Support NeoGAF

[Gamezone]

Richard Geldreich worked at Valve from 2009 to 2014, and his credits include some of the company’s biggest games, like Portal 2, Left 4 Dead 2, and CS:GO. He’s been publicly critical of his former employer in the past, and now that controversy over the Epic Games store is in full force, Geldreich has some more harsh words for Steam.

“Steam was killing PC gaming,” Geldreich writes on Twitter. “It was a 30% tax on an entire industry. It was unsustainable. You have no idea how profitable Steam was for Valve. It was a virtual printing press. It distorted the entire company. Epic is fixing this for all gamers.”

Geldreich’s comments on social media have been coming in since last week, initially coming in support of Tim Sweeney’s assertion that the Epic store isn’t spyware. That’s a frequent accusation about the launcher which Geldreich agrees is “insane,” adding that “I worked for Valve and believe me they gather huge amounts of data about virtually everything you do with the Steam client.”


In Geldreich’s estimation, Epic store exclusives will continue for the foreseeable future. Epic and other launchers – like Uplay, Origin, and Battle.net – will be the host for triple-A games, while “Steam will be for indy/2nd tier/shovelware/porn.”

The Epic store currently lacks many of the features that Steam provides, and Geldreich concedes that “EGS is currently shit but it’ll get better.”

https://www.pcgamesn.com/steam-shovelware



EDIT: I see that the tweets are already posted in another thread.

 

[Shin]

At this rate yes, sometimes too much of a good thing ain't good.
The same can be said of PSN also or any store that gets too big, it depends on one's perspective.
Some love it because they find gems now and then while others complain that there's too much bloatware.

Lastly we're essentially posting news based off Tweet exchange from the same person.

 

[LittleBusters]

It's hard to argue with his point. In the last 3 years that is exactly what Steam has been. But as always the free market comes to the rescue with competitors - Epic Games Store, Microsoft Play Anywhere, etc...

Regarding Steam features... when the overall service is getting so toxic it's best to get back to the CORE of things which is the GAME itself and not worry about 'communities' and wishlists.

 

[Paltheos]

It's hard to argue with his point. In the last 3 years that is exactly what Steam has been. But as always the free market comes to the rescue with competitors - Epic Games Store, Microsoft Play Anywhere, etc...

... what? It's still where I buy the majority of my shit. Big profile titles are regularly released on it and with increasing frequency too for stuff which didn't used to get much attention on the PC platform (i.e. JRPGs).

Basis for your conclusion?

 

[Verdanth]

Well if it is good porn...

 

[LittleBusters]

... what? It's still where I buy the majority of my shit. Big profile titles are regularly released on it and with increasing frequency too for stuff which didn't used to get much attention on the PC platform (i.e. JRPGs).

Basis for your conclusion?

Steam buries the good titles under an avalanche of crap(hentai, shovelware). It's not a good game store anymore. There is a case to be made for stronger curation. What Steam's agenda is with their indie-program I don't know.

 

[daveonezero]

As if that is a bad thing.

Also what happens when Valve starts doing exclusive deals or god forbid releases their own game at some time.

 

[KonradLaw]

Epic exclusives aren't sustainable. They're burning through cash to get people into the store, but they won't be able to keep it up forever. And the funny thing is that if they manage to loosen the stronghold Valve has on digital market then it will lead to every publisher getting their own store, not selling their games on Epic, because Epic's 12% is still a lot compared to 0% from your own store. Once Epic stops being heaps of cash for exclusives they will stop coming.

 

[wipeout364]

I agree with him completely.

 

[iconmaster]

Epic exclusives aren't sustainable. They're burning through cash to get people into the store, but they won't be able to keep it up forever.

Fortnite reportedly made $3 billion in 2018.

They can keep it up for quite a long time.

 

[McCheese]

Epic exclusives aren't sustainable. They're burning through cash to get people into the store, but they won't be able to keep it up forever. And the funny thing is that if they manage to loosen the stronghold Valve has on digital market then it will lead to every publisher getting their own store, not selling their games on Epic, because Epic's 12% is still a lot compared to 0% from your own store. Once Epic stops being heaps of cash for exclusives they will stop coming.

