Isn't it on Series S too? How can it be squeezing everything out of the Series X if so?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen
- Thread starter ResetEraVetVIP
- Start date
Isn't it on Series S too? How can it be squeezing everything out of the Series X if so?
GymWolf
Member
I'm probably not the right guy to answer such a technical question dude
Negotiator101
Member
Have you seen it Hunnybun?
In person?
Audiophile
Member
I reckon Death Stranding 2 is running RTGI and I think Horizon 3 will pretty much require it to push things further. I think their excellent blended bake system has served them well but its time is over; no matter how hard they push everything else that lighting system will undermine the game in poorly lit areas, missed areas or areas with problematic lighting scenarios. I love Forbidden West's look and still find it visually cohesive in most cases, but when you catch a bad spot the image completely flattens and falls apart.
I'm gonna guess Horizon 3 will be a cross-gen PS5/6 title and I expect it'll have RTGI across the board as standard, with increasingly higher quality implementations on PS5 Pro and PS6, plus additional RT effects tacked on. Avoiding having to do bakes entirely would streamline dev quite a bit while also providing the payer with a more coherent visual experience.
I think if you're releasing a current-gen only, AAA open world title with a fully dynamic time of day from 2025 onwards, RTGI will be needed otherwise all the other stuff going on and getting upgrades will be hamstrung by it. It's a rising tide that lifts all ships, every element of the frame gets better, not just the effect in and of itself. I believe it's the biggest bottleneck right now in making dynamically lit games look better, you can throw all the geometry, fx, post-processing etc. at the problem but if you light it poorly it destroys the entire illusion.
I'm gonna guess Horizon 3 will be a cross-gen PS5/6 title and I expect it'll have RTGI across the board as standard, with increasingly higher quality implementations on PS5 Pro and PS6, plus additional RT effects tacked on. Avoiding having to do bakes entirely would streamline dev quite a bit while also providing the payer with a more coherent visual experience.
I think if you're releasing a current-gen only, AAA open world title with a fully dynamic time of day from 2025 onwards, RTGI will be needed otherwise all the other stuff going on and getting upgrades will be hamstrung by it. It's a rising tide that lifts all ships, every element of the frame gets better, not just the effect in and of itself. I believe it's the biggest bottleneck right now in making dynamically lit games look better, you can throw all the geometry, fx, post-processing etc. at the problem but if you light it poorly it destroys the entire illusion.
Last edited:
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
Dead? Hellblade 2 is coming soon…
Mobilemofo
Member
What we actually need is a truly ugly female lead character. One so hideous, her face is pixelated throughout.
Yes, I'm almost certain that's exactly what we need.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Yep. I think games like Alan Wake 2 can look fine with their baked lighting solutions but its a fairly linear game with maybe 1/10th of the HFW's map size. At best. Apparently HFW uses like 12 time of day bakes, but to me it still doesnt look right. It's gorgeous no doubt, but there are a lot of times where it just looks kinda ugly.
That said, I think they need to do more than just RTGI. I think RT Shadows would go a long way towards fixing the shadow flickering issues we see in Dragons Dogma 2. DD2 has a very fast time of day cycle and the RTGI makes a mockery of their screenspace shadows solution. Horizon has some horrendous shadows pop-in when you are flying and the draw distance for them just sucks most of the time. Avatar improves on this a lot. Way higher draw distance, fantastic AO and shadows under trees, but even that game needs higher level of detail in the distance like what they showed in the very first trailer for the game before it was downgraded.
For horizon, I want this fixed. And for it to look more like Avatar. Maybe GG can do in 2028 what Massive tried to do in their original trailer.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Just found an Avatar gif of mine posted by an Avatar FoP dev on his artstation page. they are watching this thread guys.
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
in regards to mo cap...
So we should still be good. animations themselves are mo capped, meaning they will just look fucking godly
Last edited:
A journalist friend told me that it is a Detroit or Heavy Rain style game...
New image of Death Stranding 2.
