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[MikeE21286]

No one's arguing anyone's buying it for the game solely.

But most people are saying it doesn't matter what the intention is, it's still sold as game software with a pack-in accessory.

ok, well IMO that's silly. It's a controller. It does not reflect the Wii consumer's propensity to buy software at all.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

ok, well IMO that's silly. It's a controller. It does not reflect the Wii consumer's propensity to buy software at all.

You must be really dense.

Controller = 40 bucks

Will Play (controller + software) = 50 bucks

If ALL people wanted was the controller, there's a cheaper option. I mean really its not that hard of a concept.

 

[border]

Bad eyesight?

I should ask you the same.

Its probably about the same as the tie ratio would be without the most popular game of the gen being a GODDAMN PACK-IN deflating the numbers would be. :lol

I can't believe someone is arguing that Wii Sports isn't the most popular game of the generation.

Probably because there's some distinction to be made between sales and popularity (particularly when we're talking about games bundled with console hardware).

Ok, does that mean we shouldn't fully count the sales of all the games sold as collector's editions? I mean, they can usually cost anywhere up to 100 bucks and only $60 is the game!

Name another game where the "extras" in a collector's edition represent over 80% of its value and we'll talk about it. I would be inclined to count CEs because they are well above the cost of normal games, though. Wii Play is a $10 game that just inflates the numbers.

 

[Lyude77]

From my understanding, the PS3 was the most inexpensive Blu-Ray player for a long time post-launch, and it's still the most full featured player at its price. Why wouldn't someone who wants to watch movies, has no interest in games, and wants the best bang for their buck buy a PS3 only for non-gaming purposes?

I'm likely just being narrow-minded thinking that someone would buy a PS3 for gaming at all when it's a major function of it, but oh well. I understand why someone would do it initially, I just think they would give a game a try, I guess. I couldn't picture anyone buying the PS2 as a DVD player only either and not buying a game eventually with all of the amazing cheap games for it. I just think they'd at least buy one cheap game since they already made the somewhat large investment.

I admit though, I'm probably wrong.

 

[jeremy1456]

Probably because there's some distinction to be made between sales and popularity (particularly when we're talking about games bundled with console hardware).

In Japan isn't it by far the single best selling console game this generation?

 

[poppabk]

If I was a third party software developer I would want to see numbers that legitimately reflect what I can do.

If I was a third party developer I would probably want to know how well software in the same genre had sold, or software targeting the same demographic, price point etc (ie relevant data to how well my software will sell) not the ratio of software units/hardware units.
- "Should we release Imaginz:Barbie Horsez on Wii or 360"
- "360 has attach rate 8.3, Wii 6.2. Its a tough call, but probably 360."
- "Wait if you arbitrarily remove Wii Play from the Wii's total software because you can't stand to see it sell better than your favorite game you get an attach rate of 5.8"
- "Well then its a no brainer, 360 it is"

 

[MikeE21286]

You must be really dense.

Controller = 40 bucks

Will Play (controller + software) = 50 bucks

If ALL people wanted was the controller, there's a cheaper option. I mean really its not that hard of a concept.

Yeah, I'm dense..... :\


people are gonna buy a controller and they figure they can get a game for the extra $10.

like I said before....it's an extremely easy up-sell for employees at these B&M stores.

 

[Man God]

It was so hard to find Wii Play for months after it launched in America.

The tank game is genius. Easily worth the price of admission.

 

[markatisu]

It was so hard to find Wii Play for months after it launched in America.

The tank game is genius. Easily worth the price of admission.

They should add leaderboards and online play and release it as WiiWare, it would probably be a pretty big hit

 

[poppabk]

Name another game where the "extras" in a collector's edition represent over 80% of its value and we'll talk about it. I would be inclined to count CEs because they are well above the cost of normal games, though. Wii Play is a $10 game that just inflates the numbers.

Drums $99.99
http://www.redoctane.com/Guitar-Hero/Nintendo-Wii/Guitar-Hero-World-Tour-Wireless-Drum-Controller-Wii
Guitar $69.99
http://www.redoctane.com/Guitar-Hero/Nintendo-Wii/Guitar-Hero-World-Tour-Wireless-Guitar-Controller-Wii
Bundle $169.99
Software (lets just assume the mic is free) = 1c
Shit Wii attach rate just took another nosedive.