I feel like the waivering of Unreal Engine licence fee's makes it pretty much unmatchable, and the big companies which use bespoke engines (frostbite etc) are big enough to have their own stores anyway. So Epic have really gone for the throat with their proposition.

Valve would basically need to buy Unity at this point to match what Epic are offering, which is ironic as they did have a pretty strong foothold in the engine market with the Source engine, until they stopped making games with it and they forgot how to even use it themselves (not a joke, the interview with Gabe's son mentioned everybody who knew how to use it basically left).

 

[wipeout364]

Epic exclusives aren't sustainable. They're burning through cash to get people into the store, but they won't be able to keep it up forever. And the funny thing is that if they manage to loosen the stronghold Valve has on digital market then it will lead to every publisher getting their own store, not selling their games on Epic, because Epic's 12% is still a lot compared to 0% from your own store. Once Epic stops being heaps of cash for exclusives they will stop coming.

How much is costing them? I haven't seen any numbers.

 

[KonradLaw]

Fortnite reportedly made $3 billion in 2018.

They can keep it up for quite a long time.

It made 2,4 billion and the game already is starting to slow down in revenues So no, it's not sustainable long term. Epic even admits it. In the end they want to make money on the store and buying exclusives makes that impossible. They're just hoping to force people to use it for long enough that ultimatelly users will use it on their own without exclusives

 

[wipeout364]

I feel like the waivering of Unreal Engine licence fee's makes it pretty much unmatchable, and the big companies which use bespoke engines (frostbite etc) are big enough to have their own stores anyway. So Epic have really gone for the throat with their proposition.

Valve would basically need to buy Unity at this point to match what Epic are offering, which is ironic as they did have a pretty strong foothold in the engine market with the Source engine, until they stopped making games with it and they forgot how to even use it themselves (not a joke, the interview with Gabe's son mentioned everybody who knew how to use it basically left).

Is that true about the source engine. Sadly I kind of believe it even if its sarcasm.

 

[Halo is Back]

Eventually yes, that is until Valve actually dose something about it and start taking the competition seriously.

 

[LittleBusters]

It made 2,4 billion and the game already is starting to slow down in revenues So no, it's not sustainable long term. Epic even admits it. In the end they want to make money on the store and buying exclusives makes that impossible. They're just hoping to force people to use it for long enough that ultimatelly users will use it on their own without exclusives

You know what is sustainable? Having mega hit after mega hit. Somehow Rock Star manages, Sony Gaming does and so does Nintendo. Go figure.

 

[KonradLaw]

How much is costing them? I haven't seen any numbers.

The fact that they've been evasive with sales numbers makes me thing those games are selling like utter garbage on Epic. I imagine Metro alone is costing them couple dozen millions.

 

[KonradLaw]

You know what is sustainable? Having mega hit after mega hit. Somehow Rock Star manages, Sony Gaming does and so does Nintendo. Go figure.

Well, Epic never managed that...so what's your point?

 

[LittleBusters]

What really concerns me is that we're gravitating towards a bi-polar world of AAA and shovelware. I want quality AA games like Playdead Studios(LIMBO, Inside) or Ori.

 

[jshackles]

A big part of Steam's road to "only indies, shovelware, and porn" is that they allow those things at all, and big publishers are not happy about that.

If you were Ubisoft, Square Enix, Sega, etc: would you want your big PC releases marketed this way? On any other platform this shit would get the AAA game publishers to pull their content in no time flat. And this isn't even the worst example out there, this was me spending 10 seconds finding the lowest hanging fruit.

Put all the discoverability and cross-promotion issues together with Steam taking a larger cut than other stores, and it's a pretty straight line to see how this all falls apart for Valve.

 

[LittleBusters]

A big part of Steam's road to "only indies, shovelware, and porn" is that they allow those things at all, and big publishers are not happy about that.

If you were Ubisoft, Square Enix, Sega, etc: would you want your big PC releases marketed this way? On any other platform this shit would get the AAA game publishers to pull their content in no time flat. And this isn't even the worst example out there, this was me spending 10 seconds finding the lowest hanging fruit.

