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#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

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Galactic Fork

A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Here's a taste. I'm assuming people here aren't already intimately familiar with this.

on goals said:
All of the following are counterproductive and damage ourselves ONLY:

No objectives, no goals, no demands, no philosophies, no lists.

- It screws up the framing of the issue by forcing us to focus on specific issues.
- The corrupt journos will adhere to the letter of the list and not the spirit. They will find a way to weasel around them.
- The second nobody is looking, they'll go back to being dishonest.
- This idea was put forth by a well-meaning PR person, not someone experienced in consumer activity. PR is the journo's game. Not ours.
- It divides us into the goals we each specifically want and we don't all want the same things. What appeases you will not appease another etc.
- Demands are things that terrorists make. We are a consumer revolt. We are not violent. We are not underhanded. We are not a political movement.
- Philosophies are for philosophers, not consumer revolts. We don't need philosophy to obtain the moral high ground, the opposition has already given it to us. We have no benefit in philosophies.
- Goals are for games, not a consumer revolt.
- Objectives are for military operations, not a consumer revolt.
- Lists are for nerds.
- It is true that it may increase our numbers (in an absolute sense, but we're still divided over the goals) because people have specific things to champion. However, this will bring us fence-sitters and those of weak will and not people that will do the work of writing emails and investigation of corruption. If they aren't invested on the merits, they aren't invested and thus are not helpful.
- We do not need clear end points. If people are discouraged by a perceived lack of progress, take a break. This is an extended and long-term approach and you must take breaks. If you need specific goals for yourself, participate 2 or 3 days a week. Phrase it in those terms. Creating goals is not necessary.
- It does not help people get into this. What does help people get into this is a more coherent and concise set of facts that they can evaluate and come to their own conclusions.
- Numbers are not an argument. Facts create numbers. Numbers don't necessarily create facts.
- Phrasing these goals incorrectly will put them as lines in the sand. We cannot change them once they're satisfied. We cannot move goalposts like they do.

This just confuses me so much. Despite not having goals, he mentions the evil enemies "corrupt journos" and also gathering numbers to "investigate corruption" and send emails. What are they sending emails about if there are no goals?
The most I can figure out is that they are a "consumer revolt" against "corrupt journos." But that might be not everybody's goal. Maybe that's what's so appealing about GamerGate! It can mean anything to anybody. I want to join and use the power to demand a proper Avatar: The Last Airbender movie. That's what Gamergate means to me!


Also... "- Lists are for nerds."
Wasn't that a list of reasons to have no objectives, no goals, no demands, no philosophies, and no lists?
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Sounds ethical.

The interesting thing about RogueStarGamez is the owner, Slade Villena, made a comment on Gamasutra long ago saying that the pinnacle of what they and developers want to achieve is for everyone to be a gamer and "On that day, gamers are everywhere, and nowhere. Gamers are everyone and no one."

It's amazing to me because that's the simple concept of "gamers are dead" that he so adamantly fights against.

http://web.archive.org/web/20120509...re__Metrics_Gamers__All_Grown_Up.php#comments
 

obonicus

Member
I mean, I know I am harping on this point repeatedly, but it is literally designed to just harass women until they leave the gaming community. That's it, that's their endgame.

That's both oversimplifying and giving it more intent than it actually has. What you have is a bunch of angry people with no focus and no plan having some vague complaint about 'ethics' but with no idea what to do about it except be mad. And then you have the maniacs. The problem is that these people just aren't interested in distancing from the maniacs, partly because the maniacs' counter-intelligence is pretty effective.

I mean, gamergaters include kids like these. I can't honestly claim that these confused teenagers understand what they're really doing or saying.

And honestly, this isn't that far from the status quo. Gamers being mostly confused and ineffectual (but really really mad) happened with the Sims debacle, it happened with Mass Effect 3*. The difference is scale and persistence, and scale's a pretty big differentiator in that it gives the terrorist assholes plenty of cover in which to act.

* I think this is why companies and publishers kind of don't know what to do. They're used to ceding and apologizing to smallish infuriated groups, but this group is kind of particularly abhorrent. Intel was the first to take a step, and it was a bad step.
 
I've honestly had multiple GamerGaters admit to having no issues with anti feminists being part of the movement, while simultaneously going 'but I'm not an anti feminist'. So I've just been going with 'GamerGate welcomes anti feminists with open arms' instead, and so far no one has taken me up on that one.

I won't deny there are likely a lot of sexists in GG.

Though I think you are conflating women and feminists. You can be anti feminism without being anti women, as evidenced by existing women anti feminists.

I don't think it's a right to silence feminists or anyone.
 

meanspartan

Member
I'm not gonna lie.

Way back at the beginning of all of this, I had some aggressive opinions about Zoe Quinn. Felt like she did a lot of questionable things and made up stuff. You could say, back then, I didn't really mind #gamergate because they were calling her out on her supposed bullshit.

I'm not proud of it, because when you look at what the thing has become... holy shit. It's crazy. The point they're trying to make, the thing they're calling the press out for... even if they were right, it's nowhere near as bad as what they're doing. Yet a lot of people in this 'movement' still don't seem to realize this?

Shit's crazy yo.

Same here, Zoe Quinn is an awful person (cuz of the gamejam thing, couldnt care less bout cheating) and I was disgusted how many people jumped to her defense.

And I've never been a fan of Sarkeesian, too often I doubt she even plays games. But more power to her, anyone trying to silence her is a dipshit.

And that's the problem. Those idiotic threats. There ARE issues in games journalism that should be addressed, and I had hopes gamergate could push the big websites into reexamining their coziness with the industry.

Instead, they got an out. Some idiot made a death threat, the hashtag became a joke, and now they are the reasonable ones defending against the crazies. IGN can continue plastering ads for a game they are gonna review all over their site, and if you challenge that, you must be one of those woman hating gamersgate people!
 

