Support NeoGAF

[Dictator93]

Hello and welcome to the Game Engine Technology Thread on NeoGAF!
Are you tired of bickering about graphics entering your favorite thread? Well thankfully this thread can now act as a repository for reflected and thoughtful discussion of
graphics technology to get those posters out of your hair! This thread will be dedicated to discussing the technology and craft behind making video game graphics.
But this endeavour is not for the feint of heart. It will not devolve into a pointless mud flinging, drive-by posting rife with uninformed and flame war-like attitudes as in
other threads of a similar nature. Posting will have to be backed up with reasoning, like-for-like comparison and analogy, and uncompressed videos and images
demonstrating points. Comparisons between games and game engines should serve to point out interest facets of one game engine in comparison to another or to
highlight interesting differences. This is not about crowning kings in a face-off like manner. So leave your fanboy hat, emotional pleas, and .jpegs at the door! This
thread could/should also serve an educational function to anyone on Neogaf interest in learning or discussing video game graphics.

1. We have to speak on a similar level - no bad mouthing users for their preferences - rather argue against reasoning for said preferences.
2. We need a common language - all too often people use nebulous words like "lighting" to describe something which has nothing to do with how game engines commonly
light or shade surfaces - ergo we should break down what really should be meant by terms like "image quality", "lighting", "shading", "post-processing" and otherwise. If you
would like to make a dedicated and linked post to the OP regarding one of these topics, please post your desire!
3. Uncompressed images and (largely) uncompressed video is mandatory. This thread will not allow .gifs or .jpgs. Please use high quality .png, .webm, or upload videos to
Gamersyde / other high quality hosting websites (Youtube 4K suffices IMO). This is 2015. 56K users need not apply.
4. If you are curious about graphics, and do not know something, just ask a question!​

----
Descriptive mega-posts:

1. Hardware Specification Information - RAM? CPU? GPU? VRAM? All this is explained succinctly in a great post by Durante.
2. Post-Processing - including terms like bloom, motion blur, depth of field (dof), etc.
3. Anti-Aliasing (AA) - From hardware Multi-sample AA, SGSSAA all the way to modern temporal methods​

 

[Noobcraft]

Neat thread idea. I'm not graphics savvy enough to give any meaningful input/debate, but I guess this is a place where questions can be asked too?

I thought this was a nice touch in ROTR. I don't think I've seen a projector cast an image onto a character before in a game. It seems fancy.

 

[KKRT00]

Neat thread idea. I'm not graphics savvy enough to give any meaningful input/debate, but I guess this is a place where questions can be asked too?

Yeah, i think this is the best thread for asking questions, if people giving answers will give good and researched answers.
I think this thread is also cool for posting quite unique technologies in game engines.

Btw subscribed

 

[Havel]

.

 

[diaspora]

Neat thread idea. I'm not graphics savvy enough to give any meaningful input/debate, but I guess this is a place where questions can be asked too?

I thought this was a nice touch in ROTR. I don't think I've seen a projector cast an image onto a character before in a game. It seems fancy.

Watch_Dogs had this IIRC. Aiden's hotel room.

 

[PensOwl]

Neat thread idea. I'm not graphics savvy enough to give any meaningful input/debate, but I guess this is a place where questions can be asked too?

I thought this was a nice touch in ROTR. I don't think I've seen a projector cast an image onto a character before in a game. It seems fancy.

I remember being real disappointed that the projector in cs_office didn't do this. I wonder if that changed for cs_go?

 

[Durante]

The most exciting new thing for me recently in graphics technology are all the amazing uses for dynamic distance field data (as available in UE4.9+).

E.g. one of my (many) pet peeves with graphics is flowing water reacting to obstacles. So far, you had either manual techniques which take a lot of effort, or offline computation which can't react to dynamic changes. Not so with distance field materials.

Of course, you can also use distance fields for lots of other things like AO, efficient GPU-based particle collision, and volume decals.

 

[Dictator93]

Neat thread idea. I'm not graphics savvy enough to give any meaningful input/debate, but I guess this is a place where questions can be asked too?

Of course, I added that to the OP.

I thought this was a nice touch in ROTR. I don't think I've seen a projector cast an image onto a character before in a game. It seems fancy.

