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Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward |OT| Raiders of the Void Ark

scy

Member
SMN stat weights have always had WD lower than melees. Even if the secondary stat weights change for SMN, they don't change much. That trade-off for INT, Crit, Det for 2 WD, extra acc, and spell speed. How silly is this comparison now?

Bringing up SMN references to a non-SMN feels like a weird framing choice for the argument.

Also, my Law chest is absolutely terrible for me (Acc/SSPD) but this isn't the case across the board, which I suppose is technically your point. If we remove Accuracy from the equation, the argument changes a lot but I'm sitting at 518 (565 with i190 hat?) Accuracy and losing 77 from my chest is a weird state. I could sit down and math it out and figure out where food options and so-on put me but it's a fairly small gap to the point I'd be okay with making the argument about people sticking with the weapon as the safer choice.
 

Sifl

Member
Are the weather changes random or is there a pattern? I still haven't done my lvl40 fishing quest, and no one on the mb is selling them. Everyday I've checked the skywatch thing it says clear sky's for tomorrow.
 

Einhandr

Member
GAF I need your assistance. I just got back into the game after not having played since a few months after 2.0. I originally got my botanist up to 50 and had a full set of HQ AF gear. I did some melds previously, that I admit might not have been the best, but I've still got some empty slots in my gear. I'm wondering what is the best way to proceed as far as materia melding/overmelds for my gear to hit the 377 gathering / 332 perception stats for HQ Fragrant Logs.

Heres the link to my char profile with my botanist gear equipped:
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/1645828/
 

Jayhawk

Member
Bringing up SMN references to a non-SMN feels like a weird framing choice for the argument.

Also, my Law chest is absolutely terrible for me (Acc/SSPD) but this isn't the case across the board, which I suppose is technically your point. If we remove Accuracy from the equation, the argument changes a lot but I'm sitting at 518 (565 with i190 hat?) Accuracy and losing 77 from my chest is a weird state. I could sit down and math it out and figure out where food options and so-on put me but it's a fairly small gap to the point I'd be okay with making the argument about people sticking with the weapon as the safer choice.

Galen changes mains every other week, so I picked the job that already did the math.

Weapon is safest choice for DPS, but not always the smartest.

Some more OF math, this time for DRG...

As far as Weapon vs Gear goes it is a very close comparison in my case.

Comparing the stat weights in my current gear set up (I went for the chest over the legs from Normal and the neck is my largest upgrade currently):

Weapon = 1989.317
Legs/Neck = 1986.719

This is about a .18% difference with the weapon ever so slightly in the lead. Considering the Legs and Neck are BiS and the weapon is not, I am highly considering taking the Legs/Neck for the Vit and MDef increases.

Again, this is just how my case worked out so you would have to run the numbers for yourself to see whats best for you.

...

1989.317/990 tomes = 2.01 weight per tome
1986.719/1200 tomes = 1.65 weight per tome

This also depends on how much a group cares about downing something this week, possibly even earlier in the week, versus waiting for national weapon day. Downing something earlier this week means more time to learn the next floor.

I wonder how Elysium is doing in A4. If they think they can clear it with current gear or slight boosts, it wouldn't make sense to waste tomes next week on weapons if they can beat it with DPS boosts from other esoteric upgrades that will be BiS.
 
Galen changes mains every other week, so I picked the job that already did the math.

Safest choice for DPS, but not always the smartest.

Some more OF math, this time for DRG...



This also depends on how much a group cares about downing something this week, possibly even earlier in the week, versus waiting for national weapon day. Downing something earlier this week means more time to learn the next floor.

I wonder how Elysium is doing in A4. If they think they can clear it with current gear or slight boosts, it wouldn't make sense to waste tomes next week on weapons if they can beat it with DPS boosts from other esoteric upgrades that will be BiS.

since they beat a3 they shouldve gotten a twine so a weapon would be useful for at least one guy
 

iammeiam

Member
Spoilers: the answer is still buy whatever the hell you want in whatever order you want.

Especially since none of the stat weights mean anything yet; everyone has to guess on the edge cases and speculate. The weapon is just 'safe' because it's impossible to have the weapon be a bad buy. Yes, it's generally (universally? I don't know every Eso weapon's stats) not BiS, but that argument is really silly because by the time you have access to the actual BiS you've already killed all the things and have no gear walls left to climb.