Put all the discoverability and cross-promotion issues together with Steam taking a larger cut than other stores, and it's a pretty straight line to see how this all falls apart for Valve.

It's clear that Gabe loves his hentai fetish and forces it on everyone and this will have consequences. Steam will lose the big publishers over his perversions.

 

[KonradLaw]

What really concerns me is that we're gravitating towards a bi-polar world of AAA and shovelware. I want quality AA games like Playdead Studios(LIMBO, Inside) or Ori.

Recent years have been great for AA titles, at least on PC and those titles are getting most of the time released on consoles too.
You won't get bipolar world because AAA are getting prohibitivelly expensive. Very few companies can now afford to develop multiple AAA titles at the same time. Most, even the ambitious ones, will have to settle for AA.

 

[michaelius]

Hmm so Halo is more of porn due to Cortana or does it fall into shovelware or indie game ?

The fact that they've been evasive with sales numbers makes me thing those games are selling like utter garbage on Epic. I imagine Metro alone is costing them couple dozen millions.

We know even indie games there get 7 digit payments for timed exclusivity

 

[LittleBusters]

Recent years have been great for AA titles, at least on PC and those titles are getting most of the time released on consoles too.
You won't get bipolar world because AAA are getting prohibitivelly expensive. Very few companies can now afford to develop multiple AAA titles at the same time. Most, even the ambitious ones, will have to settle for AA.

I am not seeing commitment to AA titles from Sony & Nintendo in the last few years since they are on winning streaks with AAA titles. Microsoft is providing almost all the quality AAs in the last 3-4 years.

 

[wipeout364]

A big part of Steam's road to "only indies, shovelware, and porn" is that they allow those things at all, and big publishers are not happy about that.

If you were Ubisoft, Square Enix, Sega, etc: would you want your big PC releases marketed this way? On any other platform this shit would get the AAA game publishers to pull their content in no time flat. And this isn't even the worst example out there, this was me spending 10 seconds finding the lowest hanging fruit.

Put all the discoverability and cross-promotion issues together with Steam taking a larger cut than other stores, and it's a pretty straight line to see how this all falls apart for Valve.

I hope you realize that Wet Girl (yes the game you just shit on) has an overwhelmingly positive rating on Steam.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Steam gives indies opportunities to TURN INTO AAA games. That being said, you can’t allow games that are blatantly obviously not games in the same universe as these AAA games. Indies can get lost in such a massive store and Steam has always been fair and has the guts to showcase these shovelware games.

 

[McCheese]

Is that true about the source engine. Sadly I kind of believe it even if its sarcasm.

Yup it's true, the son started a small indy studio and went around the Valve offices at the time asking folks how to do things in Source, everybody told him to ask someone else and eventually, he went full circle and realized nobody knew half of it anymore. Source here

 

[CatCouch]

I want to see games grow while giving consumers more options. I hate seeing this negative take on gaming where the inclusion of adult games or even indie games is viewed as a problem to be corrected. I was so excited when indie games started delivering different experiences and when Steam started allowing adult content. For those things to be used to insult or degrade Steam really depresses me. Gaming feels like it's moving away from being for consumers and entertainment.

I feel like there are better ways to handle this than de-legitimizing types of games. There should be a satisfactory way to handle the shovelware without damaging indie and adult gaming. Banning games with adult themes just to make bigger publishers feel better sounds like a bad decision.

I hope Steam tries to match Epic and do away with the 30%. I really don't want to see the indie and adult parts of gaming get pushed out.

 

[KonradLaw]

I am not seeing commitment to AA titles from Sony & Nintendo in the last few years since they are on winning streaks with AAA titles. Microsoft is providing almost all the quality AAs in the last 3-4 years.

Well, those are consoles and yeah, it sucks, but AAA have the hype on their side so they do better job convincing people to buy consoles than AA ever could, so it's not surprising that's where they invest their resources.

 

[Dragon Lord]

It's hard to argue with his point. In the last 3 years that is exactly what Steam has been. But as always the free market comes to the rescue with competitors - Epic Games Store, Microsoft Play Anywhere, etc...

