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GAF Indie Game Development Thread 2: High Res Work for Low Res Pay

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Photoshop CS2 was free with an Adobe ID registration.

This is a sort of misleading statement to make - Adobe EOLed CS2 and provided existing customers with a serial key for it and final patched disk image that means it can be reinstalled without any authentication checks, but they were really explicit that this was not intended to be free CS2 for everyone as soon as the link to the support page went viral as "free CS2 for all!" across the internet and all the links and information were moved from a publically accessible help page to a registered users access only page.

I mean, the end result is you can obtain CS2 for free, but its not strictly 100% above board legal to do so and falls under the same grey area as abandonware does.
 
I still use my £20 cd rom copy of paint shop pro 8, it lacks a lot of tools but it's got enough to do everything I need with it.

PSP8 and Fusion 2.5 is all I use for my games.

Have a screeshot of a tree.

slEHDGv.png
 

Burt

Member
More like a question, specifically why include a crafting system.

Seriously most games include it "because reasons" cuz it's very rarely necessary, especially for a game like that.

Also please oh God don't handle leveling the way Tactics Ogre did, game got so slow trying to grind up new classes I had to quit.

I'm going with a crafting system mostly because I can't really stand the notion of shops in these types of games. I just don't buy that after every battle every shopkeeper has magically upgraded their inventory to a level and story-appropriate degree. Plus, in an Ogre Battle-style game, a map might have 7-8 towns, and I don't like the concept of having to dig through all of them to find a shop, every town having a shop, or having an 'incorporeal' shop on the world map screen.

So, as a solution, you'll get a crafter/smithy that joins your party fairly early on which can be accessed via the world map or your HQ/camp on a battle bap, most mats will be plentiful, and (as of now) crafting will be fairly straightforward, possibly straight out of a manual TO-style. Rare mats will be rarer, obviously, and I think the possibility of hidden recipes is worth tooling with.

I also don't plan to have crafting be all that essential, at least for now. Initially, most of the game's best equipment will be found/dropped, and crafting will serve as a stopgap for characters that don't get their hands on a dropped item. I have equipment split up into 5 tiers right now, so as an example in the first tier crafted items give +15 in a single stat or +8 in two stats. On the other hand, 'found' items have better and more fluid stats. For instance, +12 in one stat and +9 in the other, or +20 in a single stat. That discrepancy will even out over the course of the game as you get better at crafting (possibly via quests to upgrade your crafter's tools) and you gain access to rarer and rarer mats. You won't be doing as much crafting as something in TO regardless, because as I have it now, characters can only equip 1 item at a time. I'm much happier with a character having a single signature item than having to equip all 40-50 characters with "Leather Jerkin... Buckler.... Iron Sword". That stuff gets on my nerves.

As for leveling, it should be much faster than in TO. As of now, there are 4 base classes for generic units, all of which start at rank 0. Every battle is worth 1 experience point to every class involved, and every 10 experience points a class gains a rank. Every rank they gain increases in 3 stats automatically and 1 you can choose for yourself. At rank 3, each class gets two classes to upgrade into, which both follow the same process. It sounds like a lot of battles, but these are just typical turn-based JRPG battles that go a lot faster than something like TO. The second tier of classes should be available within the first 3-5 maps.

There won't be any grinding for new classes, either. I'll also probably have a ceiling on class advancement so that even if you grind one class to rank 3 before the others, you won't be able to upgrade any class until a certain point. Should help with the overleveling issue.
 

Kalnos

Banned
Oh, and anyone in Louisville? I'll be moving back there in the near future and would like to join some meetups if possible.

Actually, yes. I have never gone to a meetup but IIRC they're at LVL1 which is a really cool place to go if you like electrical/mechanical engineering projects.
 
I only did some light reading on the subject so far and it all seems really daunting. I want to dive in on it probably after finishing what I'm doing game wise but maybe I'm still a little green to do it right. I need a "procedual generation for babies" kind of guide lol.

I would love to see those examples you made too!

You can start with the baby of all babies, wikipedia :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procedural_generation#Arcade_games

after that you can jump to some light reading at http://pcg.wikidot.com/pcg-algorithm:dungeon-generation

and after that maybe you can try to play with this http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/dungeon/
it will give you some basic concepts of what you need as rules so you can see your outputs

after that is all about your imagination, is all about putting order in the random world, if you want more coherent randomness you start after that with noise functions and more advanced techniques

The only thing I don't really have an idea how to do yet is procedural music that can sound good, I can only make crap music because I don't know how to compose, and haven't been able to find anyone doing good procedural music to copy their ideas/concepts yet, except for one or two examples but those generate classic music which doesn't apply to my game :p
 
So here's a bit of an issue that is specific to iOS...

