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[Black-Box]

WHAT ?

where is there a pressing need to use force to protect themselves? these are peaceful demonstrations out of clearly defined and seperated poopooforoi

how else do you protect yourself?

from what I see is that there were people who caused trouble, it doesn't matter where the person who caused trouble was, or what they did, it means more are there to cause trouble.

look at the Vancouver riots, lots of people who rioted did it because other people did, ignoring the fact the cops didn't plan for it.

all it takes is 1 person, and the video doesn't really show anything where the cops are, for all we know, is that maybe the cops were provoked and wanted to clear the area before things got worse.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Someone needs to send the mace happy riot cop. He'll get this whole thing under control.

 

[Neo C.]

I don't understand pictures like this:
http://i.imgur.com/Bb4yT.jpg

Why mad at Germans? Yeah, we give you the "rules" what your country should do with the money, but on the other side we pay a shitload of money to save your country from total bancrupt.

And yeah, it doesn't go too well when we have to work until 67 (increased from 65 a few years ago, and 70 already in discussion) an we hear things like you can go into pension with 55 after working 37 years....
And when we then see pictures like this in our media, of course we think "lol greece, we pay for you and you hate us for it".
And yes, I know this is a very narrow view and I should probably see all sides, I am just saying what comes through here in Germany and what most people think, and pictures like that surely won't help your cause.

Coincidently I've just read the newest printed Spiegel today. History is ironic: The Germans aren't hot for ruling the EU but they have to; the Frenchs want to dictate the rules, but can't (Merkel has a higher standing than Sarkozy, because lol French economy).

Now the austerity policy: It can work, even George Soros says so (see the interview in Spiegel), but only when it's coupled with a conjuncture program. So basically: cut the fat (damn Greeks bureaucracy with tons of priviledge), but help the economy. So why haven't we seen the conjuncture program yet? Because the Greeks haven't cut the fat yet, all the government has done is to make promises they didn't keep. It's like the political class in Greece wants to keep the priviledges while taking the money for the foreseeable conjuncture program. All the talk of a European Marshall-plan is futile at current terms.

Edit: My country isn't directly involved, so the only thing we can do is to prepare for either way (Greece stay in EU or get out of it and declare bankruptcy).

 

[Jenga]

if the greek protestors are successful what happens? current leaders thrown out?

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Coincidently I've just read the newest printed Spiegel today. History is ironic: The Germans aren't hot for ruling the EU but they have to; the Frenchs want to dictate the rules, but can't (Merkel has a higher standing than Sarkozy, because lol French economy).

Now the austerity policy: It can work, even George Soros says so (see the interview in Spiegel), but only when it's coupled with a conjuncture program. So basically: cut the fat (damn Greeks bureaucracy with tons of priviledge), but help the economy. So why haven't we seen the conjuncture program yet? Because the Greeks haven't cut the fat yet, all the government has done is to make promises they didn't keep. It's like the political class in Greece wants to keep the priviledges while taking the money for the foreseeable conjuncture program. All the talk of a European Marshall-plan is futile at current terms.

Edit: My country isn't directly involved, so the only thing we can do is to prepare for either way (Greece stay in EU or get out of it and declare bankruptcy).

so it's basically as it's always been, negotiating with a landed aristocracy with almost no regard for the demos.

if the greek protestors are successful what happens? current leaders thrown out?

good question. Nationalists want out of the EU, normal people probably just don't want to be thrown on the streets for the sake of bankers and corrupt asshats

 

[WARCOCK]

if the greek protestors are successful what happens? current leaders thrown out?

LOL!

 

[makingmusic476]

Thank you very much for this topic OP.

I've been trying to get a good handle on the situation in Greece, and this should help considerably with that. I know it must be tough dedicating significant time to this when the world around you is essentially falling apart.

