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Game of Thrones |OT| The offseason thread - Season 3 returns March 31st

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W

Wray

Member
Iksenpets said:
SoS major spoilers
Ygritte dies before the main battle at the wall. She's part of the Magnar of Thenn's party that tries to take Castle Black from the south and open the gate for Mance shortly after Jon arrives back at the Wall. She dies when Jon and the Watch defeat them and foil that plan. Only after that does the real battle begin with Mance trying to take the gate by force from the North with pure numbers and giants and mammoths and whatnot.

If Ygritte needs to die before the end of season 3 they'll either need to change the circumstances (having Ygritte die in the scuffle with Jon and Summer could maybe work?) or basically have Jon's plot in season 4 be nothing but the battle and his subsequent election as LC, which would require stretching that battle over a lot of episodes while still keeping it interesting.
Click to expand...

You can easily move some of Jon's Dance chapters up if you wanted to spend less time on the battle.


Forsaken82 said:
Ahh ok so i was confusing the two battles, but this simply brings up what I was talking about before... again, there just isn't a whole lot compelling without really dragging things out and as such other stuff will just get lost in the shuffle.
Click to expand...

Huh?

Jon's Season 4 story could have...

- The major battle of the wall and all the stuff that goes with it
- Jon's parlay with Mance and Stannis' surprise arrival
- All of the politics involving the election of Lord Commander with Jon winning

And if you wanted to, you can move up some big stuff from early Dance

- Jon beheading Janos Slynt
- Jon letting the wildlings through the Wall

All that is plenty of stuff to fill out across 8-9 episodes (Remember, most arcs typically get 1-2 weeks off.)
 
R

RaidenZR

Member
Wray said:
You can easily move some of Jon's Dance chapters up if you wanted to spend less time on the battle.




Huh?

Jon's Season 4 story could have...

- The major battle of the wall and all the stuff that goes with it
- Jon's parlay with Mance and Stannis' surprise arrival
- All of the politics involving the election of Lord Commander with Jon winning

And if you wanted to, you can move up some big stuff from early Dance

- Jon beheading Janos Slynt
- Jon letting the wildlings through the Wall

All that is plenty of stuff to fill out across 8-9 episodes (Remember, most arcs typically get 1-2 weeks off.)
Click to expand...

What is the benefit to rushing all these 'key' events?
Good storytelling is not simply a collection of action on-screen, and the show needs to organically get to those moments without leaving non-book fans scratching their heads. So you need downtime and periods of setup. Ebb and flow, peaks and valleys, calms and storms. If they just keep rushing through the major cliff notes of each book fan's ideal moments then we'll be left with a very shallow show. They have kind of done this a little in season 2 and it showed through for people who aren't sensationally consuming the water-cooler events.

I for one hope
Joffrey's wedding lasts longer than just 2-3 scenes on the show. There's a great deal of setup and seeding that still needs to happen for that event, and I think seeing Tyrion suffer wave after wave of humiliation during the feast would be important for what comes later... when it all gets turned on its collective head.

And I know they haven't concluded casting announcements yet but it seems like it would be necessary for them to cast
Penny if they were going ahead with Joffrey's wedding this season. She's a pretty important character for Tyrion later on, as it would seem. So unless they do cast her, then that's halfway decent (albeit not critical) evidence to support they're saving Joff's big day for season 4.
 
W

Wray

Member
RaidenZR said:
What is the benefit to rushing all these 'key' events?
Good storytelling is not simply a collection of action on-screen, and the show needs to organically get to those moments without leaving non-book fans scratching their heads. So you need downtime and periods of setup. Ebb and flow, peaks and valleys, calms and storms. If they just keep rushing through the major cliff notes of each book fan's ideal moments then we'll be left with a very shallow show. They have kind of done this a little in season 2 and it showed through for people who aren't sensationally consuming the water-cooler events.

I for one hope
Joffrey's wedding lasts longer than just 2-3 scenes on the show. There's a great deal of setup and seeding that still needs to happen for that event, and I think seeing Tyrion suffer wave after wave of humiliation during the feast would be important for what comes later... when it all gets turned on its collective head.

