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[IDWhite]

it will be downgraded and yes, its being rushed but avatar was very polished. probably the most polished game last year outside of FF16.

the overall visual fidelity will be very close to this. but i suspect those final few shots of the cities are going to see the biggest downgrades. they look too good to be true.

the wind effects were present in avatar, but the volumetric effects are way beyond what i saw in avatar. avatar also has no cities with this many npcs and just little huts.

the biggest concern i have is that they used black bars during gameplay a la hellblade 2 and the order. and while that would be ok if they showed console footage, they refused to say what they were running this on so this is likely running on a 4090 which is almost 3.5x more powerful than the ps5. if they needed a card that powerful just to run it at native 4k and still needed black bars to reduce the graphics load by 40% then yes, there are going to be doubts.

I wasnt too fussed about the Avatar downgrade because they showed PS5 footage running at 4k fsr 2 quality. so 1440p. Back then i said that they will just reduce the resolution instead of removing RTGI and reducing foliage quality and thats exactly what they ended up doing. In fact, the game goes up to 1800p and down to 1296p internally so it actually improved in some ways from that trailer. But this is running on PC so who knows.

i guess we will find out in 3 days.

Even after the downgrade from the first trailer Avatar FoP it still a visual and sound masterpiece, but it doesn't deliver what it promised in terms of gameplay features, AI, and NPCs behaviour. Its not a buggy mess game but has several problems that prevent you to enjoy the game. As for today the game on Ps5 has some serious problems whit texture loading (ground textures), and LOD issues. Even some quests have bugged interactive objects (scannable terminals) that don't let you progress.

I'm expecting the same thing from Star Wars Outlaws.

 

[Xtib81]

They just need to upgrade their character rendering, they are really behind the best.

Wtf is this shit in 2024?

Character rendering and facial animations always look trash in Ubi games. I don't know why but whether it be the AC franchise, far cry, the division or even avatar, it always looks subpar.

 

[IDWhite]

Character rendering and facial animations always look trash in Ubi games. I don't know why but whether it be the AC franchise, far cry, the division or even avatar, it always looks subpar.

Because they are open world games with lots of things happening on screen, and resources are limited.

 

[CGNoire]

Her facial animations are the definition of uncanny valley, they really fucked up by not choosing someone with some acting experience or maybe their facial mocap\editing is just not top tier.

I'm sorry but ellie in tlou2 just looked more like a real person even with less graphic fidelity during cutscenes.

Ive wanted to say this for years. Her acting is so bad and over the top.

 

[GymWolf]

Ive wanted to say this for years. Her acting is so bad and over the top.

It was never a secret since the first trailer tbh.

 

[CGNoire]

T

Naw, it’s new. That one guy who was seen previously with a photorealistic face (from the TGA trailer?) is seen here. It’s new footage of him.

The details in her face take a step back, indicating they’re using another LOD from what we’ve seen from the showcase cutscenes. Disappointingly, they’re using what I believe to be a disproportionate amount of cutscenes with hero LODs for the trailers. It’s deceptive and annoying.

The fact of the matter is her face has purposely been kept behind a vasaline filter this whole time cause her face has been downgraded ever since the giant trailer.

 

[CGNoire]

It was never a secret since the first trailer tbh.

Since the 1st game.

 

[GymWolf]

I IDWhite

That is not an excuse in a world where hfw exist.

And the next ubisoft games are fully nextgen, not crossgen.





Not tlou2 level but better than any open world game and at least 80% of small games.
That game just set so many standards for open worlds it's not even funny, even without fancy lights.

Can you fucking imagine a new killzone with small, restricted levels? they would give ND a serious challenge to overcome with tlou3.

 

[GymWolf]

Since the 1st game.

I'm talking about the sequel, don't know about the first one.

 

[TheRedRiders]

I reckon Death Stranding 2 is running RTGI and I think Horizon 3 will pretty much require it to push things further. I think their excellent blended bake system has served them well but its time is over; no matter how hard they push everything else that lighting system will undermine the game in poorly lit areas, missed areas or areas with problematic lighting scenarios. I love Forbidden West's look and still find it visually cohesive in most cases, but when you catch a bad spot the image completely flattens and falls apart.