I can't wait to hear your thoughts on what should be done to help fix the situation. It seems to me that the Greek people are caught between a rock and a hard place, with a government that has its hands tied through debt and a severe shortage of jobs and resources, thus you have no way to dig yourselves out of the hole you've been put in. I hope I'm wrong on that.

 

[PJV3]

It's a shame that the UK and the EU didn't focus on growth along with the USA, some of the pain could have been avoided and a united strategy would have probably avoided a lot of the market turmoil. I don't see anyway out for Greece now, i just wish the people luck.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

if the greek protestors are successful what happens? current leaders thrown out?

I doubt they'll be able to force Merkel out.

 

[Jenga]

I doubt they'll be able to force Merkel out.

hey i just wanna know what they're fightin for

 

[BobsRevenge]

Coincidently I've just read the newest printed Spiegel today. History is ironic: The Germans aren't hot for ruling the EU but they have to; the Frenchs want to dictate the rules, but can't (Merkel has a higher standing than Sarkozy, because lol French economy).

Now the austerity policy: It can work, even George Soros says so (see the interview in Spiegel), but only when it's coupled with a conjuncture program. So basically: cut the fat (damn Greeks bureaucracy with tons of priviledge), but help the economy. So why haven't we seen the conjuncture program yet? Because the Greeks haven't cut the fat yet, all the government has done is to make promises they didn't keep. It's like the political class in Greece wants to keep the priviledges while taking the money for the foreseeable conjuncture program. All the talk of a European Marshall-plan is futile at current terms.

Edit: My country isn't directly involved, so the only thing we can do is to prepare for either way (Greece stay in EU or get out of it and declare bankruptcy).

I think Paul Krugman's warnings should be heeded as well though. His op-eds have been extremely enlightening on how Europe has been mishandling this, and he has been largely correct so far, from my understanding.

The man is a beast.

 

[twobear]

It's a shame that the UK and the EU didn't focus on growth along with the USA, some of the pain could have been avoided and a united strategy would have probably avoided a lot of the market turmoil. I don't see anyway out for Greece now, i just wish the people luck.

no way man we like definitely didn't have a choice but to cut everything immediately and anyone who disagrees doesn't know anything about economics even if they have a nobel prize for it

 

[Foffy]

Situations like these is why I think our species is retarded. You'd think with millions of years of evolution we'd be able to live together and develop a world. Instead it's just the same old pattern repeating itself through centuries.

Maybe this is the "circle of life" for our species? :<

 

[PJV3]

no way man we like definitely didn't have a choice but to cut everything immediately and anyone who disagrees doesn't know anything about economics even if they have a nobel prize for it

We'd better be quiet, most of UKGaf will come in and tell us off. The moment has passed anyway.

 

[Jenga]

no way man we like definitely didn't have a choice but to cut everything immediately and anyone who disagrees doesn't know anything about economics even if they have a nobel prize for it

oh hell naw you americans don't tell us what to do nuh uh gurl friend don't go therrr

 

[Dambrosi]

Hooded ones &#8211; Koukouloforoi


First of all, the existence of a very specific group called hooded ones is not up for debate. The police and the government recognizes them, but calls them anarchist block that &#8220;must be arrested&#8221; (they simply can&#8217;t&#8230.
While an anarchist block does exist here, the parallel existence of provocateurs is at this time accepted by literally everyone in Greece.

Well, the fires set by the provocateur hooded ones, and almost certainly not the anarchist block (I won&#8217;t even answer to ridiculous claims that they were set by normal protesting people), serve various purposes:

1. All the foreign media now show scenes of destructions in Greece instead of scenes of a million people protesting the pillaging and occupation of the TROIKA. The theme seems to be: &#8220;lol stupid Greeks burning their country when it needs money&#8221; in some cases.

2. People are then scared to go to these protests since these are frightening scenes.

3. The destruction can be used to pass restrictive legislation due to &#8220;emergency&#8221; events. Right now the chief of police is talking with the politicians responsible for public order in coming up with laws restricting protests so they can arrest and terrorize people.

