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[Sqorgar]

What? How do you exactly do they earn that? I thought being a functioning member of society was enough but aparently there is something that im missing here. I really want you to explain yourself because it sounds really problematic in the way you phrased it.

Several people have taken offense at that comment, so I should address it.

Basically, as human beings, everybody is afford some level of dignity and respect with regard to how they deserve to be treated. I acknowledge that even when they deserve to be treated such, it is not always something that happens. That is a bad thing, and I will fight as hard as anybody to put an end to such practices.

But I think the trans community's sensitivity tends to want more than they are naturally entitled to as fellow humans. It extends to, and beyond, having to agree with them on many controversial subjects, and being punished for suggesting things that the community has deemed offensive. I get that words like "tranny" and "ladyboy" are hurtful words that have no place in polite discussion, but I don't get why saying that "girls have a vagina" is such an offensive statement that it deserves the vitriol and aggression it gains in response.

The trans community has decided to frame this behavior as one of respect. I don't think that's completely honest, but the impression I get is that if you disagree with the trans community, you are transphobic, an asshole, and somehow ignorant. I find this odd because a great many of the things they consider an immutable good haven't properly been discussed and agreed upon by those outside the community. It's good for them, sure, but is it good for everybody? Nobody knows because everybody aren't invited to the table to talk about it.

In short, the trans community dictates the terms for interacting with it with an iron fist. It can be quite oppressive and sometime frightening. If it is a problem of respect, I do not think they've earned it.

I think a transgendered person is a human, and as such deserves all the praise and glory that comes with such a privilege. But they are also just a human, and that comes with a lot of insecurities, anger, and resentment as well. I think the trans community is filled with insecurity, anger, and resentment - I don't see how anyone could suggest otherwise - and I think those lesser qualities have informed many of the public policies they have adopted. I'm not saying they are wrong. I'm saying they could be wrong, and because they won't let anyone question them, they have put a cooling effect on true discussion about their community and how it should be treated.

Long story short, people are afraid to engage them, and I think they like it that way. I have a problem with that.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Or, you know, you can get rid of any qualifier and start the sentence with "People." Is that more or less offensive? Is it more or less valid? I honestly can't tell, these topics on GAF are always such a fucking disaster.

It's the outright gall of a minority group being labeled all sorts of terrible and incorrect things for decades, and the second they want to say for themselves who and what they are, they're immediately told that they have to "earn" the approval of the majority that never had to earn any approval, or that labels and qualifiers suddenly aren't important the second that they want to pick one for themselves.

 

[TouchMyBox]

1)
Sign up for the mailing list via their website: http://thefullbrightcompany.com/

2)
Follow the fullbright team on twitter:

https://twitter.com/fullbright
https://twitter.com/zusty
https://twitter.com/johnnemann
https://twitter.com/koalaparty


3)
When given the opportunity, do the right thing.

4)
Listen to Idle Thumbs frequently in order to catch some Hot Scoops.

 

[Jintor]

Rather good article popped up on my feed.

Our editor just couldn’t understand how Krahulik could possibly hurt those brands with such an unforced error as making blatantly anti-transgendered comments on twitter. For those who don’t want to read the comments, Krakulik essentially said that trans people are just people in elaborate drag.

But I’m not sure that Krahulik sees himself in the same light as my editor and indeed, much of the gaming world.

Krahulik has said that he sees himself as just the art guy on some stupid webcomic. Both he and the other half of the Penny Arcade comic team — writer Jerry Holkins — have often expressed befuddlement at their brand’s success, seeing themselves as just a couple of guys who write a sometimes offensive online comic strip that somehow spawned an impressive gaming empire around them.

Of course, the problem is that, whether they like it or not, Penny Arcade is more than that.

Krahulik and Holkins are the public faces of a company, and make a point of being in front of everything it does. They emcee several aspects of the massive Penny Arcade Expos. They host the auction dinner for their still growing gaming charity Child’s Play. They provide the characters for their yearly Dungeons & Dragon’s podcast with Wil Wheaton.

Sure, a lot (most) of the work putting these events together belongs to their team, led by their Business Development Guru Robert Khoo, but both the Penny Arcade creators put their personal stamps on everything associated with the brand.