I'm gonna guess Horizon 3 will be a cross-gen PS5/6 title and I expect it'll have RTGI across the board as standard, with increasingly higher quality implementations on PS5 Pro and PS6, plus additional RT effects tacked on. Avoiding having to do bakes entirely would streamline dev quite a bit while also providing the payer with a more coherent visual experience.

I think if you're releasing a current-gen only, AAA open world title with a fully dynamic time of day from 2025 onwards, RTGI will be needed otherwise all the other stuff going on and getting upgrades will be hamstrung by it. It's a rising tide that lifts all ships, every element of the frame gets better, not just the effect in and of itself. I believe it's the biggest bottleneck right now in making dynamically lit games look better, you can throw all the geometry, fx, post-processing etc. at the problem but if you light it poorly it destroys the entire illusion.

I’ve always felt that RTGI was more important for visual consistency rather than visual fidelity.

Most studios have solid baked lighting solutions, which can be indistinguishable from the RT counterpart, but as you’ve mentioned these solutions fall apart in certain areas of the map. A full RT solution will solve this problem wonderfully, and a full RT pipeline will go a long way in streamlining the development process of many games.

 

[IDWhite]

I IDWhite

That is not an excuse in a world where hfw exist.

And the next ubisoft games are fully nextgen, not crossgen.





Not tlou2 level but better than any open world game and at least 80% of small games.

Guerrilla Games are one of the most talented devs on the tech and art side, and with HFW they show what they are capable of doing on a Ps4 engine, but whitout RT, mesh shader implementation... So it's not comparable until we see what they could do on a only next gen game.

 

[GymWolf]

Guerrilla Games are one of the most talented devs on the tech and art side, and with HFW they show what they are capable of doing on a Ps4 engine, but whitout RT, mesh shader implementation... So it's not comparable until we see what they could do on a only next gen game.

That was not my point.

My point is that if guerrilla can do incredible models and mocap in a crossgen open world, ubisoft should do the same on a fully nextgen game that is probably gonna have a similar if not bigger budget than hfw, ac odissey was rumored to have a 500mil budget against the 212 of hfw...

Ubisoft are talented aswell when it comes to graphic and they are not a small studio, there is zero excuse this time.

 

[SlimySnake]

That was not my point.

My point is that if guerrilla can do incredible models and mocap in a crossgen open world, ubisoft should do the same on a fully nextgen game that is probably gonna have a similar if not bigger budget than hfw, ac odissey was rumored to have a 500mil budget against the 212 of hfw...

Ubisoft are talented aswell when it comes to graphic and they are not a small studio, there is zero excuse this time.

Go watch some AC Unity cutscenes. They had some incredible cutscene models. The hair on the red head was absolutely gorgeous. The animations overall were some of the best last Gen but after it flopped, they switched to the ac origin engine and the combat animations, character models and npc counts were all sacrificed to make bigger open world games.

Ubisoft can do it. They just prioritize different things now.

I would hate if to introduce rtgi they are gonna cut even more on the other details.

I can't survive another spiderman 2 man...

The native 4k target is what held back spiderman 2. There ps5 can do rtgi, rt shadows and rt reflections with its 10 tflops with amazing foliage and other next Gen effects. I have no idea what insomniac were thinking here.

While it's not a graphical showcase I do like how natural the game looks if you get what I mean, the RTGI certainly helps with that.

I love the color tone in this game. Especially during the day where it’s got a very muted color palette. It really helps the game stand out from horizon and avatar.

 

[GymWolf]

Go watch some AC Unity cutscenes. They had some incredible cutscene models. The hair on the red head was absolutely gorgeous. The animations overall were some of the best last Gen but after it flopped, they switched to the ac origin engine and the combat animations, character models and npc counts were all sacrificed to make bigger open world games.

Ubisoft can do it. They just prioritize different things now.


The native 4k target is what held back spiderman 2. There ps5 can do rtgi, rt shadows and rt reflections with its 10 tflops with amazing foliage and other next Gen effects. I have no idea what insomniac were thinking here.


I love the color tone in this game. Especially during the day where it’s got a very muted color palette. It really helps the game stand out from horizon and avatar.

Who tells you that they are not gonna aim for 4k in horizon 3?

