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General Thoughts on Starcraft II (& it's expansions)?
- Thread starter Blues1990
- Start date
Terrific games.
Single player campaign design is best in genre. Never mind RTS is a very small genre that isn't known for single player gaming. Each campaign has a unique meta-game that adds a strategic element to player progression. Tons of one-off units and mechanics keep missions varied. A poster above noted that there are very few Brood War style missions, which for some is a disappointment. Personally, I'll take lots of high concept mission design and less maps where I start with a little base and the enemy has 4 big bases and the mission is destroy everything. AI skirmish mode exists for a reason.
SC2 multiplayer was a lot of fun for a long time. I still hanker to get back into it, but it's daunting. There are many reasons RTS lost popularity, and it being fucking HARD has to be a big one. Even at bronze and silver ranks there are sharks in the water. Playing the custom games isn't really my thing. Either I'm getting better at ladder, or I'm not interested, and getting better at ladder requires dedication. My low key gaming dream is to get to platinum rank in SC2 online. Maybe one day.
Story is utter nonsense that often veers into straight up offensive stupidity. There are some pretty funny characters, though. Each campaign has at least one solid supporting character that livens things up whenever they are on screen. The narrative is just fun enough to keep me entertained between missions. It's the least a story can do.
Starcraft 2 is a complete package with compelling single an mulit player experiences. I think the whole deal can be bought for less than $60 which is an absolute bargain. Recommended.
Single player campaign design is best in genre. Never mind RTS is a very small genre that isn't known for single player gaming. Each campaign has a unique meta-game that adds a strategic element to player progression. Tons of one-off units and mechanics keep missions varied. A poster above noted that there are very few Brood War style missions, which for some is a disappointment. Personally, I'll take lots of high concept mission design and less maps where I start with a little base and the enemy has 4 big bases and the mission is destroy everything. AI skirmish mode exists for a reason.
SC2 multiplayer was a lot of fun for a long time. I still hanker to get back into it, but it's daunting. There are many reasons RTS lost popularity, and it being fucking HARD has to be a big one. Even at bronze and silver ranks there are sharks in the water. Playing the custom games isn't really my thing. Either I'm getting better at ladder, or I'm not interested, and getting better at ladder requires dedication. My low key gaming dream is to get to platinum rank in SC2 online. Maybe one day.
Story is utter nonsense that often veers into straight up offensive stupidity. There are some pretty funny characters, though. Each campaign has at least one solid supporting character that livens things up whenever they are on screen. The narrative is just fun enough to keep me entertained between missions. It's the least a story can do.
Starcraft 2 is a complete package with compelling single an mulit player experiences. I think the whole deal can be bought for less than $60 which is an absolute bargain. Recommended.
GregLombardi
Member
I still consider Sc2 much like I do Dota2- the company missed the forest for the trees in their quest for profit. They forgot either eventually or at first that the purpose of the game was to have fun. You can see that in Diablo (edit: 3) too obviously. That wws Blizzard then thiugh. Overwatch and Hearthstone showed a nice improvement.
RumbleHumble
Banned
I was dealing with an awful breakup right when Starcraft II was released.
I picked it up still depressed, sunk hundreds of hours into single player and multi player and made friendships with it that remain active today. Additionally my dating-game was back and better than ever.
Thanks Starcraft II!
I picked it up still depressed, sunk hundreds of hours into single player and multi player and made friendships with it that remain active today. Additionally my dating-game was back and better than ever.
Thanks Starcraft II!
AuthenticM
Member
Who wrote the story for the original Starcraft? Considering just how different in tone and mood Starcraft 2 is, I'm going to make a guest that maybe it was written by a completely different person or team.
The only good story-bit in the entire SC2 trilogy is Alarak from Legacy of the Void. Unashamed villain and how! Such a fun character with neat design (if cliche but that isn't automatically bad). Indeed, the Tal'darim are a good idea, as it averts the common scifi trope that humans are the only factional species.
But i'm serious about that "the only good story-bit". SC2's story is impressively bad, and characters are generally speaking thin caricatures only.
Gameplay-wise, there are a lot of varied missions, and the various upgrade-options offer some alternatives. Unfortunately, the said upgrade system is also wasted in a way, because there are a lot of missions where you can't use use certain units and upgrades due to them being locked with story-progression. Overall very good and fun RTS to play. (But Warcraft III is overall better package thanks to good story and characters along with good gameplay.)
Chris Metzen was mostly responsible for storylines and lore in SC1 and BW. Not the sole writer, but overall stuff is his heavily. SC2 has had multiple writers, i think, including Metzen. But people's style does change over the years.