People who don't want to do the painstaking math and guessing should probably go get the weapon. People deeply emotionally involved in the chest should just go get that because the play improvement from not being tormented by your lack of Eso chest will outweigh a few stat points. "Everyone should get the weapon" is decent generic advice, there's just no point in flipping over specific people's individual choices IMO.
 

iammeiam

Member
Twine doesn't upgrade weapons, gobdip does. Only Elysium knows for sure, but I think the belief is Gobdip is A4 only based on page redemptions?
 

Jayhawk

Member
People who don't want to do the painstaking math and guessing should probably go get the weapon. People deeply emotionally involved in the chest should just go get that because the play improvement from not being tormented by your lack of Eso chest will outweigh a few stat points. "Everyone should get the weapon" is decent generic advice, there's just no point in flipping over specific people's individual choices IMO.

Sorry for being emotionally involved in grade six math, and for trying to inform people that generic advice is not correct in all cases.
 
At the end of the day we're all nerds for playing this and for caring so much about what may or may not be the best possible thing to upgrade at a certain point in time. Was my chest the absolute best possible thing I could have gotten? Most likely not because I failed and went off accuracy from the first few days of savage, rather than what people were coming up with several days later. Was it still a significant upgrade over what I had and will I not be replacing it anytime soon, if at all? Sure thing.

None of our groups in the fc are so damn bleeding edge that they need the absolute best thing they can get right off the bat. As long as the gear they're buying isn't wasted on easily replacable/bad stated things or is being wasted on an alt when another class is being used for progression, then it really does not matter in the end. The gear is there to be used as a buffer, no one in our fc should be comparing themselves to the best groups out there and thinking that they somehow do not need that buffer just because these other groups that did it before them, did it without said gear.

So fucking tired of hearing day after day, in my own group and in fc chat, "well these other groups didn't need these things, why should I?". We are not these other groups, stop looking at them and thinking that we somehow compare to them.
 

iammeiam

Member
Sorry for being emotionally involved in grade six math, and for trying to inform people that generic advice is not correct in all cases.

It's imaginary sixth-grade math based on really shaky stat weights. and it goes both ways--crusading against getting the chest is equally as over the top to me. I think people are probably better off getting the weapon (especially if you're physical ranged because the i180 chest is really solid), but if they're happier with the chest that's cool.

Since, real talk, the only people squeezing max performance out of every secondary aren't reading this or paying attention to us anyway. They're wiping in A3S or A4S forever.
 

Jayhawk

Member
Since, real talk, the only people squeezing max performance out of every secondary aren't reading this or paying attention to us anyway. They're wiping in A3S or A4S forever.

It's not about squeezing max performance out of every secondary. Regardless of your skill, you might be able to upgrade something this week and help you beat a floor and move on to the next hurdle without affecting your overall performance in the end by not getting weapon first.
 

scy

Member
So fucking tired of hearing day after day "well these other groups didn't need these things, why should I?", we are not these other groups, stop looking at them and thinking that we somehow compare to them.

Because thinking you need them is significantly worse. Artificially capping yourself on what you can do skill wise by just saying "Well, I can't do better without gear" should not be a thing. There's always room for improvement and to just decide you can only improve by increasing your stats and not via your play is horrifying to me.
 

Valor

Member
Depends on how stat weights rebalance, I guess.
If the DRG stat weights are any indication, they aren't gonna be important at all. I have Alex pants and they basically require you to run two acc pieces on the right side, possibly more than that for A2S. I dunno accuracy for that but I've heard 600 spitballed before. I think you could get around that with food since I'm hovering around 578 without Alex chest. and 180 neck/wrist.
Kagari's statement was for anybody doing progression. That could also include groups that could clear A2S this week.

Did you actually do the math? No, you didn't. Some situations come out with a difference of about 3-5 main stat based on stat weights. How much main stat is increased from drops from A1S and A2S (plus tokens and upgrade items)? As if a i180 to i200 chest increase doesn't provide a pure dps gain? Continue on with your ignorance please. There are already posts by DPS classes like SMN with math that favor getting body before weapon.
Considering that I've seen literally nothing about new and updated stat weights, you're pulling numbers out of your ass as well. a 180 to 200 chest gain is going to be flat out less than a 190 to 200 weapon if weapon damage scales anywhere close to as well as it did in 2.x. You're talking about 18 points of main stat being made up for in main stat alone.

