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[DoktorEvil]

But who gets to define "asshole stuff"? What's "asshole stuff" to me could be completely innocuous to you.

I don't think most people consider the consequences of their actions, such as using racial slurs or anit-semitic remarks or homophobic slurs, but having said that, I consider words to be words and are only as powerful as the person saying them.

 

[MHWilliams]

But who gets to define "asshole stuff"? What's "asshole stuff" to me could be completely innocuous to you.

"Society" makes the decision overall, but there's moral and ethical imperatives that we each operate on. Currently society as a whole thinks racism sucks and you probably shouldn't say racist things. That's why we keep saying there's no "political correctness." It's society going one way and others saying "but I liked that way better!" frequently because back in the day certain groups did not have to think about their actions or statements. They do now, that's not a bad thing.

For example, ads like this used to be normal:

Enough people yelled loudly and said "this isn't okay" and eventually changed enough minds to change society. You couldn't fly with an ad like that today.

There are things I stand up for that don't necessarily effect or bother me personally, but I can look at my situation and empathize with someone else. I can realize that "oh, I'd be pissed in that situation if it was me," do my best to help them or prevent the situation.

Are there still systemic problems in dealing with racism and sexism? Yes, and we can keep hammering on those, while we tell people, "hey, that racist thing you said wasn't cool and you aren't a cool person for trying to defend why you said it."

 

[Wazzy]

This is a weird battle you're trying to wage. Is it a trap to get more people banned? You're not allowed to argue with moderation about stuff like this.

Or you could stop reading into things?

I made my post very clear. I wanted to make sure that the mods understood the post and didn't take it literally. It's up to them if they want to keep the ban or not, I'm not starting some witch hunt or trap for bans or anything silly like that.

 

[Enzom21]

But who gets to define "asshole stuff"? What's "asshole stuff" to me could be completely innocuous to you.

"I remember, like, fifteen years ago, I was at one of those big Hollywood parties. And he was really drunk. I was with my friend, who's gay. He made a really horrible gay joke. And somehow it came up that I was Jewish. He said something about 'oven dodgers,'

"Fucking Jews... The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world… Are you a Jew?"

"You look like a fucking pig in heat, and if you get raped by a pack of niggers, it will be your fault."

"I will report her to the fucking people that take fucking money from the wetbacks."

Would you consider these things innocuous? I would imagine most people would consider these things "asshole stuff" and anyone who says that finding these things offensive is being PC, more than likely agrees with or has said similar things.

 

[DoktorEvil]

"I remember, like, fifteen years ago, I was at one of those big Hollywood parties. And he was really drunk. I was with my friend, who's gay. He made a really horrible gay joke. And somehow it came up that I was Jewish. He said something about 'oven dodgers,'

"Fucking Jews... The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world… Are you a Jew?"

"You look like a fucking pig in heat, and if you get raped by a pack of niggers, it will be your fault."

"I will report her to the fucking people that take fucking money from the wetbacks."

Would you consider these things innocuous? I would imagine most people would consider these things "asshole stuff" and anyone who says that finding these things offensive is being PC, more than likely agrees with or has said similar things.

So you agree that Mel Gibson has a drinking problem?

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

So you agree that Mel Gibson has a drinking problem?

You can be both an alcoholic and a racist, they aren't mutually exclusive.

I've gotten pretty trashed, don't recall ever saying anything close to what Mel has said.

 

[Enzom21]

So you agree that Mel Gibson has a drinking problem?

What does that have to do with what he said or him being and anti-semite and racist?
Alcohol isn't some magical elixir that makes you a racist.
Drunk or not, Mel Gibson is a racist and anti-semite.

 

[BobbyRobby]

Or you could stop reading into things?

I made my post very clear. I wanted to make sure that the mods understood the post and didn't take it literally. It's up to them if they want to keep the ban or not, I'm not starting some witch hunt or trap for bans or anything silly like that.

I was curious about your intentions, but mainly responded to you so that people would know the policy to prevent more bannings.

To answer your original question, I wouldn't care if Devolution said what she got banned for to me, and I take no joy in seeing her silenced.

 

[besada]

Let's all quit talking about Devo -- or anyone else's banning -- in the thread. If you have questions or concerns about moderation, as always, PM a mod.

