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[blu]

How about this, which I thought was implicit in my response:

"It would seem that on a real-life, well-parallelized workload on a production game, which is comprised of a mix of floating point and integer work,

(3.2Ghz * lower average Xenon work per clock) > (1.25Ghz * better Espresso average work per clock)"

My guess is that when DICE did their testing "production game" was likely "Battlefield 3" (they did say the test was done on FB2).

Well, that would break the 'SIMD non-withstanding' clause then, wouldn't it? Which would bring us to the next question of how well DICE utilized the 64-bit SIMD of Espresso, its horizontal ops, etc.

That is more or less my job description as well. Did you never work on an actual game, only support for the engine? I'm just wondering how you came to the conclusion that the gameplay code was going to be scalable?

No, I used to work on games back in the day too. Actually, I did a couple of 'one-liners' in my spare time since I quit the industry.

 

[Argyle]

Well, that would break the 'SIMD non-withstanding' clause then, wouldn't it? Which would bring us to the next question of how well DICE utilized the 64-bit SIMD of Espresso, its horizontal ops, etc.

What SIMD not withstanding clause? I don't understand?

Do you think DICE should have been thinking in those terms when they evaluated the engine? ("Gosh, this is running at 15fps, but if we wave our hands and not consider the floating point throughput, I think in the end that's almost like 30fps, so we're all good!")

I have no idea how much effort they put into it - it's possible the tools were garbage and the compiler did nothing for them. But isn't this CPU pretty old now, shouldn't the compilers be pretty mature?

How much effort would you expect them to put in when they know the theoretical max is not going to be equivalent to the Xenon anyway?

 

[blu]

What SIMD not withstanding clause? I don't understand?

My original question was: 'What do you think Xenon has over Espresso, SIMD non-withstanding?' If you say they tested with an actual game then of course the SIMD side of things cannot be isolated now, can it?

Do you think DICE were thinking in those terms when they evaluated the engine? ("Gosh, this is running at 15fps, but if we wave our hands and not consider the floating point throughput, I think in the end that's almost like 30fps, so we're all good!")

I have no idea how much effort they put into it - it's possible the tools were garbage and the compiler did nothing for them. But isn't this CPU pretty old now, shouldn't the compilers be pretty mature?

Dunno about other compilers, but on gcc you have to get through some hoops to get the autovectorizer to even acknowledge the existence of paired-singles. The biggest issue is that if in the wrong 'mood' it will accept all paired-singles-related command line options and silently ignore them. Which is not fatal if you have the habit to always check what cc did today, but can be a source of issues, and is straight-out annoying as fuck.

How much effort would you expect them to put in when they know the theoretical max is not going to be equivalent to the Xenon anyway?

No effort. But did they do that, actually? What I mean is, did they run a game scenario, check the actual sustained FP throughput on Xeonon, then compared that to the theoretical Espresso FP throughput?

 

[v1oz]

Activision had to turn down Call of Duty's lighting effects and make other changes to get it running on Wii U.

Who told you that? Besides COD was a quick port job, it wasn't very optimized.

 

[Argyle]

My original question was: 'What do you think Xenon has over Espresso, SIMD non-withstanding?' If you say they tested with an actual game then of course the SIMD side of things cannot be isolated now, can it?

Then the answer to your question is simple (and again, it's right there in my response):

The thing that Xenon has over Espresso is that it is clocked at 3.2GHz, instead of 1.25Ghz.

You should know the drill, no one gives a shit about how elegant the processor architecture is or how efficient or whatever if it doesn't deliver the goods. I don't think there will be many gamers out there saying "I'm so happy that I am playing this game with fewer online opponents because the CPU in this system is more elegant."

Dunno about other compilers, but on gcc you have to get through some hoops to get the autovectorizer to even acknowledge the existence of paired-singles. The biggest issue is that if in the wrong 'mood' it will accept all paired-singles-related command line options and silently ignore them. Which is not fatal if you have the habit to always check what cc did today, but can be a source of issues, and is straight-out annoying as fuck.

I have not used an Espresso like processor since the GameCube (and honestly I was not writing to the metal kinda code back then), did the compilers Nintendo provided in those days produce horribly suboptimal code? If so, why didn't they make it a priority to fix it in the last 10 years? I mean, true, they probably had some hiccups with the purchase of SN by Sony...I have no idea what people used in the Wii era and beyond. (Codewarrior? Did Nintendo provide something else?)