And I know they haven't concluded casting announcements yet but it seems like it would be necessary for them to cast
Penny if they were going ahead with Joffrey's wedding this season. She's a pretty important character for Tyrion later on, as it would seem. So unless they do cast her, then that's halfway decent (albeit not critical) evidence to support they're saving Joff's big day for season 4.
Click to expand...

They're not going to cast Penny just for that one scene. It makes zero sense budget wise. They will introduce her when she is needed for the actual story, which wont be till S5 or later. Same reason they didnt cast Aeron in S2 for the 1-2 unneeded scenes he was in in CoK.

As for the other stuff. Good storytelling is starting arcs and finishing them, not going 80% of the way and letting them sit for 10 months till the following season. If the Joffrey/Marg wedding is a story arc at all next season, it will finish next season. They wont play it up, then postpone the climax till S4. That's just shitty writing all the way around.
 
R

RaidenZR

Member
Wray said:
They're not going to cast Penny just for that one scene. It makes zero sense budget wise. They will introduce her when she is needed for the actual story, which wont be till S5 or later. Same reason they didnt cast Aeron in S2 for the 1-2 unneeded scenes he was in in CoK.

As for the other stuff. Good storytelling is starting arcs and finishing them, not going 80% of the way and letting them sit for 10 months till the following season. If the Joffrey/Marg wedding is a story arc at all next season, it will finish next season. They wont play it up, then postpone the climax till S4. That's just shitty writing all the way around.
Click to expand...

Okay we just have a difference of opinion on how the book content should be adapted. And by the logic you put forth,
they already started the Margery/Joffrey story arc in the final episode last season. So.... shouldn't they have finished it?

But you still haven't said why you're so in favor of rushing through every major event. What's the point (other than to see all your favorite book moments)? The show doesn't benefit either way because 1) it uses up all its really sensational material very quickly and 2) sacrifices a more natural, even-keeled pacing. You need periods of world building, exposition, characters' reactions, etc... This goes for the audience, too.
You can't expect any one to absorb the major events of ASOS if you put them back-to-back-to-back like you proposed. It's kinda crazy. I don't even know why you think all those things count as one single arc, either (if that's what you're suggesting). It's multiple arcs built up over two, and even three continuous books.
Regardless, at this point in the show's life, no major audience drops are going to happen from one-week to the next unless they do something horribly off production-wise.

Despite all my typing, I actually think the showrunners are more in your mindset and I feel strongly it's a mistake.
I hate how they nipped and rushed through parts of Jon's story beats only to seem them then shove some early storm of swords stuff into the last episode. I really didn't see the need to do that since ASOS is a complete enough book on it's own, AND since they shortchanged/hurried some things early on.
Not that I think very negatively of the show at all, but they'll probably continue this trend since they have gotten nothing but positive reinforcement all around.
 
D

dead souls

Member
Rash said:
Really? Wow. In terms of HBO shows I've only fully watched Curb Your Enthusiasm, The Larry Sanders Show, The Sopranos, and Deadwood, but GoT seems pretty much up to par with these and other great shows in general. I'm already liking it more than The Sopranos after 14 eps. Can't decide if it's up to Deadwood's level yet, though.

People have their opinions.
Click to expand...

It boggles the mind that anyone could think GoT is as good as any of the other HBO shows you mention in your post. The disparity in quality is massive.
 
B

Buckethead

Banned
I really hope them splitting Storm into 2 season will allow some more character development, etc. from the books.

I didn't care for GOT S2 a whole lot. Too much stuff cut out.

Didn't give the scenes time to breath.
 
C

Count of Monte Sawed-Off

un33dab@dpu$$y
Buckethead said:
I really hope them splitting Storm into 2 season will allow some more character development, etc. from the books.

I didn't care for GOT S2 a whole lot. Too much stuff cut out.

Didn't give the scenes time to breath.
Click to expand...

My hope as well. hopefully they don't rush anything, take their time and learn how to pace things better.
 