Whether they like it or not, they are both inextricably tied to Penny Arcade.

This means that every time they say something stupid it hurts not just them, but the entire empire they’ve built, an empire based around community and inclusiveness.

http://business.financialpost.com/2...roblem/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

[Kade]

Good on them. The Penny Arcade guys were always disgusting grognards and I hope more developers pull out of PAX.

 

[BiggNife]

Did you just go through my post history and find that one post, or did you read the entire thread and the context in which it was written?

There is a wide gulf between Gabe making a statement like "girls have vaginas" and the trans community getting upset because this doesn't gel well with the version of the world they prefer to be true and Gabe purposely insulting people to their face, making fun of rape victims, and being responsible for his fans harassing victims by threatening to rape them more.

And you've characterized my statement incorrectly. My response was to this question:


Yes. When people are being hurt, I expect every person involved to start acting like an adult - Gabe especially in that case. My entire stance in that thread was that Gabe was being a dick and didn't understand how his actions were literally triggering rape victims with PTSD. It was not a response to "why people were getting so worked up over the Dickwolves thing".

I didn't go through your post history. I remembered you saying that, because I read the thread when the controversy was happening and I remember how upset you were about it. Because it was hard to read that thread and and NOT notice how upset you were about it, honestly.


When Gabe is telling trans people stuff like "I can tell people I'm Batman but that doesn't mean it's true" to their face, do you know how insulting that is to someone who must have gone through a ton of public scrutiny to change their identity? Do you have any idea at all?

I really can't comprehend that you don't understand why trans people are being hurt by these comments. Out of curiosity, do you know anyone who is trans? I'm going to guess no.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Pretty sure a private event with a small, limited number of panels is not it. They aren't obligated to give a microphone to every random person who asks for it. Penny Arcade has 100% full control over which panels are allowed to speak at their convention, and free speech has nothing to do with it.

Oh absolutely. PAX is free to do as PAX wants. And that includes having speakers that some people disapprove of.

But my point was that people are attempting to dictate what PAX should do and using PAX being a private event as a defense against that being stifling speech. If it isn't stifling speech then there must actually be some venue where someone isn't going to dictate what speech is acceptable. I would like to know where that venue is. If they will protest this speech everywhere then they actually are stifling speech.

 

[Van Owen]

I'm not buying their game out of protest of them not attending PAX out of protest.

 

[thumb]

Oh absolutely. PAX is free to do as PAX wants. And that includes having speakers that some people disapprove of.

But my point was that people are attempting to dictate what PAX should do and using PAX being a private event as a defense against that being stifling speech. If it isn't stifling speech then there must actually be some venue where someone isn't going to dictate what speech is acceptable.

Publicly owned areas in the US are generally places where people can gather to voice their opinions without formal interference or prior approval, though details vary depending on location and gathering size.

 

[odiin]

Good on Fullbright, hopefully this encourages PA to reassess the way they handle these situations.



Almost none of the complaints have been centered around the comic, they've been about the way they've handled themselves outside of the comic. Being entertainers doesn't exempt them from all criticism.

Fair enough. It's just that these are ultimately two friends who make a web comic together. They cuss, they fart, they say obnoxious things sometimes just like every one else. It just seems weird to me that they're being held to a higher standard here. They're basically just two regular dudes who write a funny comic about games yetare expected to act like industry professionals which they have sort of become but only because of their popularity stemming from being regular dudes like who write a funny comic about games. I'm legitimately curious where the line is that moves them from being able to sometimes say dickish things like we all sometimes do, to having people get up in arms and start boycotts over them.

For their part I feel like the devdlopers are overreacting. They should have just come out and said that they disagreed with some of the PA guys' statements and been done with it. This is akin to demonizing and disassociating yourself a buddy because they were ki.d of being a dick that one time. Save the boycotts for people like Chris Brown and Roman Polanski.

 

[Jintor]

They're also the face of a major charity and three major gaming expos, a couple of videogames and I'm pretty sure at least one gaming scholarship. We're not talking Tim Buckley here.