But i'm serious about that "the only good story-bit". SC2's story is impressively bad, and characters are generally speaking thin caricatures only.
Gameplay-wise, there are a lot of varied missions, and the various upgrade-options offer some alternatives. Unfortunately, the said upgrade system is also wasted in a way, because there are a lot of missions where you can't use use certain units and upgrades due to them being locked with story-progression. Overall very good and fun RTS to play. (But Warcraft III is overall better package thanks to good story and characters along with good gameplay.)
Chris Metzen was mostly responsible for storylines and lore in SC1 and BW. Not the sole writer, but overall stuff is his heavily. SC2 has had multiple writers, i think, including Metzen. But people's style does change over the years.
CecilRousso
Member
I remember playing the first one, Wings of Liberty, until my thoughts about the story was "this shit wouldn't fly in a Van Dame movie". But I have recently watched through the cutscenes on youtube, and was somewhat entertained by them.
Don't have any real interest in singleplayer RTS nowadays, so I feel no urge to actually play them.
Don't have any real interest in singleplayer RTS nowadays, so I feel no urge to actually play them.
AdventureRacing
Member
I'm really torn on SC2. I played it for 100s of hours and watched it for many more and I consider it one of my all time favourite games. At the same time I consider it incredibly disappointing.
The SP was the main source of my disappointment. I love the original campaigns, not just the gameplay but the story, characters and atmosphere. I waited for over a decade to see that story continued and SC2 took a huge dump on the original story. It's hard to put into words just how disappointing the story was in SC2.
At the same time the gameplay was well done in he campaigns and despite the awful story I still really enjoyed the campaigns.
The MP yet again is a mixed bag. I loved playing the MP and custom games but there have been general problems with balance and various race specific issues that either haven't been resolved or have been resolved the wrong way. Some of the units they added to SC2 were boring and had a poor effect on the game overall (units like the colossus being the big offenders). I still loved watching the game and still do but they didn't make the changes necessary to make the game more enjoyable to watch and play for the more board audience.
They also fucked up the custom games and lobbies big time. They've finally made improvements but even now it's far from perfect and the changes came years to late. I'm also of the opinion that archon mode should have been there from the start and would have been immensely popular if it was.
SC2 is a tale of missed oppurtunities. It could have been something great and in many ways it came very close. That's why despite loving the game so much and having spend so much time with it I find it one of the most disappointing games ever released. It sucks because I'm always left wondering what if.
The SP was the main source of my disappointment. I love the original campaigns, not just the gameplay but the story, characters and atmosphere. I waited for over a decade to see that story continued and SC2 took a huge dump on the original story. It's hard to put into words just how disappointing the story was in SC2.
At the same time the gameplay was well done in he campaigns and despite the awful story I still really enjoyed the campaigns.
The MP yet again is a mixed bag. I loved playing the MP and custom games but there have been general problems with balance and various race specific issues that either haven't been resolved or have been resolved the wrong way. Some of the units they added to SC2 were boring and had a poor effect on the game overall (units like the colossus being the big offenders). I still loved watching the game and still do but they didn't make the changes necessary to make the game more enjoyable to watch and play for the more board audience.
They also fucked up the custom games and lobbies big time. They've finally made improvements but even now it's far from perfect and the changes came years to late. I'm also of the opinion that archon mode should have been there from the start and would have been immensely popular if it was.
SC2 is a tale of missed oppurtunities. It could have been something great and in many ways it came very close. That's why despite loving the game so much and having spend so much time with it I find it one of the most disappointing games ever released. It sucks because I'm always left wondering what if.
James Phinney and Chris Metzen were the story and script lead in the original Starcraft.
Then in Starcraft 2... Metzen was Story Director .. while the lead writers were Andrew Chambers & Brian Kindregan.
I don't have as much fun with any other RTS games nowadays after playing SC2. The unit control is so crisp that every other game in the genre just feels bad to play.
Top notch campaign gameplay (crappy story though), a nice and casual co-op when I want to chill and an intense 1v1 experience. It's pretty much the best RTS package you can get. The game's popularity got seriously hampered with mistep after mistep in its earlier days, if it was released in its current state 7 years ago I believe it'd still be plenty popular. A lot of it feels like blizzard was busy focusing on other games because SC2 wasn't as big a money maker as they hoped.
Top notch campaign gameplay (crappy story though), a nice and casual co-op when I want to chill and an intense 1v1 experience. It's pretty much the best RTS package you can get. The game's popularity got seriously hampered with mistep after mistep in its earlier days, if it was released in its current state 7 years ago I believe it'd still be plenty popular. A lot of it feels like blizzard was busy focusing on other games because SC2 wasn't as big a money maker as they hoped.
llien
Member
As someone who played WoW from beta into WotLK (half of that time as RL), I beg to differ.