That's the plan.

They're called the Black Bloc, and are a shadowy Police tactic. They're off-duty coppers in disguise. We Brits should know, we had them during both the student fees protests and the Tottenham Riots last year, stirring things up just to make the protesters/rioters look bad/worse in the media.

It's simple PR misdirection, designed to keep order by making ordinary people disgusted at the idea of protesting and more likely to side with the authorities, no matter how "austere" their policies get.

 

[Wazzim]

I hope the Greek civilians will win this battle for justice just make sure you keep safe Greek-GAF!

I also have a question about the KKE, I know it's big in Greece and their posters are everywhere (at least in Athenes) but has the support for the party grown in the past months/years?

 

[Neo C.]

so it's basically as it's always been, negotiating with a landed aristocracy with almost no regard for the demos.

Yeah, the negotiation is useless, the Greek governement haven't done their job for two years. The Greeks haven't privatized their institutions, haven't made the important reforms to help private companies, they still play their political game. I doubt they'll ever have a responsible government in the next 20 years, but sending experts to do the administration is a no no because lol nation pride.

if the greek protestors are successful what happens? current leaders thrown out?

Those people don't have plans. Hell, according to Spiegel (printed article) the extreme right wing as well as its counterpart would get the most votes if the Greeks voted right now. Greece is simply a failed state, it can't be helped.

I think Paul Krugman's warnings should be heeded as well though. His op-eds have been extremely enlightening on how Europe has been mishandling this, and he has been largely correct so far, from my understanding.

The man is a beast.

As much as I agree with Krugman's position, you can't implement conjuncture programs without politics. It isn't like the EU doesn't want to do a Marshall plan, but right now Greece still has a deep structural problem.

 

[The_Inquisitor]

Poisonelf,

euxaristo para poli for your coverage. My family is from Stoupa about 100 miles down the coast from Kalamata. Do you know what if anything is happening in southern greece?

 

[Acidote]

The hooded cops thing has happened in Spain too. They started the violent actions in a few demonstrations to justify their charges and use of force, and to make the whole demonstration looks bad in the media. They were caught dressing as usual citizens, but using their reglamentary boots, and even coming out from police vans before the demonstration.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Exact, I don't think any Greek denies there are deep deep issues in the government, but the method in which it's being handled really only benefits the aristocrats who've been screwin the pooch for the last 3 decades.

Greece is deeply structurally flawed, but you don't fix that by squeezing the last drops of juice out of her and then using her solely as a source of income as there would be almost ZERO chance for Greece to realistically be out of debt and to become self sustaining.

The hooded cops thing has happened in Spain too. They started the violent actions in a few demonstrations to justify their charges and use of force, and to make the whole demonstration looks bad in the media. They were caught dressing as usual citizens, but using their reglamentary boots, and even coming out from police vans before the demonstration.

un hecho? like, a real fact or more "well we're pretty damn sure"

 

[Wazzim]

The hooded cops thing has happened in Spain too. They started the violent actions in a few demonstrations to justify their charges and use of force, and to make the whole demonstration looks bad in the media. They were caught dressing as usual citizens, but using their reglamentary boots, and even coming out from police vans before the demonstration.

Didn't they do this in Egypt too? It's interesting to see the different police forces use the same tactic.

 

[ElectricThunder]

A very well done topic on a heated, and continuing to escalate, issue---keep at it poisonelf.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Didn't they do this in Egypt too? It's interesting to see the different police forces use the same tactic.

That's assuming it's true and not people trying to excuse there (by and large) own violence.

 

[Salvor.Hardin]

I sincerely doubt Greece will be part of the Eurozone following this summer. Greek politicians simply have no fucking clue.

 

[HarryHengst]

Coincidently I've just read the newest printed Spiegel today. History is ironic: The Germans aren't hot for ruling the EU but they have to; the Frenchs want to dictate the rules, but can't (Merkel has a higher standing than Sarkozy, because lol French economy).

