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Framing Megan Fox: Lindsay Ellis on Feminist Theory and Transformers

no matter what the thread you just gotta find a way to make it about RLM vs. you, 'ey Bobbert?

I'm not the people who think it's a vs. situation at all.

Like, that's a pretty simplistic (and empty) way to view criticism. I don't think of film reviews as an inherently antagonistic thing. It's not Lindsay Ellis vs. Michael Bay. It's not Mike Stoklasa vs. George Lucas. And it's certainly not Me vs. Jay Baumann or whatever.

They're not good at what they do anymore. She's way better at what they do now. It seemed a pretty cake comparison to make. So I made it.

Why do people here think my criticizing mediocre YouTubers is part of some sort of half-assed attempt to "bring them down" or whatever? It's not a personal vendetta, any more than any other poster giving their opinion about any other media entities is.

If my opinions and presence were worth that much I probably wouldn't be giving them away here. But there doesn't have to be any ulterior motive behind sharing an opinion other than that I feel it, and I'm up for discussing the subject with whoever.

That's kind of the point of a discussion forum, period.
 
I don't know what to tell you then other than you're wrong and you're being fuckin' weird right now

Unless you've got like, a spreadsheet or something where you chart the criticisms I make of media and media figures and there's some sort of weird outlier there.

Otherwise you're out your ass, Anonymous Science Dog.
 

Fat4all

Banned
Right, well, I'll see you again when random person in a movie thread says 'huh, I'll be interested to see what RLM thinks about this'.
 

dream

Member
What's genuinely great about Bobby Roberts is how committed he is to acting like he's not deeply troubled by the success of RLM, despite how obvious it is to everyone that he really is.
 
Right, well, I'll see you again when random person in a movie thread says 'huh, I'll be interested to see what RLM thinks about this'.

I bet you will.

I'm glad my presence provides you some purpose here on this web site, Anonymous Science Dog who keeps track of my posts.

What's genuinely great about Bobby Roberts is how committed he is to acting like he's not deeply troubled by the success of RLM, despite how obvious it is to everyone that he really is.

Oh good, the rest of the support group is coming out the woodwork.

I bet the slack channel is alive and popping right now. Or are we too bored to use that right now
 

Glass Rebel

Member
What's genuinely great about Bobby Roberts is how committed he is to acting like he's not deeply troubled by the success of RLM, despite how obvious it is to everyone that he really is.

Almost as great as people being committed to acting like they're not butthurt by Bobby's comments on RLM, despite how obvious it is to everyone that they really are.
 
I mean, what you call a "support group," the rest of us just call "NeoGAF."

What "us" tho.

I know what "us" on NeoGAF and associated places is the kind of "us" that's super concerned with discussing me and my "cult of personality" and that "us" is a pretty small (but loud and insecure) minority of a minority of a minority of a minority of NeoGAF (the large percentage of which doesn't even know I exist, I'm pretty sure)

Almost as great as people being committed to acting like they're not butthurt by Bobby's comments on RLM, despite how obvious it is to everyone that they really are.

These kids honestly believe they don't make it obvious they're not fucking alerting each other the second I step on someone's little piggies re: their YouTube dipshits of choice.

Lindsay Ellis' series here is a fucking great series.
 
I bet you will.

I'm glad my presence provides you some purpose here on this web site, Anonymous Science Dog who keeps track of my posts.



Oh good, the rest of the support group is coming out the woodwork.

I bet the slack channel is alive and popping right now. Or are we too bored to use that right now

lmao this nerd
 
lmao this nerd

Imagine calling someone a nerd on the off-topic side of a gaming forum while attempting to stick up for people sticking up for YouTube movie critics and thinking trying to carry that straight faced is going to work.

Who are you going to tell about this without sounding just as nerdly?

How is this conversation going to go?
 
"Why am I getting so many notifications for this thread all of a sudden?"

"Wait, we're regurgitating arguments about RLM and Bobby Roberts?"

I guess I'll chime in then since I'm getting too many email notifications now. I thought Bobby Roberts wrote for one of those "enthusiastic press" sites that RLM (rightfully?) mocks in their Nerd Crew videos and that's why he's angry at them. Also, I think Roberts' criticism of RLM over the years is founded, and why I don't engage with the community anymore and barely watch their stuff.

Either way, you'd think people would discuss more Ellis' work since that's the point of this thread, and not another Youtube account or a random GAF user. Hard enough for female critics on YouTube.

(unsubscribing from this thread for the time being since it's off topic)
 
Nah, I don't write for any enthusiast press. I'm not "angry" at them either, any more than I'm "angry" at any other media provider that falls off or begins disappointing on a regular basis.

Hell, you can check the Nerd Crew thread and see me praising them for going in that direction since it was the first time in a long time they'd seemed lively again.