GymWolf
Member
Yeah i still wanna see more of it before being fully on board like you.
GymWolf
Member
Hacks recognize other hacks, lovely to see.A journalist friend told me that it is a Detroit or Heavy Rain style game...
New image of Death Stranding 2.
Last edited:
The fighting animations are so shitty. Is this game supposed to be some revelation in animations and graphics? I'm seriously unimpressed.
GymWolf
Member
Her facial animations are the definition of uncanny valley, they really fucked up by not choosing someone with some acting experience or maybe their facial mocap\editing is just not top tier.
I'm sorry but ellie in tlou2 just looked more like a real person even with less graphic fidelity during cutscenes.
I'm sorry but ellie in tlou2 just looked more like a real person even with less graphic fidelity during cutscenes.
Polygonal_Sprite
Member
I can tell you that right now several studios do indeed have two versions of games in development. One for Series S/Switch 2 (whatever they call it). And one for Series X, PS5 and PS5 Pro. The Pro is capable of a huge increase in RT features if you're careful to balance it with your chosen resolution.
Games will indeed go from fully baked approximations of RT bounces to full RTGI along with RTAO and/or RT reflections on the Pro. The info I have is the reason I didn't spend £3000 on a new PC and I'm instead waiting on PS5 Pro even if it's £600-£800 as that's cheaper than the price of a 4080 alone at the moment lol.
It's people expecting 30fps targeted games only on PS5 to suddenly go up to 60fps that will be disappointed in the Pro although from what I have heard some developers are targeting the VRR window instead of a '60fps mode' as they can hit 50 but not 60fps using the CPU boost. Developers actually target usually 10fps above their target so it leaves room for drops without droping beneath their target so they aim for 70+fps for a usual 60fps performance modes. This is the reason you see a lot of PS5 games hitting 70-90fps in their 120fps modes.
Hitting a complete locked 60fps is extremely challenging and a lot of the times high end PC players who say they play at 60fps will have drops at least into the mid 50's at certain stress points in games. They just either don't notice it or don't want to concede the point in the online platform wars
GymWolf
Member
Not sure if i get your point.I can tell you that right now several studios do indeed have two versions of games in development. One for Series S/Switch 2 (whatever they call it). And one for Series X, PS5 and PS5 Pro. The Pro is capable of a huge increase in RT features if you're careful to balance it with your chosen resolution.
Games will indeed go from fully baked approximations of RT bounces to full RTGI along with RTAO and/or RT reflections on the Pro. The info I have is the reason I didn't spend £3000 on a new PC and I'm instead waiting on PS5 Pro even if it's £600-£800 as that's cheaper than the price of a 4080 alone at the moment lol.
It's people expecting 30fps targeted games only on PS5 to suddenly go up to 60fps that will be disappointed in the Pro although from what I have heard some developers are targeting the VRR window instead of a '60fps mode' as they can hit 50 but not 60fps using the CPU boost. Developers actually target usually 10fps above their target so it leaves room for drops without droping beneath their target so they aim for 70+fps for a usual 60fps performance modes. This is the reason you see a lot of PS5 games hitting 70-90fps in their 120fps modes.
Hitting a complete locked 60fps is extremely challenging and a lot of the times high end PC players who say they play at 60fps will have drops at least into the mid 50's at certain stress points in games. They just either don't notice it or don't want to concede the point in the online platform wars
Many devs are gonna do different version of the games to accomodate a switch 2 version, sure, but we are talking about sony first parties, and there is no way that horizon 3 is gonna have full rtx suite on pro and raster light on basic ps5, the difference would be too big.
What they are gonna do? Show only videos of the best version that is gonna be played by 10% of players tops?
I still think that you are gonna have the exact situation we had with ps4 pro where the enhancements are gonna framerate, res and maybe rt reflections or shadows that are hardly a game changer.