Galactic Fork

A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
That's both oversimplifying and giving it more intent than it actually has. What you have is a bunch of angry people with no focus and no plan having some vague complaint about 'ethics' but with no idea what to do about it except be mad. And then you have the maniacs. The problem is that these people just aren't interested in distancing from the maniacs, partly because the maniacs' counter-intelligence is pretty effective.

I mean, gamergaters include kids like these. I can't honestly claim that these confused teenagers understand what they're really doing or saying.

And honestly, this isn't that far from the status quo. Gamers being mostly confused and ineffectual (but really really mad) happened with the Sims debacle, it happened with Mass Effect 3*. The difference is scale and persistence, and scale's a pretty big differentiator in that it gives the terrorist assholes plenty of cover in which to act.

* I think this is why companies and publishers kind of don't know what to do. They're used to ceding and apologizing to smallish infuriated groups, but this group is kind of particularly abhorrent. Intel was the first to take a step, and it was a bad step.

But do you really think it's a coincidence that the time we got this scale and persistence when the initial driving force was women expressing their opinion about video game culture?
 
That's both oversimplifying and giving it more intent than it actually has. What you have is a bunch of angry people with no focus and no plan having some vague complaint about 'ethics' but with no idea what to do about it except be mad. And then you have the maniacs. The problem is that these people just aren't interested in distancing from the maniacs, partly because the maniacs' counter-intelligence is pretty effective.

I mean, gamergaters include kids like these. I can't honestly claim that these confused teenagers understand what they're really doing or saying.
I had never seen this article before.

We started #GamerGate with a simple request. Give us some f-ing integrity with your reporting. Don't suck up to developers, over-hyping video games that couldn't live up to the impossibly high standards you set them to (See Watch_Dogs and Destiny) Were they bad games? Not really, but they didn't deserve as much of the hype that they received.

So this is the first time I've seen an example of what gamergate wants changed. And I have to ask...is less coverage ethics? They are reporting on the big tentpole AAA games because A) there is interest from consumers because those games have massive marketing budgets aimed at consumers and B) publishers spend that marketing budget having preview events and flying their developers in for interviews or Game Informer staff embedded in the studio.

Is the answer here "Don't cover bad games?" Is that what people want? So, an industry that isn't particularly interested in Nintendo shouldn't have covered, say, Bayonetta 2? Should no one have talked about cult favorites like Deadly Premonition, ignored titles like Hyrule Warriors, etc., on the expectation that they will be bad and thus don't really warrant coverage?

Throw me a bone here, Gamergate, I am trying to understand this.

Also I want to make sure I add: journalistic entities weren't overhyping Watch_Dogs, consumers were. Most news reports were "Oh, this might be cool, but I wonder how bad it must have been to get delayed like that."
 

Blyr

Banned
Also I want to make sure I add: journalistic entities weren't overhyping Watch_Dogs, consumers were. Most news reports were "Oh, this might be cool, but I wonder how bad it must have been to get delayed like that."

To emphasize on this, a lot of people and websites I follow (on Watch_Dogs specifically) seemed incredibly skeptical of how it would perform, and weren't very impressed with what they had seen before.

I got the general message to "temper your expectations" before launch, which I'm glad for. I haven't really seen many articles specifically hyping things, mostly saying "What we've seen so far isn't that good. It can certainly change because we've only seen an early build, BUT..."
 

JackDT

Member
Instead, they got an out. Some idiot made a death threat, the hashtag became a joke, and now they are the reasonable ones defending against the crazies. IGN can continue plastering ads for a game they are gonna review all over their site, and if you challenge that, you must be one of those woman hating gamersgate people!

People are doing that right now. See Rab Florence (the man behind the original Dorito Gate) going after the Games Media Awards bullshit. GamerGate couldn't care less.

https://twitter.com/robertflorence

GamerGate uses freaking RPS as the example of corruption in journalism. A site I would honestly argue is the best one in terms of ethical journalism.
 
I had never seen this article before.



So this is the first time I've seen an example of what gamergate wants changed. And I have to ask...is less coverage ethics? They are reporting on the big tentpole AAA games because A) there is interest from consumers because those games have massive marketing budgets aimed at consumers and B) publishers spend that marketing budget having preview events and flying their developers in for interviews or Game Informer staff embedded in the studio.

Is the answer here "Don't cover bad games?" Is that what people want? So, an industry that isn't particularly interested in Nintendo shouldn't have covered, say, Bayonetta 2? Should no one have talked about cult favorites like Deadly Premonition, ignored titles like Hyrule Warriors, etc., on the expectation that they will be bad and thus don't really warrant coverage?

Throw me a bone here, Gamergate, I am trying to understand this.

Also I want to make sure I add: journalistic entities weren't overhyping Watch_Dogs, consumers were. Most news reports were "Oh, this might be cool, but I wonder how bad it must have been to get delayed like that."

It sounds like a 'don't hype up games I don't like at release'.

I'm not sure how this is suppose to be an objective thing. It would seemingly require all previews be low key, even for games with a lot of interest.
 

soultron

Banned
How can anyone quantify hype or how much a writer or entire outlet has "sucked up" to a developer or publisher? Nobody can. That's subjective and depending on your own interpretation.
 

obonicus

Member
But do you really think it's a coincidence that the time we got this scale and persistence when the initial driving force was women expressing their opinion about video game culture?

I don't think it's a coincidence at all. For starters, #gamergate was started by a misogynist. And the change in discourse in games touches on these people's privilege, so they legitimately feel threatened.

My belief is that the 'core' of gamergate is a bunch of male gamers who fail to examine their privilege and who think their half-baked 'ethical' concerns are more important than whether someone is being harassed. These are the people who think it's super reasonable to respond to harassment with 'well, there's no proof that it was gamergate'; they're not personally harassing, so any attempt to call them out for it is an unwarranted personal attack (in their mind at least). They're against harassment on paper, but they're not going to do anything about it. These people are the walruses, from that comic.
 