Now the austerity policy: It can work, even George Soros says so (see the interview in Spiegel), but only when it's coupled with a conjuncture program. So basically: cut the fat (damn Greeks bureaucracy with tons of priviledge), but help the economy. So why haven't we seen the conjuncture program yet? Because the Greeks haven't cut the fat yet, all the government has done is to make promises they didn't keep. It's like the political class in Greece wants to keep the priviledges while taking the money for the foreseeable conjuncture program. All the talk of a European Marshall-plan is futile at current terms.

Edit: My country isn't directly involved, so the only thing we can do is to prepare for either way (Greece stay in EU or get out of it and declare bankruptcy).

I agree with you if with 'cutting the fat' you mean redistributing the blood of the plutocrats and technocrats that are now trying to sell out anything that remains in Greece. Because thats the only fat that is left in Greece.

I hope that Greece manages to drive it's elite away during the revolution (they're not riots, no matter what the media says) and turns into a socialist state like Yugoslavia was. Socialism and workers self-management are the only morally right ways to base an economy on.

 

[Wiktor]

I think Greece should just bancrupt and be thrown out of eurozone. If other countries get ready for it they will be able to wheather the storm caused by effects of this. And really, what's happening now is just prolonging agony. Of course, I wonder if the greek people realize that the living standards they had up untill recently are impossible to be achieved again anytime soon.

 

[LJ11]

Coincidently I've just read the newest printed Spiegel today. History is ironic: The Germans aren't hot for ruling the EU but they have to; the Frenchs want to dictate the rules, but can't (Merkel has a higher standing than Sarkozy, because lol French economy).

Now the austerity policy: It can work, even George Soros says so (see the interview in Spiegel), but only when it's coupled with a conjuncture program. So basically: cut the fat (damn Greeks bureaucracy with tons of priviledge), but help the economy. So why haven't we seen the conjuncture program yet? Because the Greeks haven't cut the fat yet, all the government has done is to make promises they didn't keep. It's like the political class in Greece wants to keep the priviledges while taking the money for the foreseeable conjuncture program. All the talk of a European Marshall-plan is futile at current terms.

Edit: My country isn't directly involved, so the only thing we can do is to prepare for either way (Greece stay in EU or get out of it and declare bankruptcy).

Would you happen to know if the Soros article is online, not that I really care what he has to say, though I am curious.

Greek budget deficits were big prior to the global economy blowing up, only worsened after, they need massive cuts just to balance the budget. Then you realize they need to run large surpluses for the rest of the decade, something that's pretty much unsustainable without massive deflation choking the economy completely. And even if they somehow manage to do all this, they will still be around 120-130% debt to GDP in a decade.

Not really cutting the fat, it's cutting off everything but the head.

Graphs brought to you by Paul Krugman.

I think Greece should just bancrupt and be thrown out of eurozone. If other countries get ready for it they will be able to wheather the storm caused by effects of this. And really, what's happening now is just prolonging agony. Of course, I wonder if the greek people realize that the living standards they had up untill recently are impossible to be achieved again anytime soon.

They will go bankrupt, this is just a stall tactic to shore up the surrounding areas/banks as best they can. Look at the Escrow account proposal. All handouts will go into an account that the Greek govt can't touch until all debt payments have been made. If agreed to, this essentially makes the Greek bailout a bank bailout, but you can't do it overtly in an election year, so you hide it as best you can. Creditors receive first payment, the Greeks get whatever scraps are left.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I agree with you if with 'cutting the fat' you mean redistributing the blood of the plutocrats and technocrats that are now trying to sell out anything that remains in Greece. Because thats the only fat that is left in Greece.

I hope that Greece manages to drive it's elite away during the revolution (they're not riots, no matter what the media says) and turns into a socialist state like Yugoslavia was. Socialism and workers self-management are the only morally right ways to base an economy on.