Btw, you can always achieve 60fps rock solid on non-broken games like dogma2, you just need to lower settings if the game goes into the 50s during the most hectic moments, that's why settings on pc even exist.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
hes the director. just like kojima. these guys demand a level of quality from their underlings that we dont see in other games. if you are going to blame kojima for gameplay then you gotta give him credit for graphics. same goes for druckmann.Yeah i'm sure that facial animations, digital acting etc. was all made by the drunkmaster...
Such a weak gotcha moment you have there buddy
GymWolf
Member
I'm not gonna give credit to kojima for the graphic, decima engine is from guerrilla, and of course dd2 looks better than hfw, it's 3 years never and fully nextgen, it should look even better than it does if you consider that, and let's be real, the game doesn't have nearly the same amount of stuff on screen compared to horizon, nor the same amount of characters to render, nor the combat or all the rpg system in places, it was a way easier game to make than horizon, the open world was barren as fuck and you had a cast of like 10 charas (scanned from real actors).
And sorry, but i'm still not convinced that facial expression adn digital acting are something that i should attribute to drunkman, at least not fully, he can demand perfection, but he is not the one physically doing the work that require that particualr skill, he is a story teller and game director, not an animator nor the actor under the mocap suit.
But i'm gonna give you this, drunkman is the less hack if we only consider the last games of both dudes, tlou2 even with its shitty plot, charas and pace was still my 2019 goty, ds was barely a 6\10 on a good day for me.
Last edited:
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
There are plenty of ugly UE4 and UE5 games. It's about the talent and how they use that engine.
Kojima, Druckmann, Cory, Todd Howard dont sit around doing much of anything. Druckman and kojima might write the story at best. But they are directors like Nolan and they are the ones who are set the standards and the quality bar. You said it yourself, hellblade 2 is using better technology but TLOU2 has better animations. Why? because ND still uses facial animations hand key'ed in by animators. every single facial expression has to be ok'd by Druckmann.
Anyway, doesnt really matter. I was just pointing out the flawed logic of calling these guys hacks when they are producing some really high quality work. Their games not only win awards, but also feature some of the best tech in the business. You might have an issue with their storytelling or gameplay mechanics, but there is no doubt that they both make games that set the bar when they come out.
GymWolf
Member
Pretty sure that if go into your post history, it's gonna be full of successful developers that you called hacks or worse, it's not that serious dude, we all hate some personalities in gaming for the most various reasons
I was a big fan of kojima, hell mgs1 is my favourite game of all time (although it has aged like milk gameplay wise), the combo of mgs4-partially mgs5-ds was too much for me to handle.
Never been a fan of drunkdude, uncharted 4 bored me to death except for the gunfights, and i'm absolutely sure that everything i like in tlou2 wasn't personally coded by this dude.
Last edited:
March Climber
Member
Regardless of personal feelings, we need auteurs in the gaming industry. The use of actually good cinematography, presentation, and direction is something that I feel is pivotal when it comes to elevating games heavily involved with storytelling. I would just hope that these guys, who many consider legends, are influencing other devs.Pretty sure that if go into your post history, it's gonna be full of successful developers that you called hacks or worse, it's not that serious dude, we all hate some personalities in gaming for the most various reasons
I was a big fan of kojima, hell mgs1 is my favourite game of all time (although it has aged like milk gameplay wise), the combo of mgs4-partially mgs5-ds was too much for me to handle.
Never been a fan of drunkdude, uncharted 4 bored me to death except for the gunfights, and i'm absolutely sure that everything i like in tlou2 wasn't personally coded by this dude.
Too many games, and especially RPGs, are relying on static camera angles that cut back and forth between two characters, who are just standing around barely animating, while they chat even in moments where they should be moving more.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
yes, but i didnt go and praise their games in the very next post lmao. i was also kidding.Pretty sure that if go into your post history, it's gonna be full of successful developers that you called hacks or worse, it's not that serious dude, we all hate some personalities in gaming for the most various reasons
I loved MGS4 despite its issues. MGSV broke me too but again, i found some comfort in the fact that he largely delivered on the actual combat.