Regarding Steam features... when the overall service is getting so toxic it's best to get back to the CORE of things which is the GAME itself and not worry about 'communities' and wishlists.

I think I agree with the overall point about more competition being for the best ... but giant companies like Microsoft aren't exactly what I would think of as "to the rescue" material.

 

[Bryank75]

We’ll see where things are when the dust settles and fortnite has cooled down a bit.

 

[jshackles]

I hope you realize that Wet Girl (yes the game you just shit on) has an overwhelmingly positive rating on Steam.

Playboy and Hustler magazines are popular too, but that doesn't mean they should be sold at Gamestop next to new copies of Spyro the Dragon or Yoshi's Crafted World.

For the record: I'm not arguing against this game's right to exist. I'm just saying that if you give up on curation and just let others decide what is sold on your storefront - it will probably inevitably lead to being nothing but indies, shovelware, and porn.

 

[LittleBusters]

I'm not saying there is no place for Hentai games in the free market, but they do not belong on Steam. Gabe Newell should have created a brand new service aimed at adults for that and called it Steamier.

 

[ThatGamingDude]

Par for the course in business development and IT!

Outsource until it's too costly than to just do it yourself.

Why not dev out a basic launcher for games with barebones features to try to capture new trends to develop for? If it fails, the old standard is there to fall back to anyways.

It would be interesting as hell if AAA sticks to having their own launcher (As well as Valve producing again) and it becomes battle of the indies on launchers.

 

[LittleBusters]

Par for the course in business development and IT!

Outsource until it's too costly than to just do it yourself.

Why not dev out a basic launcher for games with barebones features to try to capture new trends to develop for? If it fails, the old standard is there to fall back to anyways.

It would be interesting as hell if AAA sticks to having their own launcher (As well as Valve producing again) and it becomes battle of the indies on launchers.

Let it be a battle of a 1000 launchers! I'm so tired of the tech oligopolies. I remember back in the 1980s you had multiple DOS vendors!

 

[iconmaster]

It made 2,4 billion and the game already is starting to slow down in revenues So no, it's not sustainable long term. Epic even admits it. In the end they want to make money on the store and buying exclusives makes that impossible. They're just hoping to force people to use it for long enough that ultimatelly users will use it on their own without exclusives

It will slow down, but those billions stick around (and earn interest!). We don't know the size of the moneyhats Epic is throwing out -- maybe each is equivalent to a couple million in sales lost to a publisher that foregoes a Steam release. Maybe it's just a few million. Maybe it's a bit of a boost on promotion within the Epic Store. Probably they run the whole gamut depending on the importance of the title.

Epic definitely does not want paid exclusives to be necessary forever. But I suspect they could keep this up for years if necessary.

 

[RedVIper]

Yeah fuck steam and supporting the little guys? Who needs game like factorio,rimworld,hollow knight, enter the gungeon, risk of rain,binding of isaac,FTL, dead cells, They are billions. All trash, I want Ubisoft AAA game #23.

Also aren't adult games on steam opt in? I think they're hidden by default.

 

[synchronicity]

No matter what Epic says (not talking about the reference in the OP), they ultimately want to be Valve, ironically.

What's going to happen when/if they get big. They're going to encounter many of the same complaints and problems that Valve or any big player has to deal with.

Valve could improve in areas, but they are not the monster of the industry in the PC gaming space that many make them out to be.

 

[KonradLaw]

I think I agree with the overall point about more competition being for the best ... but giant companies like Microsoft aren't exactly what I would think of as "to the rescue" material.

Well, at least MS is funding their own games. Epic isn'tmost of the time. Personally I don't mind multiple launchers that much, but it sucks that Epic has all that money and most of it is just spent on keeping titles from Steam for short while.
They funded the porting of Journey and I think they same is true for Quantic Dreams games. Now that's a lot more positive use of money. It's easier to swallow exlusivity if it means you're getting games you otherwise wouldn't see on PC. I wish Epic would more of that, as well as fund development of brand new games that are exlusive to Epic Games Store. I sure would rather see them spend couple dozen millions on funding development of Unreal 3 than spending them on 12 months exclusivity for Metro.