For their part I feel like the devdlopers are overreacting. They should have just come out and said that they disagreed with some of the PA guys' statements and been done with it. This is akin to demonizing and disassociating yourself a buddy because they were ki.d of being a dick that one time. Save the boycotts for people like Chris Brown and Roman Polanski.

Well, they said that, and then they said if they said it and continued to attend PAX it'd amount in their eyes to tacit acceptance of their comments. That's their call to make.

 

[rohlfinator]

But my point was that people are attempting to dictate what PAX should do and using PAX being a private event as a defense against that being stifling speech.

Key word being "attempting". At the end of the day no one can dictate anything except Penny Arcade themselves. All anyone else can do is talk about it or pull their financial support.

If it isn't stifling speech then there must actually be some venue where someone isn't going to dictate what speech is acceptable. I would like to know where that venue is. If they will protest this speech everywhere then they actually are stifling speech.

You have freedom of expression in whatever medium you choose. But other people are also free to criticize your expression, and nobody has the obligation to promote or distribute your expression.

 

[beastmode]

Looks like plenty of shortsightedness and reactions to reactions all round. I don't think responding to exclusion by excluding is a very good strategy.

 

[Illithid Dude]

Honestly, PAX has grown beyond Penny Arcade, and is now the biggest consumer oriented video games convention in America. To pull out hurts the gamer much more then it hurts Mike and Jerry.

 

[aeolist]

Several people have taken offense at that comment, so I should address it.

Basically, as human beings, everybody is afford some level of dignity and respect with regard to how they deserve to be treated. I acknowledge that even when they deserve to be treated such, it is not always something that happens. That is a bad thing, and I will fight as hard as anybody to put an end to such practices.

But I think the trans community's sensitivity tends to want more than they are naturally entitled to as fellow humans. It extends to, and beyond, having to agree with them on many controversial subjects, and being punished for suggesting things that the community has deemed offensive. I get that words like "tranny" and "ladyboy" are hurtful words that have no place in polite discussion, but I don't get why saying that "girls have a vagina" is such an offensive statement that it deserves the vitriol and aggression it gains in response.

The trans community has decided to frame this behavior as one of respect. I don't think that's completely honest, but the impression I get is that if you disagree with the trans community, you are transphobic, an asshole, and somehow ignorant. I find this odd because a great many of the things they consider an immutable good haven't properly been discussed and agreed upon by those outside the community. It's good for them, sure, but is it good for everybody? Nobody knows because everybody aren't invited to the table to talk about it.

In short, the trans community dictates the terms for interacting with it with an iron fist. It can be quite oppressive and sometime frightening. If it is a problem of respect, I do not think they've earned it.

I think a transgendered person is a human, and as such deserves all the praise and glory that comes with such a privilege. But they are also just a human, and that comes with a lot of insecurities, anger, and resentment as well. I think the trans community is filled with insecurity, anger, and resentment - I don't see how anyone could suggest otherwise - and I think those lesser qualities have informed many of the public policies they have adopted. I'm not saying they are wrong. I'm saying they could be wrong, and because they won't let anyone question them, they have put a cooling effect on true discussion about their community and how it should be treated.

Long story short, people are afraid to engage them, and I think they like it that way. I have a problem with that.

holy shit dude

seriously what is wrong with you

 

[Brian Griffin]

I don't get why saying that "girls have a vagina" is such an offensive statement that it deserves the vitriol and aggression it gains in response.

You admit you don't get it and yet your post continues and you make all kinds of conclusions based on assuming people are overreacting. Have you stopped to consider that maybe people aren't overreacting? That maybe this whole thing has blown up because asserting that genitals=gender is really hurtful to people who don't fit that rule? Unless you are the target of hurtful words how can you possibly judge how people should feel about them? Pro tip: you can't. It's like telling a kid who skinned his knee that "it doesn't hurt". If people are saying his words are hurtful it's probably because they are. Just because you don't find them hurtful or understand why doesn't change anything about how others feel.

That being said, I don't think it's "girls have a vagina" that people are really upset about. It's that after people pointed out that trans people exist he basically said "I do not care about your feelings, trans people. I feel that genitals dictate if you are a man or women."