Running on an iPad:
badness.png


What they look like everywhere else on Mac, PC, Android, Linux, etc:
1a5e140ec1-ENEMY-tardigrade-WEBSITE.gif

85a2f03be8-ENEMY-wasp-FINAL.gif


Basically - anything with an animation looks like a blurry mess for some reason. I am quite stumped.
 

friken

Member
Wow. That looks excellent. I'll have to make sure to contribute before it ends. At this rate, you should get funded with no troubles.

On a side note, my game finally got Greenlit! Took a while, but we got there.

Like some other folks here, I'm gonna try to be more active in this thread and others. Too much stuff going on, but I need to work on being more "out there" than I have been. Regardless, it's good to see other people's projects.

Oh, and anyone in Louisville? I'll be moving back there in the near future and would like to join some meetups if possible.

Congrats EDarkness! I think we all go through patches that we don't get a chance to post as often as we would like. I know I do.
 

cbox

Member
So here's a bit of an issue that is specific to iOS...

Running on an iPad:
badness.png


What they look like everywhere else on Mac, PC, Android, Linux, etc:
1a5e140ec1-ENEMY-tardigrade-WEBSITE.gif

85a2f03be8-ENEMY-wasp-FINAL.gif


Basically - anything with an animation looks like a blurry mess for some reason. I am quite stumped.

Are you exporting them at twice the resolution you normally would? ( for retina screens )
 
Basically - anything with an animation looks like a blurry mess for some reason. I am quite stumped.

I'm not familiar with iDevices, but thats clearly an interpolation issue - does iPad automatically scale with nearest neighbour filtering? Are there any scaling options you can manually set?
 

Jarekx

Member
Neat idea overall. And as for the part about trying to achieve puzzle like combat, I've been hoping to achieve the same with my own game. It's definitely really tricky business.

It's really been the most difficult thing for me. Once I implement all the base ideas I think it'll be easier to know if it's possible with the combat I've created. Hopefully, we both figure it out.

I still use my £20 cd rom copy of paint shop pro 8, it lacks a lot of tools but it's got enough to do everything I need with it.

PSP8 and Fusion 2.5 is all I use for my games.

Have a screeshot of a tree.

slEHDGv.png

I like that tree.
 
Are you exporting them at twice the resolution you normally would? ( for retina screens )
Truthfully I know jack about iOS quirks :(

Is that a normal route? If so I can just batch scale all of my sprites - but the funny thing is - many sprites without animations look 100% fine so I'm stumped. They are all Po2 and I do use point filtering on other devices to make sure there is no filtering applied.

I'm not familiar with iDevices, but thats clearly an interpolation issue - does iPad automatically scale with nearest neighbour filtering? Are there any scaling options you can manually set?

I have no clue, truthfully. My first bout with mobile stuff and Android is breeze in almost every regard including its respective store compared to Apple's offerings. I will have to search and fiddle for the time being.
 
Might be worth changing colour depths too I guess if its trying to best match using a full colour pallette instead of just your actual used colours?

Aye. I'm going to try a bunch of stuff and slap it all in one build then see what sticks, tbh. Still researching but I haven't found anything remotely close to my issue of it being animated objects only.
 

snarge

Member
Learning how to procedual generate worlds and stuff is actually one of the things I really want to learn next. Is there any good tutorials/resources that dive into that?

I found these article, specific to Unity, very helpful:

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/JayelindaSuridge/20130903/199457/Modelling_by_numbers_Part_One_A.php

It's a 4 part series, and all 4 parts should be read.
Even if you're not using Unity, there's a lot of great content there. Plus, the output is gorgeous, better than most proc generated stuff imo.
 

kiguel182

Member
You can start with the baby of all babies, wikipedia :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procedural_generation#Arcade_games

after that you can jump to some light reading at http://pcg.wikidot.com/pcg-algorithm:dungeon-generation

and after that maybe you can try to play with this http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/dungeon/
it will give you some basic concepts of what you need as rules so you can see your outputs

after that is all about your imagination, is all about putting order in the random world, if you want more coherent randomness you start after that with noise functions and more advanced techniques

The only thing I don't really have an idea how to do yet is procedural music that can sound good, I can only make crap music because I don't know how to compose, and haven't been able to find anyone doing good procedural music to copy their ideas/concepts yet, except for one or two examples but those generate classic music which doesn't apply to my game :p

Thanks for the help/advice! Procedual generation is a fascinating thing. Hopefully I'll get the hang of it.