The minimum effort I would have expected DICE to put in was to update their base math library to use whatever the Espresso uses. I'm pretty sure EA had something like that lying around given 10+ years of GameCube and Wii games, so it's not like they would have had to write that from scratch for their test.

No effort. But did they do that, actually? What I mean is, did they run a game scenario, check the actual sustained FP throughput on Xeonon, then compared that to the theoretical Espresso FP throughput?

Would they have to? Wouldn't the situation look like this?

"Wow. Job group A with a heavy FPU workload that takes 1ms of wall clock time across 6 Xenon hardware threads seems to take 7-8ms of wall clock time across three Espresso hardware threads. How the hell are we going to claw all that time back...and that's just job group A. What about groups B, C, D..."

(Numbers based on the ratio of the theoretical max GFLOPS of each CPU - 115GFLOPS for Xenon, 15 or so GFLOPS for WiiU, right? The ratio probably isn't that severe in reality but I think you are looking at a significant amount of time to get back...just look at all the blocks in the BFBC2 timing view screenshot running on SPU, which is really Frostbite 1)

 

[Schnozberry]

I have not used an Espresso like processor since the GameCube (and honestly I was not writing to the metal kinda code back then), did the compilers Nintendo provided in those days produce horribly suboptimal code? If so, why didn't they make it a priority to fix it in the last 10 years? I mean, true, they probably had some hiccups with the purchase of SN by Sony...I have no idea what people used in the Wii era and beyond. (Codewarrior? Did Nintendo provide something else?)

The minimum effort I would have expected DICE to put in was to update their base math library to use whatever the Espresso uses. I'm pretty sure EA had something like that lying around given 10+ years of GameCube and Wii games, so it's not like they would have had to write that from scratch for their test.

I think the problem may have been more related to Nintendo's piss poor early dev tools than any incompetence on the part of DICE. Also, while the PPC750 is an old design, I believe there were several changes made for Broadway, ikely integrating changes made to from the vanilla 750 to 750FX and GX, and probably even more made specifically for Wii U like SMP and the cache changes. I don't think you can necessarily extrapolate performance by linearly scaling up the clock from the Gamecube.

Here's what I can find from IBM notating the changes from the 750fx to 750cl. I have no clue as to what additional changes may have been made by Nintendo.

https://www-01.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A88091CAFE0F19CE852575EE0073078A/$file/To%20CL%20-%20CL%20Special%20Features%206-22-09.pdf

 

[JordanN]

On the CPU thing, I remember spewing flak at Bgassassin for this comment but I guess he was right. Ninty just cheaped out...again...

We’re not going to deliver a system that has so much horsepower that no matter what you put on there it will run beautifully, and also, because we’re selling the system with the GamePad – which adds extra cost to the package – we don’t want to inflate the cost of each unit by putting in excessive CPU power.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-now-on-to-compete-over-graphics-7936301.html


In other words, Nintendo could have went with a CPU that would handle third party games with ease. Instead, he used that money on a lobster dinner.

 

[wsippel]

If EA isn't stupid, they should still do whatever they can to port FB3 over even if they have no immediate plans to develop anything for the system, or they might end up looking pretty stupid if something unexpected happens. However unlikely it may be, if PS4 and 720 tank and Nintendo manages to turn things around, EA can pretty much close shop as it stands. Investing a couple hundred thousand in a plan B might seem expensive, but it's actually nothing compared to their current development budgets.

I have not used an Espresso like processor since the GameCube (and honestly I was not writing to the metal kinda code back then), did the compilers Nintendo provided in those days produce horribly suboptimal code? If so, why didn't they make it a priority to fix it in the last 10 years? I mean, true, they probably had some hiccups with the purchase of SN by Sony...I have no idea what people used in the Wii era and beyond. (Codewarrior? Did Nintendo provide something else?)

The minimum effort I would have expected DICE to put in was to update their base math library to use whatever the Espresso uses. I'm pretty sure EA had something like that lying around given 10+ years of GameCube and Wii games, so it's not like they would have had to write that from scratch for their test.