 

[w3stfa11]

I'm likely just being narrow-minded thinking that someone would buy a PS3 for gaming at all when it's a major function of it, but oh well. I understand why someone would do it initially, I just think they would give a game a try, I guess. I couldn't picture anyone buying the PS2 as a DVD player only either and not buying a game eventually with all of the amazing cheap games for it. I just think they'd at least buy one cheap game since they already made the somewhat large investment.

I admit though, I'm probably wrong.

My uncle bought a PS3 just for Blu-Ray viewing but he ended up buying a few games to play so he had entertainment when he had guests over. It'd still bring the tie ratio down, though.

 

[border]

Shit Wii attach rate just took another nosedive.

Well, that's kind of why I have made the distinction that Wii Play is bundled with an "essential" accessory (and did not go on to disregard other custom accessory bundles like EyeToy, Wii Fit). The Guitar Hero/Rock Band bundles are being bought on the strength of their software.....the custom hardware is just a means to enjoy the game.

 

[D.Lo]

I'd say a simple solution would be to consider Wii Play the equivalent of a downloadable title. It's about the same price, it just comes on a disc. So it's place in the picture isn't clear, as we don't know full downloadable game sales for each platform either, and they would affect retail game sales in a similar way.

Heck, I'd prefer it as a downloadable, then you could have a quick game. I haven't really played Wii Sports or Play in two years, largely because of the nuisance of getting the disc out and loading up for a 5-10 minute game. I bought Wild West Guns to have a Wii Play Shooting equivalent instantly accessible on the menu and have played it a low as a 'filler' game.

 

[nextgeneration]

The tank game is genius. Easily worth the price of admission.

Agreed. This is a great, great co-op game.

 

[donny2112]

I'd say a simple solution would be to

I would say the simple solution would be to let NPD decide what to do with their own dang numbers. Someone wants to go in after the fact to adjust totals based on their own personal tastes? Great. If you're going to ask what the tie ratio is in the U.S. from NPD numbers, though, then you don't really get to pick and choose.

 

[Cipherr]

Probably because there's some distinction to be made between sales and popularity (particularly when we're talking about games bundled with console hardware).

It doesnt bloody matter, stop trying to argue the semantics. It is by far one of, it not the most played game of this freaking generation. And it being a pack in at the very LEAST equalizes ANY EFFECT WHATSOEVER THAT WIIPLAY HAS ON THE TIE RATIO.

Discussion over. Shutup about it. Seriously.

 

[markatisu]

I would say the simple solution would be to let NPD decide what to do with their own dang numbers. Someone wants to go in after the fact to adjust totals based on their own personal tastes? Great. If you're going to ask what the tie ratio is in the U.S. from NPD numbers, though, then you don't really get to pick and choose.

And that is important because NPD has some kind of criteria for why they classify what they do, the Wii Zapper with Links Awakening was originally considered an accessory but then recently was moved into the software category by NPD (which is why it now resides in the Wii Top 10)

 

[cakefoo]

lemme try this one out...

Pretty good tie ratio for 360 users considering since it's been out some 360 owners bought a second, third or fourth console solely because of the red rings.

is that how it works?

seriously, the amount of people who bought another 360 because of the red rings or bought a ps3 only for bluray is miniscule.

I'm sure the number of people who bought another 360 instead of taking advantage of the 3 year warranty is indeed miniscule. But I'd guess it would affect the tie ratio enough for me to take notice if I wanted to pay more attention to 360.

As someone who spent/spends a decent amount of time in Blu-ray forums, especially during the Q3-Q4 2007 period, I can say that there were ~300k Blu-ray standalones and ~700k HD DVD during that time, definitely, and Blu-ray software was outselling HD DVD 2:1, again, definitely. We'll never know how many of those early PS3 owners were using it for Blu-ray only, but we can guess based on polls and surveys that around 70% of PS3 owners weren't watching any Blu-rays, so about 1 in 3 PS3 owners (1M of ~3M by the end of '07) was contributing to Blu-ray movie sales. My guess is those 1M were buying movies as frequently as any other HD DVD and Blu-ray standalone owner, because the 1M PS3s combine with the 300k Blu-ray standalones for 1.3M, which is nearly 2:1 HD DVD's 700k userbase, and that would be proportionate with Blu-ray's 2:1 software lead. It's my guess that those 1M PS3 owners bought it for games as a secondary use, rather than primary. Now, this is where the 200k number I pulled out my ass should be starting to make sense: It's also my guess that roughly one out of five of the 1M heavy Blu-ray-buying PS3 owners had no interest in videogames, buying a PS3 solely for the fact it was more future-proof than the standalone players. 300k bought a standalone by that time, so is it hard to imagine 200k buying the PS3 instead for $399, regardless if they hate games?