I found these article, specific to Unity, very helpful:

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/JayelindaSuridge/20130903/199457/Modelling_by_numbers_Part_One_A.php

It's a 4 part series, and all 4 parts should be read.
Even if you're not using Unity, there's a lot of great content there. Plus, the output is gorgeous, better than most proc generated stuff imo.

I'm using Unity so those articles are kind of perfect. Skimmed through the intro and it seemed really accessible too which is a plus. Thanks!

I'll have a lot to dive in once I'm through with my exams. My head is killing me right now.
 

Bit-Bit

Member
I still use my £20 cd rom copy of paint shop pro 8, it lacks a lot of tools but it's got enough to do everything I need with it.

PSP8 and Fusion 2.5 is all I use for my games.

Have a screeshot of a tree.

slEHDGv.png

I tried Fusion years ago and made a quick demo and remember it being incredibly easy to use. Probably the easiest out of all of the "no coding" engines that I've tried. However, I ended up not buying it because it couldn't export to Android. But it looks like that have full support for Android now. So can I get your thoughts on it? How's the support? I'm currently using Construct 2 and the forums are a great help. Does Fusion have that sort of support? And would you say it's still as easy to use as its always been?
 

Lautaro

Member
Ok, so I'm at the stage where I'm going to make a pause in the development of Nomad Fleet and start making a website, Twitter account, Facebook, etc. for my project. Do you have any tips? some twitters I should follow? some bullshit I should avoid?
 
Ok, so I'm at the stage where I'm going to make a pause in the development of Nomad Fleet and start making a website, Twitter account, Facebook, etc. for my project. Do you have any tips? some twitters I should follow? some bullshit I should avoid?
If in US: Hostgator is an amazing host and if you setup some type of website using WordPress talk to me so hackers dont break your install every 2 days. DO NOT use any provider "one-click" install in the back end, either. I'd write more but I'm on mobile. PM me if you have questions.
 

Kritz

Banned
Ok, so I'm at the stage where I'm going to make a pause in the development of Nomad Fleet and start making a website, Twitter account, Facebook, etc. for my project. Do you have any tips? some twitters I should follow? some bullshit I should avoid?

One thing that I learned about making websites when I built kritz.net, is that generally, you probably never actually want to program your own website. While it's fun as a learning exercise, and it's cool to say that you did everything yourself, it's just so much extra bullshit on top of all the extra bullshit you have to do when trying to make a game.

Web security's hard :(
 
So since I'm having so many issues with iOS I decided to break from it for a few and work on some "get out of jail" protection for getting trapped in collisions, stuck in collisions on objects, etc.

Not that this exact scenario here would ever be allowed from a design perspective by allowing the player to get squashed between 2 technically solid objects like this - but I have been able to get the player "inside" 2 objects at once and have him automatically pop back out using my custom collision protection. He has a tiny bit of jerk to him which I'm trying to bug out - or that's just the GIF - or that's just the Unity editor's natural rendering at 5k fps. Need to compile to be sure.

GIF http://stuff.absinthegames.com/getOuttaJail.gif
 
Great new OP!!!


The section about generating mindshare is a sweet addition. I had presskit working on my website but then like the day before announcement it all exploded. Really need to spend some time and get that working again.





I've been spending my time as of late world building. Since really the whole point of the game is discovering this world, I've basically become obsessed with over designing things. My in game language is what I'm currently working on.

The language is fully realized with its own custom grammar and rules. Right now it's at over 5,000 words, making it bigger than the fictional languages of Klingon from Star Trek and Navi from Avatar combined. Probably after finishing the game I'll go back and continue expanding the vocabulary. It's become like a hobby to me.
 
Yet another reason to not use Unreal Engine 4's Blue print: its a binary format and thus almost impossible to have multiple people working on simultaneously and if something breaks in it your only recourse is pretty much reverting to your last check in.
 
You cannot use it while also using newer features. You can still ask for an OpenGL 2.1 context instead and use glBegin/glEnd.