Ah yes Yugoslavia, nothing wrong happened with them in the long run.

 

[Cyan]

I understand what you are saying and I am not personally offended. I think what I wanted to say is, with pictures like these (and Germans are still very sensible about WW2), the general public of Germany will be offended and that won't help the cause of the Greece people. Especially because we (and with "we" I mean every single working German) are paying so that the Greece can have it better again.

That Merkel and other politicians make bullshit decisions is another thing.

Germany isn't paying to save Greece. They're paying to save the Euro, their position of primacy in Europe, and German banks.

 

[poisonelf]

Just got back home. Again, thanks for the support, I honestly really appreciate, especially after the start of this whole nightmare when almost everyone was geared to hate on Greece.

Very interesting. Thank you for posting.

The Tunisians, Egyptians and Libyans just overthrew iron-fisted dictators who ruled through terror, fear and were willing to torture and/or slaughter their own people. The Syrians are fighting an astonishingly brutal one right now. While the situation in Greece isn't really comparable, I really hope the Greek people don't give up until they win. There are people need to be held accountable. It's unacceptable that the Greek people pay the price while the guilty ones walk off scott free. I'm loving the recent trend of people power overcoming corrupt elites/dictators and I hope for a positive outcome for Greece and the Greek people.

Truth be told things here, regarding force being used against the people, are obviously lighter than Tunisia, Egypt and no point in comparing with Libya... After having lived through our situation my respect for these people has grown tremendously, they are heroes. I was already admiring them, like you I love this recent trend, but now I kind of realize a fraction of what they went through.

The reality is that Greece, being a Western nation as much as some people now want to deny it because it offends sensitivities with what is happening I guess, had a pampered population. Sure, not as pampered as Americans or Dutch people perhaps, but still certainly not used to such violence.

On the other hand, from videos I've seen, I could be wrong, things are more brutal than they were in Serbia, Romania, or even Argentina, and the governments did resign there. Here, even after deaths in some of the previous protests, they refuse to fucking budge.

ei poisonelf, boras na me milas, pou simainei h lexi 'koukouloforoi' ? it sounds sick as hell, like a sneaky bastard


but this is a great thread, My heart goes out to the greek people.

Hey! As I said, koukouloforoi literally means "hooded ones", or to be even more literal "those who bear hoods".

I hope the Greek civilians will win this battle for justice just make sure you keep safe Greek-GAF!

I also have a question about the KKE, I know it's big in Greece and their posters are everywhere (at least in Athenes) but has the support for the party grown in the past months/years?

KKE is a very special case. It's big, and support has grown, but not greatly. It's seen as too immovable, too set in its ways, and by many it's also seen as part of the system.

There are many left parties here, and support for them has certainly grown, it's not only KKE. It's also SYRIZA and DEMOCRATIC ALLIANCE (DIMOKRATIKI SIMAHIA) to name the bigger ones.

Poisonelf,

euxaristo para poli for your coverage. My family is from Stoupa about 100 miles down the coast from Kalamata. Do you know what if anything is happening in southern greece?

Parakalo!
Nothing as extreme as in Athens or Thessaloniki. There are protests everywhere but no such violence.

 

[Wazzim]

I just think it's funny to always see the poor being squeezed out but the rich can do what the hell they want. Why doesn't the IMF force Greece to lower the pays of the dudes in power? Why doesn't the IMF force them to drastically raise taxes on the rich? Why do we here have to pay the interest of the banks and not pay for the poor citizens in Greece?
What the fuck do they think they are? I don't want to pay for Greece's debt with the insane interest rate, not because I don't want to help Greece but because all the money will flow from our pockets to the foreign banks anyway.

Even worse is how our minister of finances is trying to use the problems in Greece as a reason to freeze our salaries here. 'In solidarity' he says. Good luck at trying to export all those Greek/Spanish/Italian products to the European market now.

C + I + G + X &#8722; M = Y

It isn't that hard.