DS1 had its issues with combat and the story but i loved the gameplay. I just loved that world. i loved helping other people. building stuff. its so different from everything else out there, i was just mesmerized by it. i went back to it after the ps5 version came out expecting to hate it but i ended up loving it even more because that initial learning curve was not there and i could enjoy it without getting frustrated by the mechanics.
Druckmann fucked up with the story but the rest of the game was fine. People dismiss sony games as cinematic trash, but i find the combat in ND games is phenomenal. i didnt like the combat in Uncharted 4, but that was bruce straley. who Neil hired to replace bruce as the gameplay director got the combat right.
I have always been able to ignore the flaws of these games and appreciate them for what they are. Its why i was able to admire Starfield, Alan Wake, Avatar and FF16 for their graphics despite disliking the game. Same goes for HFW to be honest though its a much better game than those other games. I actually hated playing MGS1 even though its like my favorite game of all time. I hated the controls. I hated the backtracking. But the game did so many other things right that I was like i cant hate it.
Kojima has always been divisive. Lets not forget that the guy made MGS2. His only perfect game is MGS3 and that game drops to 15 fps in groznigrad and still didnt have the over the shoulder cam that splinter cell had been using for 2 games by that point. Most of these directors have like one perfect game in them and then they coast on it. Druckman peaked with TLOU1. Todd Howard Fallout 3. Cory GOW2. Ken Levine Bioshock 1. Amy Henning Uncharted 2. Stig GOW3. Mikami RE4. honestly, everything Mikami has done since RE4 has been utterly mediocre. At least Druckman, Cory, Stig and Kojima are doing much better comparatively.
Perfect games are very rare. Every game is hacky in one way or another.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I skipped every single line of dialogue in Dragons Dogma 2. if you cant be bothered to animate it, i cant be bothered to listen to it.
And yes we need these guys. games are already designed by committee. we need these directors to get that feeling of a singular vision.
JCreasy
Member
People here warned me we’d see a downgrade in at least some aspects of Hellblade 2 before launch.
They were right.
We won’t get 0 LODs for gameplay until Epic delivers Nanite for skeletal meshes.
March Climber
Member
I haven't quite reached this point yet with RPGs, but I have found myself multiple times just turning on subtitles just so that I can spam-read through boring dialogue faster than they would speak it aloud. FF16 came really close to breaking me with meaningless and boring dialogue disguised as important quests.
The funny thing is, it's possible to make some of the quests like those interesting if you put just a hint of cinematic pizazz or fun into them. Make me feel like I'm experiencing a slice of life moment rather than looking at a checklist.
Personally I feel like good cinematography, color grading, presentation, etc. goes hand in hand with graphical fidelity and artistic direction, but I don't want to bog down the thread with these takes. I will continue to just mostly lurk and occasionally chime in.
March Climber
Member
Polygonal_Sprite
Member
My bad I didn’t realise you were talking about Sony’s studio games. I was more talking about third parties supporting Switch 2 in part because they already have a non RT version of most games for Series S. If Series S didn’t exist then Nintendo would again have to sell 20-30 million consoles to even think about getting full support. Nintendo’s CPU and RAM are much, much closer now so they’re going to get a fuckton of support for Switch 2 with most games adding it on top of PC, PS5 and Series consoles. It will also get a ton of PS4 gen third party games like Elden Ring, MH World, RDRII and the AC open World trilogy. Money for old rope for publishers.
I’m expecting a lot of PS5 Pro third party games to have RTGI enabled in their graphics modes while the PS5 versions will have standard lighting in theirs.
Last edited:
Balducci30
Member
Isn’t this all old footage cut together? That scene you’re talking about is from the trailer with the giant from a couple years back
Last edited:
ckstine
Member
guy on the right looks like guy pearce in la confidentialA journalist friend told me that it is a Detroit or Heavy Rain style game...
New image of Death Stranding 2.