That would be, based upon what I can see, a projection texture from caster spot light. I am breaking my own rule right now by posting this, but early examples of it can be found in Source Engine games (but apparently not cs_office according to the above), Splinter Cell (Unreal 2.5), idTech 4 and in this original Unreal Engine 3 demo.
Here are some screens from my collection to show how it can be used:

Doom 3 can only render stencil shadows with hard distinct lines as per the shadows in image 1. But notice the shadows from the grating on the right-hand side wall in image 2: which are soft and have a gradation. That is just a faked texture projection casting from the light's perspective onto the world. If that texture were animated, you could also use it for a film projector like in tomb raider.
----
I am currently preparing a megapost on post-processing btw.

 

[nOoblet16]

Neat thread idea. I'm not graphics savvy enough to give any meaningful input/debate, but I guess this is a place where questions can be asked too?

I thought this was a nice touch in ROTR. I don't think I've seen a projector cast an image onto a character before in a game. It seems fancy.

Splinter Cell Conviction did it, even for texts that were used for mission objectives which were projected onto an environment object. The video projection that you see in the second image is not from a projector but rather used to show a flashback but it's the same thing as a projector.

I am breaking a rule here but wanted to show an example of how it exists in other games.

 

[Noobcraft]

Splinter Cell Conviction did it.

That's a really cool effect. Thanks everyone for the responses.

 

[etta]

But this endeavour is not for the feint of heart. It will not devolve into a pointless mud flinging, drive-by posting rife with uninformed and flame war-like attitudes as in other threads of a similar nature.
-----
3. Uncompressed images and (largely) uncompressed video is mandatory. This thread will not allow .gifs or .jpgs.

Nice!
My favourite tech that started out with the new gen is probably PBR. It has a tremendous effect on how realistic objects and material look in the game.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Subbed.

 

[Drama Zed Nod]

Awesome thread Dictator93.

I will sub and add as i go.

Also glad to see that ROTTR projection effect here, i just noticed that the other day.

 

[Ryoku]

Nice!
My favourite tech that started out with the new gen is probably PBR. It has a tremendous effect on how realistic objects and material look in the game.

I see this a lot on the forum, calling PBR a new technology, when in reality it's just a different technique using the same technology. You can actually get similar results using the old technique of creating shaders, though it requires more work.

https://www.marmoset.co/toolbag/learn/pbr-conversion

 

[nOoblet16]

PBR isn't a technology, it's a rendering pipeline. It's more akin to a method/philosophy of rendering rather than a tech in itself.

Which is why there were games even last gen that used it or alteast tested the waters. The quality achieved depends a lot on the quality of the shader and lighting used and hence it didn't look as convincing last gen as it does this gen due to lower quality lighting and shading than this gen.

 

[hesido]

The jpg restriction is a bit excessive IMHO. If the picture gets the point across, shouldn't matter if it's compressed or not.

 

[lazygecko]

PBR isn't a technology, it's a rendering pipeline. It's more akin to a method/philosophy of rendering rather than a tech in itself.

Which is why there were games even last gen that used it or alteast tested the waters. The quality achieved depends a lot on the quality of the shader and lighting used and hence it didn't look as convincing last gen as it does this gen due to lower quality lighting and shading than this gen.

The overall lighting of last gen I felt was kind of problematic at times since texture standards changed to be as flat and neutral as possible regardless if it was PBR or not. So if the lighting conditions weren't optimal at all times, which it often wasn't, then everything would end up looking unnaturally flat and dull. Prior to that, light-based shading and stuff was often baked into the textures to various extent, and although more primitive it at least looked more consistent, instead of looking great at times and awful at other times. It was a big graphical pet peeve of mine, along with going from sharp stencil shadows to dynamic, yet laughably low res and flickery shadows.

I feel as though we often over-reach technology wise and adopt standards before they really get the time needed to mature, and thus graphics evolution seems to happen in a very two-steps-forward-one-step-back kind of way.

 

[icecold1983]

does anyone have any info on the wire aa avalanche talks about just cause 3 using?

http://www.dsogaming.com/news/avalanche-details-differences-between-mad-max-just-cause-3-engines/

i remember an old Hummus demo, and i believe he works for avalanche but from what i can see, thin wire like geometry doesnt seem to fare better here than in any other fxaa/smaa applied game.

 

[etta]

Well, regardless of that, we didn't have material looking this good last gen:

 

[icecold1983]

Does anyone else now think that games without effective use of PBR almost always look last gen?

 

[blu]

Neat thread idea. I'm not graphics savvy enough to give any meaningful input/debate, but I guess this is a place where questions can be asked too?

I thought this was a nice touch in ROTR. I don't think I've seen a projector cast an image onto a character before in a game. It seems fancy.