 

[SlimySnake]

Who tells you that they are not gonna aim for 4k in horizon 3?

Death stranding 2. If it has rtgi, Horizon will have rtgi and there is no way they can get rtgi in the game with all that foliage and detail at native 4k. Maybe death stranding will target it but like you said it is barren and won’t have the level of density of horizon.

I don’t think wolverine will either. This is what insomniac are aiming to do with wolverine. Its basically a ue5 feature list. I doubt you get all this at native 4k.

 

[Audiophile]

Running in real-time on a 4090, but still impressive. Can't wait for better VR headsets + nanite!

 

[amigastar]

Running in real-time on a 4090, but still impressive. Can't wait for better VR headsets + nanite!

That looks sick, i would love to have a flight simulator with these graphics.

 

[Xtib81]

Running in real-time on a 4090, but still impressive. Can't wait for better VR headsets + nanite!

That's when I'll be interested in VR.

 

[IDWhite]

That was not my point.

My point is that if guerrilla can do incredible models and mocap in a crossgen open world, ubisoft should do the same on a fully nextgen game that is probably gonna have a similar if not bigger budget than hfw, ac odissey was rumored to have a 500mil budget against the 212 of hfw...

Ubisoft are talented aswell when it comes to graphic and they are not a small studio, there is zero excuse this time.

They don't have the same goal in terms of rendering and gameplay features. And budgets could be spent on so many different things that there is no point in comparing those numbers.

 

[GymWolf]

They don't have the same goal in terms of rendering and gameplay features. And budgets could be spent on so many different things that there is no point in comparing those numbers.

i don't know, they are very similarly structured open world games, gaffers often call horizon a ubisoft game, so...

 

[DanielG165]

Ubisoft games can definitely have some amazing character moments with extremely convincing expressions and facial nuance, AC: Unity being a great example, and even Valhalla. The moments where they used actual mo-cap to properly convey emotion and the tone of the scene were fantastic, particularly this scene here:

They may not be AS good as other studios in this regard, like Guerrilla Games or NG or Rockstar, but when Ubi are good, they’re good. Outlaws has some really good facial work from what I’ve personally seen so far, not painstakingly realistic, but pleasantly stylized and nice to look at.

 

[Lethal01]

Ubisoft games can definitely have some amazing character moments with extremely convincing expressions and facial nuance, AC: Unity being a great example, and even Valhalla. The moments where they used actual mo-cap to properly convey emotion and the tone of the scene were fantastic, particularly this scene here:

They may not be AS good as other studios in this regard, like Guerrilla Games or NG or Rockstar, but when Ubi are good, they’re good. Outlaws has some really good facial work from what I’ve personally seen so far, not painstakingly realistic, but pleasantly stylized and nice to look at.

Yeah, this

being used as an example of terrible facial work was strange to me.

 

[SlimySnake]

i don't know, they are very similarly structured open world games, gaffers often call horizon a ubisoft game, so...

Yh very similar games. Definitely comparable.

Its not like horizon 1 didn’t have the same issues with stilted npc conversations. They just decided to listen to the criticism and improved them substantially. Something ac games and other open world games with npc dialogue options simply don’t bother to do.

 

[Hugare]

i don't know, they are very similarly structured open world games, gaffers often call horizon a ubisoft game, so...

I find Horizon to be one of the most devoided of life open world games out there

Huge dinos and etc., but you dont see human NPCs travelling around the open world and that "liveleness" you feel in other open world games out there, including those from Ubisoft

It looks bonkers, but it's a gamey ass open world game that doesn't feel alive at all

 

[GymWolf]

I find Horizon to be one of the most devoided of life open world games out there

Huge dinos and etc., but you dont see human NPCs travelling around the open world and that "liveleness" you feel in other open world games out there, including those from Ubisoft

It looks bonkers, but it's a gamey ass open world game that doesn't feel alive at all

They added people traveling around the map and fighting bandits and dinos in the sequel.

But yeah it's not rdr2.

 

[Buggy Loop]

I IDWhite

That is not an excuse in a world where hfw exist.

And the next ubisoft games are fully nextgen, not crossgen.





Not tlou2 level but better than any open world game and at least 80% of small games.
That game just set so many standards for open worlds it's not even funny, even without fancy lights.