Nintendo used CodeWarrior on Gamecube and Wii. Not the worst compiler in the world, but the versions Nintendo shipped were horribly outdated as far as I know. For Espresso, they use Green Hills Optimizing Compilers, which is supposedly the best compiler suite available for ppc32, but the version Nintendo used until late last year was also outdated. Hope they updated to the latest major version by now, as there have been some substantial improvements (the 2012 version produces up to 20% faster code). Either way, there's no mention in the documentation so it doesn't seem GHS supports paired singles - if you want to get decent floating point performance out of this thing, you'll apparently have to go the assembly route.

 

[blu]

Then the answer to your question is simple (and again, it's right there in my response):

The thing that Xenon has over Espresso is that it is clocked at 3.2GHz, instead of 1.25Ghz.

You should know the drill, no one gives a shit about how elegant the processor architecture is or how efficient or whatever if it doesn't deliver the goods. I don't think there will be many gamers out there saying "I'm so happy that I am playing this game with fewer online opponents because the CPU in this system is more elegant."

Oh, I was definitely not looking for the consumer's perspective on this one. Ok, nevermind, your position is that the clock advantage of Xenon is an actual performance advantage, and since I don't happen to have figures at hand to show you otherwise, I'll just leave it at that.

I have not used an Espresso like processor since the GameCube (and honestly I was not writing to the metal kinda code back then), did the compilers Nintendo provided in those days produce horribly suboptimal code? If so, why didn't they make it a priority to fix it in the last 10 years? I mean, true, they probably had some hiccups with the purchase of SN by Sony...I have no idea what people used in the Wii era and beyond. (Codewarrior? Did Nintendo provide something else?)

No idea about nintendo's compilers (it should be CW indeed). But back in the day autovectorizers were not even in the cards - vector code was either hand-crafted (asm or intrinsics) or simply not there. Now, how good it would be would depend largely on the coder, naturally (and occasionally on the compiler's sanity not to fuck up your intrinsics, when those were in use), but you can do only so much coding with hand-crafted code. Never send a human to do a machine's work, I say.

The minimum effort I would have expected DICE to put in was to update their base math library to use whatever the Espresso uses. I'm pretty sure EA had something like that lying around given 10+ years of GameCube and Wii games, so it's not like they would have had to write that from scratch for their test.

Very likely, but unless your libraries are 100% efficient it still makes sense to try your luck with a contemporary autovectorizing compiler - those buggers can be really inventive when looking for scheduling opportunities.

 

[Argyle]

I think the problem may have been more related to Nintendo's piss poor early dev tools than any incompetence on the part of DICE. Also, while the PPC750 is an old design, I believe there were several changes made for Broadway, ikely integrating changes made to from the vanilla 750 to 750FX and GX, and probably even more made specifically for Wii U like SMP and the cache changes. I don't think you can necessarily extrapolate performance by linearly scaling up the clock from the Gamecube.

Here's what I can find from IBM notating the changes from the 750fx to 750cl. I have no clue as to what additional changes may have been made by Nintendo.

https://www-01.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A88091CAFE0F19CE852575EE0073078A/$file/To%20CL%20-%20CL%20Special%20Features%206-22-09.pdf

Well, here's my quick 5 minute analysis:

It looks like paired singles have been in there since the Gekko, so the math library should have been valid, unless they changed the syntax for the intrinsics or something. Even so, it should have been a search and replace kinda dealie to get that working properly.

If they started from the baseline Xenon code, then it's likely that any cache locking code used by the jobs would not be working properly on the Espresso. But you know, I don't know how much that would matter - the (1MB) cache is shared on Xenon so I would think that you would lock the cache to prevent something going on in another core from evicting the data you are interested in. Additionally, the jobs share code on PS3 SPU and Xenon PPU, which means that the data for each job is already going to be SPU local store friendly and should fit easily in cache (SPU LS = 256K, Espresso has at least 512K cache per core). So my guess is that there is not much work (and not much additional benefit to eke out) to be done here.

As for SMP, my understanding is that something like that is typically handled by the OS. If the WiiU OS doesn't support basic threading with stuff for synchronization...holy crap. Sure, it might have been slow initially, but I have a feeling that the fact that locking a mutex or something was suboptimal was not the cause of their test not having promising results...I think that would look like a death by a thousand cuts kinda thing but it would probably seem more like a rounding error considering everything else going on.

