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[Fantastapotamus]

http://www.handelsblatt.com/politik...inge-australien-der-folterstaat/10849852.html

Google translated english version:
https://translate.google.at/transla...inge-australien-der-folterstaat/10849852.html

article is in German obviously, but I horribly translated some of the more important stuff

"No western country handles refugees tougher than Australia: Mutilations and suicides are common in the camps. Even children have to live behind barb wire. And the nation cheers." "The conservative government uses a brutal, inhuman policy to discourage refugees despite clear evidence that it leads to mental illness, mutilation and suicide."

Peter Young, a former psychiatrist in one of those camps: "If we define torture as a deliberate violation of people to get a certain result, Australias system matches that definition"

38 children have been imprisoned for over a year now. One lawyer says they were begging her for some ballpens. "The children didn't have any entertainment opportunities, they appeared apathetic and obviously suffered from psychological damages." Former guards claim a system of "depersonalization" prevails in the camps.
As a result a three year old girl suffered an epileptic seizure and a boy was force to read from lips after his hearing aid had been removed. Journalists aren't allowed in the camps.

Last August a few refugees commited suicide to "at least save their children" to which Australian PM Tony Abbott responded "'I don't believe any thinking Australian would want us to capitulate to moral blackmail"

A survey shows that 60% of the australian people want an even stricter system despite 90% of the arrivals end up being recognized as "real" refugees, meaning they have a legitimate claim for refuge. On average Australia accepts only 13.759 refugees each year while simultaneously accepting 190.000 immigrants, mostly specialists or wealthy people.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not from Australia so I can't say if this is exaggerated or not but it sounds fucking awful, especially for a country that has a pretty "liberal" image. I'd be interested to hear from some australian GAF members how they feel about the article/the situation in Australia.
As you can tell, the article is rather lenghty so those short snippets don't do it justice. If you can, I recommend reading it yourself.

Oh, and don't worry I won't quit my dayjob to become a translator. I know my english skills are rather embarrassing but I hope that even my messy translation gets the point across.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

The way they treat refugees is indeed horrible

 

[Moosichu]

This is a scandal waiting to really blow up over there.

 

[Irminsul]

That article is from 2014, by the way. Not that a whole lot has changed, at least as far as I know.

But doesn't Nauru want to close those camps?

 

[Deleted member 245925]

Coincidentally, I read an article (in German) this morning where the Austrian foreign minister calls the "Australian model" of handling refugees (interning them on islands off the coast) a role model for Europe.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

A no win situation. If you encourage the illegal movement of people they end up killing themselves en masse taking risks. (Such as paying black marketeers to float them for miles across rough seas in dinghies.)

If you discourage it using hard line techniques those on the hardline suffer too.

Germans criticising anyone on the handling of refugees is head slappingly excruciatingly hypocritical imo.

 

[Xando]

Germans criticising anyone on the handling of refugees is head slappingly excruciatingly hypocritical imo.

Article is from 2014.
Not sure why it got posted today.

 

[PdotMichael]

A no win situation. If you encourage the illegal movement of people they end up killing themselves en masse taking risks. (Such as paying black marketeers to float them for miles across rough seas in dinghies.)

If you discourage it using hard line techniques those on the hardline suffer too.

Germans criticising anyone on the handling of refugees is head slappingly excruciatingly hypocritical imo.

Seeking for asylum isn't illegal.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

That article is from 2014, by the way.

What? How did that end up on my twitter feed than? Sorry for that, I didn't notice.

Article is from 2014.
Not sure why it got posted today.

Because I'm an idiot

 

[Sickboy007]

The fact that journalists aren't allowed in the camp is a disgrace in and of itself.

 

[Ovek]

Seeking for asylum isn't illegal.

The way they get to said country to request asylum is though.

 

[cameron]

That article is from 2014, by the way. Not that a whole lot has changed, at least as far as I know.

But doesn't Nauru want to close those camps?

I believe it's only Manus Island. PNG Supreme Court ruled refugee detention as unconstitutional. The processing centre (camp) is set to close.