Can you fucking imagine a new killzone with small, restricted levels? they would give ND a serious challenge to overcome with tlou3.

To me the jarring frame with different lighting when the cutscene changes to another character and the hair jumping around is a lot more negative points in 2024 than facial animation.

 

[SlimySnake]

I find Horizon to be one of the most devoided of life open world games out there

Huge dinos and etc., but you dont see human NPCs travelling around the open world and that "liveleness" you feel in other open world games out there, including those from Ubisoft

It looks bonkers, but it's a gamey ass open world game that doesn't feel alive at all

the funny thing is that there ARE NPCs walking around and getting into conflicts but they are so rare you might only encounter them once or twice.

i think the second game shouldve been on PS5 only just so they could increase that NPC vs dinobot or dinobot vs dinobot encounters. i wouldve loved to walk in an area and see dinobots fighting each other. it does happen but not often enough.

they shouldve created an eco system where big dinobots hunt small dinobots. i know thats not what Gaia intended but you can write in a story reason for it. Gaia was pretty much MIA and then useless for most of the game anyway. Some kind of controlled chaos with enemy factions and other tribes fighting over land and dinobot parts wouldve been great.

 

[Flabagast]

I IDWhite

That is not an excuse in a world where hfw exist.

And the next ubisoft games are fully nextgen, not crossgen.





Not tlou2 level but better than any open world game and at least 80% of small games.
That game just set so many standards for open worlds it's not even funny, even without fancy lights.

Can you fucking imagine a new killzone with small, restricted levels? they would give ND a serious challenge to overcome with tlou3.

The character design is so awful though, totally ruining the technical prowess of the game

 

[RavionUHD]

Some screenshots from Horizon Forbidden West Burning Shores DLC on PC in 4K Ultrawide

 

[GymWolf]

The character design is so awful though, totally ruining the technical prowess of the game

I like it, a bit flamboyant but at least pretty unique in term of armours.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

I IDWhite

That is not an excuse in a world where hfw exist.

And the next ubisoft games are fully nextgen, not crossgen.





Not tlou2 level but better than any open world game and at least 80% of small games.
That game just set so many standards for open worlds it's not even funny, even without fancy lights.

Can you fucking imagine a new killzone with small, restricted levels? they would give ND a serious challenge to overcome with tlou3.

The pic in the first and last vid look like a decent looking woman. The middle one looks like she gained several hundreds pounds and something went wrong.

 

[JCreasy]

Here it is boys. Nanite for skeletal meshes.

Hallelujah!

Early and experimental, but it’s here. It’s here!

I feel like we’re stepping off that cliff and into the next stage of fidelity.

Finally!

 

[CGNoire]

Yeah, this

being used as an example of terrible facial work was strange to me.

yeah same here. Ubisoft hasnt had the best looking characters forever but they make up for it alot with high quality animation. Also I've seen the uncompressed HD Scans from that trailer and she is way more detailed than that shitty compressed shot suggests.

 

[CGNoire]

Here it is boys. Nanite for skeletal meshes.

Hallelujah!

Early and experimental, but it’s here. It’s here!

I feel like we’re stepping of that cliff and into the next stage of fidelity.

Finally!

Dont get me wront this is super huge and all but It sucks that no one ever uses multmillion polygon meshs in these nanite character presentations. It like dude push that shit.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

Who the hell is this and why are they quoted here?

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

I think Cyberpunk is the only game to have RTGI on PC and not on consoles. Every other game i can think of has RTGI on both consoles and PC.

Hell, i dont think ive seen a single game that features hardware lumen on PC and software lumen on consoles. Maybe things change going forward but as avatar shows these consoles are powerful enough to do not just RTGI but also RT reflections and shadows at the same time.

Sony says that devs can now add multiple RT features in one game, but you look at games like Dragons Dogma 2 and they dont even have that on PC. I hate the shadows in that game and wouldve loved to have them.

I think what gymwolf is trying to say is that base PS5 games that feature no RT wont have RT on the Pro. But i think most Sony games will feature RTGI in their games going forward anyway. So the Pro will basically have RTGI plus maybe reflections or just an enhanced version of RTGI or 60 fps modes with RTGI. Even insomniac's leaked slides show realtime GI which could rt based or software based, but i think the entire industry is moving to RTGI or realtime GI. If RE engine and Creation engine (software based) can do it, so can sony's own internal engines.