Also, consider the many NPD threads where PS3 versions of games didn't perform well in proportion to its install base. And even though it's mostly trolling when people say it's just a Blu-ray player, there is a tiny tiny smidgen of truth to it, and I think tracing it back to 2007 and the format war is where the brunt of those Blu-ray shoppers did indeed pick it up with no intent to ever explore videogames beyond Solitaire.

There's something else I wanted to say, but I forgot what it was... Oh right, how that 200k affects the tie ratio. Instead of a 6.5 tie ratio, it would be about 6.7. So when it's all said and done I think my 200k figure is accurate, but it's probably not as big of a difference-maker as I thought it would be. I was thinking it would be more like half a game.

I'm surprised at the Wii: 6.2 games per console. Who says you have to be hardcore to buy a lot of games?

 

[poppabk]

So if I am reading this graph correctly, its the 360's first month that sets it ahead of the other systems. Beyond the first month the average slopes look pretty close for all 3 systems. Anyone got an explanation for this, is this what we would expect to see for a console with a higher attach rate?

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

So if I am reading this graph correctly, its the 360's first month that sets it ahead of the other systems. Beyond the first month the average slopes look pretty close for all 3 systems. Anyone got an explanation for this, is this what we would expect to see for a console with a higher attach rate?

The hardest of the hardcore all went out and bought the 360 day one along with a whole swag of games.... but nobody else did. The casuals started buying later. The PS3 and Wii launched a year afterwards, but to a much broader audience.

 

[legend166]

Probably because there's some distinction to be made between sales and popularity (particularly when we're talking about games bundled with console hardware).

Well, yes. I'm not going to argue that Viva Pinata is the most popular game of this generation, just because it was bundled with the Xbox 360.

Because that would be stupid. Just like saying that Wii Sports is not the most popular game of the generation would also be stupid. I don't understand why you're arguing this. It's self evident. It's a cultural sensation. It's this generation's Grand Theft Auto, or Super Mario Bros, or whatever other generation defining title you want to throw into that list.

Why are you arguing this? Which title do you believe is more popular?

 

[RedRedSuit]

U.S. only figures. So... yeah.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Are people in here arguing that people are buying Wii Play and not the controller?

Not a damn person is buying that game if it doesn't come with a controller and is not an easy up-sell for employees at Best Buy, Gamestop, etc....

I personally bought WiiPlay for my sister and her two small children. Had the remote not come with the game, I would have only bought a remote for them.

 

[Rhindle]

So if I am reading this graph correctly, its the 360's first month that sets it ahead of the other systems. Beyond the first month the average slopes look pretty close for all 3 systems. Anyone got an explanation for this, is this what we would expect to see for a console with a higher attach rate?

That's not correct - if it was only the first-month 360 buyers who bought more games, then the lines would eventually converge. The fact that they move in parallel (more or less), means that the 360 owners are continuing, on average, to consistently buy more games per console.

U.S. only figures. So... yeah.

This is important to keep in mind. I expect that the 360 and Wii tie ratios are substantially lower in Europe and elsewhere, due to the high piracy impact.

 

[Jocchan]

I should ask you the same.

Yeah, probably. I assumed you were talking about Stumpokapow's post. But this doesn't make your argument less silly. I'll give you a hint: all software does count in software sales.
If you start removing titles arbitrarily following any line of reasoning, you're changing factual data into something that isn't factual but a subjective idea of what's worth tracking (and it's not that useful, don't you agree?).

 

[Kenka]

Nintendo should just bundle some third-party software and everybody would shut up.

Which is sad, think about it :

If all the spins in this thread would be porn, I would have enough stuff to fap on for the rest of my life.

Remove the spins and the fun is gone. Oh shit.