That's assuming it's true and not people trying to excuse there (by and large) own violence.

Yeah there is no solid proof (as of now).

 

[Fusion Pizza]

Hey poison elf my heart goes out to you and all your brethren. This fight isnt limited to nations anymore however, if we are all going to win this fight we have to realize this fact.

 

[kame-sennin]

The central issue of the mega-post I'm trying to create about the Greek situation is actually this, the incredible difference between reality and media representation of it and skewing of public opinion.

Corporate owned media outlets will never give you a fair shake. The same has been true for protest movements in the U.S. and U.K. It sucks, but there's not much that can be done about it.

trouble can look like anything, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, its not the cops fault.

is there orders to kill? no it isn't

There is a reason why people who cause trouble where masks.

but to me, I look at it as, cops are out numbered, you don't know whats going to happen. you do what you do to keep safe. Cops don't know who will cause terror, but when you are in a crowd of 1000's would you really take that chance?

also the 2 old guys, they didn't have to be there, they could of been at the back, and still would have the same power as being upfront, at that age, I wouldn't want them to be in the front lines, because a hundred other things could happen to them.

I picture worse things could happen if the police weren't even there.

Apologists for police brutality always find new ways to surprise me. These Greeks should have the right to assemble. When thousands of people are in the streets demanding fair treatment, the police don't get to say 'someone could get violent, so let's use violence to disperse the crowd'. If violence occurs, the police can deal with it, but there's no justification for preemptive force.

Didn't they do this in Egypt too? It's interesting to see the different police forces use the same tactic.

I don't know about Greece and Egypt, but many police forces share tactics with police from other nations.

 

[CorvoSol]

This has been a very eye-opening topic. It seems to me that, to some extent, the majority of the world is in some manner of turmoil. I wonder how our children will look on these times?

 

[Angry Fork]

The people who keep blaming this kind of shit on "socialism" drive me up the fucking wall. My blood boils when people don't understand what communism/socialism is.

On that huffpost suicide page you have people talking about 'this is where we're headed with Obama and socialism' WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. I see youtube comments saying Obama is a friend of big business AND socialist at the same time. It makes me lose my shit. I wish these people stopped listening to alex jones propaganda and looked up the definitions to these words. People don't seem to understand the difference between Communism (which is a noble, if currently improbable goal) and North Korea totalitarianism.

I know I'm going off on a tangent but there will inevitably be people on the right in this country who will act like Greece and european 'socialism' is the cause of all of this.

 

[poisonelf]

There are more posts I want to reply to, especially the issue of why the anger towards Germany, but I'll do it tomorrow since these are large posts and need lots of sources again.

Just a couple of sad stories I wanted to share.

I was for coffee with a friend who was at the Thessaloniki protest (2nd largest city, the one where police spray peaceful protesters from behind to herd them in one of the videos I posted).
He described a scene where koukouloforoi are breaking into banks, tearing off marbles, and throwing marble pieces and molotovs at police. At one point, the police circles around them and rushes through them. They could have arrested everyone, and they didn't even push or hit them, let alone arrest them.

The second one is sadder for me, it showcases the humiliation we are experiencing as a people because some banks and some politicians want additional billions.

I was playing DotA online. Someone asks me "host, where from?" I respond Greece. That was at minute 0, so it was not a result of a kill or anything. Immediately 6 out of the other 9 players, completely unrelated and from different countries, start off with "lol you can still pay for internet?" and "bring us back our money faggots", etc etc.

Now this is obviously insignificant next to the homeless and the suicidal, but when I've said that Greeks are the new "OK to be racist against" of our time I was called, again, a drama queen. It's an awful feeling, especially since I'm informed enough to know that it's all essentially an unfair scam against our country.