Z

ZackieChan

Member
moop2000 said:
I know.

and off topic your avatar, "uunnhhhhh!" I just want the two of them in a buddy cop show. Make it happen someone.
Click to expand...

There was talk of Ray Stevenson doing a pilot for some zombie detective show. I guess that never happened.

But yeah, I would love to see them as cops working in the 13th Precinct. Bring it.
 
B

border

Member
I just finished reading A Clash of Kings, and we are about 5 episodes into Season 2.

What is it that readers disliked so much about S2? I'm kind of enjoying how they streamlined things - we really didn't need Dany wandering the desert for so long, really didn't need several chapters of the Arya and the kids wandering the forests after Yoren dies.
 
Z

ZeroRay

Member
Keep watching.

This is right when some major alterations to a few storylines occur. One of which I did not very much care for.
 
C

Count of Monte Sawed-Off

un33dab@dpu$$y
border said:
I just finished reading A Clash of Kings, and we are about 5 episodes into Season 2.

What is it that readers disliked so much about S2? I'm kind of enjoying how they streamlined things - we really didn't need Dany wandering the desert for so long, really didn't need several chapters of the Arya and the kids wandering the forests after Yoren dies.
Click to expand...

Yeah thats about when things go off the tracks for me. Most of the changes were fine up to there like omitting some of Arya and company's journey, and Jon's first chapters beyond the wall. But you'll soon get to some (cute at first) changes to Aryas storyline in Harrenhal that ultimately go nowhere and come at the expense of any develoment for her (theyre "saving" that for later seasons) and the joke they turned Jon's storyline into.
 
D

dead souls

Member
ZackieChan said:
I'm trying to think of a dead souls post that I've seen that is in any way positive. They don't exist.
Click to expand...

Yawn. Try reading the threads on Treme, Enlightened, The Borgias, Homeland, Shameless, Curb, or any other number of actually good shows and you'll see that you are wildly mistaken.

It's not my fault that this show is mediocre at best.
 
N

NathanMcMahon

Banned
dead souls said:
Yawn. Try reading the threads on Treme, Enlightened, The Borgias, Homeland, Shameless, Curb, or any other number of actually good shows and you'll see that you are wildly mistaken.

It's not my fault that this show is mediocre at best.
Click to expand...

just make sure you keep watching it though
 
L

Lothar

Banned
border said:
really didn't need several chapters of the Arya and the kids wandering the forests after Yoren dies.
Click to expand...

That was one chapter and yes we did, since that was the chapter where we got a ground view of the devastation caused by the war. There was plenty of characterization and character developing/bonding between the kids. It was a neat little adventure of the kids trying to survive on their own with no adults and no way to get food in a war ravaged land. The story also let you see how brave and selfless Arya was in trying to rescue Gendry by herself.

The compression of that story is just the first of many big fuck ups concerning Arya though.
 
I

Iksenpets

Banned
RaidenZR said:
Okay we just have a difference of opinion on how the book content should be adapted. And by the logic you put forth,
they already started the Margery/Joffrey story arc in the final episode last season. So.... shouldn't they have finished it?

But you still haven't said why you're so in favor of rushing through every major event. What's the point (other than to see all your favorite book moments)? The show doesn't benefit either way because 1) it uses up all its really sensational material very quickly and 2) sacrifices a more natural, even-keeled pacing. You need periods of world building, exposition, characters' reactions, etc... This goes for the audience, too.
You can't expect any one to absorb the major events of ASOS if you put them back-to-back-to-back like you proposed. It's kinda crazy. I don't even know why you think all those things count as one single arc, either (if that's what you're suggesting). It's multiple arcs built up over two, and even three continuous books.
Regardless, at this point in the show's life, no major audience drops are going to happen from one-week to the next unless they do something horribly off production-wise.

Despite all my typing, I actually think the showrunners are more in your mindset and I feel strongly it's a mistake.
I hate how they nipped and rushed through parts of Jon's story beats only to seem them then shove some early storm of swords stuff into the last episode. I really didn't see the need to do that since ASOS is a complete enough book on it's own, AND since they shortchanged/hurried some things early on.
Not that I think very negatively of the show at all, but they'll probably continue this trend since they have gotten nothing but positive reinforcement all around.
Click to expand...