You do realize that nearly every animation in AAA games have now been mo capped for several years right ?
Last edited:
JCreasy
Member
Naw, it’s new. That one guy who was seen previously with a photorealistic face (from the TGA trailer?) is seen here. It’s new footage of him.
The details in her face take a step back, indicating they’re using another LOD from what we’ve seen from the showcase cutscenes. Disappointingly, they’re using what I believe to be a disproportionate amount of cutscenes with hero LODs for the trailers. It’s deceptive and annoying.
Last edited:
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I think Cyberpunk is the only game to have RTGI on PC and not on consoles. Every other game i can think of has RTGI on both consoles and PC.
Hell, i dont think ive seen a single game that features hardware lumen on PC and software lumen on consoles. Maybe things change going forward but as avatar shows these consoles are powerful enough to do not just RTGI but also RT reflections and shadows at the same time.
Sony says that devs can now add multiple RT features in one game, but you look at games like Dragons Dogma 2 and they dont even have that on PC. I hate the shadows in that game and wouldve loved to have them.
I think what gymwolf is trying to say is that base PS5 games that feature no RT wont have RT on the Pro. But i think most Sony games will feature RTGI in their games going forward anyway. So the Pro will basically have RTGI plus maybe reflections or just an enhanced version of RTGI or 60 fps modes with RTGI. Even insomniac's leaked slides show realtime GI which could rt based or software based, but i think the entire industry is moving to RTGI or realtime GI. If RE engine and Creation engine (software based) can do it, so can sony's own internal engines.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
You barely see him though. He was shown just months ago. They are not downgrading a cutscene model 3 months later.Naw, it’s new. That one guy who was seen previously with a photorealistic face (from the TGA trailer?) is seen here. It’s new footage of him.
The details in her face take a step, indicating they’re using another LOD from what we’ve seen from the showcase cutscenes. Disappointingly, they’re using what I believe to be a disproportionate amount of cutscenes with hero LODs for the trailers. It’s deceptive and annoying.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
it will be downgraded and yes, its being rushed but avatar was very polished. probably the most polished game last year outside of FF16.
the overall visual fidelity will be very close to this. but i suspect those final few shots of the cities are going to see the biggest downgrades. they look too good to be true.
the wind effects were present in avatar, but the volumetric effects are way beyond what i saw in avatar. avatar also has no cities with this many npcs and just little huts.
the biggest concern i have is that they used black bars during gameplay a la hellblade 2 and the order. and while that would be ok if they showed console footage, they refused to say what they were running this on so this is likely running on a 4090 which is almost 3.5x more powerful than the ps5. if they needed a card that powerful just to run it at native 4k and still needed black bars to reduce the graphics load by 40% then yes, there are going to be doubts.
I wasnt too fussed about the Avatar downgrade because they showed PS5 footage running at 4k fsr 2 quality. so 1440p. Back then i said that they will just reduce the resolution instead of removing RTGI and reducing foliage quality and thats exactly what they ended up doing. In fact, the game goes up to 1800p and down to 1296p internally so it actually improved in some ways from that trailer. But this is running on PC so who knows.
i guess we will find out in 3 days.
JCreasy
Member
I’m talking about her face in that scene. What do you think?
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
in the IGN interview they mentioned how in the first game they had 2 days to mocap stuff and it was in a tiny room where they couldnt even do an upper cut using a sword because it would hit the ceiling.
For this game, there are 70 hours of motion captured animations being used. It's a massive upgrade over the first game. we dont know how it compares to other games, but compared to the first its a massive upgrade.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
her face looks fine in other scenes. im not concerned about a downgrade. we already got the downgrade from the original 2019 reveal.
this is from the series x trailer back on gamescom last year.
Balducci30
Member
You can’t see his face as it’s out of focus, and her face looks on par with the rest of it? I don’t know what you’re seeing that’s concerning here tbh - her face looks worse in the giant gameplayNaw, it’s new. That one guy who was seen previously with a photorealistic face (from the TGA trailer?) is seen here. It’s new footage of him.