Older WoW was more difficult, but in a different way. Getting 40 players online, for instance, getting access to Onyxia's lair (oh dear and that stupid thing about "more dots"), to BWL (ok, this one was a cool dungeon).
I did enjoy vanilla, I admit. ZulGurub and BWL in particular. Even boring MC was fun (Majordomo fight). There was an epic feeling going into dungeons with 40 players.
But in terms of mechanics? Some 5 man in WotLK were more challenging that most of what we had in vanilla.
Laurel_McFang
Member
Have the whole trilogoy started the campaign was shocked at how bad the story is, stuck on a mission where you have to figure out the correct deployments and build orders vs some zerg and protoss stuff. Multiplayer is nice. The tutorials are also quite good with challenge missions that drive home the unit balance. Warcraft 3 had great story SC II has one of the worst.
ChoppedandScrewed
Member
Way to make me feel old.
I'll say this: As someone who played SC:BW religiously every single day, I'm happy with SC2. I couldn't immerse myself in it the way I had with SC:BW as a preteen, but playing through the campaign was fun, crisp, and brought back a lot of good memories.
Be warned though, the story is slap-you-across-the-face stupid.
Easton Dark
Member
Campaign gameplay's top notch, even if I would have enjoyed less missions with timers.
Story is cold, wet, soggy ass.
Co-Op's super fun and I wish they introduced it sooner.
Pretty much my thoughts after wanting to play it for years because Starcraft 1's my favorite game. I'd say Starcraft 2 is in the top 5 even with the story.
Story is cold, wet, soggy ass.
Co-Op's super fun and I wish they introduced it sooner.
Pretty much my thoughts after wanting to play it for years because Starcraft 1's my favorite game. I'd say Starcraft 2 is in the top 5 even with the story.
Played about half of SC2's first campaign and its world and story felt real empty. Attractive presentation and visuals, but the hook just wasn't there. Never bothered finishing it up or buying the following chapters.
I loved Warcraft and Starcraft 1 too.
I loved Warcraft and Starcraft 1 too.
Starcraft 2's biggest problem is it's actually afraid of anyone of importance being a villain. Everyone must be misunderstood or sympathetic.
Hell, the ending to LotV shows
Hell, the ending to LotV shows
the Zerg just going away to their own planets and leaving everyone alone under the leadership of Zagara, in complete defiance of anything we've ever been shown.
Harlock
Member
Is strange how the multiplayer was the top e-sports for 1/2 years and dropped so fast.
I guess Blizzard was very slow to update and make the multiplayer change. Mobas have a lot of heroes and updates.
And Blizzard failed to take advantage of popular game mods, like monobattles, where each player can produce only one type of unit. This could had helped to bring more people into the game. And not being free was a huge deal.
I guess Blizzard was very slow to update and make the multiplayer change. Mobas have a lot of heroes and updates.
And Blizzard failed to take advantage of popular game mods, like monobattles, where each player can produce only one type of unit. This could had helped to bring more people into the game. And not being free was a huge deal.
Warcraft got a similar treatment. The only true villain is a cosmic doofus with a G.I. Joe level plot to take over and/or destroy the universe. Every body else is at worst a misunderstood outcast thrust into an unfortunate position by the cruel machinations of destiny. Never mind if they are responsible for genocides, the cold blooded murder of beloved allies, or any other number of atrocities. Bath them in some redemptive light, give them a hero moment, then hand wave off any deserved repercussions for bad behavior.
Kerrigan is the star so we focus on the mangling of her story, but the real victim is the Overmind. He is a BAD DUDE in Brood War, and by the end of SC2 he is just some do-gooder who was only trying to protect all of existence (never mind he turned a significant chunk of it into slimy bug monsters! No really, don't think about that! Or the entire UED and the Terran civilization on the other side of the galaxy. Neither is important anymore.)
Kerrigan is the star so we focus on the mangling of her story, but the real victim is the Overmind. He is a BAD DUDE in Brood War, and by the end of SC2 he is just some do-gooder who was only trying to protect all of existence (never mind he turned a significant chunk of it into slimy bug monsters! No really, don't think about that! Or the entire UED and the Terran civilization on the other side of the galaxy. Neither is important anymore.)
Enjoyed the campaigns gameplay-wise. They're varied and fun to play, beat them on various difficulties too. Possibly the gold standard for this type of game.
Enough has been said about why the story shit the bed, but I wasn't too heavily invested in the first place.