Same here, Zoe Quinn is an awful person (cuz of the gamejam thing, couldnt care less bout cheating) and I was disgusted how many people jumped to her defense.

As I recall, Zoe Quinn had problems with the setup for The Fine Young Capitalists and said so in public. I don't get why this makes her an awful person.
 

Galactic Fork

A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
It sounds like a 'don't hype up games I don't like at release'.

I'm not sure how this is suppose to be an objective thing. It would seemingly require all previews be low key, even for games with a lot of interest.

But then when a game is great to them, the same people will get pissed that the game wasn't hyped enough, so not enough people know about it.
 
if you do a preview of a game and it gets millions of hits how likely are you to do another preview when the devs release more information?

that's not unethical it's keeping the lights on.
 
But then when a game is great to them, the same people will get pissed that the game wasn't hyped enough, so not enough people know about it.

Which is the entire reason this is an impossible demand. Not everyone looks for the same things in games, and there is no way to cover them all. So you cover what you feel is the most interesting of the bunch that you know about, or the ones that are the most popular.
 

CurlyW

Member
IGN can continue plastering ads for a game they are gonna review all over their site, and if you challenge that, you must be one of those woman hating gamersgate people!

Actually, Gamergate has never had an issue with IGN doing that at all. Never any issues with any AAA developers.

The "corruption" Gamergate has been fighting has entirely been related to indie developers.
 
Actually, Gamergate has never had an issue with IGN doing that at all. Never any issues with any AAA developers.

The corruption Gamergate has been fighting has entirely been related to indie developers.

Which is such bullshit when ethically, bigger companies are always taking advantage... And who are the bigger problem. I have no idea why there's this war on indies who sell $15 games.
 

obonicus

Member
So this is the first time I've seen an example of what gamergate wants changed. And I have to ask...is less coverage ethics? They are reporting on the big tentpole AAA games because A) there is interest from consumers because those games have massive marketing budgets aimed at consumers and B) publishers spend that marketing budget having preview events and flying their developers in for interviews or Game Informer staff embedded in the studio.

I don't think they know what they want. They're not happy and they want change. But the change they're getting isn't the change they want. They want the games they like to get good reviews and the games they don't to get bad reviews -- and coverage should follow that accordingly. It's just nonsense. Go to quarter to three, read Tom Chick's reviews when they differ a lot from metacritic (Halo 4 is a good example) and see what people have to say about ethics when it disagrees with them.

I posted the article more as an example that not every gamergater is horrible, some are just dumb teens (or the adult equivalent); given how stupidity trumps evil most of the time, I'd be willing to assume that gamergate is like, 85% stupid, 15% evil (maybe 95/5 or 99/1 -- not an exact science).
 

JackDT

Member
We started #GamerGate with a simple request. Give us some f-ing integrity with your reporting. Don't suck up to developers, over-hyping video games that couldn't live up to the impossibly high standards you set them to (See Watch_Dogs and Destiny) Were they bad games? Not really, but they didn't deserve as much of the hype that they received.

So this is the first time I've seen an example of what gamergate wants changed. And I have to ask...is less coverage ethics? They are reporting on the big tentpole AAA games because A) there is interest from consumers because those games have massive marketing budgets aimed at consumers and B) publishers spend that marketing budget having preview events and flying their developers in for interviews or Game Informer staff embedded in the studio.

Is the answer here "Don't cover bad games?" Is that what people want? So, an industry that isn't particularly interested in Nintendo shouldn't have covered, say, Bayonetta 2? Should no one have talked about cult favorites like Deadly Premonition, ignored titles like Hyrule Warriors, etc., on the expectation that they will be bad and thus don't really warrant coverage?

Throw me a bone here, Gamergate, I am trying to understand this.

Also I want to make sure I add: journalistic entities weren't overhyping Watch_Dogs, consumers were. Most news reports were "Oh, this might be cool, but I wonder how bad it must have been to get delayed like that."

I think it's worse than that, in that GamerGate's actions so far have been to go after the people most critical of developers, and the communities most opposed to hyping up AAA bullshit. Depression Quest. Women freelancers who write 20 page articles on obscure indy games. IGF. Indiecade. Articles critical of GTA 5. A single review deviates from metacritic and it's cause for revolution. Gone Home. Rock Paper Shotgun.

Yeah the main character and plot of Watch Dogs was such a stereotype: grizzled 30 year dude, character motivation... family member died. The set of people critical of reusing tired tropes like that certainly includes 'Literally Who 2' herself Anita Sarkeesian.
 
Dave Willis just threw down:

1413519048-2014-10-17-silverbullet.png
 

frequency

Member
I think the broader question this gets to is whether, when a person apologizes for past behavior and claims to have learned something they previously did not understand, they actually demonstrate that they have internalized their new knowledge in order to become a more well-rounded and empathetic person and less willing to use ignorance as a bludgeon. In the case of Jim, it's not just that he's apologized for past comments, but that he's consistently demonstrated through his work since then that he has a much better understanding of feminism and gender-related issues, that he understands the uncomfortable and sometimes hostile relationship this industry has with women and minorities, and that his overall style of criticism is less focused on other-ing people and more about identifying systemic issues within the industry. In sum, he's become a more nuanced and empathetic critic.

On the other hand, how has Milo demonstrated his newfound appreciation of video game culture and his brand new empathy for the disenfranchised and disgruntled 18-35 male audience? By focusing his attention on constructive ways to address the issues of gender in the industry? By trying to find ways to act as an advocate to publicly correct the very misperceptions about gamers he used to have? Or by opportunistically stoking the flames of the movement's worst behavior, encouraging further harassment campaigns against women, displaying a by-now-unsurprising lack of empathy toward anybody who doesn't fit into his worldview, and thus perpetuating the very behavior that characterized his negative images about gamers in the first place?