Here. I ran numbers.

190 Bard bow to 200 Bard bow given old general stat weights of .3 crit .25 det and .2 ss gives you a flat out 4.9 dps increase in main stat. With +2 weapon damage weighted around 9 points, you're looking at a 22.9 dps main stat increase. In addition you're picking up 11 points of Vitality. Bards gain about 21 health per vit point so that's an additional 226 HP out of party. You gain 19 points of Vitality from 180 to 200, which is 164 more health from picking up the chest. You gain about 2.1 points of main stat between eso and 180. This isn't fair because eso has accuracy and 180 is pure dps, but whatever.

So if I were a bard and taking the Eso chest over the Weapon my choice is now
20.8 dex or 164 health and 35 defense. So yeah, you get a shitload more main stat from a weapon because of straight up weapon damage than you get out of armor even with the sub stats factored in.

Plus, I was super generous with the stat weights since by some accounts I've heard they're as low as all under .18 for dragoon, so secondary stats matter less now than they ever have before.

Naturally each job is going to value different pieces higher than others but if you're looking at pure DPS gains the weapon is a no brainer in basically every case. If you want to classify a bard's 2.1 dps gain as a dps gain then sure. Great. Have fun. Enjoy. That's wonderful. I'll let you keep that 2.1 this week in order to get 22.9 next week.

Pick whatever piece you want, but if you're going for short term to pray that RNGesus solves your gearing problem by rewarding you an accessory from A1S that makes up for an idiotic choice in spending esoterics week 2 then I really do question who the ignorant one here is.
 

Jayhawk

Member
Because thinking you need them is significantly worse. Artificially capping yourself on what you can do skill wise by just saying "Well, I can't do better without gear" should not be a thing. There's always room for improvement and to just decide you can only improve by increasing your stats and not via your play is horrifying to me.

Gear checks are tests on the combination of the group's skill and gear. Upgrading gear to help with a gear check now without negative long-term effects does not prevent that group from still working on improving their skill. They also save time on clearing a gear check sooner because some groups have limited amount time to meet.
 

iammeiam

Member
It's not about squeezing max performance out of every secondary. Regardless of your skill, you might be able to upgrade something this week and help you beat a floor and move on to the next hurdle without affecting your overall performance in the end by not getting weapon first.

The stat upgrades were talking here are generally minor enough that if you're that close, you'll know. Repeated ~1-2% enrages with no obvious mistakes to correct? Yeah, a few points here and there might matter. Anything other than that and you're rolling the dice to some extent... Or roping the rest of your static into an early upgrade plan, I guess, and hoping 8x stat bumps pushes it.
 

Jayhawk

Member
If the DRG stat weights are any indication, they aren't gonna be important at all. I have Alex pants and they basically require you to run two acc pieces on the right side, possibly more than that for A2S. I dunno accuracy for that but I've heard 600 spitballed before. I think you could get around that with food since I'm hovering around 578 without Alex chest. and 180 neck/wrist.

Considering that I've seen literally nothing about new and updated stat weights, you're pulling numbers out of your ass as well. a 180 to 200 chest gain is going to be flat out less than a 190 to 200 weapon if weapon damage scales anywhere close to as well as it did in 2.x. You're talking about 18 points of main stat being made up for in main stat alone.

Here. I ran numbers.

190 Bard bow to 200 Bard bow given old general stat weights of .3 crit .25 det and .2 ss gives you a flat out 4.9 dps increase in main stat. With +2 weapon damage weighted around 9 points, you're looking at a 22.9 dps main stat increase. In addition you're picking up 11 points of Vitality. Bards gain about 21 health per vit point so that's an additional 226 HP out of party. You gain 19 points of Vitality from 180 to 200, which is 164 more health from picking up the chest. You gain about 2.1 points of main stat between eso and 180. This isn't fair because eso has accuracy and 180 is pure dps, but whatever.

So if I were a bard and taking the Eso chest over the Weapon my choice is now
20.8 dex or 164 health and 35 defense. So yeah, you get a shitload more main stat from a weapon because of straight up weapon damage than you get out of armor even with the sub stats factored in.