Dying Light 2 and Control have RT gi on PC but not on console. I was so disappointed with the console versions of these games. They look so much better with rt gi.

 

[March Climber]

Finished Dragons Dogma 2. Didnt like the game very much, but I was very impressed with the lighting all the way till the end. I really wish the RE engine can be upgraded to have nanite quality asset fidelity because thats the one last gen thing about the game. The rocks, the bricks and pretty much everything other than trees and foliage was last gen as fuck.

The materials on clothes and armors are really detailed and ive seen RE8 and RE4 push level of detail indoors before so its possible to have this level of fidelity through out an open world. They just need to improve their streaming system or utilize mesh shaders.

But the lighting made for some gorgeous looking scenes at times.

Do you think DD2 surpasses the promise of Deep Down, graphically?

While it's not a graphical showcase I do like how natural the game looks if you get what I mean

The color tone/color grading helps. Capcom gets it.

This is why I worry about the MGS 3 Delta remake. While in a technical sense it looks nicer, I get the sense that the remake team doesn't quite get it.

 

[Balducci30]

Yeah, this

being used as an example of terrible facial work was strange to me.

People think this looks bad?

 

[SlimySnake]

I just recorded some footage of this area in Horizon's original trailer. Its not even close. The entire layout is different. lighting is different. foliage has been paired back substantially. Draw distance especially. it looks so different that it might as well be a CG target render instead of the CAPTURED ON PLAYSTATION 5 tag they tried to sell it as.

It's just as big a downgrade as anything ubisoft has done over the last ten years. Other opening shots of the trailer are even more stark. Crazy how GG went back to KZ2 era bullshit in just 13 years. some things dont change.

 

[SlimySnake]

Do you think DD2 surpasses the promise of Deep Down, graphically?

Nah, its not even close. Maybe in cutscenes. But there are only two of them. One at the start, the other at the end.

The color tone/color grading helps. Capcom gets it.

This is why I worry about the MGS 3 Delta remake. While in a technical sense it looks nicer, I get the sense that the remake team doesn't quite get it.

Yep. the trailer immediately felt off to me like one of those UE5 youtubers making it. But it's my favorite game of all time in UE5 so i dont care.

Lets hope they do a better job with the animations than bloober did with Silent Hill 2. I recently watched the latest trailer and it actually looks rather good but completely falls apart because of the animations. Even the walking animations are ps2 quality. bloober shouldve never been allowed to make this game.

 

[setoman]

I just recorded some footage of this area in Horizon's original trailer. Its not even close. The entire layout is different. lighting is different. foliage has been paired back substantially. Draw distance especially. it looks so different that it might as well be a CG target render instead of the CAPTURED ON PLAYSTATION 5 tag they tried to sell it as.

It's just as big a downgrade as anything ubisoft has done over the last ten years. Other opening shots of the trailer are even more stark. Crazy how GG went back to KZ2 era bullshit in just 13 years. some things dont change.

Wow the downgrade is astronomical. I remember people pointing out downgrades and were quickly shushed by S fans

They just need to upgrade their character rendering, they are really behind the best.

Wtf is this shit in 2024?

What? This looks good and is current gen.
There's something called art direction.
Not everyone has to go with photo-realism render.
I totally like the art style this is going for. IMO this looks better than Horizon FW and TLOUS2.
Unfortunately even this level of character rendering will most likely see a substantial downgrade.

 

[Cr1ptkeeper]

What? This looks good and is current gen.
There's something called art direction.
Not everyone has to go with photo-realism render.
I totally like the art style this is going for. IMO this looks better than Horizon FW and TLOUS2.
Unfortunately even this level of character rendering will most likely see a substantial downgrade.

Why is everybody saying SW Outlaws will be downgraded while everybody thinks the GTA6 trailer (which is graphically a generation above the Outlaws trailer) will be how the game looks when it releases?

 

[GymWolf]

If that unimpressive model get downgraded i'm gonna laugh my ass off.