In this case, I can tell you that someone has already done so, and it's been discussed by the moderation team, so we're aware.

 

[gohepcat]

I don't think most people consider the consequences of their actions, such as using racial slurs or anit-semitic remarks or homophobic slurs, but having said that, I consider words to be words and are only as powerful as the person saying them.

This means absolutely nothing.

You don't get to say "I hope you get raped by a pack of niggers" and still have a career unless you work for absolute scumbags.

Have you ever experienced this in your personal life? I've never seen anyone act this way and remain employed.

 

[Enzom21]

I don't think most people consider the consequences of their actions, such as using racial slurs or anit-semitic remarks or homophobic slurs, but having said that, I consider words to be words and are only as powerful as the person saying them.

No, people think there shouldn't be consequences of using bigoted speech.

They know what they are doing and saying for the most part but they want to be able to call people niggers without being labeled racists, want to be able to say kike without being labeled an anti-semite or say faggot without being labeled a homophobe.

Once these people say these things and are labeled as such they say things like "people are too sensitive" or "PC police". Which is essentially "Why can't I say what I want free of consequence?" which is pretty ridiculous.

 

[Slayven]

But who gets to define "asshole stuff"? What's "asshole stuff" to me could be completely innocuous to you.

I think "raped by a pack of niggers" is a pretty clear line in the sand.

 

[Enzom21]

I think "raped by a pack of niggers" is a pretty clear line in the sand.

Apparently that isn't the case, a drinking problem excuses it apparently.

 

[hendersonhank]

You don't get to say "I hope you get raped by a pack of niggers" and still have a career unless you work for absolute scumbags.

So you think you should be unemployable if someone gets ahold of a private phone conversation you have with a friend or girlfriend and is offended by what you said?

...and of course we're back to the point that apparently it's okay to still have a career if you 1) killed someone, 2) are a convicted rapist, 3) fled the country to avoid being convicted of drugging a 13 year old and sodomizing her while she was unconscious, or 4) molested one daughter and married another? Just as long as you don't say anything mean...

 

[Winter John]

This means absolutely nothing.

You don't get to say "I hope you get raped by a pack of niggers" and still have a career unless you work for absolute scumbags.

Have you ever experienced this in your personal life? I've never seen anyone act this way and remain employed.

I worked in a Chinese restaurant for 3 years and was subjected to racist abuse on a daily basis. I worked in a French restaurant and had the same thing. I've worked with sectarians who would sing their songs and talk about who they'd beaten up. I've worked with South Africans and Russians who genuinely hated homosexuals and black people, and again, often talked about who they had attacked. Not one of them was ever fired or faced any kind of discipline.

 

[MHWilliams]

So you think you should be unemployable if someone gets ahold of a private phone conversation you have with a friend or girlfriend and is offended by what you said?

...and of course we're back to the point that apparently it's okay to still have a career if you 1) killed someone, 2) are a convicted rapist, 3) fled the country to avoid being convicted of drugging a 13 year old and sodomizing her while she was unconscious, or 4) molested one daughter and married another? Just as long as you don't say anything mean...

Once again:

It is not okay. That those folks have been able to continue working in the industry (like Gibson has - again, movie every year!) doesn't mean they get a pass.

Gibson did bad and burned bridges. He still has work. The rest did bad, and somehow came back.

This does not mean they did not do bad things.

And again:

So outcast, much pariah.

He's practically hiding from the crowd.

I worked in a Chinese restaurant for 3 years and was subjected to racist abuse on a daily basis. I worked in a French restaurant and had the same thing. I've worked with sectarians who would sing their songs and talk about who they'd beaten up. I've worked with South Africans and Russians who genuinely hated homosexuals and black people, and again, often talked about who they had attacked. Not one of them was ever fired or faced any kind of discipline.

Then you worked with shitty people, time and time again. Sorry. Doesn't mean they weren't shitty or they weren't doing something wrong.

 

[Winter John]

Once again:

Then you worked with shitty people, time and time again. Sorry. Doesn't mean they weren't shitty or they weren't doing something wrong.

This is a ridiculously glib reply. Utterly pointless in fact. Obviously they were shitty people. That isn't the point.

 

[someday]

This is a ridiculously glib reply. Utterly pointless in fact. Obviously they were shitty people. That isn't the point.