Plus, I was super generous with the stat weights since by some accounts I've heard they're as low as all under .18 for dragoon, so secondary stats matter less now than they ever have before.

Naturally each job is going to value different pieces higher than others but if you're looking at pure DPS gains the weapon is a no brainer in basically every case. If you want to classify a bard's 2.1 dps gain as a dps gain then sure. Great. Have fun. Enjoy. That's wonderful. I'll let you keep that 2.1 this week in order to get 22.9 next week.

Pick whatever piece you want, but if you're going for short term to pray that RNGesus solves your gearing problem by rewarding you an accessory from A1S that makes up for an idiotic choice in spending esoterics week 2 then I really do question who the ignorant one here is.

Yes, using numbers from Dervy and his work using the simulator is pulling numbers out of my ass. You're also attributing RNGesus to only helping you when it's about helping the group. Two potential upgrades for the group. Plus, tokens for every member of your group. Just because the numbers aren't as close for BRD does not mean the numbers aren't close for other jobs. The ignorant one here is still clear.
 

Valor

Member
Gear checks are tests on the combination of the group's skill and gear. Upgrading gear to help with a gear check now without negative long-term effects does not prevent that group from still working on improving their skill. They also save time on clearing a gear check sooner because some groups have limited amount time to meet.
No on on the bleeding edge has limited time to meet. You need to pick and viewpoint and stay with it. If you are in a raiding situation where you're losing days due to people being absent or busy why are you trying to push content when you could be thinking about the big picture. I don't really agree with a short sighted approach to gearing, regardless. One piece from one member of a static will not make or break a turn.
 

Jayhawk

Member
No on on the bleeding edge has limited time to meet. You need to pick and viewpoint and stay with it. If you are in a raiding situation where you're losing days due to people being absent or busy why are you trying to push content when you could be thinking about the big picture. I don't really agree with a short sighted approach to gearing, regardless. One piece from one member of a static will not make or break a turn.

I have referenced situations on the bleeding edge and people close to clearing A1S or A2S. I am sorry you cannot consider both situations. The only short-sighted person here is the one who can't acknowledge the actual differences of chest upgrade over weapon for some situations. One or more people getting an upgrade can definitely make or break a turn without having to spend more time.

EDIT:
Good news for Summoner nerds is that data collection and math is being done by Dervy and SMN gathering data for him.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/3esqut/summoner_spell_speed_or_crit_again/ctiuaa2
 

Valor

Member
I have referenced situations on the bleeding edge and people close to clearing A1S or A2S. I am sorry you cannot consider both situations. The only short-sighted person here is the one who can't acknowledge the actual differences of chest upgrade over weapon for some situations. One or more people getting an upgrade can definitely make or break a turn without having to spend more time.
I think it's pretty telling about your argument that you need to resort to ad hominem when you're running out of things to say.
 

Sorian

Banned
I have referenced situations on the bleeding edge and people close to clearing A1S or A2S. I am sorry you cannot consider both situations. The only short-sighted person here is the one who can't acknowledge the actual differences of chest upgrade over weapon for some situations. One or more people getting an upgrade can definitely make or break a turn without having to spend more time.

EDIT:
Good news for Summoner nerds is that data collection and math is being done by Dervy and SMN gathering data for him.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/3esqut/summoner_spell_speed_or_crit_again/ctiuaa2

Is there good news for BLM nerds?

I can't hear your math with Dervy so deep down your throat, though. Can you repeat?

Ayyyyyyy lmao. I'm out, you all have fun.
 

aceface

Member
GAF I need your assistance. I just got back into the game after not having played since a few months after 2.0. I originally got my botanist up to 50 and had a full set of HQ AF gear. I did some melds previously, that I admit might not have been the best, but I've still got some empty slots in my gear. I'm wondering what is the best way to proceed as far as materia melding/overmelds for my gear to hit the 377 gathering / 332 perception stats for HQ Fragrant Logs.

Heres the link to my char profile with my botanist gear equipped:
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/1645828/

If you bought the expansion, don't bother with fragrant logs. Start leveling your BTN and you'll be getting a better mainhand than the one you get with fragrant logs from quest rewards and vendors. I went into the expansion with the BTN mainhand you get from the level 50 quest and it was more than good enough to get me through the first few levels.
 