He hasn't actually turned around on anything. Women and feminism are still the enemy, as they always have been to conservatives who flock to Breitbart and co, he's just added feminist gamers into the list. The "media", being a monolithic hive-mind entity controlled by liberals in academia, are still the enemy as they always have been, he's just added the gaming media into the list. All that happened is he stumbled upon a previously untapped but rich source of outrage in the set of young angry sexually frustrated gamers convinced that there are massive external forces conspiring to keep them down and emasculate them, and realized they were a perfect fit to be drafted into his existing audience. To the propagandists who run the perpetual outrage machine that is conservative media, this is pure gold, like discovering a new animal species that survives off cheap feed and shits foie gras -- a convenient, rich, untapped source of a scarce resource ready to be herded up and exploited for pure profit. But it does absolutely nothing to demonstrate anything that could be considered a genuine change of heart or growth as a human being.

I see where you're coming from but still...

He's still not a nice person I would want to associate with. I also find it telling, for other reasons than that article, that he is one of the public faces of GamerGate.
But he has stopped speaking with such demeaning language about games and the people who play them. And he did try to actually play something.

I don't know his past regarding women. I don't think he has changed for that.

There is a lot of "ammo" against Milo if people want to get into attack mode. But for his views about gamers as seen in that article, I don't think he's speaking like that anymore. Maybe it's for personal gain and his views of gamers and gaming hasn't truly changed but we can't say that for sure. We can say that he has played games live since then, which shows me that at least he's willing to pretend to have accepted games and gamers.

I hate that I'm defending him. I guess I'm not really defending him in particular. I'm just against the act of digging up previous statements that have been apologized for as live ammo in current discussions.

I hate it when people do it with Jim. I hate it when people do it with Leigh. I hate it when people did it with zeldablue in this very thread (and spoke out against the poster who did that too). And I hate it when people do it with Milo.

But this is just my opinion on it. Keep on with it I guess if you want. It makes me cringe when I see it so I wanted to comment. It just seems hypocritical to me and as much as I stand against Milo, I also stand against holding people to past transgressions they have apologized for. My personal stance on it is that we can be better than that.

In any case, carry on. I didn't/don't want to make a big deal out of it.
 

Geek

Ninny Prancer
I had a ridiculously long commute home today (thanks, multiple accidents on 520 in Seattle!!), so I decided to reorganize, edit, and expand on my post.

Enjoy, do with it whatever you want:


GamerGate's original claims are that Zoe Quinn slept around for coverage favors. This was debunked literally months ago. And yet it persists.



Other bullshit about Zoe Quinn


  • Zoe Quinn was and still is today regularly accused of doxxing herself.
  • Zoe Quinn was and still is today accused of faking death, rape, and other threats.
  • Zoe Quinn doesn't actually sell the game she's accused of sleeping around to get coverage of. It's a free game about Depression, called Depression Quest, created to help others learn to live and deal with the disease. She does take donations, and was accused of lying about giving those donations to charity. However, the charity confirmed the donations were actually received
  • When accusations of those lies first arose, GamerGate started donating to that charity in her place. After the charity confirmed receiving the donations, GamerGate started harassing the charity and threatening it with legal action because they claim they "didn't disclose publicly" they had received donations from her (even though that is not actuall illegal). This is a charity is made up of volunteers and a part-time paid intern, helping people deal with depression
  • Zoe Quinn is frequently accused of winning an award (instead of Papers Please) for Depression Quest because she slept with someone. In actuality, her game didn't receive an award, but just an honorable mention. Papers Please did indeed win the award. No evidence backs up the claim she slept with someone to get the....honorable mention.
  • Zoe Quinn was accused to have "deliberately sabotaged, DDOSed, doxxed, and shut down" TFYC ("The Fine Young Capitalists") because they were "competition" for Rebel Game Jam. The reality is that it's yet another bunch of bullshit accusations against her.

Other bullshit about Anita Sarkeesian



Even more bullshit



So what is GamerGate, in actuality?



Hey. Just wanted to say thanks for continuing to repost and update this information in an effort to help people better understand the facts.
 
Same here, Zoe Quinn is an awful person (cuz of the gamejam thing, couldnt care less bout cheating) and I was disgusted how many people jumped to her defense.

And I've never been a fan of Sarkeesian, too often I doubt she even plays games. But more power to her, anyone trying to silence her is a dipshit.

And that's the problem. Those idiotic threats. There ARE issues in games journalism that should be addressed, and I had hopes gamergate could push the big websites into reexamining their coziness with the industry.

Instead, they got an out. Some idiot made a death threat, the hashtag became a joke, and now they are the reasonable ones defending against the crazies. IGN can continue plastering ads for a game they are gonna review all over their site, and if you challenge that, you must be one of those woman hating gamersgate people!

I've heard a lot of people say they think Zoe Quinn is an awful person. Now it seems that you are definitely against the harassment that both she and others have suffered, but I was wondering why you feel comfortable judging her? Please don't take this as an attack, it's just odd to me. I mean, sure, from the one-sided story we've heard from her ex, she doesn't sound like the kind of girl I would want to date, but who knows? No one really knows what went down but the two of them, and really, it's no one's business.

I don't think they know what they want. They're not happy and they want change. But the change they're getting isn't the change they want. They want the games they like to get good reviews and the games they don't to get bad reviews -- and coverage should follow that accordingly. It's just nonsense. Go to quarter to three, read Tom Chick's reviews when they differ a lot from metacritic (Halo 4 is a good example) and see what people have to say about ethics when it disagrees with them.

I posted the article more as an example that not every gamergater is horrible, some are just dumb teens (or the adult equivalent); given how stupidity trumps evil most of the time, I'd be willing to assume that gamergate is like, 85% stupid, 15% evil (maybe 95/5 or 99/1 -- not an exact science).

I've read a lot of previous posts that really framed it well for me. They're lost in the 150+ pages of this thread, but basically they argued that many "traditional" gamers that are afraid of losing their identity as more diversity and awareness enters their hobby. And in my opinion, a lot of the anger is tied into the same kind of frustrations that a lot of young men like the Santa Barbara shooter experienced. There's a problem with the entitlement amongst many young men that I feel is the source of much of the anger in GG.
 