 

[Elaugaufein]

Key word being "attempting". At the end of the day no one can dictate anything except Penny Arcade themselves. All anyone else can do is talk about it or pull their financial support.



You have freedom of expression in whatever medium you choose. But other people are also free to criticize your expression, and nobody has the obligation to promote or distribute your expression.

*nod* This is one of those things I suspect I'll never really like the answer too. A part of me finds the idea that you still have "free speech" even if the only place you're allowed to speak, due to societal pressure, is where nobody can hear you objectionable. But there isn't a meaningful solution that doesn't in someway silence those who would object to it.

 

[BillyBats]

Reading through this thread, what are all these horrible things Gabe has done? I used to read their site a lot but got warned by a mod that I was being an asshole. LOL, I didn't agree and haven't visited their site all that much for a year. I never really delved that deep into Dick wolves and such. I have no idea what that means or what "cis" means.

 

[thumb]

Reading through this thread, what are all these horrible things Gabe has done? I used to read their site a lot but got warned by a mod that I was being an asshole. LOL, I didn't agree and haven't visited their site all that much for a year. I never really delved that deep into Dick wolves and such. I have no idea what that means or what "cis" means.

We are not your Google search. Read and discern for yourself the measure of his actions, which not everyone has called categorically "horrible".

 

[Kade]

Reading through this thread, what are all these horrible things Gabe has done? I used to read their site a lot but got warned by a mod that I was being an asshole. LOL, I didn't agree and haven't visited their site all that much for a year. I never really delved that deep into Dick wolves and such. I have no idea what that means or what "cis" means.

I think everything has been said in the OP and throughout the thread so maybe you missed it. For the rest, Google.com has the scoop.

 

[rohlfinator]

*nod* This is one of those things I suspect I'll never really like the answer too. A part of me finds the idea that you still have "free speech" even if the only place you're allowed to speak, due to societal pressure, is where nobody can hear you objectionable. But there isn't a meaningful solution that doesn't in someway silence those who would object to it.

Yeah, I agree that there's not really a great answer. Free speech is ultimately a societal construct that's subject to the limitations that society decides to put on it.

I think there are a good amount of avenues where "anything goes", to some extent. But in this case I don't think PAX is one of them.

 

[Anoregon]

holy shit dude

seriously what is wrong with you

There couldn't be a more perfect response to prove his point.

 

[pushBAK]

MEH. I don't think Mike was intentionally trying to piss anyone off, and a lot of people are overreacting.

Basically, this;

Several people have taken offense at that comment, so I should address it.

Basically, as human beings, everybody is afford some level of dignity and respect with regard to how they deserve to be treated. I acknowledge that even when they deserve to be treated such, it is not always something that happens. That is a bad thing, and I will fight as hard as anybody to put an end to such practices.

But I think the trans community's sensitivity tends to want more than they are naturally entitled to as fellow humans. It extends to, and beyond, having to agree with them on many controversial subjects, and being punished for suggesting things that the community has deemed offensive. I get that words like "tranny" and "ladyboy" are hurtful words that have no place in polite discussion, but I don't get why saying that "girls have a vagina" is such an offensive statement that it deserves the vitriol and aggression it gains in response.

The trans community has decided to frame this behavior as one of respect. I don't think that's completely honest, but the impression I get is that if you disagree with the trans community, you are transphobic, an asshole, and somehow ignorant. I find this odd because a great many of the things they consider an immutable good haven't properly been discussed and agreed upon by those outside the community. It's good for them, sure, but is it good for everybody? Nobody knows because everybody aren't invited to the table to talk about it.

In short, the trans community dictates the terms for interacting with it with an iron fist. It can be quite oppressive and sometime frightening. If it is a problem of respect, I do not think they've earned it.

I think a transgendered person is a human, and as such deserves all the praise and glory that comes with such a privilege. But they are also just a human, and that comes with a lot of insecurities, anger, and resentment as well. I think the trans community is filled with insecurity, anger, and resentment - I don't see how anyone could suggest otherwise - and I think those lesser qualities have informed many of the public policies they have adopted. I'm not saying they are wrong. I'm saying they could be wrong, and because they won't let anyone question them, they have put a cooling effect on true discussion about their community and how it should be treated.