I don't really know how you can compare your restaurant jobs to Mel Gibson's Hollywood career.

 

[Winter John]

I don't really know how you can compare your restaurant jobs to Mel Gibson's Hollywood career.

I wasn't comparing my restaurant jobs to Mel Gibson's Hollywood career.

 

[justjohn]

This is a ridiculously glib reply. Utterly pointless in fact. Obviously they were shitty people. That isn't the point.

Why exactly did you keep working at these places with these shitty people all these years? What's your race?

Can't imagine myself lasting even a day at a job getting getting racist abuse let alone 3 whole years.

 

[hendersonhank]

"It is not okay. That those folks have been able to continue working in the industry (like Gibson has - again, movie every year!) doesn't mean they get a pass."

He's getting work by making his own movies with his own money and getting hired by his friends.

Those other folks DO get a pass in that they are hired, actors fall over themselves to work with them, and they get nominated (and win) Academy Awards -- by many of the same people, studios, actors, producers, Academy voters, what have you, that have blackballed Mel Gibson. This is exactly the definition of hypocrisy.

I am seriously baffled that so many seem to be flat-out determined to misunderstand this. No one is saying what he said is right, no one is saying that no one should have a problem with what he said. What Oldman is saying is that many of those reviling him have said or done similar or worse things themselves, and that many of those reviling him have had no problem working with others who have said or done similar or worse things, all while acting like what Gibson did is the worst of the worst.

 

[XenodudeX]

Gary what are you doing

I'm not doing anything...

 

[someday]

"It is not okay. That those folks have been able to continue working in the industry (like Gibson has - again, movie every year!) doesn't mean they get a pass."

He's getting work by making his own movies with his own money and getting hired by his friends.

Those other folks DO get a pass in that they are hired, actors fall over themselves to work with them, and they get nominated (and win) Academy Awards -- by many of the same people, studios, actors, producers, Academy voters, what have you, that have blackballed Mel Gibson. This is exactly the definition of hypocrisy.

I am seriously baffled that so many seem to be flat-out determined to misunderstand this. No one is saying what he said is right, no one is saying that no one should have a problem with what he said. What Oldman is saying is that many of those reviling him have said or done similar or worse things themselves, and that many of those reviling him have had no problem working with others who have said or done similar or worse things, all while acting like what Gibson did is the worst of the worst.

No one is misunderstanding this situation. Many of us here also think that Hollywood has been on the wrong side of those other issues (Polanski, Woody Allen, etc) but that doesn't really change the fact that I'm not upset that Gibson has been having career troubles after the things he has done.

 

[Winter John]

Why exactly did you keep working at these places with these shitty people all these years? What's your race?

Can't imagine myself lasting even a day at a job getting getting racist abuse let alone 3 whole years.

Why? I was training to be a chef. I went where I could learn. I wanted to learn how to prepare and cook Asian and classic French cuisine properly, and I was lucky enough to get into some great kitchens. I wasn't giving up those opportunities just because of insults about my race/ colour.

 

[Maidenpool?]

Why? I was training to be a chef. I went where I could learn. I wanted to learn how to prepare and cook Asian and classic French cuisine properly, and I was lucky enough to get into some great kitchens. I wasn't giving up those opportunities just because of insults about my race/ colour.

You should have quit and sued!/sarc

 

[hendersonhank]

No one is misunderstanding this situation. Many of us here also think that Hollywood has been on the wrong side of those other issues (Polanski, Woody Allen, etc) but that doesn't really change the fact that I'm not upset that Gibson has been having career troubles after the things he has done.

Do you agree that it's hypocritical? Because that's all Oldman really said. That it's hypocritical.

 

[MHWilliams]

This is a ridiculously glib reply. Utterly pointless in fact. Obviously they were shitty people. That isn't the point.

What is your point? This is ours. This is the norm:

You say things and most employers straight up distance themselves from you if there's no legal or monetary issue in doing so. That this is not the case in your many workplaces isn't and shouldn't be normal. It's quite sad in fact. Hence my "sorry".

Do you agree that it's hypocritical? Because that's all Oldman really said. That it's hypocritical.