Einhandr

Member
If you bought the expansion, don't bother with fragrant logs. Start leveling your BTN and you'll be getting a better mainhand than the one you get with fragrant logs from quest rewards and vendors. I went into the expansion with the BTN mainhand you get from the level 50 quest and it was more than good enough to get me through the first few levels.

So just keep my gear where it's at and do the new BTN quests to get better stuff and then reasses?
 

aceface

Member
So just keep my gear where it's at and do the new BTN quests to get better stuff and then reasses?

Yeah, what suzu said. I believe at level 55 you get a new mainhand from your class quest. You can also buy new stuff from a vendor at that level that I believe is better than anything in 2.x.
 
Just beat the main scenario for heavensward and I need more story!

were they foreshadowing a revelation about the warrior of light when the arch bishop was dying?
 
Just beat the main scenario for heavensward and I need more story!

were they foreshadowing a revelation about the warrior of light when the arch bishop was dying?

What I got from it is that the
Warrior of Light isn't what it seems to be. I remember them continuously remarking how you shouldn't be able to do what you do, but you do it anyway, so I guess there's some nefarious side. I hope it approaches some kind of meta/4th wall breaking commentary on nameless characters slaughtering incredibly strong foes, I like that kind of thing instead of just playing it straight with mute protagonists. Dragon's Dogma does something like this if you want an example.
 
What I got from it is that the
Warrior of Light isn't what it seems to be. I remember them continuously remarking how you shouldn't be able to do what you do, but you do it anyway, so I guess there's some nefarious side. I hope it approaches some kind of meta/4th wall breaking commentary on nameless characters slaughtering incredibly strong foes, I like that kind of thing instead of just playing it straight with mute protagonists. Dragon's Dogma does something like this if you want an example.
Dude, dragons dogma's story was amazing cause of this and how it played it out in the true ending.

But I can't wait to see what they do with this as I'd like the WOL to have a backstory of some sort or more to them. Also just caught the after credit scene and :D
warriors of darkness! When they showed the evil hydaelyn after beating the main scenario for the realm reborn I wondered if they'd do it and happy they are.
 

Redx508

Member
this is what we do when our tank has net problems
flockdraw
2FZgbbw.png

I made this chocobo
RW7JlR9.png
 

Squishy3

Member
HW ending spoilers:

Judging by the "Now it's time for you and yours to join the fray" really makes it feel like the Warriors of Darkness are going to be another faction, but that'd be kind of disappointing. (Since you have occasions where NPCs make acknowledgements of you gathering other adventurers to fight against the primals) Maybe there's just a Scions of the Seventh Night or something that we'll end up fighting against. :p


also unrelated but in before the 24-man raid is just Alexander's chest
 
I mean when you say dumb things you can stir things up pretty quickly.
Complaining about healers that do not follow the map in Frontlines isn't a dumb thing. A lot of people suffer from this problem, but it's even more unfortunate when a healer has it as it really hampers the team.

I make a lot of silly statements, but that one was certainly not off base and anyone who PVPs more than just for fun knows that.
 

Kenai

Member
Dude, dragons dogma's story was amazing cause of this and how it played it out in the true ending.

But I can't wait to see what they do with this as I'd like the WOL to have a backstory of some sort or more to them. Also just caught the after credit scene and :D
warriors of darkness! When they showed the evil hydaelyn after beating the main scenario for the realm reborn I wondered if they'd do it and happy they are.

I said this before, but i really hope they go for an evolution of
the Ark Angels from FF11. They were basically the coalesced "perfect" forms of each race, and considered all the player characters to be defects in comparison I would love to see them with a bit more dialogue and backstory then back then. I could totally imagine them being something like Zodiark's chosen to match Hydalen, and considering the devs have had a pretty good track record of reimagining older stuff I'd love to see it be something similar here. They could definitely be the big bad for the rest of the expansion and have power on terms with PC and friends

HW ending spoilers:]

also unrelated but in before the 24-man raid is just Alexander's chest

The allusion to the
Warring Triad and all of the islands floating around already has me wondering about a FF6 style Floating Continent 24 man raid
 
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