 

[Mato]

The lack of common sense in this country is distressing - it always has been. Injustice, propaganda, poor education, compulsiveness, arrogance and ignorance, people are full of it. Most fellow Greek minds wouldn't be able to tell the truth from the lie even if the truth hovered right in front of their eyes. The political system is to blame for this, for with their actions they fed all the evil inclinations people naturally have and allowed other forces (i.e. media) to have a feast on that. Let's hope with the ongoing changes in the educational system younger generations will grow up to be more pragmatic and just in their disposition. Most of us were wasted before the "crisis" begun anyway. Poisonelf please stop trying to defend Greece, with your mawkish arguments you only help showcase just how depressingly misinformed most young Greeks are.

 

[Sonki.]

Great OP.

 

[WARCOCK]

The people who keep blaming this kind of shit on "socialism" drive me up the fucking wall. My blood boils when people don't understand what communism/socialism is.

On that huffpost suicide page you have people talking about 'this is where we're headed with Obama and socialism' WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. I see youtube comments saying Obama is a friend of big business AND socialist at the same time. It makes me lose my shit. I wish these people stopped listening to alex jones propaganda and looked up the definitions to these words. People don't seem to understand the difference between Communism (which is a noble, if currently improbable goal) and North Korea totalitarianism.

I know I'm going off on a tangent but there will inevitably be people on the right in this country who will act like Greece and european 'socialism' is the cause of all of this.

Slowwww down there bucky, ok first we need to make alot of distinctions here. Communism as understood traditionally as marxist-leninism or 20th century state imposed communism failed to a great extent. Why or how? I feel there are no answers that prove in an undeniable way that the system is fundamentally flawed. But given the historical consequences of these given forms of governance, would you in fair conscience want to reproduce them?

We need to distinguish the essence of marx and the idea of the commune from the legacy of 20th century communism. Marxism is not the answer either but instead perhaps the conduit that can helps us initiate the right conversations.

Krugman has shown that social democracy/"EUROPEAN SOCIALISM"(which is really not SOCIALISM), has very little to do with the european debt crisis.

 

[poisonelf]

The lack of common sense in this country is distressing - it always has been. Injustice, propaganda, poor education, compulsiveness, arrogance and ignorance, people are full of it. Most fellow Greek minds wouldn't be able to tell the truth from the lie even if the truth hovered right in front of their eyes. The political system is to blame for this, for with their actions they fed all the evil inclinations people naturally have and allowed other forces (i.e. media) to have a feast on that. Let's hope with the ongoing changes in the educational system younger generations will grow up to be more pragmatic and just in their disposition. Most of us were wasted before the "crisis" begun anyway. Poisonelf please stop trying to defend Greece, with your mawkish arguments you only help showcase just how depressingly misinformed most young Greeks are.

I can't even understand what you're trying to say... First off I'm 34, I'm a business owner after going through various jobs, I've studied social sciences in an American college, and I'm currently studying Greek Civilization in the Greek Open University.

Can you please use facts and sources and tell me what you actually mean? I know there are still Greeks under absolute self-blame, some misinformed, others guilty being 'komatoskila' and having been part of the corruption, others simply disgusted with various attitudes around them. Really... what do you mean?

 

[ksan]

The people who keep blaming this kind of shit on "socialism" drive me up the fucking wall. My blood boils when people don't understand what communism/socialism is.

On that huffpost suicide page you have people talking about 'this is where we're headed with Obama and socialism' WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. I see youtube comments saying Obama is a friend of big business AND socialist at the same time. It makes me lose my shit. I wish these people stopped listening to alex jones propaganda and looked up the definitions to these words. People don't seem to understand the difference between Communism (which is a noble, if currently improbable goal) and North Korea totalitarianism.

I know I'm going off on a tangent but there will inevitably be people on the right in this country who will act like Greece and european 'socialism' is the cause of all of this.

Oh, except for the fact that that a government that could share many faults (if not close to all) of North Korean totalitarianism would be a completely acceptable way to reach communism according to the classic interpretation of the ideology.