(they kinda ran it into the dirt shortly thereafter but it was a good idea)
 
Live look-in to this thread:

84022380.gif
 

Fat4all

Banned
I am binge watching this channel now and enjoying a lot. Thanks GAF.

her video on the flaws of RENT is one of my favorites

and the 'Loose Canon' video series is great, interesting bursts on lots of different movies and series, where she focuses on one character or theme across multiple medias
 

Aske

Member
It is because her framing is from the perspective of Sam's character. She is supposed to unapproachably attractive to give him a huge deficit of confidence and power.

This was my thought too. I remember the iconic hood-lean, but I also remember Fox's character being the courageous, knowledgeable, capable half of Team Shia; with Sam being the inept, basic underdog who served as the audience proxy. I remembered the theme of women being underappreciated, and lots of jabs at workplace sexism all the way up to the manchild Bush-era President; although I'd totally forgotten every significant detail about the plot, and every character but the two protagonists and Sam's parents. I also erroneously remembered Sam's mother being played by Julie Hagerty.

This isn't to disagree with anything Ellis says in her video. I think the issue is less Michael Bay treating Fox as eye candy, and more an issue with his presentation of the movie's plot in general. That is to say, I don't think Bay undermined the script; he just didn't do it justice.

I think the hood-lean shot is appropriate for the scene: Sam sees a woman he perceives to be an unattainable beauty, and ignores all the smart stuff she's saying because he's thirsty and socially inept. This is the one exception to the general sense of carelessness that pervades the human side of the movie: Bay filmed the script he was given in a very pedestrian way, and excelled at capturing that moment of teen lust; but his main focus was always on the OTT CGI action. Bay clearly doesn't really care about the human characters. On top of that, audiences were watching that movie for Peter Cullen's performance. Fox and LaBoeuf and the rest of the cast are there to ground the robots in a basic human story and get them to the next action sequence, while providing comic relief and fantasy fulfillment in LaBoeuf's case, and a sexual goal for both LaBoeuf and the guys-who-like-girls in the audience in the case of Fox.

So here's the way I see it. The script is good, and the characters are well-rounded. The writing generally presents women as overachieving and underappreciated. Bay shoots what's on the page without undermining it. But he also doesn't give a fuck about the anything but the giant robot action scenes. Neither do the producers. Everything around the Transformers is just kind of there. The writers did their job; Bay did his, but he didn't bring passion to the human elements. He didn't care about the characters, and neither did the audience. On top of this, Bay so exceptionally nails that one shot that is purposely representative of LaBoeuf's lust that it stands head and shoulders above everything else.

So people remember Optimus Prime, Bumblebee, and Megatron, nothing about the story (so they infer the actors and/or writing sucked); and Fox's abs. And since they've been conditioned to associate sex appeal with lack of talent and remember nothing to counter this prejudice, they come away thinking Fox must be especially talentless. Instead of remembering nothing, they remember sexy.

Obviously the following movies don't have decent script writers grounding Bay's direction the way TF1 does, so everything becomes progressively stupider and more outlandish. And more memorable because of it: TF1 feels like a by-the-numbers modern Hollywood action flick, like Battleship, Jurassic World, GI Joe, etc. TF2 is full of what-the-fuck with its racist robots. TF3 I forget completely, but TF4 has the rape card, Kelsey Grammer making deals with Deceptions, Mark Whalburg's confused face. I haven't seen the new one, but the trailer makes it look nuts - anything but by-the-numbers action.

I don't disagree with Ellis's analysis of TF1 and the effects of the way Megan Fox is presented, but I do think it was more a matter of apathetic filmmaking than Hollywood sexism deliberately undermining the script. I don't think too much weight was given to the shot of Fox leaning over the hood; I think too little was given to literally every other not-action-scene in the movie. Really interesting to stop and think about this though. I'm going to watch more of her stuff.
 

Aske

Member
Just watched episode 3. As someone with no background in film studies, I'm learning a ton. Excessive use of contrast of continuum of movement overloads the brain to induce amnesia in people who watch TF movies, especially TF3. I guess this makes Bay's movies feel more exciting to audiences than more memorable movies which seem simpler by comparison...? Not sure. I don't know why people like these films so much. I hate-watched the first three once each because I have always loved Transmorphers, and care deeply about how the Atombots waged their battle to destroy the evil forces of the Dissenticons back in the 80s. I enjoyed the fourth because Mark Whalburg and Kelsey Grammer fighting Megabyte and Grimosaur.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Yes and I should appreciate Bayonetta's "irony" more too -- except not, because I can actually have an opinion of my own, because I saw the movies and played the games myself.

Nerd culture apologia is never in short supply. I'm glad you found some that was to your liking. No matter how "human" they made her "arc," the camera was mostly interested in something else, and I'm not interested in pawing through garbage in search of plausible deniability.