Angry Fork

Member
Is there anyone part of gamergate that isn't a libertarian or borderline fascist, just wondering. Or a non-women hating portion that really does just want game journalism to stop being so bad?
 
I feel like people are insisting there is a scenario where publishers are directly paying for coverage. The evidence of this appears to be that there are full-page ads for games, so clearly publishers are controlling the content.

So let me present my bona fides here: I used to be a games writer and I know plenty of people who still are. I have worked at several newspapers, all with sales departments. I have a bachelor's degree in journalism and have edited a book on journalistic ethics. The book was, in part, written by my father.

The scenario you have in your head? It happened once and it was so embarrassing for everyone in the industry that people have made fun of the organization (Gamespot) for years because of it. It happened because Gamespot was losing money and couldn't afford to lose advertisers so they let Sony and Eidos (who was kind of a slimy publisher pre-Square Enix) dictate content control. The people who got fired or left, the people saying right now that the Gamergate concern over ethics is farcical, chose to stand up for their words and opinions. Ethics has always been paramount to 99.9% of game journalists. The people who think that, because there is a Borderlands 2.5 background on a website that the reviewer is encouraged to give it more coverage or a better review, sales (i.e. the department looking to exchange ad space and money) and the editorial staff are separate and there has been a brick wall between them especially since the Gamespot incident. The two groups have no control over each other - they won't turn down an ad because the game is bad, they won't bloat a score because the game is advertising on the site.

The games that are getting huge coverage aren't getting it because the publisher is paying money for coverage. For one, that one be exorbitantly expensive. For two, you don't need to pay someone for coverage. You offer it to them and they'll usually do it because they want to keep people informed and because more content is always better than less. It's not that the AAA games get more coverage because they're spending more, they're spending more so consumers will be interested, and that drives clicks. Lots of people then go read those previews for hyped AAA games BECAUSE YOU, AS A CONSUMER, ARE HYPING THEM. If you didn't want them to cover Destiny, maybe you shouldn't have made it the best-selling new IP in a decade and sold out three waves of pre-orders for a game apparently no one likes (especially, as it turns out, reviewers).

If you want to know why writers don't say "Man, this game sucks," in preview events, it's because they have hope it won't suck and, here's the funny part, because people complain when you do that. Not publishers, you, the reader. They bitch that the writer isn't giving the game a fair chance. Oh no, people don't like Microsoft exclusive Too Human, what a biased site! Oh no, people have concerns about [niche Japanese title], they just hate everything that isn't a western FPS! Then when a game that doesn't entirely deliver gets a non-committal preview, people feel betrayed that the game was not condemned in an alpha state. Game journalists should have smothered it in the crib, they say.

Also, let's talk about embargoes, because this is always the big one. And if you think I'm going to blame you, the consumer, on this, you're partly right! I see so many people say "Embargoes are the publishers trying to keep information out of the hands of consumers, they are inherently unethical." So let's have this thought experiment.

Imagine there's Jason from Kotaku over there.
Imagine there's me from Whogivesashit dot com over here.

Jason gets his copy of Goat Killer VI, the hypest game out there, on Wednesday afternoon. Since I am in San Francisco, I get mine the Tuesday morning before. The game comes out the following Tuesday. As Jason puts his game in to the PS4, he checks his phone and sees a GAF thread saying "WHOGIVESASHIT GIVES GOAT KILLER VI PERFECT 10!" So people are going crazy to click on this review and find out just how awesome this totally awesome sequel is because it is the only review out there. Jason, who takes his time to play the game and gets a review out on Monday morning, isn't nearly as happy with it. He ran into significant bugs, discovered the ending was half-finished, and the game is rife with microtransactions, none of which made it into my review. But no one cares about Jason's far better-written review because everyone already made up their minds when it got a 10.

Embargoes ensure this isn't a thing. Whether you get a game on the Tuesday or Wednesday, everyone puts it up on that Monday. Everyone has time to play it and no one is scrambling to finish it to get a review up first. For the publishers, this makes sure no one scrambles through a game and ignores all the good parts. For reviewers, this makes sure they have ample time to play a game and write a review without worrying they're doing damage to the site by doing it right. For the consumers, it makes sure we get the best possible review we can get.

Now, you might ask about release day embargoes and, you know what, that does suck. That is a publisher knowing you are so beholden to the preorder and hype machine that it doesn't especially matter when the reviews come out. And you know who you should blame for that? Not the reviewers who accept the embargoes (the only other option is waiting for the game to come out, so it's not like you would get the review any faster), you should blame the publishers. The way you solve that is by telling them you won't pre-order games anymore because you don't like that they're holding back reviews.

But then every Assassin's Creed Unity thread is filled with "Day one" or the Dragon Age 3 thread I saw the other day where someone proclaimed it to be their GOTY and they can't wait to try it, so I don't have a super high hope of this one happening.

There have been occasions where publishers have said they'll only allow an earlier embargo date for review scores past a certain threshold - usually a 9 or above. This does happen. You know who's never a part of those early review embargoes? Kotaku, Gamespot, IGN, Giant Bomb, etc. It's always the little guys. Even if they do give it a good score, they don't bother with those tiered embargoes and no one gives them enough credit for that.

The reason it tends to happen with Youtubers more often is because youtubers are small, they want hits, they want free things, and they feel like celebrities when publishers are paying attention to them. This isn't true of all of them, but it is the reasoning publishers use when they do pursue Youtubers for threshold embargoes and preview events.

Honestly, if Gamergate wanted to stand for ethics, they would pursue publishers' many, many problems. But it's not about that, because it's about journalism. But then it's not about that, either, because it's about women.
 

JC Sera

Member
Is this the one you're talking about?

Edit: Beaten.
Thanks guys :) Such a good comic.

Is there anyone part of gamergate that isn't a libertarian or borderline fascist, just wondering. Or a non-women hating portion that really does just want game journalism to stop being so bad?
Boogie is the biggest example I can think of. Not sure if TB counts as libertarian or not.
 