 

[waypoetic]

DICE and Visceral working together? Cool.

 

[AzaK]

And apparently armchair gaffers know the frostbite engine better than the technical director himself.

No, but when as a software engineer I hear comments along the line of 'We tried to get it running on our old engine but performance wasn't good' I tend not to jump to the conclusion that it could not be done if the effort was put in.

Now whether the effort is worth it is another story and completely unrelated.

 

[wsippel]

No, but when as a software engineer I hear comments along the line of 'We tried to get it running on our old engine but performance wasn't good' I tend not to jump to the conclusion that it could not be done if the effort was put in.

Now whether the effort is worth it is another story and completely unrelated.

I usually always mention Second Reality on C64 whenever the "didn't work, not enough power" thing comes up.

 

[Schnozberry]

I usually always mention Second Reality on C64 whenever the "didn't work, not enough power" thing comes up.

That still blows my mind to this day.

DICE can't squeeze blood from a turnip, but it would be nice to know if they had even tried to get Frostbite up and running with the latest tools from Nintendo. It would be a shame if they gave up when the tools were pants.

 

[blu]

That still blows my mind to this day.

DICE can't squeeze blood from a turnip, but it would be nice to know if they had even tried to get Frostbite up and running with the latest tools from Nintendo. It would be a shame if they gave up when the tools were pants.

DICE are not a demo group, though. And they happen to work for EA. Chances are they've done exactly what's been financially viable.

 

[Argyle]

DICE are not a demo group, though. And they happen to work for EA. Chances are they've done exactly what's been financially viable.

What's funny is that DICE started out as a demo group back in the day...(are any of those guys still there? I kinda think not, none of the names look familiar...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EA_Digital_Illusions_CE

 

[nekomix]

That still blows my mind to this day.

DICE can't squeeze blood from a turnip, but it would be nice to know if they had even tried to get Frostbite up and running with the latest tools from Nintendo. It would be a shame if they gave up when the tools were pants.

And this is Nintendo's fault. Time is money, they didn't deliver tools at the right time and have no reasons to convince them to retry and port FB3 now. For this, Nintendo has only themselves to blame. You want to take a different path than others and want to make them consider this alternate path, do it correctly. They did it correctly on Wii, even if they ended with a shitton of shovelware.
Sometimes, you have to learn your lessons by the hard way. It took billons of dollars to Sony, it will take a huge amount of money to Nintendo.

 

[Schnozberry]

DICE are not a demo group, though. And they happen to work for EA. Chances are they've done exactly what's been financially viable.

Fair point. I guess we'll have to hope the install base grows enough to pique EA's Eye of Sauron.

 

[wsippel]

And this is Nintendo's fault. Time is money, they didn't deliver tools at the right time and have no reasons to convince them to retry ans port FB3 now. For this, Nintendo has only themselves to blame. You want to take a different path than others and want to make them consider this alternate path, do it correctly. They did it correctly on Wii, even if they ended with a shitton of shovelware.
Sometimes, you have to learn your lessons by the hard way. It took billons of dollars to Sony, it will take a huge amount of money to Nintendo.

Still, as I just mentioned, there's a small possibility that this will hurt EA more than Nintendo in the end. With the way the big publishers work, if PS4 and 720 don't take off, they're out of options - they're completely and utterly fucked.

 

[prag16]

Still, as I just mentioned, there's a small possibility that this will hurt EA more than Nintendo in the end. With the way the big publishers work, if PS4 and 720 don't take off, they're out of options - they're completely and utterly fucked.

Right. It shouldn't be super expensive as plan B as you stated. And you'd think it'd be worth it to them especially when last gen, they admitted they had "backed the wrong horse", and would have had a different approach with the benefit of hindsight. I guess they have a short memory.

 

[Argyle]

Oh, I was definitely not looking for the consumer's perspective on this one. Ok, nevermind, your position is that the clock advantage of Xenon is an actual performance advantage, and since I don't happen to have figures at hand to show you otherwise, I'll just leave it at that.

I'm just going to comment here that I think we have debated the relative merit of the Espresso before, but since no one had real metrics to share, you had nearly convinced me when you started posting whatever benchmarks you had a while back.