Pretty much agree with this. I think the show could benefit a lot from slowing down and maybe creating some material to make up for developments that were cut in season 2, but the creators seem to just want to rush to big events.

As for the new actor, I would guess
Vargo
unless he's just a really minor character.
 
W

Wray

Member
RaidenZR said:
Okay we just have a difference of opinion on how the book content should be adapted. And by the logic you put forth,
they already started the Margery/Joffrey story arc in the final episode last season. So.... shouldn't they have finished it?
Click to expand...

That's a terrible ridiculous analogy. A better example of what I'm talking about would have been if the writers decided to delay Ned's beheading to S2, or delay the conclusion of Blackwater to S3. You don't start big seasonal story arcs like that and then push them to the next season.

But you still haven't said why you're so in favor of rushing through every major event. What's the point (other than to see all your favorite book moments)? .
Click to expand...

Because they wouldn't be rushing through every big moment. I've already posted a bunch of big moments that could and likely will be in S4. I'm not going to post them for like a 5th time cause you're too lazy to read them. I also think you have a poor memory of SoS. The first half of SoS was pretty slow, and most of the major stuff happened in the back half of that book.
 
I

Iksenpets

Banned
SoS
All the major events happen in the back half, true, but I think the events in the front half are more complex in terms of converting them to the screen. After the RW and its immediate aftermath the plot basically collapses into three main threads, in King's Landing, The Wall, and Meereen, with a handful of Arya and Bran scenes thrown in. It's basically a return to the level of complexity you had in season 1. The complexity only ramps up again when the Feast/Dance plotlines enter. The first half of book 2 has all of those settings plus Riverrun, Dragonstone, and Jaime and Brienne's travels; plus the show will probably have to introduce an independent Harrenhal plot, since the castle didn't change hands while Arya was there.

Sure, the Greyjoy plotlines will almost certainly be added to fill space in S4, but there's probably just as much book 2 material that needs to be moved into season 3 with Harrenhal and all the time that needs to be taken to establish the Tullys and Reeds who've been left out up til now. I think its a lot easier to move slowly in season 3 and shift content into season 4 than it is to have season 3 cover more than its half of the book and then stretch all of season 4's big twists into ten hours of tv. The shock of the result of Tyrion's trial will lose some impact if you've spent 4 episodes on it. Any anger people feel would have to compete with the relief they feel at the thing being over. And every character's book 3 ending is so perfect I can't imagine continuing anyone's plot beyond it.
 
R

RaidenZR

Member
Wray said:
That's a terrible ridiculous analogy. A better example of what I'm talking about would have been if the writers decided to delay Ned's beheading to S2, or delay the conclusion of Blackwater to S3. You don't start big seasonal story arcs like that and then push them to the next season.



Because they wouldn't be rushing through every big moment. I've already posted a bunch of big moments that could and likely will be in S4. I'm not going to post them for like a 5th time cause you're too lazy to read them. I also think you have a poor memory of SoS. The first half of SoS was pretty slow, and most of the major stuff happened in the back half of that book.
Click to expand...

I've read all your posts and all I've seen in them is a listing out and expediting a bunch of ordered events. That's not necessarily better. My takeaway from that is this:
your idea of ideal pacing for the show is just having the the big banner moments roll out and occupy a single episode one after another, then plug the major hole that leaves in season 4 with moved up AFFC/ADWD content. I, personally, feel that's MUCH too fast when 1) ASOS is a unanimously praised book and 2) has plenty of content to deal with on it's own. There's no reason to just blaze through it like a fireball. Not to mention the stuff from ACOK that Iksenpets pointed out they will probably cover.

Gattling-gunning through Red Wedding, Joffrey Wedding, battle at the Wall, and the Zombie Cat reveal in episodes that immediately follow one another isn't something you've done a good job of defending.
You seem to think this a great example of pacing and I couldn't see more to disagree with. It's pretty obvious that even though time is somewhat ambiguous in the show, based on how events have played out and how events unfold in the book, there is some downtime between these events. Your idea of how much time should transpire between episodes is set on some sort of turbo-speed and my hope is that they go more leisurely than that in the show.