I for one don't really care what stance he has in this controversy, his comments are despicable.

Yeah, that was just plain wrong.


Thank you for keeping to use the word "gatesplaining". It is so amazingly fitting.

Poe's law is fairly strong where GG is concerned.

I've missed the sarcasm in this thread too many times.

What problem would you consider difficult to fix without positive examples? Genuinly curious.

I kind of feel that Anita's videos would benefit from more examples of "this is how to do it right". It is both more instructive and helps to clarify the point. It also kind of helps to disarm some of the detractors and set people up for more positive attitude towards her videos, although I suspect this is largely a lost cause by now.

The timing of this game couldn't be worse considering the gigantic spotlight that is currently on the gaming world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrX7G-1xPLs

I am so sad to discover that this is not a satire. Oh well, let us first see if that game even gets released.

This is quietly beautiful:

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2014...sale-more-than-20-games-30-movies-discounted/

PSN discounting a pile of games and movies that all (as far as I can tell) have cool lady protagonists.

This is a very nice subtle touch. I wonder if they will still get attacked as "evil SJWs" for that.

https://medium.com/@poopsockholmes/the-bad-apples-of-gamergate-ba39f8fd485

Not sure if posted. A long, detailed list of several of the assholes in GG, many of which have thousands of followers and Gaters eating out of the palm of their hand. Sad thing is it isn't even that complete.

I still want to see a large picture with featured quotes from people like Adam Baldwin and Milo, titled "Faces of Gamergate".

I had a ridiculously long commute home today (thanks, multiple accidents on 520 in Seattle!!), so I decided to reorganize, edit, and expand on my post.

Enjoy, do with it whatever you want:

[...]

Thank you for maintaining this post!
 
Also, an addendum: I have worked with sales departments for sites like video game websites. You know why publishers don't care that much about advertising on video game websites?

Because they know you'll buy the game, anyway, so the ad is wasted money.
 
Is there anyone part of gamergate that isn't a libertarian or borderline fascist, just wondering. Or a non-women hating portion that really does just want game journalism to stop being so bad?

I think anyone who isn't needs to inform themselves about what GG actually stands for. I see them out there, they exist. It's sad.
 
Is there anyone part of gamergate that isn't a libertarian or borderline fascist, just wondering. Or a non-women hating portion that really does just want game journalism to stop being so bad?

There are people in gamergate, yes, that don't think it is based in hate.

But that's how the few "in charge" want it.
 
I feel like people are insisting there is a scenario where publishers are directly paying for coverage. The evidence of this appears to be that there are full-page ads for games, so clearly publishers are controlling the content.

So let me present my bona fides here: I used to be a games writer and I know plenty of people who still are. I have worked at several newspapers, all with sales departments. I have a bachelor's degree in journalism and have edited a book on journalistic ethics. The book was, in part, written by my father.

The scenario you have in your head? It happened once and it was so embarrassing for everyone in the industry that people have made fun of the organization (Gamespot) for years because of it. It happened because Gamespot was losing money and couldn't afford to lose advertisers so they let Sony and Eidos (who was kind of a slimy publisher pre-Square Enix) dictate content control. The people who got fired or left, the people saying right now that the Gamergate concern over ethics is farcical, chose to stand up for their words and opinions. Ethics has always been paramount to 99.9% of game journalists. The people who think that, because there is a Borderlands 2.5 background on a website that the reviewer is encouraged to give it more coverage or a better review, sales (i.e. the department looking to exchange ad space and money) and the editorial staff are separate and there has been a brick wall between them especially since the Gamespot incident. The two groups have no control over each other - they won't turn down an ad because the game is bad, they won't bloat a score because the game is advertising on the site.

The games that are getting huge coverage aren't getting it because the publisher is paying money for coverage. For one, that one be exorbitantly expensive. For two, you don't need to pay someone for coverage. You offer it to them and they'll usually do it because they want to keep people informed and because more content is always better than less. It's not that the AAA games get more coverage because they're spending more, they're spending more so consumers will be interested, and that drives clicks. Lots of people then go read those previews for hyped AAA games BECAUSE YOU, AS A CONSUMER, ARE HYPING THEM. If you didn't want them to cover Destiny, maybe you shouldn't have made it the best-selling new IP in a decade and sold out three waves of pre-orders for a game apparently no one likes (especially, as it turns out, reviewers).

If you want to know why writers don't say "Man, this game sucks," in preview events, it's because they have hope it won't suck and, here's the funny part, because people complain when you do that. Not publishers, you, the reader. They bitch that the writer isn't giving the game a fair chance. Oh no, people don't like Microsoft exclusive Too Human, what a biased site! Oh no, people have concerns about [niche Japanese title], they just hate everything that isn't a western FPS! Then when a game that doesn't entirely deliver gets a non-committal preview, people feel betrayed that the game was not condemned in an alpha state. Game journalists should have smothered it in the crib, they say.

Also, let's talk about embargoes, because this is always the big one. And if you think I'm going to blame you, the consumer, on this, you're partly right! I see so many people say "Embargoes are the publishers trying to keep information out of the hands of consumers, they are inherently unethical." So let's have this thought experiment.

Imagine there's Jason from Kotaku over there.
Imagine there's me from Whogivesashit dot com over here.

Jason gets his copy of Goat Killer VI, the hypest game out there, on Wednesday afternoon. Since I am in San Francisco, I get mine the Tuesday morning before. The game comes out the following Tuesday. As Jason puts his game in to the PS4, he checks his phone and sees a GAF thread saying "WHOGIVESASHIT GIVES GOAT KILLER VI PERFECT 10!" So people are going crazy to click on this review and find out just how awesome this totally awesome sequel is because it is the only review out there. Jason, who takes his time to play the game and gets a review out on Monday morning, isn't nearly as happy with it. He ran into significant bugs, discovered the ending was half-finished, and the game is rife with microtransactions, none of which made it into my review. But no one cares about Jason's far better-written review because everyone already made up their minds when it got a 10.