 

[GymWolf]

yeah same here. Ubisoft hasnt had the best looking characters forever but they make up for it alot with high quality animation. Also I've seen the uncompressed HD Scans from that trailer and she is way more detailed than that shitty compressed shot suggests.

High quality animations? Discussions between characters have been looked stiffer than my dick after a session with stellar blade for a while now in their ac games.

They used to have good cutscenes and npcs chatting but not recently.

And their ingame combat animations have been glitchy and not the best for a while aswell, for honor was the last one with decent animations.

 

[GymWolf]

Why is everybody saying SW Outlaws will be downgraded while everybody thinks the GTA6 trailer (which is graphically a generation above the Outlaws trailer) will be how the game looks when it releases?

Because ubisoft is not rockstar, even if they are basically the closest studio in term of size, budgets and manpower.

But yeah, outlaw doesn't look as impressive as wd1\div1 reveal to warrant such a fear of downgrade, it probably gonna look very similar.

 

[SlimySnake]

Wow the downgrade is astronomical. I remember people pointing out downgrades and were quickly shushed by S fans

People legit forgot the existence of that trailer lmao. Everyone kept posting the gameplay reveal every time i talked about the downgrade.

What? This looks good and is current gen.
There's something called art direction.
Not everyone has to go with photo-realism render.
I totally like the art style this is going for. IMO this looks better than Horizon FW and TLOUS2.
Unfortunately even this level of character rendering will most likely see a substantial downgrade.

She looks good but last gen compared to 1943.

Callisto, AW2 and FF16 character models look better too. Hell, even Spiderman 2 which was rightfully trashed here for last gen character models looks better than this star wars model in some cutscenes.

Massive isnt a cinematic focused studio like Sony studios so thats expected, but it could definitely be better.

 

[SlimySnake]

Why is everybody saying SW Outlaws will be downgraded while everybody thinks the GTA6 trailer (which is graphically a generation above the Outlaws trailer) will be how the game looks when it releases?

history. Ubisoft has a history of massive downgrades. Especially Massive. Rockstar's downgrades are very minor comparison.

Because ubisoft is not rockstar, even if they are basically the closest studio in term of size, budgets and manpower.

But yeah, outlaw doesn't look as impressive as wd1\div1 reveal to warrant such a fear of downgrade, it probably gonna look very similar.

I think its definitely doable but those scenes at the end have the largest potential for a downgrade.

Star Wars, Baldurs Gate 3, Dragons Dogma 2 cant handle cities with NPCs this gen for some reason. And they look last gen in comparison. My guess is somethings gotta give and those particular scenes will be the one who will get hit the hardest.

 

[GymWolf]

history. Ubisoft has a history of massive downgrades. Especially Massive. Rockstar's downgrades are very minor comparison.


I think its definitely doable but those scenes at the end have the largest potential for a downgrade.

Star Wars, Baldurs Gate 3, Dragons Dogma 2 cant handle cities with NPCs this gen for some reason. And they look last gen in comparison. My guess is somethings gotta give and those particular scenes will be the one who will get hit the hardest.

I don't get why, the npcs is in all those games ia atrociously basic and in dd2 they appear in front of you like a ps1 game.

I think bg3 has the more complicate interactions but not by much (and it's turn based so less heavy than real time i think).

 

[SlimySnake]

I don't get why, the npcs is in all those games ia atrociously basic and in dd2 they appear in front of you like a ps1 game.

you and me both. I had an ox spawn in front of me in Dragons Dogma 2 last night. i couldnt move. i thought the game was glitched at first. then i stepped back and realized i was inside an invisible oxcart lol.

Btw, i saw a seagul spawn in front of me in horizon FW last night. literally in front me. So this is an issue other games suffer from.

It all just makes me appreciate Spiderman 2 more. Their NPC variety is off the charts and not only are there a lot of them but they also have probably the most dense traffic system in a game outside of the Matrix demo.

Just look at those NPCs in the distance. It would be hilarious if Spiderman 2 ages better than Horizon 2 after all the shit we gave it. FF16 already has.

P.S i think starfield, Dragons Dogma 2 and star wars all have NPCs you can interact with. I wonder if thats the reason why they are so heavy on the CPU.

 

[Musilla]

Callisto has the most detailed protagonist of the generation, by a good margin.