This is assuming they follow the book events very closely, of course. And we know they won't do that... not to a "T", anyway.
 
L

LuchaShaq

Banned
moop2000 said:
just make sure you keep watching it though
Click to expand...

Have to agree at some point if you think the show sucks/mediocre stop watching/posting.

I thought the first 2-3 episodes last year were a fucking train wreck, so the rest of the episodes before the blackwater ep I relegated to watching on the phone on the treadmill. Aka the place where even the worst tv show is a nice help. When an episode sucks and you got excited/did nothing else at the time? It's a bummer. When an episode sucks and you were just jogging on the treadmill for an hour+ anyways? Oh well it got my attention at least!


Then for the last two eps I put them back on the big screen due to hype.
 
E

Eggplant Wizard

Member
KingHenrik30 said:
My personally, I'd hope they'd leave [ASOS]
Lady Stoneheart reveal
till the end of season 4
Click to expand...

ASOS
Not sure they'd want to let go of the actress for so long, the way they kept Jaime around last year. Plus I think it's easier to be seen as playing fair with the audience if the reveal comes before the break.
 
W

Wray

Member
RaidenZR said:
I've read all your posts and all I've seen in them is a listing out and expediting a bunch of ordered events. That's not necessarily better. My takeaway from that is this:
your idea of ideal pacing for the show is just having the the big banner moments roll out and occupy a single episode one after another, then plug the major hole that leaves in season 4 with moved up AFFC/ADWD content. I, personally, feel that's MUCH too fast when 1) ASOS is a unanimously praised book and 2) has plenty of content to deal with on it's own. There's no reason to just blaze through it like a fireball. Not to mention the stuff from ACOK that Iksenpets pointed out they will probably cover.

Gattling-gunning through Red Wedding, Joffrey Wedding, battle at the Wall, and the Zombie Cat reveal in episodes that immediately follow one another isn't something you've done a good job of defending.
You seem to think this a great example of pacing and I couldn't see more to disagree with. It's pretty obvious that even though time is somewhat ambiguous in the show, based on how events have played out and how events unfold in the book, there is some downtime between these events. Your idea of how much time should transpire between episodes is set on some sort of turbo-speed and my hope is that they go more leisurely than that in the show.

This is assuming they follow the book events very closely, of course. And we know they won't do that... not to a "T", anyway.
Click to expand...

If you're going to debate me and claim you've read my posts, stop making stuff up. Nowhere did I advocate placing the Battle at the Wall in S3. As for moving up the Zombie Cat reveal, unless you want the actress playing Catelyn, who is one of the bigger actors on the show, sitting around for a whole season with nothing to do till the final episode, you simply have to move that scene up. It's the only way they can justify her S4 salary. You need to realize the realities of a tv production.

You're also not realizing that you don't have to end each PoV at the same time. Most are independent of one another. You can stretch out the KL plot further in S3, but cut Dany's sooner if you wanted.

And again, Red Wedding, Joffrey's Wedding, and Zombie Cat are three big events, there are alot more that would happen in S4, that I already mentioned multiple times, that keep you ignoring for some reason.
 
K

KingHenrik30

Member
Eggplant Wizard said:
ASOS
Not sure they'd want to let go of the actress for so long, the way they kept Jaime around last year. Plus I think it's easier to be seen as playing fair with the audience if the reveal comes before the break.
Click to expand...

I totally understand that, and I know that it's gonna go down in the same season as [ASOS]
Red Wedding
. I Just think [ASOS]
it would be a much bigger shit-your-pants moment If all those people who are not book readers had thought her dead and then all of the sudden, when they are least expecting it, BOOM - Lady Stoneheart BITCH
 
Jibbajabbawockky

Jibbajabbawockky

Member
Eggplant Wizard said:
ASOS
Not sure they'd want to let go of the actress for so long, the way they kept Jaime around last year. Plus I think it's easier to be seen as playing fair with the audience if the reveal comes before the break.
Click to expand...