Long story short, people are afraid to engage them, and I think they like it that way. I have a problem with that.

 

[teiresias]

I have to side with the Penny Arcade guys on this one.

Oh? Tell me more about how you support rape culture and believe that being transgendered is a mental illness.

 

[soapOD]

There couldn't be a more perfect response to prove his point.

Nail on the head - unwarranted aggression to counter someone's personal view on what it means to be a human being. Trans people are no more special than any other type of person (including straight white males) and they don't deserve any special attention, coddling, or reparations.

 

[thumb]

Oh? Tell me more about how you support rape culture and believe that being transgendered is a mental illness.

While I don't agree with the person you're quoting, lets not conflate the "dickwolves" debate with this debate.

 

[Velcro Fly]

I think what he said comes from ignorance and not malice and that things like this are massive overreactions. Instead of having an intelligent discussion, it turns into insults, death threats, and a take my ball and going home mentality. If someone is ignorant, you educate them. It's pretty dumb to say these types of things especially on the internet because you are bound to offend people but the overreactions have almost been as bad.

 

[thumb]

Several people have taken offense at that comment, so I should address it.

Basically, as human beings, everybody is afford some level of dignity and respect with regard to how they deserve to be treated. I acknowledge that even when they deserve to be treated such, it is not always something that happens. That is a bad thing, and I will fight as hard as anybody to put an end to such practices.

But I think the trans community's sensitivity tends to want more than they are naturally entitled to as fellow humans. It extends to, and beyond, having to agree with them on many controversial subjects, and being punished for suggesting things that the community has deemed offensive. I get that words like "tranny" and "ladyboy" are hurtful words that have no place in polite discussion, but I don't get why saying that "girls have a vagina" is such an offensive statement that it deserves the vitriol and aggression it gains in response.

The trans community has decided to frame this behavior as one of respect. I don't think that's completely honest, but the impression I get is that if you disagree with the trans community, you are transphobic, an asshole, and somehow ignorant. I find this odd because a great many of the things they consider an immutable good haven't properly been discussed and agreed upon by those outside the community. It's good for them, sure, but is it good for everybody? Nobody knows because everybody aren't invited to the table to talk about it.

In short, the trans community dictates the terms for interacting with it with an iron fist. It can be quite oppressive and sometime frightening. If it is a problem of respect, I do not think they've earned it.

I think a transgendered person is a human, and as such deserves all the praise and glory that comes with such a privilege. But they are also just a human, and that comes with a lot of insecurities, anger, and resentment as well. I think the trans community is filled with insecurity, anger, and resentment - I don't see how anyone could suggest otherwise - and I think those lesser qualities have informed many of the public policies they have adopted. I'm not saying they are wrong. I'm saying they could be wrong, and because they won't let anyone question them, they have put a cooling effect on true discussion about their community and how it should be treated.

Long story short, people are afraid to engage them, and I think they like it that way. I have a problem with that.

Who is "the trans community"? Why do you think they speak with anything approaching a single voice?

Edit - My use of the term "heterosexual" in my unedited example could have implied that I believed it to be opposite to transsexual, which it is not. A better analogy would be talking about a "cisgedered" community, though I'm not fond of the term.

 

[Sqorgar]

You admit you don't get it and yet your post continues and you make all kinds of conclusions based on assuming people are overreacting.

This isn't the first time transgender issues have created a shitstorm in the gaming community, and I think there is enough of a pattern of behavior to be able to draw conclusions from.

Have you stopped to consider that maybe people aren't overreacting?

Yes. I've come to the conclusion that there are several other ways this situation could've been handled, but the fact that it has come down to death threats and public boycotts makes me think that high emotion is in the driver's seat.

That maybe this whole thing has blown up because asserting that genitals=gender is really hurtful to people who don't fit that rule?

Perhaps it is so hurtful precisely because the trans community has built such a righteous shield around itself that any slight, no matter how small, is seen as a personal attack on everything they are and hold dear. Reacting is not the same as overreacting.