But honestly, I've known for months that Frostbite was not coming to the WiiU for performance reasons, it's just that we couldn't have this discussion until that info was made public. It was very hard for me to square the idea that the Espresso was at least as fast as the Xenon and yet there were no plans to port Frostbite over, because the limiting factor certainly didn't seem like it would be memory size or GPU power...

 

[Tobor]

Still, as I just mentioned, there's a small possibility that this will hurt EA more than Nintendo in the end. With the way the big publishers work, if PS4 and 720 don't take off, they're out of options - they're completely and utterly fucked.

If PS4 and 720 don't take off, the entire industry is fucked. Making games for the Wii U won't save anybody.

 

[Projectjustice]

If PS4 and 720 don't take off, the entire industry is fucked. Making games for the Wii U won't save anybody.

Get ready to lube it up, we are going for a rough ride.

 

[wsippel]

If PS4 and 720 don't take off, the entire industry is fucked. Making games for the Wii U won't save anybody.

Maybe, maybe not. Unlike Sony or Microsoft, Nintendo won't bail no matter what, so they're probably the only remaining option if everything goes south. Let's hope we won't find out.

 

[Argyle]

If PS4 and 720 don't take off, the entire industry is fucked. Making games for the Wii U won't save anybody.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

I would also add that if the WiiU takes off I am going to guess it will not be because it got some AAA blockbuster game powered by something like Frostbite.

 

[Tobor]

Maybe, maybe not. Unlike Sony or Microsoft, Nintendo won't bail no matter what, so they're probably the only remaining option if everything goes south. Let's hope we won't find out.

It won't happen. There will be some overall contraction this gen, but the bulk of it will be Wii owners dropping out.

 

[fmpanda]

Right. It shouldn't be super expensive as plan B as you stated. And you'd think it'd be worth it to them especially when last gen, they admitted they had "backed the wrong horse", and would have had a different approach with the benefit of hindsight. I guess they have a short memory.

With Sony and MS going bleeding edge again, the big publishers have to adapt to that model of game development, which costs $$$. As the HD twins Part Deux are 2 of 3 of video game manufacturers, naturally publishers are going to go with the majority flow, even if it bites them in the ass like last gen, especially if the gamble works out right. As HD adoption increased, so did the PS3/360 sales, so all of the closures, failed new IPs, and the "AAA" model worked out in the end for them, so they're going to stick to what works. Sucks, but, that's the way it flows.

 

[wsippel]

It won't happen. There will be some overall contraction this gen, but the bulk of it will be Wii owners dropping out.

Hope you're right, but I think there's more to it. The ever increasing focus on mature games is a huge problem in my opinion. The gamer demographic grows older, with very little new blood coming in. And thats not good at all.

 

[JordanN]

Maybe, maybe not. Unlike Sony or Microsoft, Nintendo won't bail no matter what, so they're probably the only remaining option if everything goes south. Let's hope we won't find out.

I'm curious how can Wii U save the industry?

Wii U games cost the same to make as PS3/360 so there is no decreased risk of games bombing.

What's worse is the Wii U's installbase and MSRP. Why should developers make games for Wii U and not PS3/360?

If anything, Wii U just proves how poorly thought out the hardware is. It's not powerful enough to be in the same leagues as PS4/720 but it's not powerful enough to be a difference from PS3/360 (bigger installbase, cheaper MSRP).

It also doesn't help Nintendo poisoned the well with a bomba CPU.

 

[AzaK]

Still, as I just mentioned, there's a small possibility that this will hurt EA more than Nintendo in the end. With the way the big publishers work, if PS4 and 720 don't take off, they're out of options - they're completely and utterly fucked.

Very much so, it's a gamble on their part - be it out of spite or purely business decisions. If Wii U does establish itself as a reasonable platform for "core" gamers then there could very well be a market for the publishers who currently "Have no plans" for Wii U development. Thing is, by the time they then start getting on board, it'll be a couple of years down the track already.

However, I don't feel that 720 or PS4 will bomb. There is a big core gamer market and Sony are going after them hard it seems.