The details in her face take a step back, indicating they’re using another LOD from what we’ve seen from the showcase cutscenes. Disappointingly, they’re using what I believe to be a disproportionate amount of cutscenes with hero LODs for the trailers. It’s deceptive and annoying.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Finished Dragons Dogma 2. Didnt like the game very much, but I was very impressed with the lighting all the way till the end. I really wish the RE engine can be upgraded to have nanite quality asset fidelity because thats the one last gen thing about the game. The rocks, the bricks and pretty much everything other than trees and foliage was last gen as fuck.
The materials on clothes and armors are really detailed and ive seen RE8 and RE4 push level of detail indoors before so its possible to have this level of fidelity through out an open world. They just need to improve their streaming system or utilize mesh shaders.
But the lighting made for some gorgeous looking scenes at times.
The materials on clothes and armors are really detailed and ive seen RE8 and RE4 push level of detail indoors before so its possible to have this level of fidelity through out an open world. They just need to improve their streaming system or utilize mesh shaders.
But the lighting made for some gorgeous looking scenes at times.
GymWolf
Member
I would hate if to introduce rtgi they are gonna cut even more on the other details.
I can't survive another spiderman 2 man...
GymWolf
Member
The only "impressive" part was the part at the end when they show various locations tbh.
Not really that impressive after avatar or ds2 or hb2, my socks were still in place at the end of the video.
I hope ac red is gonna look even better, that's the real money cow for ubisoft, people have been cold for star wars lately and valhalla was the most sold ac in history, if they are not morons, the game is gonna have the bigger budget out of all their projects.
They just need to upgrade their character rendering, they are really behind the best.
Wtf is this shit in 2024?
Last edited:
I dont doubt it will get downgraded because its the easy way but Im really not seeing what is so unbelievable about the visuals here. Its pretty standard high quality visuals and it doesn't seem like it is openworld so they can focus on quality a bit more if they put in the time and budget.it will be downgraded and yes, its being rushed but avatar was very polished. probably the most polished game last year outside of FF16.
the overall visual fidelity will be very close to this. but i suspect those final few shots of the cities are going to see the biggest downgrades. they look too good to be true.
the wind effects were present in avatar, but the volumetric effects are way beyond what i saw in avatar. avatar also has no cities with this many npcs and just little huts.
the biggest concern i have is that they used black bars during gameplay a la hellblade 2 and the order. and while that would be ok if they showed console footage, they refused to say what they were running this on so this is likely running on a 4090 which is almost 3.5x more powerful than the ps5. if they needed a card that powerful just to run it at native 4k and still needed black bars to reduce the graphics load by 40% then yes, there are going to be doubts.
I wasnt too fussed about the Avatar downgrade because they showed PS5 footage running at 4k fsr 2 quality. so 1440p. Back then i said that they will just reduce the resolution instead of removing RTGI and reducing foliage quality and thats exactly what they ended up doing. In fact, the game goes up to 1800p and down to 1296p internally so it actually improved in some ways from that trailer. But this is running on PC so who knows.
i guess we will find out in 3 days.
Last edited:
GymWolf
Member
It should be open world, but i bet the multiple planets are not gonna be super big.
MadchesterManc
Member
Finished Dragons Dogma 2. Didnt like the game very much, but I was very impressed with the lighting all the way till the end. I really wish the RE engine can be upgraded to have nanite quality asset fidelity because thats the one last gen thing about the game. The rocks, the bricks and pretty much everything other than trees and foliage was last gen as fuck.
The materials on clothes and armors are really detailed and ive seen RE8 and RE4 push level of detail indoors before so its possible to have this level of fidelity through out an open world. They just need to improve their streaming system or utilize mesh shaders.
But the lighting made for some gorgeous looking scenes at times.
While it's not a graphical showcase I do like how natural the game looks if you get what I mean, the RTGI certainly helps with that.