Unless you are the target of hurtful words how can you possibly judge how people should feel about them? Pro tip: you can't. It's like telling a kid who skinned his knee that "it doesn't hurt". If people are saying his words are hurtful it's probably because they are. Just because you don't find them hurtful or understand why doesn't change anything about how others feel.

I'd suggest that maybe some thicker skin is called for, but that may be seen as insensitive.

Things are not getting better for the trans community and they may in fact be losing progress because of it. It's similar to how feminism grew. At least some part of it went militant, and now feminism has become a dirty world. Compare that to how the gay community has handled their rights and see how they didn't let the most militant amongst them become their singular public voice.

That being said, I don't think it's "girls have a vagina" that people are really upset about. It's that after people pointed out that trans people exist he basically said "I do not care about your feelings, trans people. I feel that genitals dictate if you are a man or women."

I still don't see how that is such an egregious breach of conduct. It's not nice, but he isn't exactly preaching oppression or acting upon it. It's just a jerk saying jerky things. Sticks and stones.

I think it's okay to insult the trans community. It's not nice, but they aren't special. They aren't that fragile. They want everybody to think they are, but I've known people who were that fragile and they would never respond to offense with full on aggression. If they can dish it out, they can take it.

 

[Snowden's Secret]

Oh? Tell me more about how you support rape culture and believe that being transgendered is a mental illness.

I... wuh... this can't be a real response.

I can't even... what?

 

[Sqorgar]

Who is "the trans community"? Why do you think they speak with anything approaching a single voice?

I don't want to get bogged down with semantics, but I define it as the collective voice of a group of people bound by their interest in transgendered issues. I'd suggest that perhaps the majority of the people speaking for this community are not transgender or even affected by the issues, but choose to do what they see as the right thing by the community of their peers.

I guess you could say that the community is not everybody, but the impression given by the loudest voices speaking on their behalf.

 

[teiresias]

I... wuh... this can't be a real response.

I can't even... what?

I'll let the rape culture thing go, but if someone holds the opinion that gender identity is strictly dictated by the genitalia attached to one's body, then by definition that person must believe that there is a mental problem in someone that has a penis but identifies as female.

 

[thumb]

I think it's okay to insult the trans community. It's not nice, but they aren't special. They aren't that fragile. They want everybody to think they are, but I've known people who were that fragile and they would never respond to offense with full on aggression. If they can dish it out, they can take it.

I really think you should reconsider what you're saying, and really give it some thought. And if you have the belief that it is "okay" to insult people for something like that, maybe you should leave this thread, because I'm not sure what you can contribute.

 

[spandexmonkey]

I really think you should reconsider what you're saying, and really give it some thought. And if you have the belief that it is "okay" to insult people for something like that, maybe you should leave this thread, because I'm not sure what you can contribute.

He's contributing to the discussion, on the other hand your call for him to leave simply because you disagree with him (without addressing any of his points) is not very productive.

 

[guek]

I'll let the rape culture thing go, but if someone holds the opinion that gender identity is strictly dictated by the genitalia attached to one's body, then by definition that person must believe that there is a mental problem in someone that has a penis but identifies as female.

This is not what Mike has said -_-;

For the billionth time, there is a distinction between biological gender and gender identity. Mike was talking about the former in an insensitive manner and people took it as a qualitative statement about the latter.

 

[guek]

I really think you should reconsider what you're saying, and really give it some thought. And if you have the belief that it is "okay" to insult people for something like that, maybe you should leave this thread, because I'm not sure what you can contribute.

He didn't say it's ok to insult the trans community because they are trans. That you would immediately make that assumption though is pretty much par for the course. While I wouldn't use the word insult, I don't think any adult or group of adults, regardless of how marginalized they have or haven't been, are exempt from critique.

 

[Jintor]

I might suggest that trans people might not actually be on this equal footing with non-trans people in terms of general societal perception, and that probably affects the way they speak out over issues related to them. Denying a person's self-perception and sense of identity, whether born of ignorance or of malice, is simply not a positive thing to react to. I would argue that in general the trans community is constantly challenged on their sense of self-identity and to have that attacked - however innocuously - by a public figure is something absolutely worth responding to.