Series
But the problem with Stoneheart is that beyond her reveal at the end of ASoS and some of her later interactions with Brienne, she is not onscreen much at all. And her story seems quite unfinished in the books. It doesn't seem a situation like Jaime's where you'd want to keep the actor around knowing you have some big part for them in the future. Its just not clear how important or not Stoneheart may be in the future. At least in a big onscreen role.

I don't know that I'd want to see Cat go zombie so quickly. Part of what I really enjoyed in ASoS is how GRRM spaces events out to maximize their dramatic effect. Like after the RW, you want revenge on the Lannisters, like Joff dying, yet for a while it doesn't look like its going to come. Right until he gets poisoned. And the whole Cat thing comes as a huge surprise...since she's been dead for a while in book terms at that point. Whereas she'll have been dead for maybe an episode or 2 in the TV show?
 
C

Cornballer

Member
- Maureen Ryan: Dominic West Of The 'Wire' Rejected A Role On The HBO Drama
"I was offered something on 'Game of Thrones' and unfortunately, I hadn't seen it, but my nephew and his father said, 'Gosh, "Game of Thrones" is the only great show on!' And I felt terrible, because I'd just turned them down," West said.

So what part was West offered? He hasn't read the books, so the name didn't stick in his head. But he did say that taking the role -- a substantial one, from the sounds of it -- would have involved being "in Reykjavik for six months."

So was it King Beyond the Wall Mance Rayder, which seems like the most likely possibility to me (and the only substantial Season 3 role that hasn't been cast)? Was it a member of the Night's Watch north of the Wall? One of Mance's men? Alas, West couldn't recall the name of the character, so we're left to speculate. (I've asked HBO if they know which role West was offered, and I'll update this post if I get more information.)

In any event, "it was a lovely part, a good part. I'm going to regret it," he said with a rueful laugh. "My problem is, I've got four kids, and at the moment, I'm reluctant to be away from home for a long time. I can get a lot of work in London and still be at home. That's one of the many brilliant things about 'The Hour.'"

"Should I have taken it?" he asked, semi-seriously. As much as I would have loved to see Baltimore's most famous fictional cop on another fine HBO program, I can certainly respect West's devotion to his family obligations. Besides, the Iceland scenes look amazing on the show, but the actors in those scenes also look very, very cold.
Click to expand...
That's too bad. :(
 
Lactose_Intolerant

Lactose_Intolerant

Member
As much as I would have loved to see Baltimore's most famous fictional cop
Click to expand...

uYvuK.gif
 
G

gutshot

Member
Pretty sure it's only 6 weeks. Hopefully it wasn't a misunderstanding of how long the shoot was that caused him to turn it down! That would suck.
 
B

border

Member
Is it ever revealed who hired the assassin to kill Bran? I'm reading the first Jaime chapter of ASOS and it seems to absolve both Jaime and Cersei. But they're really the only people who would have had a motive.
 
S

Steelyuhas

Member
border said:
Is it ever revealed who hired the assassin to kill Bran? I'm reading the first Jaime chapter of ASOS and it seems to absolve both Jaime and Cersei. But they're really the only people who would have had a motive.
Click to expand...

The answer (yes or no)
Yes



Shame about West, would have been awesome. :/
 
1

1138

Member
border said:
Is it ever revealed who hired the assassin to kill Bran? I'm reading the first Jaime chapter of ASOS and it seems to absolve both Jaime and Cersei. But they're really the only people who would have had a motive.
Click to expand...

Keep watching the upcomming seasons ;)
 
M

Mudkips

Banned
border said:
Is it ever revealed who hired the assassin to kill Bran? I'm reading the first Jaime chapter of ASOS and it seems to absolve both Jaime and Cersei. But they're really the only people who would have had a motive.
Click to expand...

You're basically asking for spoilers. Just read.
 
M

MNC

Member
Personally I thought Arya's strongest moments were ASOS
with Clegane and Dondarrion's group and that's the part where she grew the most. IMO
 
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