My personal gripe is that the custom map community (creators and players alike) was smaller. The editor didn't have that complexity/capability sweet spot that Warcraft 3 managed to hit a few patches after Frozen Throne. Those were truly golden days and spawned entire genres. Something Starcraft 2 never managed, despite some really well-made maps.
Enough has been said about why the story shit the bed, but I wasn't too heavily invested in the first place.
My personal gripe is that the custom map community (creators and players alike) was smaller. The editor didn't have that complexity/capability sweet spot that Warcraft 3 managed to hit a few patches after Frozen Throne. Those were truly golden days and spawned entire genres. Something Starcraft 2 never managed, despite some really well-made maps.
KojiKnight
Member
Gameplay variety in SC2 is amazing and should never be anyone can soon as a negative... Except for people here who literally just want regular bot matches for some ungodly reason.
The story in SC2 is not awful. The story of SC1 wasn't great. They are both pretty "okay" with the difference being SC2 spending more time and presentation on their's and some people not looking how over the top it looks by comparison.
They are definitely worth a play, it's a shame the multiplayer doesn't hold up as well as the originals BUT the co-op commanders is GREAT fun if you know someone to play with.
The story in SC2 is not awful. The story of SC1 wasn't great. They are both pretty "okay" with the difference being SC2 spending more time and presentation on their's and some people not looking how over the top it looks by comparison.
They are definitely worth a play, it's a shame the multiplayer doesn't hold up as well as the originals BUT the co-op commanders is GREAT fun if you know someone to play with.
I thought WoL was a great game. Excellent campaign missions and customization of your forces. I liked the story but it doesn't come close to original SC. Very solid sequel overall.
Hots was good. More of the same great gameplay with a story that was starting to loose me. Solid expansion though.
Lotv's story put me to sleep, too much dialog between missions and the Protoss were just a boring race. Really bad story but the best RTS gameplay around so absolutely worth a purchase.
Nova missions were fun and worth the money for me. I hope to see more dlc in the future.
I play zero multiplayer games so I have no opinion on that aspect of the game.
Edit- my only complaint with the campaign gameplay is the lack of traditional start with nothing, build up a base, and conquer missions. They went a little heavy with the themed or gimic levels.
Hots was good. More of the same great gameplay with a story that was starting to loose me. Solid expansion though.
Lotv's story put me to sleep, too much dialog between missions and the Protoss were just a boring race. Really bad story but the best RTS gameplay around so absolutely worth a purchase.
Nova missions were fun and worth the money for me. I hope to see more dlc in the future.
I play zero multiplayer games so I have no opinion on that aspect of the game.
Edit- my only complaint with the campaign gameplay is the lack of traditional start with nothing, build up a base, and conquer missions. They went a little heavy with the themed or gimic levels.
Tertullian
Member
StarCraft 2 has the best, most varied campaigns in RTS history, and it's not even terribly close.
The story is a disappointment, to be sure (thought it's not quite as bad as hysterical people on the internet claim, nor were StarCraft and Brood War untouchable masterpieces in the storytelling department). It has some good points (Tychus Findlay was a great character), but "we must put aside our differences and defeat the evil space god with the power of friendship!" is just so much less interesting than the brutal realpolitik feeling of StarCraft and especially Brood War.
The co-op is fun. As for the competitive multiplayer, who cares?
The story is a disappointment, to be sure (thought it's not quite as bad as hysterical people on the internet claim, nor were StarCraft and Brood War untouchable masterpieces in the storytelling department). It has some good points (Tychus Findlay was a great character), but "we must put aside our differences and defeat the evil space god with the power of friendship!" is just so much less interesting than the brutal realpolitik feeling of StarCraft and especially Brood War.
The co-op is fun. As for the competitive multiplayer, who cares?
LastGamer84
Member
I like all the campaigns. They're cheesy b movie plots with some annoying retcons (almost all of which are a detriment to the Protoss), but serviceable.
What's annoying is that they had to shoehorn in an epilogue to lotv. Blizzard has this really dumb habit of shoving in space magic and a last minute ascension/redemption for characters that don't need it. Honestly Kerrigan should have been killed off by the end with no reversal of her transformation.
The added crap about the Xel'Naga didn't help either. The original lore about them was enough. We don't need to elaborate. It's the same overwriting that ruined WoW and Diablo (Draenai and Nephalim respectively).
What's annoying is that they had to shoehorn in an epilogue to lotv. Blizzard has this really dumb habit of shoving in space magic and a last minute ascension/redemption for characters that don't need it. Honestly Kerrigan should have been killed off by the end with no reversal of her transformation.