 

[Jocchan]

That's not correct - if it was only the first-month 360 buyers who bought more games, then the lines would eventually converge. The fact that they move in parallel (more or less), means that the 360 owners are continuing, on average, to consistently buy more games per console.

Wrong, all three are following about the same trajectory with a different offset only due to the initial value (yes, initial value has a constant effect).
For the lines to converge, 360 tie ratio should deviate from this trajectory negatively (software sales slowing down or hardware sales surging more than software) or PS3 and Wii should deviate positively.

 

[poppabk]

Wrong, all three are following about the same trajectory with a different offset only due to the initial value (yes, initial value has a constant effect).
For the lines to converge, 360 tie ratio should deviate from this trajectory negatively (software sales slowing down or hardware sales surging more than software) or PS3 and Wii should deviate positively.

Yeah thats what I find interesting about the graph, its like 360 owners went crazy buying software, buying in their first month what Wii owners and PS3 owners (as a whole) took 1 year to buy, but then after this initial flurry of activity the attach rate increased by 1 for every 5 months, the same as for the other consoles.

 

[kkg1701]

Yeah thats what I find interesting about the graph, its like 360 owners went crazy buying software, buying in their first month what Wii owners and PS3 owners (as a whole) took 1 year to buy, but then after this initial flurry of activity the attach rate increased by 1 for every 5 months, the same as for the other consoles.

It could simply be a difference in initial userbase. That is the vast majority that initially bought a 360 were "hardcore" (gamers who play a lot of games). While both Wii and PS3 had a high amount of "casuals" (for Wii people who initially were satisfied with WiiSports, and for PS3 people who mainly bought it as a BluRay-player).


KK

 

[lowlylowlycook]

This is important to keep in mind. I expect that the 360 and Wii tie ratios are substantially lower in Europe and elsewhere, due to the high piracy impact.

So THIS is why Sony is still the unofficial leader of the industry. Makes sense now.

 

[Jocchan]

Having a tie ratio of 4 one month after release is pretty much insane.
However, the three curves might look similar, but have slightly different steepness (if you consider their growth linear to ignore fluctuations, you end up with the highest for the PS3, the lowest for the 360 and the Wii being somewhere in the middle).

It's pretty imprecise (due to said fluctuations) and close to the dreaded realm of pixel counting, but - unless trends change drastically from now on - it suggests the 360 might end up losing its lead in tie ratio before it's all said and done.

Spoiler

Not that it matters, tie ratio by itself is pretty much useless by now

.

 

[poppabk]

It could simply be a difference in initial userbase. That is the vast majority that initially bought a 360 were "hardcore" (gamers who play a lot of games). While both Wii and PS3 had a high amount of "casuals" (for Wii people who initially were satisfied with WiiSports, and for PS3 people who mainly bought it as a BluRay-player).


KK

But this would mean that after this initial burst the "hardcore" stopped buying games at an increased rate. The 360 attach rate was always considered a sign of an extremely software hungry group of consumers, but this suggests that those consumers were pretty much sated after one month of insane buying. There isn't even much evidence to suggest that it is a dilution of the "hardcore" userbase over time as its almost an instantaneous effect. I'm wondering if it is an HD effect, that people went out and bought multiple games because they were so impressed with the graphical progression that the 360 had made, and wanted to experience it and show it off.

 

[carbonbased]

I'm surprised at the Wii: 6.2 games per console. Who says you have to be hardcore to buy a lot of games?

it's an entire-family oriented console. mom buys Wii Fit and some other exercise bullshit, dad plays Resident Evil 4 and House of the Dead, little Cindy gets her We Cheer and Barbie's Horse Penetration Adventure, and young Bobby has Mario Galaxy and Animal Crossing.

hell, grandma would probably enjoy some horse action as well.

 

[Peronthious]

hell, grandma would probably enjoy some horse action as well.

 

[Stinkles]

answer this question: can microsoft or sony make software like wii play and sell ten million units?

if the answer is yes: well then why shouldn't we count it? they can do it but don't. it's not an unfair advantage that microsoft and sony choose not to do it.

if the answer is no: so there's something unique about wii play that can only be done on the wii? it's complex enough or hard enough to get right that you don't think the other manufacturers can do it? that's a reason TO count it.

saying software doesn't count because it's a good value is totally off the wall

Exactly. Everyone I know who bought Wii Play was shocked to find a free controller in the box.