Oldman's hypocrisy quote is talking about society as a whole, not Hollywood. No, we aren't all hypocrites. No, we don't all say racist comments behind closed doors. Again: the comments:
http://www.playboy.com/playground/view/gary-oldman-playboy-interview?page=4

I can understand why someone like Mel, for instance, would finance his own movies now, because it has all become so crazy.

PLAYBOY: Mel Gibson?

OLDMAN: Yeah.

PLAYBOY: What do you think about what he’s gone through these past few years?

OLDMAN: [Fidgets in his seat] I just think political correctness is crap. That’s what I think about it. I think it’s like, take a fucking joke. Get over it. I heard about a science teacher who was teaching that God made the earth and God made everything and that if you believe anything else you’re stupid. A Buddhist kid in the class got very upset about this, so the parents went in and are suing the school! The school is changing its curriculum! I thought, All right, go to the school and complain about it and then that’s the end of it. But they’re going to sue! No one can take a joke anymore.

I don’t know about Mel. He got drunk and said a few things, but we’ve all said those things. We’re all fucking hypocrites. That’s what I think about it. The policeman who arrested him has never used the word nigger or that fucking Jew? I’m being brutally honest here. It’s the hypocrisy of it that drives me crazy. Or maybe I should strike that and say “the N word” and “the F word,” though there are two F words now.

PLAYBOY: The three-letter one?

OLDMAN: Alec calling someone an F-A-G in the street while he’s pissed off coming out of his building because they won’t leave him alone. I don’t blame him. So they persecute. Mel Gibson is in a town that’s run by Jews and he said the wrong thing because he’s actually bitten the hand that I guess has fed him—and doesn’t need to feed him anymore because he’s got enough dough. He’s like an outcast, a leper, you know? But some Jewish guy in his office somewhere hasn’t turned and said, “That fucking kraut” or “Fuck those Germans,” whatever it is? We all hide and try to be so politically correct. That’s what gets me. It’s just the sheer hypocrisy of everyone, that we all stand on this thing going, “Isn’t that shocking?” [smiles wryly] All right. Shall I stop talking now? What else can we discuss?

PLAYBOY: What do you think of the pope?

OLDMAN: Oh, fuck the pope! [laughs and puts head in hands] So this interview has gone very badly. You have to edit and cut half of what I’ve said, because it’s going to make me sound like a bigot.

PLAYBOY: You’re not a bigot?

OLDMAN: No, but I’m defending all the wrong people. I’m saying Mel’s all right, Alec’s a good guy. So how do I come across? Angry?

PLAYBOY: Passionate, certainly. Readers will have to form their own opinions.

OLDMAN: It’s dishonesty that frustrates me most. I can’t bear double standards. It gets under my skin more than anything.

Once again, reinforcement of his original point: we're all secretly racist, so let's let Gibson off the hook.

To which we vehemently say: Bullshit.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Well I've learned that apparently when some GAF members get drunk they become racist as fuck or something. And that it's okay because hey man, I'm drunk!

 

[someday]

Do you agree that it's hypocritical? Because that's all Oldman really said. That it's hypocritical.

Oldman said much more than that. He is saying that we all use racist language when we're upset, that we all call people faggots when they piss us off. That is patently false.

 

[hendersonhank]

Oldman's hypocrisy quote is talking about society as a whole, not Hollywood. No, we aren't all hypocrites. No, we don't all say racist comments behind closed doors. Again: the comments:

Oh, the problem is that he wasn't literally correct in saying "all". Because everything should always be taken literally. Anytime someone says "all" or "everyone", it better literally be EVERYONE.

 

[MHWilliams]

Oh, the problem is that he wasn't literally correct in saying "all". Because everything should always be taken literally. Anytime someone says "all" or "everyone", it better literally be EVERYONE.

I don't even think most of society is that bad. Either way, the Hollywood hypocrisy thing that you attributed to Oldman was incorrect at best.

 

[Toxi]

Oh, the problem is that he wasn't literally correct in saying "all". Because everything should always be taken literally. Anytime someone says "all" or "everyone", it better literally be EVERYONE.

Well, this is Gary Oldman.

 

[someday]

I guess if you get angry and call people racial slurs then you are going to be more sympathetic to Oldman and Gibson. That's the only way to keep splitting hairs about this. I simply don't get why else anyone would be worried about Gibson's career after the shit he's said and done. I have no sympathy for him. Are some people hypocrites? Of course they are but that fact doesn't change anything.