 

[Quixzlizx]

I don't really get how the public worker threatening suicide is supposed to help the cause. The political/economic machine in which the public workers have ensconced themselves is what is helping to bankrupt the country, along with the corrupt politicians.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I can't even understand what you're trying to say... First of I'm 34, I'm a business owner after going through various jobs, I've studied social sciences in an American college, and I'm currently studying Greek Civilization in the Greek Open University.

Can you please use facts and sources and tell me what you actually mean? I know there are still Greeks under absolute self-blame, some misinformed, others guilty being 'komatoskila' and having been part of the corruption, others simply disgusted with various attitudes around them. Really... what do you mean?

I think he means Greeks should stop trying to rationalize and blame others for something that they caused.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I don't really get how the public worker threatening suicide is supposed to help the cause. The political/economic machine in which the public workers have ensconced themselves is what is helping to bankrupt the country, along with the corrupt politicians.

Hypocritical attention whoring, I'd wager.

 

[kame-sennin]

Now this is obviously insignificant next to the homeless and the suicidal, but when I've said that Greeks are the new "OK to be racist against" of our time I was called, again, a drama queen. It's an awful feeling, especially since I'm informed enough to know that it's all essentially an unfair scam against our country.

People have very little understanding of how banks from various countries have screwed over Greece (and the rest of the world), like when Goldman Sachs helped hide Greek debt and then bet money that Greece would default. People see Greece's resistance without understanding the cause of the problem, and so they blame Greek citizens. It sucks, and racism only exacerbates the issue.

 

[poisonelf]

I'll be damned... I thought I was alone in trying to inform about what's happening here through informal media A friend just sent me this:

http://9gag.com/gag/2681884

I generally avoid 9gag, reddit taught me to really hate rage comics. But this is surprisingly very well informed, even though I do disagree with small parts of it. There's lots of information crammed in there.

There are obviously no sources, so I'm not in any way "using" this as part of my posts, but it's actually good and I have sources for pretty much everything he's using.

I don't really get how the public worker threatening suicide is supposed to help the cause. The political/economic machine in which the public workers have ensconced themselves is what is helping to bankrupt the country, along with the corrupt politicians.

The thing is, if you want to ignore the human part of this tragedy, that while the media would be all over such a story under normal circumstances, it was untouched here because of fears of a public outburst, which showcases the extend to which the media are controlled.

 

[poisonelf]

I think he means Greeks should stop trying to rationalize and blame others for something that they caused.

Ah, Manos, I think I remember you being one of the staunchest blame-ers of Greece.

Try to keep in mind that this is a thread about the "riots" of February 12, not an attempt to explain the larger picture, what is happening socioeconomic-wise. I'm trying to get to that too.

If realizing the role of banks, speculators and political dynasties is "blaming others", then quite a lot of media seem to be doing it as well as of late. Stay tuned I guess.

 

[Wazzim]

I think he means Greeks should stop trying to rationalize and blame others for something that they caused.

Why shouldn't we blame scammers like Goldman Sachs too? Because they have nice credit cards and tv commercials?

The Greek government, the Greek people, European Union ánd Goldman Sachs (and other banks) are to blame.
Yet only the Greek people have to pay. Doesn't that seem a little...unethical? Let the alone economically dumb thing to do.

 

[ksan]

I'll be damned... I thought I was alone in trying to inform about what's happening here through informal media A friend just sent me this:

http://9gag.com/gag/2681884

I generally avoid 9gag, reddit taught me to really hate rage comics. But this is surprisingly very well informed, even though I do disagree with small parts of it. There's lots of information crammed in there.

There are obviously no sources, so I'm not in any way "using" this as part of my posts, but it's actually good and I have sources for pretty much everything he's using.

What a load of shit of shit that comic was. I'm glad that you understood that the rage comic part and the no sources part was bad, but there what the fuck at arguments like "The Greek metro in Athens was built by a German company!".
Populism hooray?