But if you want OpenGL 3.2+ you only get the core context without things like glBegin/glEnd.
Once you get the boiler plate code done its really not difficult to keep using the new style (called core) opengl contexts anyways. The only bad part is that most opengl tutorials are done using the old style (compatibility). Ultimately if you want to create a mobile game then you're going to be forced to use the new style as opengl es only allows core contexts.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Yet another reason to not use Unreal Engine 4's Blue print: its a binary format and thus almost impossible to have multiple people working on simultaneously and if something breaks in it your only recourse is pretty much reverting to your last check in.
Yet another reason? I'm not super familiar with UE4 (I used UE3 and UDK), but what are the other reasons?
 

bkw

Member
So since I'm having so many issues with iOS I decided to break from it for a few and work on some "get out of jail" protection for getting trapped in collisions, stuck in collisions on objects, etc.
I don't really have much insight, but does the issue only occur on certain enemies / sprites? I didn't notice any issues on my iPod touch 5th gen, but maybe I just haven't come across those enemies? Where and when do they spawn?

Just throwing that out there. Maybe it's not a general iOS problem, but one specific to iPad.
 
Relaxing with some alternative code has helped me refocus today, after all the issues I've been having with iOS. I decided to rewrite (again) they physics and collision driving STRAFE since he is so agile and fun to jump around with.

I got scalable collision and entrapment relief working spot on and I'm quite happy with it. Scaling allows me to adjust the size of collision on the fly even when colliding with objects and in the event the collider on any object is scaled - my entrapment relief kicks in based on collision of the objects similar to the GIF I posted up above. I'm fairly confident I can handle collision better than I ever have before.

Here's a new video showing the whole thing at work (1080/60):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTaJr1SkzKk

Great new OP!!!

The section about generating mindshare is a sweet addition. I had presskit working on my website but then like the day before announcement it all exploded. Really need to spend some time and get that working again.

Thanks, dude! I've been using presskit() without any issues. It really is a nice tool and recently just started using distribute(), as well. Been working handily, at the moment.

I've been spending my time as of late world building. Since really the whole point of the game is discovering this world, I've basically become obsessed with over designing things. My in game language is what I'm currently working on.

The language is fully realized with its own custom grammar and rules. Right now it's at over 5,000 words, making it bigger than the fictional languages of Klingon from Star Trek and Navi from Avatar combined. Probably after finishing the game I'll go back and continue expanding the vocabulary. It's become like a hobby to me.

Holy shit! That's crazy! How long has that taken you?

I don't really have much insight, but does the issue only occur on certain enemies / sprites? I didn't notice any issues on my iPod touch 5th gen, but maybe I just haven't come across those enemies? Where and when do they spawn?

Just throwing that out there. Maybe it's not a general iOS problem, but one specific to iPad.

I have multiple screenshots from various i* devices from multiple testers, unfortunately. They happen to anything with an animation attached, which is odd. Many of the environment objects like dust, stars, planets, nebulae, etc - don't animate, just move. But pretty much every enemy has a blur or smear to it that is driving me insane.
 
I still use my £20 cd rom copy of paint shop pro 8, it lacks a lot of tools but it's got enough to do everything I need with it.

PSP8 and Fusion 2.5 is all I use for my games.

Have a screeshot of a tree.

slEHDGv.png
Nakiti Lives! Where've you been?

I mean, the end result is you can obtain CS2 for free, but its not strictly 100% above board legal to do so and falls under the same grey area as abandonware does.
Fair enough, I will speak no more on the subject.
I've switched to Paint.net is an open source definitely free and Paint Tool SAI which is a very reasonable 5000 JPY($45 or so right now.)

The latest Photoshop is what, $10 a month? https://creative.adobe.com/plans
If you only need certain Photoshop features from time to time, grabbing a month when you need it might not be a bad idea.
 

bkw

Member
I have multiple screenshots from various i* devices from multiple testers, unfortunately. They happen to anything with an animation attached, which is odd. Many of the environment objects like dust, stars, planets, nebulae, etc - don't animate, just move. But pretty much every enemy has a blur or smear to it that is driving me insane.
Ah damn, now that I look closely I can see it. Didn't notice that it was glitching. How are you animating things in Unity?
 
taking about game engines for the indie community and poor ones with lots of ideas never seen before... have anyone tried Godot engine? www.godotengine.org/wp/blog/ I am curious about this engine and would like to know something from the people using it on the field, looks like a really good alternative solution to Unity but without all the costs
 

EDarkness

Member
Congrats EDarkness! I think we all go through patches that we don't get a chance to post as often as we would like. I know I do.

Thanks, man. Took a little while, but we made it. :)


Actually, yes. I have never gone to a meetup but IIRC they're at LVL1 which is a really cool place to go if you like electrical/mechanical engineering projects.