Obviously there is a fair amount of taking it too far in response, but Gabe really should have done what his first instinct was to do and either ignored the conversation as a whole or engaged solely with the reasonable respondents. But to claim that the trans community doesn't have issues to deal with in vastly disproportionate numbers, relative to the 'norm', is a bit disingenuous. They often don't have legal protection of their identity, there's still major levels of social exclusion, and as we've seen demonstrated here they occasionally get castigated as being mentally ill or somehow in opposition to reality. It's not exactly a barrel of laughs.

 

[Le Singe]

Perhaps it is so hurtful precisely because the trans community has built such a righteous shield around itself that any slight, no matter how small, is seen as a personal attack on everything they are and hold dear. Reacting is not the same as overreacting.

Wait, they're righteous because they respond violently to your basic denial of their existence?
Who would have thought? I mean, you are willing to concede that they are human(how empathetic of you) but obviously with your vagina remark do not see them the same way they see themselves. I can see why they would be so invested in affirming their identity but why are you so invested in denying it?

 

[The Librarian]

Several people have taken offense at that comment, so I should address it.

Basically, as human beings, everybody is afford some level of dignity and respect with regard to how they deserve to be treated. I acknowledge that even when they deserve to be treated such, it is not always something that happens. That is a bad thing, and I will fight as hard as anybody to put an end to such practices.

But I think the trans community's sensitivity tends to want more than they are naturally entitled to as fellow humans. It extends to, and beyond, having to agree with them on many controversial subjects, and being punished for suggesting things that the community has deemed offensive. I get that words like "tranny" and "ladyboy" are hurtful words that have no place in polite discussion, but I don't get why saying that "girls have a vagina" is such an offensive statement that it deserves the vitriol and aggression it gains in response.

The trans community has decided to frame this behavior as one of respect. I don't think that's completely honest, but the impression I get is that if you disagree with the trans community, you are transphobic, an asshole, and somehow ignorant. I find this odd because a great many of the things they consider an immutable good haven't properly been discussed and agreed upon by those outside the community. It's good for them, sure, but is it good for everybody? Nobody knows because everybody aren't invited to the table to talk about it.

In short, the trans community dictates the terms for interacting with it with an iron fist. It can be quite oppressive and sometime frightening. If it is a problem of respect, I do not think they've earned it.

I think a transgendered person is a human, and as such deserves all the praise and glory that comes with such a privilege. But they are also just a human, and that comes with a lot of insecurities, anger, and resentment as well. I think the trans community is filled with insecurity, anger, and resentment - I don't see how anyone could suggest otherwise - and I think those lesser qualities have informed many of the public policies they have adopted. I'm not saying they are wrong. I'm saying they could be wrong, and because they won't let anyone question them, they have put a cooling effect on true discussion about their community and how it should be treated.

Long story short, people are afraid to engage them, and I think they like it that way. I have a problem with that.

Dude if you don't watch it you're gonna get knocked down by the iron fist of the trans community.

 

[thumb]

He didn't say it's ok to insult the trans community because they are trans. That you would immediately make that assumption though is pretty much par for the course. While I wouldn't use the word insult, I don't think any adult or group of adults, regardless of how marginalized they have or haven't been, are exempt from critique.

Insult and critique are very different words. I was replying to a post that generalizes trans people or "the trans community" as believing they are special and fragile and so forth. There's no evidence offered, just generalizations and polemics.

So if he really means, "trans people who fit my stereotype deserve to be insulted," well, okay. So maybe it's time to talk about who he thinks those people are why he is letting them represent the "community" in his mind.

 

[mollipen]

In short, the trans community dictates the terms for interacting with it with an iron fist. It can be quite oppressive and sometime frightening. If it is a problem of respect, I do not think they've earned it.

The "trans community" is not the Borg. Like any other community, there are people who are pretty militant in their opinions, and there are people who are understanding of the fact that those outside of the community don't fully understand their position, and the only way that they will understand is through mature conversations and education.

So, it's pretty crappy to just lump everyone together and say that they haven't earned respect.