The added crap about the Xel'Naga didn't help either. The original lore about them was enough. We don't need to elaborate. It's the same overwriting that ruined WoW and Diablo (Draenai and Nephalim respectively).
I feel all of Blizzards games had bad stories. I can't remember the SC story and I musr have played it and Brood Wars over 10 times each.
Black Mantis
Member
Yeah, I enjoyed WoL overall, but as someone who likes to play RTS games slowly, those type of missions really pissed me off. I haven't tried the other expansions because of this, despite owning them for a couple years.
The campaigns are pretty great, but they could've used more free-form missions. The story was bad in WoL and it just got worse from there. At least the expansions gave us Abathur and Alarak, but they couldn't redeem the stories alone.
Too bad Blizz ballsed up the multiplayer and pro scene with their stubbornness.
Too bad Blizz ballsed up the multiplayer and pro scene with their stubbornness.
RoseBell69
Member
From a gameplay perspective, it is rich and renewing every time I play SCII series.
From a story perspective, it is utterly the most betrayal I've ever seen in writing. The ending of LotV boils my blood and enrages me. I will never forgive Blizzard for what they did with my beloved
. If in SCIII, I don't see them bring back
, I won't buy the game.
From a story perspective, it is utterly the most betrayal I've ever seen in writing. The ending of LotV boils my blood and enrages me. I will never forgive Blizzard for what they did with my beloved
Zeratul
Zeratul
Single player wise, the three campaigns from a gameplay perspective are awesome. Varied objectives, interesting map design and allowing the player to decide which exclusive units to use, upgrades, etc. Quite a delight to play to be honest.
Story wise, it is awful. It doesn't even come close to Brood War; in fact, it undones many things that happens in the first Starcraft. Worse, it tries to do the same crap Blizzard has done since WC3: we must join forces for defeat an ancient evil. Amon is one pathetic excuse of a villain. Same with hybrids.
Multiplayer wise, in WoL and HotS, it basically involved: grab one or two expansions ASAP, amass army and have those death balls fight. Especially if you are a Protoss. What I don't like of SC2 is that reliance of units in an army. Back then, it was much more efficient to use the bio ball as a Terran than mechs or ships. Or the annoying Ling/Muta ball. And Protoss only used Colossis complemented with Stalkers and Immortals because other units weren't completely viable. (with the exception of High Templars).
Right now, I don't know the meta of the game. But I understand that in the competitive scene, the MOBAs completely destroyed SC2.
Co-Op missions were interesting with the commanders. But since it is a small pool of maps, it gets boring after a while.
And custom maps, which were quite important in Brood War and Warcraft 3, didn't grow in SC2.
Story wise, it is awful. It doesn't even come close to Brood War; in fact, it undones many things that happens in the first Starcraft. Worse, it tries to do the same crap Blizzard has done since WC3: we must join forces for defeat an ancient evil. Amon is one pathetic excuse of a villain. Same with hybrids.
Multiplayer wise, in WoL and HotS, it basically involved: grab one or two expansions ASAP, amass army and have those death balls fight. Especially if you are a Protoss. What I don't like of SC2 is that reliance of units in an army. Back then, it was much more efficient to use the bio ball as a Terran than mechs or ships. Or the annoying Ling/Muta ball. And Protoss only used Colossis complemented with Stalkers and Immortals because other units weren't completely viable. (with the exception of High Templars).
Right now, I don't know the meta of the game. But I understand that in the competitive scene, the MOBAs completely destroyed SC2.
Co-Op missions were interesting with the commanders. But since it is a small pool of maps, it gets boring after a while.
And custom maps, which were quite important in Brood War and Warcraft 3, didn't grow in SC2.
grandwizard
Member
The best RTS campaigns ever made and it isn't even close. The variety in mission design and interesting unit choices are just unmatched by any other game. I really don't get people who don't like that they made missions where you actually have to act instead of turtle and build a gigantic 200 food army then stomp the enemy. You can do that in basically every other RTS campaign and it was a great decision to make SC2 so that people are forced to actually think and strategize instead of doing the same thing over and over. And hell if you want to do that you can always just use skirmish.
I've played through them multiple times on different difficulty levels and they still hold up years later. WoL is the best followed close behind by HotS. I wouldn't put LotV on the same level of the other two but it's still good.
I really hope Blizz has another RTS in the pipe because SC2 is just so good and nothing else really scratches that itch in mission design and just budget and production values.
I've played through them multiple times on different difficulty levels and they still hold up years later. WoL is the best followed close behind by HotS. I wouldn't put LotV on the same level of the other two but it's still good.
I really hope Blizz has another RTS in the pipe because SC2 is just so good and nothing else really scratches that itch in mission design and just budget and production values.