The Guardian:
-"Papua New Guinea court rules detention of asylum seekers on Manus Island illegal"
-"Manus Island detention centre to close, Papua New Guinea prime minister says"
-"Papua New Guinea 'must tell UN its plan' for closing Manus detention centre"

 

[Renpatsu]

I'm not from Australia so I can't say if this is exaggerated or not but it sounds fucking awful, especially for a country that has a pretty "liberal" image.

Australia is actually far more conservative than you might imagine.
Also one of the reasons why asylum seekers are treated extremely poorly without much push back is because the current government is taking advantage of the national ignorance and intolerance when it comes to matters that don't actively involve them.

 

[DrSlek]

A survey shows that 60% of the australian people want an even stricter system despite 90% of the arrivals end up being recognized as "real" refugees

A survey recently said that 70% of Australiana think more should be done to help refugees.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Our immigration policies are still total shit so it's not like it's isn't still relevant.

 

[Maz]

Holy, why accept anyone if your going to treat them that way?

 

[Jintor]

This is a scandal waiting to really blow up over there.

it already blew up. nobody cares. or at least nobody cares enough. the only party that gives a shit is the greens.

it's the fucking worst part of australian politics

The way they get to said country to request asylum is though.

no, it's protected under article 31 of the refugee convention, so long as australia is a signatory. regardless of arrival method, regardless of possession of documents, right to enter a country for the purposes of seeking asylum is protected.

the migration act 1958 terms arrivals without a valid visa to be 'unlawful non-citizens', but there is no actual criminal offense associated with arriving without a valid visa, so no crime is committed.

 

[thegoosen]

Still interesting even it is 2 years old.

Last August a few refugees commited suicide to "at least save their children" to which Australian PM Tony Abbott responded "'I don't believe any thinking Australian would want us to capitulate to moral blackmail"

What the fuck.

Germans criticising anyone on the handling of refugees is head slappingly excruciatingly hypocritical imo.

Criticising a government, that lets people in need of help systemically fall into despair and dying, is hypocritical?

 

[KDR_11k]

Doesn't Australia also make it illegal to report about problems with this system?

The way they get to said country to request asylum is though.

Since they cannot claim asylum before crossing the border illegally that's not really relevant.

 

[PdotMichael]

The way they get to said country to request asylum is though.

Not based on the 1951 Refugee Convention.

 

[esquire]

I'm not from Australia so I can't say if this is exaggerated or not but it sounds fucking awful, especially for a country that has a pretty "liberal" image.

What are you basing your "liberal" image of Australia on? Because their very recent history paints a very different image to me, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy

 

[DrSlek]

Doesn't Australia also make it illegal to report about problems with this system?



Since they cannot claim asylum before crossing the border illegally that's not really relevant.

If I recall correctly, whistleblowers face gaol time if they report anything about the camps to the media. A bunch of doctors called the government's bluff last year and went to the media. As far as I'm aware, none of them were prosecuted.

 

[BunnyBear]

This is a scandal waiting to really blow up over there.

A lot of people have been trying to blow it up here for a long time. So far, the public doesn't care because the fear campaign is more effective.

They'll steal our jobs, we'll have to pay for them, we're too crowded already, they don't assimilate, etc.

 

[Jintor]

If I recall correctly, whistleblowers face gaol time if they report anything about the camps to the media. A bunch of doctors called the government's bluff last year and went to the media. As far as I'm aware, none of them were prosecuted.

A lot of people have been trying to blow it up here for a long time. So far, the public doesn't care because the fear campaign is more effective.

yeah, i mean, obviously it's fucking shit and totalitarian that the government is gagging whistleblowers (in basically every area actually but here particularly), but the bigger problem is definitely that by and large the australian public don't care or at least don't express that they care

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

Seeking for asylum isn't illegal.

Entering a country through any other means than an official port is illegal.

 

[thegoosen]

Entering a country through any other means than an official port is illegal.

A survey shows that 60% of the australian people want an even stricter system despite 90% of the arrivals end up being recognized as "real" refugees, meaning they have a legitimate claim for refuge.

.

 

[Jintor]

The entry is illegal (or at least non-lawful). Seeking asylum is not illegal. Entering for the purposes of seeking asylum also appears to be legal, or at least protected under the Convention. I would think that Federal Law supercedes the Convention though... web searching this is not helpful in that regard...