Embargoes ensure this isn't a thing. Whether you get a game on the Tuesday or Wednesday, everyone puts it up on that Monday. Everyone has time to play it and no one is scrambling to finish it to get a review up first. For the publishers, this makes sure no one scrambles through a game and ignores all the good parts. For reviewers, this makes sure they have ample time to play a game and write a review without worrying they're doing damage to the site by doing it right. For the consumers, it makes sure we get the best possible review we can get.

Now, you might ask about release day embargoes and, you know what, that does suck. That is a publisher knowing you are so beholden to the preorder and hype machine that it doesn't especially matter when the reviews come out. And you know who you should blame for that? Not the reviewers who accept the embargoes (the only other option is waiting for the game to come out, so it's not like you would get the review any faster), you should blame the publishers. The way you solve that is by telling them you won't pre-order games anymore because you don't like that they're holding back reviews.

But then every Assassin's Creed Unity thread is filled with "Day one" or the Dragon Age 3 thread I saw the other day where someone proclaimed it to be their GOTY and they can't wait to try it, so I don't have a super high hope of this one happening.

There have been occasions where publishers have said they'll only allow an earlier embargo date for review scores past a certain threshold - usually a 9 or above. This does happen. You know who's never a part of those early review embargoes? Kotaku, Gamespot, IGN, Giant Bomb, etc. It's always the little guys. Even if they do give it a good score, they don't bother with those tiered embargoes and no one gives them enough credit for that.

The reason it tends to happen with Youtubers more often is because youtubers are small, they want hits, they want free things, and they feel like celebrities when publishers are paying attention to them. This isn't true of all of them, but it is the reasoning publishers use when they do pursue Youtubers for threshold embargoes and preview events.

Honestly, if Gamergate wanted to stand for ethics, they would pursue publishers' many, many problems. But it's not about that, because it's about journalism. But then it's not about that, either, because it's about women.

If we ever get a clean journalism thread, this needs to be in the OP and on every page. Thank you.
 
I kind of feel that Anita's videos would benefit from more examples of "this is how to do it right". It is both more instructive and helps to clarify the point. It also kind of helps to disarm some of the detractors and set people up for more positive attitude towards her videos, although I suspect this is largely a lost cause by now.

Then they would complain that she was trying to tell the devs how to do their jobs. Which is something they already yell at her for. It's a no-win situation for her. I think one of her videos is scheduled to do this though.

This is a very nice subtle touch. I wonder if they will still get attacked as "evil SJWs" for that.

The channers have a hatred of sony already, this won't change much. Posting anything pro-sony is libel to get your thread/post saged to hell and back if not outright deleted and yourself a short term ban for crapposting.
 
Is there anyone part of gamergate that isn't a libertarian or borderline fascist, just wondering. Or a non-women hating portion that really does just want game journalism to stop being so bad?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134738422&postcount=14751

Some women of pro-GamerGate who were asked to show on a HuffPo live stream believe the "vast vast vast majority of them [GamerGaters] are pro-feminist" and that they really want politics out of just playing games (which is a hilariously dumb argument). Women should absolutely not be a part of this GamerGate conversation, they believe. Oh and they list NeoGAF as a site that represents "corrupt journalism" and is a "prominent figure of the game journalism industry today" that needs to be shamed. They believe publicists are still giving journalists money to give good scores.

Keep in mind, they are the mildest form of pro-GamerGate you're gonna get and even they're a bit delusional or not all up on facts.
 

Galactic Fork

A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Instead, they got an out. Some idiot made a death threat, the hashtag became a joke, and now they are the reasonable ones defending against the crazies. IGN can continue plastering ads for a game they are gonna review all over their site, and if you challenge that, you must be one of those woman hating gamersgate people!

What is the alternative though? There have been game ads since there have been game magazines and reviews. Sites need advertising. The Gamergate people know this because they went after Intel to remove ads from Gamasutra. The best advertising will obviously come from game makers. The interest in games is built into the audience. And I don't think the sites would be sustainable with ads only from peripheral products like controllers and random accessories, or even non related product ads (this page is brought to you by Ocean Spray Cranberry Juice).

As for which games to advertise. It's not like the gaming sites know in advance if a game is going to be good, and previews can only tell you so much. So they have companies buying ads on their site. And they'll buy ads a while before the game is even released, and before review copies are sent. It's advertising.

Pulling ads if the review is bad, ether by the site itself or the advertiser would cause all sorts of issues. MHWilliams posted a while back about how it's handled on the site he writes for:
You want to know about ad revenue? For most sites, like mine, ads and editorial never meet. I believe our ads are handled by our parent company, Gamer Network, but I never see or hear anything about whoever handles them. When the ad takeovers (when the entire site is one big ad) pop up, I'm as surprised as you are.

As I said previously, that's how you end up with things like a full Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel ad takeover, while our review is a 2.5/5. We don't talk to them, they don't talk to us.
I believe most sites operate in the same manner, but that would be up to others to confirm.

I think that's the best way to handle advertising, as long as the game publishers get no say about reviews, I don't think there's any reasonable alternative. I'd love to hear some, though.
 

MrGerbils

Member
I had a ridiculously long commute home today (thanks, multiple accidents on 520 in Seattle!!), so I decided to reorganize, edit, and expand on my post.

Enjoy, do with it whatever you want:


GamerGate's original claims are that Zoe Quinn slept around for coverage favors. This was debunked literally months ago. And yet it persists.