And the reality of the situation is that the understanding of trans issues among typical society is still pretty low. We're still at the point where the idea of somebody being transgender is still weird and unusual to a lot of people, so there's a lot of misunderstanding and incorrect assumptions. We've seen the same situation exist when dealing with those in non-Christian religions, gays/lesbians, racial minorities, or a variety of other groups. At first, the divide between the majority and minority in that situation is wide, and that lack of understanding can be very frustrating for those who simply want to be treated as equals.

Most of the time, I try my best to be calm and collected when the trans topic comes up on here, but even I can't take it sometimes. As I said before, there's a lot of conversation that goes on about those who are trans, and it feels like often people don't actually care about having that discussion with the people they're talking about. Points want to be made, opinions expressed, but not actual, real dialog. I know that's the problem you say you have with the trans community, but it's also hugely evident in the other side as well.

And just like it'd be unfair of me to say that people outside the trans community refuse to listen—because that's false, as many people are open to being educated—it's unfair for you to paint the trans community as one big whole who all act the same. That's not the case. I do understand why that feeling comes up, just as I understand why those who are trans get so annoyed and angered at having to have the exact same conversation over, and over, and over.

When you have so many people who have never been in your shoes telling you how you're supposed to live and who you're really supposed to be, it gets hard to deal with after a while.

 

[EviLore]

I think it's okay to insult the trans community. It's not nice, but they aren't special. They aren't that fragile. They want everybody to think they are, but I've known people who were that fragile and they would never respond to offense with full on aggression. If they can dish it out, they can take it.

I think we need a ToS translation for imbeciles. It can just read, "don't be an asshole." You're one of those. Too late to be of any help, though.

 

[Jintor]

Well, damn.

 

[The Librarian]

Dude if you don't watch it you're gonna get knocked down by the iron fist of the trans community.

I think we need a ToS translation for imbeciles. It can just read, "don't be an asshole." You're one of those. Too late to be of any help, though.

I was right!

 

[Replicant]

Good. I used to like PA but lately their attitude reeks arrogance and often company-shilling

 

[Spongebob]

This whole situation comes off as being incredibly ridiculous to me.

 

[Brian Griffin]

Aaannnd boom goes the dynamite.

Back to the actual topic, here's hoping I check the internet tomorrow and see more companies reacting in similar fashion as Fullbright. EvilLore's comment goes right in line with that this whole thing boils down to, just don't be an asshole. Mike was being an asshole, admitted he was and then kinda told everyone to fuck off and leave him alone. I really like PAX and PA so I would like it if its creators and leaders were people I could respect.

I was right!

Soo, uh, what do you think the next Lotto numbers will be?

 

[JasonUresti]

Aaannnd boom goes the dynamite.

Back to the actual topic, here's hoping I check the internet tomorrow and see more companies reacting in similar fashion as Fullbright. EvilLore's comment goes right in line with that this whole thing boils down to, just don't be an asshole. Mike was being an asshole, admitted he was and then kinda told everyone to fuck off and leave him alone. I really like PAX and PA so I would like it if its creators and leaders were people I could respect.


Soo, uh, what do you think the next Lotto numbers will be?

That is a poor way to look at someone. I can respect someone and at the same time not like some of the views they hold. Mike of Penny Arcade is not just some guy who has a view of trans people that you find distasteful. Like all people, there is a lot more to him than that. Mike's also a guy who has battled his own personal demons to make a successful life for himself and his family. Neither one cancels out the other, it's part of the same person.

 

[jim2point0]

Was his follow-up posted?

Sums up how I saw the scenario play out. He made a comment that he didn't realize was offensive... and he got responded to with people wishing he'd DIE. I'd probably get pretty upset over that too. Lashing out sarcastically to that sorta thing would be reasonable if you're just any old person.... but I don't think he realizes how many eyes are on him. But I can see through that whole situation and realize that he's not someone that hates transgendered people and is not transphobic.

 

[Wolves Evolve]

I love this stuff. People genuinely think the accusation of being a bigot is as hurtful as the discrimination LGBT people face. Twitter outrage culture is great for shaking down these things piece by piece and finding out just how hilarious people are.