That's elementary projective texturing. Think Voodoo2-age tech.

 

[etta]

Does anyone else now think that games without effective use of PBR almost always look last gen?

Somewhat. Just Cause 3 looks pretty last-gen in terms of material, Black Ops 3 is much better and looks very much like a new-gen game, even though I don't think it uses PBR.
But a perfect example of this question is Witcher 3, Geralt's armor looks really nice, but the rest of the world is apparent that it lacks PBR.

 

[icecold1983]

Somewhat. Just Cause 3 looks pretty last-gen in terms of material, Black Ops 3 is much better and looks very much like a new-gen game, even though I don't think it uses PBR.
But a perfect example of this question is Witcher 3, Geralt's armor looks really nice, but the rest of the world is apparent that it lacks PBR.

treyarch classifies black ops 3 as pbr, but IMO its not very effective

 

[etta]

Hmm, didn't know that Black Ops 3 was done with PBR. Yea, I guess it's all about how much work they put into the texture. Halo 5 has really nice PBR, same for Witcher 3 armor, then there's Battlefront that has probably the best usage of PBR so far.

 

[icecold1983]

battlefront does have a pretty strong implementation for sure

 

[Ryoku]

Does anyone else now think that games without effective use of PBR almost always look last gen?

Games that utilize ineffective implementation of PBR tend to have textures that look terrible. Fallout 4 would be a great example of this. Everything looks like plastic.

 

[SunBroDave]

Nice thread idea. Subbed.

 

[Nokterian]

Splinter Cell Conviction did it, even for texts that were used for mission objectives which were projected onto an environment object. The video projection that you see in the second image is not from a projector but rather used to show a flashback but it's the same thing as a projector.



I am breaking a rule here but wanted to show an example of how it exists in other games.

Also Splinter Cell Blacklist did it again worked pretty well.

 

[Dictator93]

IMO, before the thread gets sooooo long and we lose content among pages, We should probably refrain from short 1 sentence posting regarding certain topiucs if we want to keep the thread, for the mean-time at least, information rich.

Also, PBR/PBS as a term (as n0oblet pointed out) is über-nebulous. If anyone would like to take up writing up a post with examples describing the change in technology and art flow that the OP could link to, I would be grateful!

 

[mrqs]

It´s pretty crazy where we are right now in the industry. Developers now really care about cinematography, and it's just beggining.

This simple comparisson shows how the industry got better.

 

[Starfield]

Should use PC screenshots for Battlefront. Console screenshots do more bad than good to this game imo

Frostbite 3 is one hell of an awesome engine

 

[etta]

Should use PC screenshots for Battlefront. Console screenshots do more bad than good to this game imo

Frostbite 3 is one hell of an awesome engine

True, but PBR is evident regardless of the resolution.

 

[nOoblet16]

Does anyone else now think that games without effective use of PBR almost always look last gen?

Yep it's true...look at Just Cause 3.
Looks nice and better than Just Cause 2 PC but it looks dated. Fallout 4 too for example has a shit PBR implementation with lighting that is out of place, which causes materials to look wrong and as such it looks dated too. For instance, the characters have a weird rim lighting to them that conflicts with environment lighting that makes their skin and clothing look plasticy.

Hmm, didn't know that Black Ops 3 was done with PBR. Yea, I guess it's all about how much work they put into the texture. Halo 5 has really nice PBR, same for Witcher 3 armor, then there's Battlefront that has probably the best usage of PBR so far.

It's easy to see Black Ops 3 uses PBR.
Treyarch started doing PBR before most developers...they did it in Black Ops 1.

Halo 5 has some nice materials but it also has some inaccurate materials by the way, it is covered in the DF article.

 

[Dictator93]

Post-processing is what is done with a readily rendered image after all the drawing, culling, shading, lighting / shadowing has been accomplished. A good analogy IMO is how compositing and post-effects work is done in film. A film editor has the images that were already captured to the film, and then they add or apply shading, add-in objects, paste in CGI into the frame stills after-the-fact: important to note is that they do not generally have access to the original imnformation which made the source image what it was. It can only work with what it has been made generated after (rendered, or captured as in film). Since this step tends to drastically affect colours on the screen, there is the tendency to consider this "lighting" in common parlance, but as will be described at a future point by a proceding post, what is typically meant with "lighting" is conceptually different.
Common types of post processing:
1. Colour grading / Bloom / Eye adaptation