 

[Winter John]

What is your point? This is ours. This is the norm:

You say things and most employers straight up distance themselves from you if there's no legal or monetary issue in doing so. That this is not the case in your many workplaces isn't and shouldn't be normal. It's quite sad in fact. Hence my "sorry".

Unfortunately it is normal. Racism is an everyday little evil. It goes on in kitchens, building sites, hairdressers, offices, hospitals, football terraces, you name it. Every day. Comments here. Comments there. People will turn a blind eye to them, nod and laugh, or worse join in with their own. Occasionally someone will go too far and be made an example of. Does that really change anything though? Do the racist comments at the water coolers or in the changing rooms ever change? Over here a few years ago, there was a big anti racism campaign in football. The media were all congratulating themselves over how successful it had been and how they had finally driven racism off the terraces. That's a good thing. A great thing even. Except it wasn't true. I went to a Newcastle game on the same week the media was celebrating itself and listened to the monkey chants every time Andy Cole went near the ball. Went to a lot of games after that and nothing had changed. The monkey chants, the banana peels, the songs.

Anyway, I've rambled on for long enough. My main point though was that racism isn't acceptable, but it is still tolerated in business and the everyday world.

 

[Enzom21]

My main point though was that racism isn't acceptable, but it is still tolerated in business and the everyday world.

And it shouldn't be. You shouldn't have had to put up with any of the racism at any of your jobs, no one should have to deal with that. Just like no one should have to work with Mel Gibson.

 

[Derwind]

I can't wait for the day that off the cuff bigoted remarks doesn't make you a social outcast.

Basically lets reset back to the 1930's please.

- sortakindamaybenotracistGAF

 

[royalan]

"It is not okay. That those folks have been able to continue working in the industry (like Gibson has - again, movie every year!) doesn't mean they get a pass."

He's getting work by making his own movies with his own money and getting hired by his friends.

Those other folks DO get a pass in that they are hired, actors fall over themselves to work with them, and they get nominated (and win) Academy Awards -- by many of the same people, studios, actors, producers, Academy voters, what have you, that have blackballed Mel Gibson. This is exactly the definition of hypocrisy.

I am seriously baffled that so many seem to be flat-out determined to misunderstand this. No one is saying what he said is right, no one is saying that no one should have a problem with what he said. What Oldman is saying is that many of those reviling him have said or done similar or worse things themselves, and that many of those reviling him have had no problem working with others who have said or done similar or worse things, all while acting like what Gibson did is the worst of the worst.

Do you have a citation for the bolded? Because you keep falling back on this rationale that the people disgusted by Mel Gibson's blatant racism/sexism/homophobia/general-piece-of-shitism MUST be hypocrites who have done worse. I just don't buy that. Hell, I serve as an example of that not being true.

Can you give any examples of celebrities bashing Mel Gibson who are publicly known to have done worse thing than him?

 

[someday]

I've never worked in a job where outright racism is tolerated or accepted. I've never gone to work and had to deal with my co-workers or bosses calling me a nigger, dyke, whatever. Maybe some of them thought that (I'm sure some did) but that doesn't mean that I ever had to listen to it or deal with it. I would not have made the choices you made but if it worked for you, great. You chose to accept that behavior, but that still has little bearing on this topic. Obviously some people disliked what Gibson had to say and they chose not to work with him. Considering the things he has said, I'm personally glad. No, racism hasn't ended yet no one is saying that it has.

edit-in response to Winter john. I forgot to quote.

 

[block tower]

i find that most people who are prejudice hate being told they're prejudice. in fact many racists, homophobics, antisemites, do not consider their views "extreme", to them it's all very reasonable and they find ways in validating their views. personally, i don't care what someone thinks, im not the thought police; but realize that having prejudice thoughts likely means you have prejudice and people will find what you have to say offensive because of that reason. so be prepared to deal with the backlash for views that are demeaning and dismissive of whole groups of people based on prejudice.

 

[Lizardus]

I don't know why Gary is apologizing to ADL when one of its main reason for being founded was a response against mob lynching of a man who was convicted of killing a 13 year old girl and tried to blame it on a black man. Then in 1986, he was posthumously pardoned.

lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Frank

 

[faceless007]

I don't know why it happened or if it's always been this way, but people are way too fucking focused on not-so-cleverly trying to call out perceived but nonexistent "hypocrisy" as if that's a valid counter-argument or it automatically invalidates everything a person says.