That said, I want to make the distinction that whatever else it is, it is definitely not criminal.

 

[Mr_Appleby]

Both major political parties put refugees in off-shore detention camps, political and progressive alike. They've both been engaged in propagating a fear of refugees since the Liberal party (the conservatives) successfully played the fear around September 11 and the arrival of Afghani refugees aboard the Tampa into an election winning platform. The labour party, rather than take an opposing stance, effectively followed suit so as not to further harm their chances at election.

Some of the nation cheers. Some of the nation thinks it's utterly abhorrent. As is pretty standard the larger cities are more progressive in this respect than regional areas. We are a nation built on immigration and where I live would not be the same without refugees fleeing WW2 and bringing predominantly Greek and Italian culture. And coffee! Sadly, many of those same refugees and their children are against accepting these ones. Not that fourth or later generation White Australians are any better, in many cases worse. I can't speak for the indigenous community.

I'd like to read a full translation at some point. It's an extremely divisive issue here and also a great big pile of bullshit.

 

[Greddleok]

Peter Young, a former psychiatrist in one of those camps: "If we define torture as a deliberate violation of people to get a certain result, Australias system matches that definition"

If we define a poisonous word to mean something that matches my agenda, it then matches my agenda.

Fuck I hate it when people do this. Put me right off reading the article.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

It's a black stain upon the national character and a complete travesty. As an Australian, I cannot defend it and it embarrasses me when it's brought up.

It's something that started nearly 15 years ago with the Tampa Affair. Then Prime Minister John Howard was in trouble politically, so he used used the incident to whip up resentment and fear against boat-bound refugees in order to distract from domestic issues.

It worked. John Howard was reelected.

Successive governments ever since have latched onto this and striven to outdo each other on how "tough" they can be on "boat people". Both of the major parties are complicit in ramping up both the rhetoric and the cruelty as they have triangulated their way into this situation. At this point, they can go no further without starting to actively induce physical pain on these people.

The latest development is that the situation has been militarised. Basically, the government has gotten the navy involved in intercepting and turning back boats. This does two things:

1) It places their actions above criticism since the armed forces in this country are highly respected. Criticism of the policy becomes criticism of our brave sailors. Personally, involving the navy at all was a venal and cynical ploy.

2) It allows the government to keep everything that happens at sea out of the media. Because it is now a military operation, commenting on any arrival, incident or scandal is legally a matter of national security and, naturally, a felony crime.

They know that what they're doing is wrong, that the Australian people would not stand for it if they could see what was being done in their name. Were it otherwise, there wouldn't be such a tremendous effort to keep it hidden. As long as the people being mistreated have no names or no faces, as long as their stories remain unknown, being cruel to them is cruelty in the abstract - an easy trade-off for perceived security. If information about them leaks out, it becomes cruelty to specific people, something altogether different.

When all of this blows up in our faces, and it will, there are going to be a lot of politicians in the Labour, Liberal and National parties who will have found themselves with a terrible legacy to live with.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Of course it's a much better policy to have people drown on your doorstep and look the other way, Germany.

How are the refugees treated in Turkey again where you sent yours back now? Or by the smugglers that make a ton of money because of your policies and are literally sinking ships, throwing people overboard and shooting people?

 

[Jintor]

If we define a poisonous word to mean something that matches my agenda, it then matches my agenda.

Fuck I hate it when people do this. Put me right off reading the article.

dude is just setting the terms of what 'torture' means, especially in this context where australian authorities would argue it's merely 'mandatory processing' or whatever

 

[CadetMahoney]

Australia used to do that thing, "Offshore processing" in Nauru and Papua New Guinea (PNG).

The government pays outsourced contractors to operate and provide security at temporary detention camps for asylum seekers on the Pacific islands.

Any sylum seekers judged to be genuine refugees would be resettled in Papua New Guinea, not Australia. I can't remember the reason they stopped that though.

 

[Irminsul]

Of course it's a much better policy to have people drown on your doorstep and look the other way, Germany.

How are the refugees treated in Turkey again where you sent yours back now? Or by the smugglers that make a ton of money because of your policies and are literally sinking ships, throwing people overboard and shooting people?