Colour grading transition: this is generally used to tone map the image by editing the S-RGB curve to generate a certain mood or feeling. Here the indoor section has been colour shifted to be warmer and redder in colour, then one exits into space and there is a slight desaturation and blue-shift. (here shown in Star Citizen Alpha 2.0 H)

Bloom: Around 2005 or 2006 as next-gen consoles came out, this became the post effect that defined next gen (although it was used earlier). It attempts to represent a number of things, but mainly the overbrightening halo that can occur with human eye sight or on film. For better or for worse. Bloom typically works by analyzing a (typically) downscaled image (does not need to have a high dynamic range even) before it has been tone mapped and "blowing out" the pixels of the image that have a certain level of brightness. How that the bloom is calculated and applied to neighbouring pixels in the image depends on the method. It can be bloody expensive. Since the buffer the bloom is calculated from tends to be lower resolution than the final rendering resolution, there can be problems with flickering and popping pixels being rather haphazardly applied with bloom. (here shown in Natural Selection 2)

Eye adaptation
Can someone provide good examples here for me?

2. Motion Blur: in general motion blur is trying replicate a side effect of exposed film. Since film is capturing a duration of time in one of its frames, the exposure captures a continuum of information which generates the final image. This means moving objects can show trails whereby the lens shape, the aperture shape, the level of brightness, the duration of the exposure, tons of minute camera characteristics affect the way the blur behind / within objects appears... but this is not just a filmic effect as human vision is prone to this as well (wave your hand in front of your monitor for example). It helps visually "smooth" out any framerate by eliminating the visible gaps between rendered objects during refreshes. It has the side effect of altering image clarity and the ability to discern distinct images when much of it is applied.

a. Camera / Screen Motion Blur: the most common type of motion blur in games. Camera movements in all 3d directions produces a visual distortion on screen edges or following the cameras vector in quick pans. WIP (here shown in Star Citizen Alpha 2.0 H)

b. Per-object Motion Blur: WIP (here shown in Star Citizen Alpha 2.0 H)

3. Depth of Field: WIP

4. Post-process anti-aliasing: WIP


5. Miscelaneous shading via partial post-process: WIP

 

[Firmus_Anguis]

Clothes physics done right - that seems like the proper next step (I won't go into hair...).
Earliest example that I can think of (where it wasn't a robe or anything) is probably the original Uncharted, where Nate's shirt would strech according to how he moved and how his legs were positioned.

But that wasn't truly 3D though, nor was it a simulation. Seemed like some sort of texture transition, I don't know what else to call it (I think Fifa uses it too). But it's not truly 3D.
I think a NBA2K title used full on 3D cloth physics, but I can't remember which one.

But I'm generally referring to action adventure games, or third person shooters. Uncharted 4 seems to have some really amazing physics in general, so here's hoping ND floors me again!
But I'm guessing we'll have to wait until next-gen for proper cloth simulation - Anyone have any proper examples?

 

[nOoblet16]

Clothes physics done right - that seems like the proper next step (I won't go into hair...).
Earliest example that I can think of (where it wasn't a robe or anything) is probably the original Uncharted, where Nate's shirt would strech according to how he moved and how his legs were positioned.

But that wasn't truly 3D though, nor was it a simulation. Seemed like some sort of texture transition, I don't know what else to call it (I think Fifa uses it too). But it's not truly 3D.
I think a NBA2K title used full on 3D cloth physics, but I can't remember which one.

But I'm generally referring to action adventure games, or third person shooters. Uncharted 4 seems to have some really amazing physics in general, so here's hoping ND floors me again!
But I'm guessing we'll have to wait until next-gen for proper cloth simulation - Anyone have any proper examples?

That's not cloth physics in any form, it was just an animated normal map. It did not take into account how his body was positioned, but simply flipped between two pre made variants.

Witcher 3 has quite good cloth physics and so do the assassin's creed games, Batman games use quite advanced cloth simulation for the cape.

 

[Firmus_Anguis]

That's not cloth physics in any form, it was just an animated normal map. It did not take into account how his body was positioned, but simply flipped between two pre made variants.

Witcher 3 has quite good cloth physics and so do the assassin's creed games, Batman games use quite advanced cloth simulation for the cape.

It's pretty obvious you didn't read my next sentence, right after the one you bolded.
But yeah, I agree. The Witcher 3 did a good job as well, especially considering it's an open world game! Great example!