 

[prag16]

With Sony and MS going bleeding edge again, the big publishers have to adapt to that model of game development, which costs $$$. As the HD twins Part Deux are 2 of 3 of video game manufacturers, naturally publishers are going to go with the majority flow, even if it bites them in the ass like last gen, especially if the gamble works out right. As HD adoption increased, so did the PS3/360 sales, so all of the closures, failed new IPs, and the "AAA" model worked out in the end for them, so they're going to stick to what works. Sucks, but, that's the way it flows.

Numerous failed AAA projects and tanked new IP's, thousands upon thousands of lost jobs from many many dozen studio closures plus major publishers disappearing is a hell of a lot of carnage for something you say "worked out"..

 

[phosphor112]

DICE has been at the forefront of making their engine highly parallelized. I believe they use a jobs model on both PS3 and 360, so I can't imagine getting FB to work across 8 Jaguars is that big an issue for them. And aren't you the one who's so fond of bringing up that the WiiU's dedicated sound hardware saves a ton of CPU time? That's just as true of PS4 (and Durango). PS4 also doesn't need to dedicate large amounts of its CPU time to compensating for a weak GPU the way Cell did, so we're down to PS3 games that used less than half the Cell time for vertex culling and MLAA or otherwise compensating for RSX and doing sound work and which are using physics middleware that isn't going to ship a GPGPU accelerated version for PS4 they could plug straight in to. And why are they moving this PS3 game to PS4 anyway, and not working on a new title for PS4 in potentially a new engine? I'm not sure what you're even arguing for anymore, or why you're arguing at all. I mean, moving the goalposts is one thing, but you're putting them in the weirdest places for no apparent reason.

I just want to note that FB2 for BF3 runs significantly better on PS3 than it does on 360, and it is because it is highly parallel. The only downside is the AA, because it actually takes up some of the time of the SPE's (because the RSX sucks), causing the game to actually run slower. Turn off the AA and everything else, lighting, sound, etc, runs better.

 

[Schnozberry]

With Sony and MS going bleeding edge again, the big publishers have to adapt to that model of game development, which costs $$$. As the HD twins Part Deux are 2 of 3 of video game manufacturers, naturally publishers are going to go with the majority flow, even if it bites them in the ass like last gen, especially if the gamble works out right. As HD adoption increased, so did the PS3/360 sales, so all of the closures, failed new IPs, and the "AAA" model worked out in the end for them, so they're going to stick to what works. Sucks, but, that's the way it flows.

Sony and Microsoft aren't going bleeding edge either, aside from maybe Sony with their more forwarding thinking memory choice.

I also am more aligned with wsippel's thinking that sticking with blockbuster AAA releases is a serious gamble on the part of EA and seemingly Activision/Blizzard as well. They seem to have reasoned that this is a conservative decision, but I think it puts them in a serious feast or famine proposition. If even a few games underperform, they will have layoffs and executive heads rolling.

I'm not saying Nintendo is in a better situation currently, they clearly aren't, but it seems to me these big 3rd party publishers are leaving a lot of room in their release schedules for smaller developers to fill the gaps. If some of their games become smash hits, I'm not sure the big studios will be flexible enough to respond to changing market conditions. It's like Hollywood in the 50s and 60s when the big studios had to completely reorganize.

 

[Surfheart]

Hang on a sec, are people in this thread saying that the cpus in these next gen systems are slower than the cpus in the 7 year old 360 and PS3 or am I not reading something right?

 

[phosphor112]

Just in case anyone (not necessarily you Brad!) needs to understand how Frostbite works, so we are all at least on the same page here:

http://dice.se/wp-content/uploads/Sthlm10_ParallelFutures_Final.ppt

Honestly anyone trying to make the argument "but the PS4/Durango will have problems with Frostbite too!" should probably read the section on what Johan wants in future hardware carefully.

Looks like PS4 / Durango are right up their goal's alley.

hUMA and instant context switching and other HSA features, etc...

 

[USC-fan]

Hang on a sec, are people in this thread saying that the cpus in these next gen systems are slower than the cpus in the 7 year old 360 and PS3 or am I not reading something right?

In real world performance the next gen CPU are a lot better.

In some benchmark the older cpu are better. To be very clear in no way would anyone want these old cpu in the next gen systems.