What is it with this weird idea that one journalist and German refugee policy are somehow one and the same? Maybe the journalist (or the paper he's writing for) hates ertain aspects of German refugee policy as well? He's not responsible for that, you know. Even though he's stained by the mark of being German.

 

[thegoosen]

Of course it's a much better policy to have people drown on your doorstep and look the other way, Germany.

How are the refugees treated in Turkey again where you sent yours back now? Or by the smugglers that make a ton of money because of your policies and are literally sinking ships, throwing people overboard and shooting people?

In what way does this excuse Australia's poor asylum policy?

 

[tri_willy]

It's a black stain upon the national character and a complete travesty. As an Australian, I cannot defend it and it embarrasses me when it's brought up.

It's something that started nearly 15 years ago with the Tampa Affair. Then Prime Minister John Howard was in trouble politically, so he used used the incident to whip up resentment and fear against boat-bound refugees in order to distract from domestic issues.

It worked. John Howard was reelected.

Successive governments ever since have latched onto this and striven to outdo each other on how "tough" they can be on "boat people". Both of the major parties are complicit in ramping up both the rhetoric and the cruelty as they have triangulated their way into this situation. At this point, they can go no further without starting to actively induce physical pain on these people.

The latest development is that the situation has been militarised. Basically, the government has gotten the navy involved in intercepting and turning back boats. This does two things:

1) It places their actions above criticism since the armed forces in this country are highly respected. Criticism of the policy becomes criticism of our brave sailors. Personally, involving the navy at all was a venal and cynical ploy.

2) It allows the government to keep everything that happens at sea out of the media. Because it is now a military operation, commenting on any arrival, incident or scandal is legally a matter of national security and, naturally, a felony crime.

They know that what they're doing is wrong, that the Australian people would not stand for it if they could see what was being done in their name. Were it otherwise, there wouldn't be such a tremendous effort to keep it hidden. As long as the people being mistreated have no names or no faces, as long as their stories remain unknown, being cruel to them is cruelty in the abstract - an easy trade-off for perceived security. If information about them leaks out, it becomes cruelty to specific people, something altogether different.

When all of this blows up in our faces, and it will, there are going to be a lot of politicians in the Labour, Liberal and National parties who will have found themselves with a terrible legacy to live with.

Well this... all to appease the bigots and the self entitled pricks

 

[Subpar Scrub]

yeah, i mean, obviously it's fucking shit and totalitarian that the government is gagging whistleblowers (in basically every area actually but here particularly), but the bigger problem is definitely that by and large the australian public don't care or at least don't express that they care

There's lots of protests to the camps on local news stations, especially when a mutilation or suicide occurs.

I'm proud of my country and love it very much, but it fucking hurts to say that our incompetent government coupled with an ignorant public, including my own family in some cases, results in painfully slow progress for asylum seekers and is hurting the ones who really really need help.

There's a big mentality of "boatloads of people are drowning trying to get here. We must tell them not to come to save them. They only want to come here to get a free home and free income." amongst the public. Couple this with stories of asylum seekers purposefully throwing away their passports, IDs and identification documents, this causes the public to believe that it's true.

The media uses riots at the detention centres and their damage to properties built on taxpayers money along with images and descriptions of fairly expensive houses, cars and incomes given to the asylum seekers to rile up the public. There's people I know who believe it all (understandably older individuals from rural backgrounds) who hate the idea of the government buying a 300k house, 20k car and paying an asylum family 1k per week, but then not forcing assimilation programs and "letting them hate us, use us and not contribute anything". This is what a lot of our media will show, to the point that some of the stuff I've heard from my own family, relatives and some friends have disgusted me.

As an ender, I will say that many younger people (not all of us, unfortunately) are more understanding of the asylum situation and will protest and wish for swift, positive changes to the asylum programs. Australia has a problem with "casual" racism and the way many minorities are viewed as it is, but I've felt those feelings and attitudes changing in the last 5 years. Slowly, but changing.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Of course it's a much better policy to have people drown on your doorstep and look the other way, Germany.

How are the refugees treated in Turkey again where you sent yours back now? Or by the smugglers that make a ton of money because of your policies and are literally sinking ships, throwing people overboard and shooting people?