 

[nOoblet16]

It's pretty obvious you didn't read my next sentence, right after the one you bolded.
But yeah, I agree. The Witcher 3 did a good job as well, especially considering it's an open world game! Great example!

I did read, you really think I would bold a sentence..knowing when to stop and not bold without reading it all? I replied because you did say cloth physics and then gave that example. You can't really say it's an example and then expect not to be pointed out why it isn't an example just because you wrote that your example is wrong

 

[Felix Lighter]

Edit:

Oops. I think my post didn't really match the intent of the thread. I'll just read. I'd love to learn more about the topic.

 

[HappehLemons]

It´s pretty crazy where we are right now in the industry. Developers now really care about cinematography, and it's just beggining.

This simple comparisson shows how the industry got better.

I think the first shot looks better, lol.

 

[Dictator93]

I think the first shot looks better, lol.

It really does not help that the second image is taken from a largely compressed video. Like I said GAF, let's try and keep this thread as clean as possible regarding bickering and image quality!
---
Would anyone like to help me compile some images and text for the first mega-post I started above? I really would not mind, and in fact would prefer, secondary / tertiary input on it.
---

The most exciting new thing for me recently in graphics technology are all the amazing uses for dynamic distance field data (as available in UE4.9+).

E.g. one of my (many) pet peeves with graphics is flowing water reacting to obstacles. So far, you had either manual techniques which take a lot of effort, or offline computation which can't react to dynamic changes. Not so with distance field materials.

Of course, you can also use distance fields for lots of other things like AO, efficient GPU-based particle collision, and volume decals.

Beyond the latest U.E. iterrations, where else has this seen application? Also, is it reusable (i.e. like when you generate a voxel grid from geometry that can be re-used for tons of different things)?

I can only agree though that moving away from pure screen space is something I find really awesome.

 

[Firmus_Anguis]

I did read, you really think I would bold a sentence..knowing when to stop and not bold without reading it all? I replied because you did say cloth physics and then gave that example. You can't really say it's an example and then expect not to be pointed out why it isn't an example just because you wrote that your example is wrong

Haha, well it's happened to me before and it's not unheard of!
I'll try to be more clear next time around!

This is totally off-topic, but - Holy shit! I'm a member! :-D

 

[nOoblet16]

It really does not help that the second image is taken from a largely compressed video. Like I said GAF, let's try and keep this thread as clean as possible regarding bickering and image quality!
---
Would anyone like to help me compile some images and text for the first mega-post I started above? I really would not mind, and in fact would prefer, secondary / tertiary input on it.
---


Beyond the latest U.E. iterrations, where else has this seen application? Also, is it reusable (i.e. like when you generate a voxel grid from geometry that can be re-used for tons of different things)?

I can only agree though that moving away from pure screen space is something I find really awesome.

Don't think there is high quality footage available for FFVII remake.

Anyways, I can do DoF.
It's late at night for me though...so tomorrow.

 

[HTupolev]

Since the buffer the bloom is calculated from tends to be lower resolution than the final rendering resolution, there can be problems with flickering and popping pixels being rather haphazardly applied with bloom.

It seems like most of the bloom flickering out there is due to aliasing in the initial render. Even simple bilinear rescale bloom tends to be blocky more than flickery.

Bloom filters definitely can experience flickering though, FFXIII being the most severe example that comes to mind.

 

[ShamePain]

One of the key technologies of this gen is probably Screen Space Reflections. Not without fault, but every new game without it looks like crap to me when reflective things don't reflect surrounding objects properly.

 

[Tain]

Very good idea for a thread. Subscribed.

 

[lazygecko]

I don't think that "no jpegs!" requirement is going to be very fruitful.

 

[MaLDo]

Battlefront graphics shine in higher resolutions.

Hmm, didn't know that Black Ops 3 was done with PBR. Yea, I guess it's all about how much work they put into the texture. Halo 5 has really nice PBR, same for Witcher 3 armor, then there's Battlefront that has probably the best usage of PBR so far.

 

[kyser73]

You finally went and did it! Good luck...although do you think you could add some carriage returns between the paragraphs in the OP as it's a bit of a mess on mobile.

OK, n00b question - what is a shader?

 

[Siphorus]

There's a interesting type of blur going on in Xenoblade X that I haven't seen applied in a while. (I guess it would be considered screen space?) Since it blurs the edges of the camera in a curved rectangular mask around the edges of the screen. Adds a nice effect to the motion though. I'm gonna sub to this thread since I have a couple books arriving on 3D Rendering in the next week for when I get through finals .