 

[AzaK]

Hang on a sec, are people in this thread saying that the cpus in these next gen systems are slower than the cpus in the 7 year old 360 and PS3 or am I not reading something right?

Well some have more cores and all but the frequency which they run at is MUCH slower. Some like the Wii U's also have weak SIMD performance compared to the 360 and PS3. So in some cases they might be "slower" but not necessarily worse overall.

 

[onipex]

let's be honest people. we all know why EA doesn't want to waste money getting their go to engine for next gen running on Wii U, the return on investment just isn't there.

EA is looking to cut costs and make money right now and wasting money on the Wii U is pointless when the user base is tiny and it's pretty obvious that nintendo didn't catch lightning in a bottle again.

PS360 can still get ports because the ROI is still there. The user base is massive and they already had previous versions of their engines up and running for years. With the Wii U, it's different. They'd have to spend time and money to get their engine running on it. They tried it and didn't like what they saw. I believe they saw that they would need to spend a decent amount of time to fine tune the engine to run on the system and for what? What game will they release on the Wii U that would give them a decent ROI? Madden? Fifa? Battlefield? Are we honestly going to sit here and realistically say that the people buying a Wii U are doing it for these titles? C'mon man.

If the ROI isn't there, your company shouldn't be there. That's the name of the game and EA is making the right decision. I believe they can get the engine running on it, but it's not worth it plain and simple.

How about we really be honest here. EA pulled the plug before the Wii U bombed. Its been clear since Mass Effect Trilogy skipped the system that EA wasn't going to support the Wii U from jump. If they wanted the games to be on the system they would be there.

People like you that act like this is about the userbase are ignoring that it looks like EA isn't supporting the 3DS this year either and its userbase is over 30 million ,but maybe that is not visible enough for them.

 

[AzaK]

.

 

[Starfish Hero]

I'm curious how can Wii U save the industry?

Wii U games cost the same to make as PS3/360 so there is no decreased risk of games bombing.

What's worse is the Wii U's installbase and MSRP. Why should developers make games for Wii U and not PS3/360?

If anything, Wii U just proves how poorly thought out the hardware is. It's not powerful enough to be in the same leagues as PS4/720 but it's not powerful enough to be a difference from PS3/360 (bigger installbase, cheaper MSRP).

It also doesn't help Nintendo poisoned the well with a bomba CPU.

No one said the Wii U will "save the industry". It should be common knowledge though that Nintendo would be the last to leave if everything went to shit, simply because they are the only one with nothing better to do.

How about we really be honest here. EA pulled the plug before the Wii U bombed. Its been clear since Mass Effect Trilogy skipped the system that EA wasn't going to support the Wii U from jump. If they wanted the games to be on the system they would be there.

People like you that act like this is about the userbase are ignoring that it looks like EA isn't supporting the 3DS this year either and its userbase is over 30 million ,but maybe that is not visible enough for them.

Don't forget canceling Crysis before launch, even though it was basically gold.

 

[hooijdonk17]

Fair point. I guess we'll have to hope the install base grows enough to pique EA's Eye of Sauron.

How the fuck are EA now Sauron for not wanting to lose money to cater to your whims when Nintendo basically fucked you over in utter arrogance and greed by selling you an outdated piece of shit because you know 'we are nintendo lulz'?

The finger pointing by Nintendo fans in this thread is incredible. It almost looks like a weird nerdy version of the Stockholm Syndrome.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

How the fuck are EA now Sauron for not wanting to lose money to cater to your whims when Nintendo basically fucked you over in utter arrogance and greed by selling you an outdated piece of shit because you know 'we are nintendo lulz'?

The finger pointing by Nintendo fans in this thread is incredible. It almost looks like a weird nerdy version of the Stockholm Syndrome.

Why do you feel you can call people out and judge them while actively posting like a piece of shit?

Dont reduce a few posters talking out of their ass as representative of a whole group.

 

[squidyj]

Looks like PS4 / Durango are right up their goal's alley.

hUMA and instant context switching and other HSA features, etc...

i want them to post fb3 papers.

 

[phosphor112]

i want them to post fb3 papers.

I fucking LOVE technical presentations. They get my jimmies all wet.

How the fuck are EA now Sauron for not wanting to lose money to cater to your whims when Nintendo basically fucked you over in utter arrogance and greed by selling you an outdated piece of shit because you know 'we are nintendo lulz'?