Criticising one thing doesn't mean you are praising everything else.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

Of course it's a much better policy to have people drown on your doorstep and look the other way, Germany.

How are the refugees treated in Turkey again where you sent yours back now? Or by the smugglers that make a ton of money because of your policies and are literally sinking ships, throwing people overboard and shooting people?

Lol, who gives a fuck about what Germany is doing when criticism is given? I know that my country can do better. We shouldn't be lax in our refugee intake processing, but we fucking suck at it right now, both in processing time and the quality of life given to those who are in processing centres. It's a disgrace, and the European issues don't make criticism from there invalid.

Well this... all to appease the bigots and the self entitled pricks

Do you mean to refer to the general population with that statement?

 

[PillarEN]

There was a very recent episode of This American Life (check back like 2, 3 episodes on their website) where they focus on the country Nauru and part of it deals with Australia and how they deal with certain refugees.

 

[hirokazu]

There is no exaggeration there and the majority of the constituency supports the measures. Out of sight, out of mind.

Australia used to do that thing, "Offshore processing" in Nauru and Papua New Guinea (PNG).

The government pays outsourced contractors to operate and provide security at temporary detention camps for asylum seekers on the Pacific islands.

Any sylum seekers judged to be genuine refugees would be resettled in Papua New Guinea, not Australia. I can't remember the reason they stopped that though.

What do you mean "used to"? That's what we're still doing as far as I'm aware.

 

[jizzlobber]

I'm from Australia and I don't know what the solution is here, something had to be done because there was a constant flow of boats being intercepted.

But they are just sticking them into these detention centres so they are out of mind, I don't think the government knows what to do with them so these people are still there years later, no closer to being released...they are basically in jail.

I don't have the answer, it's not good though.

 

[30yearsofhurt]

Being from Australia I welcome any just criticism we get on this. Unfortunately no politicians outside of Australia seem to care.

 

[SmartBase]

How many years ago was Tampa, 9/11 and Howard's khaki election? Not much has changed so I'd say that's a long enough time to say Australians don't really care about asylum seekers.

 

[hirokazu]

The way they get to said country to request asylum is though.

No it's not. See, this is exactly the mentality of the majority of people here. Just listening to what the government says about the refugees coming illegally and all sorts of nonsense.

 

[Bold One]

Never underestimate The Power of Nightmares, you only have to look at the UK, US, at the way politicians are using fear.

As things like war and climate change continue to destabilize people, many more refugees will continue to ebb and flow across the earth, but they will find that the lands they plan to seek refuge are already occupied by people unsympathetic to their plight.

 

[SilentRob]

I don't have the answer, it's not good though.

The answer is to allow them to live like people and everyone else in Australia since 90% of them are recognzied by law as asylum seekers for legit reasons. Australia is a rich country that could afford to support many, many more people than they already do.

The myth that there are "too many" refugees for western countries to handle is crazy - it all fails because nationalists and many conservatives don't want to share their riches and rather use xenophobia as a voting tool. Right now there are 1.49 refugees for every 1000 Australians. That's about 0.1% of hteir population. Acting like that's "too many" and those 0.1% of their population would somehow undermine their culture is completely and utterly crazy.

Also, it's good you opened this thread despite this being a story from 2014. It's all the more important to talk about it since it seems like the situation still hasn't changed.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

What are you basing your "liberal" image of Australia on?

Nothing, just the image I had in my head. Weird.

 

[hirokazu]

Nothing, just the image I had in my head. Weird.

We just pretend to be. The political reality is pretty different.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

I'm from Australia and I don't know what the solution is here, something had to be done because there was a constant flow of boats being intercepted.

But they are just sticking them into these detention centres so they are out of mind, I don't think the government knows what to do with them so these people are still there years later, no closer to being released...they are basically in jail.

I don't have the answer, it's not good though.

This is the problem. This coupled with a low quality of life is what leads to riots, which leads to more vitriol among the public, who then look to the government for yet another "we'll crack down on them!" Statement. It's a horrible cycle, and the initial fix of "hold and process them outside of Australia so that the public doesn't have to think about it" hasn't been followed up with anything except for a small population of seekers being allowed entry every year.