Frankly, the movie is such underwritten garbage for even the male characters I'm amazed anyone is interested in this conversation. The film itself doesn't even pretend to take itself seriously. Why should we?

Jesus this is embarrassing dude.
 
After watching this video I couldn't help but think...How much better would the Transformers be if it had been about Megan Fox character?

This could have, bizarrely with Michael Bay of all people, led to a female action hero much sooner than it did. Lindsey makes a really compelling case for her character arc that would have been much better than Sam's.

Then you have to wonder why we followed Sam at all? His character was so awful and never achieved anything that wasn't handed to him. Yet we had to follow his progression. God this character is awful.

I take it back, Michael bay could never have made this series about a female action star. You'd need a different director. Sam is what Michael thinks of his audience .
 

The Boat

Member
Just watched episode 3. As someone with no background in film studies, I'm learning a ton. Excessive use of contrast of continuum of movement overloads the brain to induce amnesia in people who watch TF movies, especially TF3. I guess this makes Bay's movies feel more exciting to audiences than more memorable movies which seem simpler by comparison...? Not sure. I don't know why people like these films so much. I hate-watched the first three once each because I have always loved Transmorphers, and care deeply about how the Atombots waged their battle to destroy the evil forces of the Dissenticons back in the 80s. I enjoyed the fourth because Mark Whalburg and Kelsey Grammer fighting Megabyte and Grimosaur.
I'm guessing this is an autocorrect thing, but I laughed.

Anyway, her videos are really good and kinda blew my mind how Mikaela is actually decently written, because I certainly didn't come out of the movie with that impression.
 

Aske

Member
I'm guessing this is an autocorrect thing

Autocorrect was a Japanese figure that never came to the west. He was made of fifteen small neutral robots that combined into a big one for fighting when you smashed them together. He morphed into a briefcase with wheels.
 

Cheerilee

Member
After watching this video I couldn't help but think...How much better would the Transformers be if it had been about Megan Fox character?

This could have, bizarrely with Michael Bay of all people, led to a female action hero much sooner than it did. Lindsey makes a really compelling case for her character arc that would have been much better than Sam's.

Then you have to wonder why we followed Sam at all? His character was so awful and never achieved anything that wasn't handed to him. Yet we had to follow his progression. God this character is awful.

I take it back, Michael bay could never have made this series about a female action star. You'd need a different director. Sam is what Michael thinks of his audience .

Did you watch the previous episode, Male Gaze vs The Men?

In that episode, Lindsay explains that Sam is what Michael thinks of his audience.

(Maybe you did see it, but I just got the impression that maybe you hadn't, and that you would enjoy it.)
 

Sblargh

Banned
lol, 734 videos later, I find out she is the nostalgia chick, who I had watched before years ago. Still, congratulations from her for managing to abandon the gimmick character and upping the quality.
 
Did you watch the previous episode, Male Gaze vs The Men?

In that episode, Lindsay explains that Sam is what Michael thinks of his audience.

(Maybe you did see it, but I just got the impression that maybe you hadn't, and that you would enjoy it.)

This bit in particular kinda drastically reframes the film franchise if you're coming back to it after all these years, through these videos. Because despite the nominal status of 'hero' granted to both Sam and Cade, when you stop and think about them, they honestly reflect a pretty dire cynicism about the nature of masculinity. Sam in particular is just pathetic, and the story treats that as simply... inevitable, and to be expected.
 

Sblargh

Banned
This bit in particular kinda drastically reframes the film franchise if you're coming back to it after all these years, through these videos. Because despite the nominal status of 'hero' granted to both Sam and Cade, when you stop and think about them, they honestly reflect a pretty dire cynicism about the nature of masculinity. Sam in particular is just pathetic, and the story treats that as simply... inevitable, and to be expected.

But the important thing is that they get rewarded. They get the girl, save the world, etc.

So it is cuddling your audience saying that being a jackass is cute and you should keep at it you good boy you.
 
But the important thing is that they get rewarded. They get the girl, save the world, etc.

So it is cuddling your audience saying that being a jackass is cute and you should keep at it you good boy you.

Yep. It's weird how such behaviour can simultaneously be portrayed as negative but still inevitably rewarded with no real need for growth.
 

Chuckie

Member
I like how I always considered this a shitty series, but now Lindsay has made me realise that it is actually so much shittier and shittier on a deeper level.

She does great video's btw.
 
Autocorrect was a Japanese figure that never came to the west. He was made of fifteen small neutral robots that combined into a big one for fighting when you smashed them together. He morphed into a briefcase with wheels.

I want to see the figure, the card, and the stat sheet for this right now
 
Lindsay's videos are fuckin' ace.

I feel like Micheal Bay and the other writers were really trying to have their cake and eat it too when it comes to the dissonance between Mikaela Banes' characterization and the camerawork.
 
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