 

[Solo Act]

The fact that they've been evasive with sales numbers makes me thing those games are selling like utter garbage on Epic. I imagine Metro alone is costing them couple dozen millions.

Metro Exodus sold 2.5x what the previous title sold on Steam in the same time frame.

https://www.polygon.com/2019/3/20/18274359/metro-exodus-epic-games-store-steam-exclusive-gdc-2019

 

[ThatGamingDude]

Let it be a battle of a 1000 launchers! I'm so tired of the tech oligopolies. I remember back in the 1980s you had multiple DOS vendors!

80's was before my time of sentience, but phew even during the 90's you had to make sure to get specific software for specific hardware even if you were running DOS instead of something like an Amiga.

Don't get me started on jumper and DIP switch configurations; you had to know what you were doing to play Doom back in the day, now all you do is buy a box and plop in a plastic CD that reads it with a laser and/or just magically appears on your device from another computer.

 

[KonradLaw]

Metro Exodus sold 2.5x what the previous title sold on Steam in the same time frame.

https://www.polygon.com/2019/3/20/18274359/metro-exodus-epic-games-store-steam-exclusive-gdc-2019

Yes, which meanns it likelly sold a lot less than in preorders on Steam before the game was pulled.
The fact that Epic shared thsoe specific numbers is very telling. MEtro Exodus must be selling like garbage there. If it wasn't they would give you real numbers. Instead they give you this crap. Metro Last Light debuted in 2013, when Steam was a lot weaker. And it sold 200K in first two years. In first month it must have sold only fraction of that, so 2,5x of first month sales must be pretty damn small number.

 

[RedVIper]

Metro Exodus sold 2.5x what the previous title sold on Steam in the same time frame.

https://www.polygon.com/2019/3/20/18274359/metro-exodus-epic-games-store-steam-exclusive-gdc-2019

1.The metro series is much more popular now than it was when Last Light released, that game also had bunch of problems before release. Leading to eventually getting a re release.
2.Those figures include sales on steam, let's not forget that the game could be bought there until like a week before launch.

 

[Mr Nash]

I would laugh if this came true, but instead of moving to the Epic Store, people just got consoles instead. =p

 

[Kadayi]

It made 2,4 billion and the game already is starting to slow down in revenues So no, it's not sustainable long term. Epic even admits it. In the end they want to make money on the store and buying exclusives makes that impossible. They're just hoping to force people to use it for long enough that ultimatelly users will use it on their own without exclusives

They'd stand a better chance if they made a Store that could match Steam on features. Coming out with a Client that is as barebones as they did seems like a huge oversight.

 

[Solo Act]

Yes, which meanns it likelly sold a lot less than in preorders on Steam before the game was pulled.

Those figures include sales on steam

The article makes it clear that those were sales that occurred on the Epic Games Store:

"Metro Exodus has sold two and a half times more copies on the Epic Games Store than Metro Last Light sold in the same amount of time on Steam."

It sounds like you've both created a narrative and are waving away information that goes against that.

 

[LittleBusters]

They'd stand a better chance if they made a Store that could match Steam on features. Coming out with a Client that is as barebones as they did seems like a huge oversight.

The fact that Fortnite continues to do so well on Epic proves that most people probably don't actually care about Steam's feature set.

 

[jshackles]

The fact that Fortnite continues to do so well on Epic proves that most people probably don't actually care about Steam's feature set.

Or it could be the fact that, like all of Epic's other exclusives, Fortnite simply isn't available on most people's platform of choice.

 

[Kadayi]

The fact that Fortnite continues to do so well on Epic proves that most people probably don't actually care about Steam's feature set.

You're conflating demographics. The vast majority of people on EGS are there for Fortnite and Fortnite alone, a free game with optional buy-ins. The Reason Epic is targetting Steam and snagging exclusives is in order to try and lure Steams customer base to their store because they actually will buy games.

 

[LittleBusters]

The fact is w/o hard evidence we don't know the main reason why people use Steam. I suspect network effects over the years drove people over there rather than some amazing-balls feature set.