10x better than The Legend of Korra.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Ok fine, let's do it. Someone call Kamiya.

It'll be 10x better than The Legend of Korra.

I'd buy it day one.

 

[mrpeabody]

Um, what? Lost Odyssey was fully 3D but used fixed camera angles. The backgrounds were not prerendered.

Baten Kaitos and Baten Kaitos Origins on Gamecube used prerendered backgrounds which were a more detailed version of what FF7 was.

I want FF7 Remake to go with 3D graphics so it's "future proof" for later console ports (PS5/PS6) and such and doesn't end up with low-res backgrounds that are hard to look at years later like the PS1 FFs.

FF7's prerendered backgrounds are still much more beautiful than their polygonal contemporaries. It's the character models that are hard to look at.

But you don't have to worry. They won't prerender the backgrounds in this day and age.

For the camera in towns and buildings, they'll probably force an overhead perspective but allow the camera to move (like the FF7 world map). In battles they'll use a dynamic free camera like every Final Fantasy from the last 20 years.

 

[Icyflamez96]

Ok fine, let's do it. Someone call Kamiya.

It'll be 10x better than The Legend of Korra.

Well that's a lame comparison. Korra with an AAA budget and a reasonable amount of time for development would be awesome.

 

[Two Words]

If they do some form of ATB, I hope they dramatically lower the encounter rate and make each encounter take longer with more meaningful loot possibilities. I think the going people dread most about turn based RPGs is knowing a random battle is going to pop up every 7 seconds. It constantly pulls you out of the world you are exploring. Just tone that down and make each encounter longer.

 

[Karkador]

The level of disagreement I'm seeing in discussions about what direction the remake should take (in graphics, gameplay, art) seems pretty indicative that this remake isn't going to sit well with a lot of people.

The problem is that a lot of the things about FF7 that people are nostalgic for are outdated. The pre-rendered backgrounds, fixed camera angles, turn-based battles...that's just naming a few.

Square could probably do a 1:1 remake of the game, but it would end up being a pretty niche title. That style of RPG died out for a reason, after all.

On the other hand, they could make it a modern JRPG, along the lines of FFXIII or XV. That would certainly piss off a lot of people clamoring for nostalgia, but for every 1 jilted fan there might be 2 people who are more interested in modern games.

 

[Two Words]

The level of disagreement I'm seeing in discussions about what direction the remake should take (in graphics, gameplay, art) seems pretty indicative that this remake isn't going to sit well with a lot of people.

The problem is that a lot of the things about FF7 that people are nostalgic for are outdated. The pre-rendered backgrounds, fixed camera angles, turn-based battles...that's just naming a few.

Square could probably do a 1:1 remake of the game, but it would end up being a pretty niche title. That style of RPG died out for a reason, after all.

On the other hand, they could make it a modern JRPG, along the lines of FFXIII or XV. That would certainly piss off a lot of people clamoring for nostalgia, but for every 1 jilted fan there might be 2 people who are more interested in modern games.

I do t think turned based combat is too outdated for today. You just can't make it like it was in 1997.

 

[MogCakes]

Here's a great way to keep the original camera angles and include full camera control: Use the original PoV for cutscenes, keep full camera control otherwise. Done. Not hard.

Concerning ARPG vs Turn-based, they can either have real-time field turn-based where you choose each character's actions and they're all constantly moving around the field to position, or have an ARPG where you can control a given character with the others being AI a la Tales. Personally I'd find the latter extremely boring, but that's just me. I'm looking for something new yet not too different from the original gameplay.

 

[Karkador]

Here's a great way to keep the original camera angles and include full camera control: Use the original PoV for cutscenes, keep full camera control otherwise. Done. Not hard.

It wouldn't work.

Most of the "cutscenes" in FF7 were just scripted sequences with the text dialogue boxes, integrated seamlessly with the typical view of the game you have as you explore. This is how all the FFs before it were done, too. Pulling the camera out to some weird fixed overhead angle for every major story sequence would just be jarring and crazy.

Then there's the added complication that a fair number of FF7's story scenes tried, where the prerendered background seamlessly switches to FMV in order to pan around or move a setpiece, but with the same in-engine squat polygonal characters superimposed onto it. IMO, those types of "magic tricks" they were pulling off with FMV integration is one part of what made that game charming, and it's certainly not going to be in the remake.

The general expectation I'm going to have for the remake is that they're going to try to make something sleek and cool and looking new - think Advent Children, or Crisis Core. The brief glimpses of the art directoinin the trailer were already indicating that.
There's no reason for SE to hold itself back with the constraints of a 1997 game. That's what they're re-releasing the original game for.

 

[Shadow_FFVI]

I hope Cait Sith has more limit breaks this time around.

I don't dislike him like most seem to do. The scene where his sacrifice his body in an emotional scene only to appear a minute later is going to be a thing to behold in the remake.