 

[Rhindle]

Wrong, all three are following about the same trajectory with a different offset only due to the initial value (yes, initial value has a constant effect).
For the lines to converge, 360 tie ratio should deviate from this trajectory negatively (software sales slowing down or hardware sales surging more than software) or PS3 and Wii should deviate positively.

Maintaining the same "trajectory" means that the whole 360 user base, on average, must continue to buy a higher number of games per console than the PS3 user base or the Wii use base, which was my point.

If it was only an initial burst of purchases by early 360 adopters, followed by a long period of equal attach ratios across all consoles, and accross a growing base, the line trajectories would NOT be constant. The 360's overall tie ratio's rate of growth would decline as the effect of the large initial purchases is dissipated across a larger user base, and the lines would converge.

 

[poppabk]

Exactly. Everyone I know who bought Wii Play was shocked to find a free controller in the box.

Shit, I threw my box away.

 

[Dragon]

So THIS is why Sony is still the unofficial leader of the industry. Makes sense now.

Your vendetta is getting tired.

Donny is right, NPD counts their numbers a certain way, it's up to them to decide. This isn't TheBranca18's tie-ratio analysis because if it was it'd be Sony 1 million 360 0.5% Nintendo 1 quid. Seriously guys get over the Wii Play/Wii Sports thing. It's becoming more pathetic than anything else at this point.

 

[Jocchan]

Maintaining the same "trajectory" means that the whole 360 user base, on average, must continue to buy a higher number of games per console than the PS3 user base or the Wii use base, which was my point.

No, it doesn't. Tie ratio is just software divided by hardware. That's it.
And this is what makes the tie ratio by itself almost useless now: it doesn't take into account ownership time, and high hardware sales tend to bring tie ratio down (newcomers will have less games than early adopters that owned the console for years).

If it was only an initial burst of purchases by early 360 adopters, followed by a long period of equal attach ratios across all consoles, and accross a growing base, the line trajectories would NOT be constant. The 360's overall tie ratio's rate of growth would decline as the effect of the large initial purchases is dissipated across a larger user base, and the lines would converge.

EDIT: disregard this part of my post (wrong assumption).
Ever heard of Maths? Initial value is a constant offset throughout the whole graph of a function.

y = x
y = x + 2

These two functions have the same trajectory (with the same steepness, 1), but the second one - thanks to the addition of a higher initial value (the added 2) - will track higher. They will not converge, ever.

 

[Haunted]

They're bundling a controller with Wii Play now? I just bought it for the awesome tank game.

 

[Jocchan]

They're bundling a controller with Wii Play now?

Shit, I bought it for the awesome tank game.

Not only that. They're also bundling Wiis with Wii Sports.

 

[FiRez]

360 : 8.3
PS3 : 6.5
Wii : 6.2

this is very close to my collection

 

[Haunted]

Not only that. They're also bundling Wiis with Wii Sports.

:lol suuure.

Next you'll tell me they've added some software thingamajig to the Balance Board.

 

[Jocchan]

:lol suuure.

Next you'll tell me they've added some software thingamajig to the Balance Board.

I have bad news for you, man...

 

[Omar Ismail]

Ever heard of Maths? Initial value is a constant offset throughout the whole graph of a function.

y = x
y = x + 2

These two functions have the same trajectory (with the same steepness, 1), but the second one - thanks to the addition of a higher initial value (the added 2) - will track higher. They will not converge, ever.

I love when people get all indignant when they're actually missing the point/wrong.

What Rhindle is saying is that if people stopped buying 360 games NOW, but continued to buy 360 hardware then the tie ratio would start decreasing, and thus converge and then drop below the other lines.

The fact that the tie ratio continues to increase for all three consoles means that the software "hunger" of all three console bases is increasing, which makes sense with an always more diverse line-ups, budget games, etc.

The initial offset/resulting slope in the graph can be explained with a multitude of reasons.

1) Hardcore picked up the console early, everybody else just buys 5 games each, while the hardcore continue to buy 20, 30, 40 games and rising.

2) everybody is buying 8

and all kinds of data in-between.

In fact you could argue that the PS3's steeper slope is a sign of a more hardcore dominated base, it just starts at a smaller number because the percentage of hardcore is smaller relative to 360. Also pulled down by "blu-ray" buyers.