It isn't and it doesn't. It's a lame deflection when you don't have anything to argue on the merits. When someone says something shitty, there's nothing wrong with other people calling it out as shitty. If your attempt at minimizing this requires you to expand the definition of "shitty" to the point where it loses all meaning, or accuse every one weighing in as being guilty of some unspecified minor malfeasance, or make an unwarranted generalization about a whole group of people and declare that they must all be hypocrites without evidence, then congratulations, no one can criticize anyone for anything and you've neutered the whole human race's ability to self-correct for shitty behavior. But that's not a very useful or helpful perspective and the only thing it does is gets shitty behavior off the hook, so really, why bother?

 

[Wag]

He's on Kimmel right now apologizing.

 

[hendersonhank]

Because you keep falling back on this rationale that the people disgusted by Mel Gibson's blatant racism/sexism/homophobia/general-piece-of-shitism MUST be hypocrites who have done worse. I just don't buy that. Hell, I serve as an example of that not being true.

You are not one of those who has blackballed Mel Gibson, are you? Gary has worked with and for those who have, for decades.

Can you give any examples of celebrities bashing Mel Gibson who are publicly known to have done worse thing than him?

The point is that what they have done is NOT public. And in fact neither is what Mel did.

And it doesn't matter if they themselves have done worse, i.e., even if they are saints like the good citizens of NeoGAF who never, no matter how angry or intoxicated, say anything worse than, or more specific than, "you lousy poopoo head". They have welcomed others who have done much worse than Mel, which is equally hypocritical.

Eagerly work with or applaud pedophiles, convicted rapists, drunk drivers who have killed people, while blackballing someone who said some awful things in private = hypocritical.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

Why does it matter if it was "public" or not (never mind that the anti-semitic/sugartits stuff was definitely in public during an arrest for drunk driving)?

Does Mel's girlfriend not get to say what Mel said to her because it was a "private" conversation? That doesn't make sense. She made it public, it was her right to, because she was the one being threatened.

 

[cubicle47b]

The excerpt is actually worse than the small sections in the OP which is kind of rare. Also, the apology letter didn't do him any favors.

 

[Dash27]

People get all worked up about "Political Correctness", which I completely sympathize with because it is a huge festering, divisive, unhelpful load of horseshit.. even if it may (or may not) be well intentioned.

That said, often times people who really get annoyed by it over correct, which is what seems to have happened here.

nigger comes from the word negus which means king actually

No, Louis CK explains the origin here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CJkiwXcvaA

 

[Omnii-chan]

If I was famous I wouldn't even comment. Or I'd just be like "Racism sucks, the end". Gibson can fight his own damn battles.

 

[FiggyCal]

People get all worked up about "Political Correctness", which I completely sympathize with because it is a huge festering, divisive, unhelpful load of horseshit.. even if it may (or may not) be well intentioned.

That said, often times people who really get annoyed by it over correct, which is what seems to have happened here.

No, Louis CK explains the origin here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CJkiwXcvaA

And I'll be goddamned if that's not one of the funniest jokes I have ever heard. The Opie and Anthony show, from which that clip is pulled from, is one of the best reasons why I can sort of agree with Gary Oldman and get aboard the anti political correct train. Political correctness is a bitch and its ruining a lot of very funny comedy. But then a lot of anti-political correct people also say really horrific things, like he did. "Who hasn't said fag or spick at one point or another"... that kind of thinking is also harmful, just in a different but more significant way.

 

[Figboy79]

Gibson is an uber douche canoe, but Get The Gringo was really damn entertaining. Doesn't excuse any of the stupidity that has come from his mouth. I actively avoided watching anything with Gibson in it for years, but watxhed GtG out of curiousity.

As for Gary Oldman? I guess this would be the part where I post that stop.gif with the adorable little girl. Come on, Gary. Just...no.

 

[cubicle47b]

If I was famous I wouldn't even comment. Or I'd just be like "Racism sucks, the end". Gibson can fight his own damn battles.

I haven't read the full article, but he seems to have brought it up himself. You can be friends with and even defend someone like Mel Gibson without defending his actions.