The finger pointing by Nintendo fans in this thread is incredible. It almost looks like a weird nerdy version of the Stockholm Syndrome.

You think those posts are bad?

Watch this. Seriously, at least get halfway through it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WUf5U_sEWA

 

[Effect]

How about we really be honest here. EA pulled the plug before the Wii U bombed. Its been clear since Mass Effect Trilogy skipped the system that EA wasn't going to support the Wii U from jump. If they wanted the games to be on the system they would be there.

People like you that act like this is about the userbase are ignoring that it looks like EA isn't supporting the 3DS this year either and its userbase is over 30 million ,but maybe that is not visible enough for them.

I wish people would stop ignoring this aspect of the situation. Where EA stands has been clear before the Wii U even launched and the negative down turn didn't really start until after the holiday launch as well. The bad sales of the Wii U at the moment has not influenced their support of the system. It could not have. For it to have been an influence they'd have had to make that decision in the last few months looking at the negative data from February to April. Sales were good in Nov and December. We only got Jan sales day in Feb. While also knowing Nintendo would be releasing their own titles, finally, that will certainly move hardware units and increase the user base in the second half of the year. The support was never there in the first place. That decision was made long before the first store rang up a Wii U sale.

This goes for all other publishers as well. Their suport level was already decided and the low sales now can't be used as an excuse. In fact it can be argued the low sales wouldn't be an issue had the games actually be been there to fill the gap.

 

[squidyj]

I fucking LOVE technical presentations. They get my jimmies all wet.



You think those posts are bad?

Watch this. Seriously, at least get halfway through it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WUf5U_sEWA

SIGGRAPH man. It's like fuckin' christmas man!

 

[Schnozberry]

How the fuck are EA now Sauron for not wanting to lose money to cater to your whims when Nintendo basically fucked you over in utter arrogance and greed by selling you an outdated piece of shit because you know 'we are nintendo lulz'?

The finger pointing by Nintendo fans in this thread is incredible. It almost looks like a weird nerdy version of the Stockholm Syndrome.

LOL hilarious. EA was voted the worst company in the world for two years in a row. Their reputation for treating employees like shit and insulting the intelligence of gamers with anti-consumer policies precedes them. I'm not excusing Nintendo's near Three Stooges handling of the Wii U launch, I was just making a joke at the expense of EA' s well earned reputation. These Nintendo threads sure attract utterly humorless people.

 

[Tobor]

How about we really be honest here. EA pulled the plug before the Wii U bombed. Its been clear since Mass Effect Trilogy skipped the system that EA wasn't going to support the Wii U from jump. If they wanted the games to be on the system they would be there.

People like you that act like this is about the userbase are ignoring that it looks like EA isn't supporting the 3DS this year either and its userbase is over 30 million ,but maybe that is not visible enough for them.

Lets be REALLY honest. Nintendo has a demographics problem. Their platforms are marketed and sold to young children and families with young children in the west. That's a problem for anyone not making games for that demographic. Take away the Wii sized casual userbase, and it's a much bigger problem.

 

[TalesOfWin]

Still, as I just mentioned, there's a small possibility that this will hurt EA more than Nintendo in the end. With the way the big publishers work, if PS4 and 720 don't take off, they're out of options - they're completely and utterly fucked.

People seem to have a short memory. Once upon a time DICE actually came to Nintendo and offered the Battlefield franchise to be exclusive to the Gamecube. Nintendo turned it down because they could promise an online structure. Seems like Nintendo is to blame here.

Nintendo: DICE Offered Battlefield To Nintendo As A Gamecube Exclusive.

During Nintendo World Reports Live Podcast for Child’s Play one of the participants who was privy to Nintendo’s inner workings during the Gamecube era revealed that DICE originally approached Nintendo with Battlefield and proposed it as a Nintendo exclusive. Nintendo were apparently very excited about the game but it never came into existence because of the Gamecube’s basically non-existent online infrastructure.

http://mynintendonews.com/2011/11/2...tlefield-to-nintendo-as-a-gamecube-exclusive/

 

[WickedLaharl]

Watch this. Seriously, at least get halfway through it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WUf5U_sEWA

that dude is tushy troubled