So... really this data is interesting, but without standard deviation information is difficult to come to conclusions. I think more interesting is the number of monthly software units sold per console.

 

[Jocchan]

I love when people get all indignant when they're actually missing the point/wrong.

What Rhindle is saying is that if people stopped buying 360 games NOW, but continued to buy 360 hardware then the tie ratio would start decreasing, and thus converge and then drop below the other lines.

The fact that the tie ratio continues to increase for all three consoles means that the software "hunger" of all three console bases is increasing, which makes sense with an always more diverse line-ups, budget games, etc.

The initial offset/resulting slope in the graph can be explained with a multitude of reasons.

1) Hardcore picked up the console early, everybody else just buys 5 games each, while the hardcore continue to buy 20, 30, 40 games and rising.

2) everybody is buying 8

and all kinds of data in-between.

In fact you could argue that the PS3's steeper slope is a sign of a more hardcore dominated base, it just starts at a smaller number because the percentage of hardcore is smaller relative to 360. Also pulled down by "blu-ray" buyers.

So... really this data is interesting, but without standard deviation information is difficult to come to conclusions. I think more interesting is the number of monthly software units sold per console.

Indignant? No, maybe too picky because tie ratio doesn't tell anything like that.
Of course if 360 owners stopped buying games the tie ratio would decrease, but tie ratio growing hasn't anything to do with hunger. It's a consequence of ownership time, and it naturally tends to increase over time.
I kind of agree with the rest of your post, though, and yes: total software units sold is much more useful right now.

 

[A Twisty Fluken]

I agree, bundling a console with a $250 sports game collection has proven itself as a much better idea.

This is the best quote of the thread. Do a find and replace with Super Mario Bros. and see what you get.

BTW, on the Wii Play thing, I think people calling it a $10 game are missing the point. I'll bet a lot of people looked at it as getting a $25 game and a $25 controller, making it a deal for both, and making them more likely to buy Wii Play than just buy a straight Wiimote. The bundle this way drove more adoption of both.

 

[poppabk]

Indignant? No, maybe too picky because tie ratio doesn't tell anything like that.
Of course if 360 owners stopped buying games the tie ratio would decrease, but tie ratio growing hasn't anything to do with hunger. It's a consequence of ownership time, and it naturally tends to increase over time.
I kind of agree with the rest of your post, though, and yes: total software units sold is much more useful right now.

Yeah the linear increase in attach rate of roughly 1 per 5 months is indicative of an initial rapid decrease in demand for software (on a per console basis), which eventually evens off at a similar constant for all consoles - roughly 1 game every 2 months per console (if my math is correct).

 

[Vinci]

Which title do you believe is more popular?

Wii Fit is in the running. But yeah, anyone dismissing Wii Sports is doing the title a disservice. It sold separately from the Wii in Japan and had no trouble selling ridiculous numbers. And that's in Japan, which is basically handheld land this go-around.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Not a perfect match, but close enough to be interesting:

there arent hundreds of thousands of people who bought a ps3 solely as a blu ray player.

Perhaps not, but with the information we have access to, can we possibly know one way or the other?

What happened between Wii's month 17 and month 24? There seems to be a slowdown in tie ratio growth which would seem to indicate a MASSIVE surge in hardware sales.

That would basically be the March 2008 - October 2008 period, where hardware sales averaged about 660K/month. This is up from its previous non-holiday average of about 390K.

It's worth noting, though, that while the absolute numbers were up, the userbase wasn't growing as quickly per month on a percentage basis as 2007, since it had already grown pretty large. January 2008 was the first month where it grew by less than 10%, and it didn't again until November 2008.

it wasn't a pack-in in Japan and it's the most popular console game of the generation...

While this is true, it's worth noting that Wii Fit is probably going to steal that crown this year.

So if I am reading this graph correctly, its the 360's first month that sets it ahead of the other systems. Beyond the first month the average slopes look pretty close for all 3 systems. Anyone got an explanation for this, is this what we would expect to see for a console with a higher attach rate?

The way the tie ratio looks at the first month is really unimportant for any of those systems. X360 only sold about a third of a million hardware units that first month, so even with a tie ratio of 4, that month makes up 1% of its software sold overall. Whether its tie ratio had been 0 or 10 that month, it would change the current tie ratio by a very small fraction.