Okay. I'll look it up. I don't think we'll be in Louisville very long, but I figure it won't be a bad idea to get acquainted with indies there.

This weekend I'm going to be working on a lot of the database stuff. As of now gear and such have been stored in a extremely simple database. Gonna finally get off my ass and put together a real database and start adding all of the weapons and items I've written napkins over the past few months. Gonna be fun....
 
Man, that feeling when you just sit down, get in the zone, program a new feature/system and it ends up working perfectly without having to change anything is an indescribable feeling.

It doesn't happen often, but when it does I imagine that I look a bit like this:

I'll probably wake up tomorrow to find out that it doesn't work as perfectly as I thought it did, but I'm enjoying the moment while it lasts.

EDIT: Related, that feeling when you realize two hours passed without you noticing is both exciting ("I was so in the zone!") and terrifying ("Was I too far into the zone!?").
 

bkw

Member
How crazy is doing something like online multiplayer if you haven't dealt stuff like that before? Does using Unity making online any easier?

It'd be cool if my game had an online mode, but I have no idea what that entails. Gut feeling is that it's going to be a nightmare, but I really have no idea. I need to research, but I was wondering if anyone had any experience they could share.
 

Kritz

Banned
How crazy is doing something like online multiplayer if you haven't dealt stuff like that before? Does using Unity making online any easier?

It'd be cool if my game had an online mode, but I have no idea what that entails. Gut feeling is that it's going to be a nightmare, but I really have no idea. I need to research, but I was wondering if anyone had any experience they could share.

Unity's mp makes it easy even for idiots like me to make mp games. It's really easy to get the basics up, but there's some real time consuming shot that goes into MP. Any feature I add to my game then takes 4-10x longer to make it then work in multiplayer. You get faster at it as you go, but there's a process you have to formulate yourself for how to implement mp with each function. And the mental gymnastics of what to sync over a network and what to run client side are long and tedious and you often don't get the right implementation first try.

But, mp is cool and it makes games cool. So the headache feels worth it in the long run.
 

kamakazi5

Member
The language is fully realized with its own custom grammar and rules. Right now it's at over 5,000 words, making it bigger than the fictional languages of Klingon from Star Trek and Navi from Avatar combined. Probably after finishing the game I'll go back and continue expanding the vocabulary. It's become like a hobby to me.

This is probably one of the coolest things in this thread so far. I can't imagine how long that took.

I've made it my goal like most to post in the thread more this year and that includes posting my own stuff.
 

Five

Banned
I've been spending my time as of late world building. Since really the whole point of the game is discovering this world, I've basically become obsessed with over designing things. My in game language is what I'm currently working on.

The language is fully realized with its own custom grammar and rules. Right now it's at over 5,000 words, making it bigger than the fictional languages of Klingon from Star Trek and Navi from Avatar combined. Probably after finishing the game I'll go back and continue expanding the vocabulary. It's become like a hobby to me.

That's basically what Tolkien did. Lord of the Rings was a vehicle for the lore and languages he loved crafting. Including all the derivative words and declensions, Tolkien's Elvish has over 12,000 published words in it.
 
Working with 3ds max this last months to make the scenery for our hub has been great fun. Is like im playing Rollercoaster Tycoon 2 and 3 again and I can create creative buildings in 3D.

Of course there are always walls in the process where you have to lose time looking for tutorials, but apart from that it has been a smooth ride. I was afraid of texturing but that has also been easy.

I remember having a 3Ds max class at university, and the teacher we had made it shit and I never learned properly (passed the exam thanks to a friend showing me the basics to create a building and that was it). Such a waste of time, if only I knew what I know sooner...
 

Bit-Bit

Member
Did the first two tutorials for Fusion 2.5 .

It's still as easy as I remembered. Between GameMaker Studio, Construct 2, and Fusion 2.5, Fusion was the easiest for me to grasp right away. The way it's structured just makes more sense to me.

Now to port over my android game from Construct 2.
 
I forget who, but someone was lamenting that OpenGL tutorials are done in the modern version. Here's a great place to start:

http://www.opengl-tutorial.org/beginners-tutorials/tutorial-1-opening-a-window/

To be fair, this was after I took a graphics class, but you still should be able to follow along.
I remember years ago all you could find was nehe tutorials which were chock full of awful code and bad practices but was so popular because he was basically the only one that had taken the time to do a fair number of tutorials. I still shudder when I look at his code.
 
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