Other bullshit about Zoe Quinn


  • Zoe Quinn was and still is today regularly accused of doxxing herself.
  • Zoe Quinn was and still is today accused of faking death, rape, and other threats.
  • Zoe Quinn doesn't actually sell the game she's accused of sleeping around to get coverage of. It's a free game about Depression, called Depression Quest, created to help others learn to live and deal with the disease. She does take donations, and was accused of lying about giving those donations to charity. However, the charity confirmed the donations were actually received
  • When accusations of those lies first arose, GamerGate started donating to that charity in her place. After the charity confirmed receiving the donations, GamerGate started harassing the charity and threatening it with legal action because they claim they "didn't disclose publicly" they had received donations from her (even though that is not actuall illegal). This is a charity is made up of volunteers and a part-time paid intern, helping people deal with depression
  • Zoe Quinn is frequently accused of winning an award (instead of Papers Please) for Depression Quest because she slept with someone. In actuality, her game didn't receive an award, but just an honorable mention. Papers Please did indeed win the award. No evidence backs up the claim she slept with someone to get the....honorable mention.
  • Zoe Quinn was accused to have "deliberately sabotaged, DDOSed, doxxed, and shut down" TFYC ("The Fine Young Capitalists") because they were "competition" for Rebel Game Jam. The reality is that it's yet another bunch of bullshit accusations against her.

Other bullshit about Anita Sarkeesian



Even more bullshit



So what is GamerGate, in actuality?




This is amazing. Thank you for assembling all this.
 

Angry Fork

Member
I don't know what group I would be put in. I'm against censoring any speech, but people who deny patriarchy or think feminism is a bad thing are enemies. They should be allowed to say whatever they want though (besides death threats obviously).

I checked know your meme on this and saw some mods have been banning/censoring people on reddit for these things, that's fucked up to me but I don't know the context/reasoning. Based on the little I've read here and there I get the impression it's just about GG people not wanting their status as the powerful group in gaming to go away or be shared with other types of people. Do they believe that a journalist trying to further social justice/equality for women (or any non-white male group) is a bad thing or corruption?
 
The slimiest thing about #GamerGate from the beginning is that it started up over Zoe Quinn. Even if all the accusations were true and there was some impropriety in coverage, it'd be a black swan scandal. Very juicy and entertaining, yes, but not really indicative of any kind of widespread sex-for-coverage payola thing going on. The actual, systemic problems with ethics in game journalism are a completely different animal, and they definitely aren't perpetrated by indie devs with no money or power. If someone at IGN lost their minds tomorrow and said that women have no place in the gaming industry they'd likely become a GG hero even though IGN is possibly the most dewrito of gaming websites. This is so stupid I can't even.

Seriously, under a stated goal of making game journalism more ethical how the hell does Sarkeesian even get roped in. She makes fucking youtube videos. Her biggest crimes are being a feminist and being popular.

I don't know what group I would be put in. I'm against censoring any speech, but people who deny patriarchy or think feminism is a bad thing are enemies. They should be allowed to say whatever they want though (besides death threats obviously).

I haven't actually seen any "SJW"'s censor anything. Saying you don't like something is not censorship. It's expressing a goddamn opinion. GamerGate is actively censoring opposing voices through intimidation and harassment.
 

Oddduck

Member
If you want to know why writers don't say "Man, this game sucks," in preview events, it's because they have hope it won't suck and, here's the funny part, because people complain when you do that. Not publishers, you, the reader. They bitch that the writer isn't giving the game a fair chance. Oh no, people don't like Microsoft exclusive Too Human, what a biased site! Oh no, people have concerns about [niche Japanese title], they just hate everything that isn't a western FPS! Then when a game that doesn't entirely deliver gets a non-committal preview, people feel betrayed that the game was not condemned in an alpha state. Game journalists should have smothered it in the crib, they say.

That's one of the biggest problems. People want everything both ways.

Many of the people who demand for writers to be more critical...are the same people who can't handle critical reviews of their favorite games.
 
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134738422&postcount=14751

Some women of pro-GamerGate who were asked to show on a HuffPo live stream believe the "vast vast vast majority of them [GamerGaters] are pro-feminist" and that they really want politics out of just playing games (which is a hilariously dumb argument). Women should absolutely not be a part of this GamerGate conversation, they believe. Oh and they list NeoGAF as a site that represents "corrupt journalism" and is a "prominent figure of the game journalism industry today" that needs to be shamed. They believe publicists are still giving journalists money to give good scores.

Keep in mind, they are the mildest form of pro-GamerGate you're gonna get and even they're a bit delusional or not all up on facts.

Hearing NeoGAF on that list made my day. Thank you.
 

DNAbro

Member
I don't know what group I would be put in. I'm against censoring any speech, but people who deny patriarchy or think feminism is a bad thing are enemies. They should be allowed to say whatever they want though (besides death threats obviously).

I checked know your meme on this and saw some mods have been banning/censoring people on reddit for these things, that's fucked up to me but I don't know the context/reasoning. Based on the little I've read here and there I get the impression it's just about not wanting their status as the powerful group in gaming to go away or be shared with other types of people. Do they believe that a journalist trying to further social justice/equality for women (or any non-white male group) is a bad thing or corruption?

Yes to your question. "Ethics" in the case of gamergate is "biased" journalism which happens to be "social justice" related content.
 
I feel like if GG did go on Fox News, they'd get their ass handed to them.

GG would try to control the message, while Fox would try to make it about Obama or democrats in general. While Fox is down for anything that makes women look bad, their audience could give less of a fuck about video games.

I feel that if anyone representing GG went on Fox, it would become about how gamers in general are shitheads who shoot up schools because they are children.

In short, it would be a slaughter.

... so maybe they should go on Fox News.
 

mo60

Member
I feel like if GG did go on Fox News, they'd get their ass handed to them.

GG would try to control the message, while Fox would try to make it about Obama or democrats in general. While Fox is down for anything that makes women look bad, their audience could give less of a fuck about video games.

I feel that if anyone representing GG went on Fox, it would become about how gamers in general are shitheads who shoot up schools because they are children.

In short, it would be a slaughter.

... so maybe they should go on Fox News.

I think there chances of getting the mainstream media to support them has been killed in the last day or two. They may only get fringe news outlets to support them now. I do not think fox news will be one of them.
 
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