• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Greek "riots" - struggle for revolution, February 12

Status
Not open for further replies.

poisonelf

Member
What a load of shit of shit that comic was. I'm glad that you understood that the rage comic part and the no sources part was bad, but there what the fuck at arguments like "The Greek metro in Athens was built by a German company!".
Populism hooray?

Well I agree that this argument is totally meaningless and stupid. I didn't even notice it to be honest.

But if you can look past the rage comic shit, it's not as stupid (the arguments) as you may think. I went through it again, and other than the metro part the arguments mostly stand.

I'd personally never use the whole "wars we've been through" part. While true I prefer to leave the past behind.
The only part of the past still actually haunting us, which he doesn't mention, is the occupational debt the Nazis took (not reparations, that's another issue). Greece STILL pays for this.

Anyway, I didn't make that comic, but if you want sources about the claims I can find for most I think.
 

Mato

Member
I can't even understand what you're trying to say... First off I'm 34, I'm a business owner after going through various jobs, I've studied social sciences in an American college, and I'm currently studying Greek Civilization in the Greek Open University.

Can you please use facts and sources and tell me what you actually mean? I know there are still Greeks under absolute self-blame, some misinformed, others guilty being 'komatoskila' and having been part of the corruption, others simply disgusted with various attitudes around them. Really... what do you mean?

What's with the victim mentality in all of your posts? And who in the world put it in your head that we need a revolution or a war? We don't need to discover America, just use common sense to find sustainable balance. If people didn't like all of it they should have ended it when it mattered, years ago. Now they'll have to stop and think what they did, for the reason behind our ill luck lies in the countless little things all Greeks did to proactively support the corrupted system, instead of punishing it. Is the cause of our problems really something or someone else, and are we truly powerless to change the state of things with peaceful means? I firmly believe we can turn this around only when we change ourselves, and lasting change comes only through education. Injustice and ignorance that emanates from within people is our ultimate problem and that's what needs to change, regardless of the social class people are part of.

And to clarify: I have never voted for any of the two main political parties and have never been rich in my life. But I've always been dissatisfied with life in Greece because of it's people.
 

Alucrid

Banned
Ah, Manos, I think I remember you being one of the staunchest blame-ers of Greece.

Try to keep in mind that this is a thread about the "riots" of February 12, not an attempt to explain the larger picture, what is happening socioeconomic-wise. I'm trying to get to that too.

If realizing the role of banks, speculators and political dynasties is "blaming others", then quite a lot of media seem to be doing it as well as of late. Stay tuned I guess.
I don't see how you. Can separate these riots from the larger economic picture that they stem from.
 
Why are the international banks to blame if they lent money to Greece on the assumption that Greece's financial books were accurate? When I purchase 100k USD in Greek bonds on the assumption their financial statements are accurate (and if they were let into the Euro, it would seem to be a safe assumption that they are accurate), how is it my fault that your government employees were lying/incompetent? I want my return on investment, and I'm not giving you anymore money until I know exactly how much debt your country has. Is it really that hard to determine how much debt there is and where it came from? It just seems like a huge clusterfuck. There needs to be outsiders involved in cleaning up this mess because clearly the Greek insiders have no clue what they are doing, and you aren't going to get anymore of my money until I am confident that there are competent people taking care of Greece's financials.
 

BobsRevenge

I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
Why shouldn't we blame scammers like Goldman Sachs too? Because they have nice credit cards and tv commercials?

The Greek government, the Greek people, European Union ánd Goldman Sachs (and other banks) are to blame.
Yet only the Greek people have to pay. Doesn't that seem a little...unethical? Let the alone economically dumb thing to do.

Dude, they STILL allow predatory lending on Greece. Loans with short-term gains in mind that do harm to the economy. It's been curbed, but it's still happening.

So goddamn tired of banks getting preference over people. Economies are there to serve people, and when you run into a situation like Greece it's better to have sympathy for the impoverished than the rich people who're able to save their own asses and leave because they have the monetarily provided right to access those channels. Poor people don't have a way out.

It's transparently immoral. Banks have to be reigned in so that they serve people and help economies grow for everyone. The American banking and insurance system especially has done a wonderful job of looting its people, and the people of other nations. It's like America's current most successful industry is grifting at home and abroad, and they don't want to share.
 

poisonelf

Member
What's with the victim mentality in all of your posts? And who in the world put it in your head that we need a revolution or a war? We don't need to discover America, just use common sense to find sustainable balance. If people didn't like all of it they should have ended it when it mattered, years ago. Now they'll have to stop and think what they did, for the reason behind our ill luck lies in the countless little things all Greeks did to proactively support the corrupted system, instead of punishing it. Is the cause of our problems really something or someone else, and are we truly powerless to change the state of things with peaceful means? I firmly believe we can turn this around only when we change ourselves, and lasting change comes only through education. Injustice and ignorance that emanates from within people is our ultimate problem and that's what needs to change, regardless of the social class people are part of.

And to clarify: I have never voted for any of the two main political parties and have never been rich in my life. But I've always been dissatisfied with life in Greece because of it's people.

The victim mentality stems from the way most media portray Greeks and the misinformation used, regarding being lazy or retiring early. If you still haven't discovered what total myths these are, go through my post history or just google it.
It stems from being told off every other day in online forums, games, articles.
And ultimately it stems from seeing friends thrown into unemployment, depression, and poverty.

Perhaps you're too young, perhaps you dislike your country too much to care, I personally see it everyday. And I'm proud to not be a victim yet because I run my business well, but I know it's around the corner.

As for the revolution part, well it would seem quite a lot of Greek people also agree. Why? Being Greek you know the government is unelected, you know everyone hates current politicians with a passion, all it takes is passing comment anywhere and everyone explodes. Do you see them leaving by themselves? Do you see the younger generation being brought up better under the same leaders?

Anyway, you wallow in dissatisfaction with your fellow countrymen, I prefer to stay positive and try to inform and change things.

We agree on one thing, I also think we can bring things around.

And also for the record, I never voted for the two political parties that ravaged this society as well.
 
Perhaps if your politicians are ignoring your concerns it is time for you to start murdering them? When do you think it will come to that?

you think these protests are a giant party saying "hey guys keep being who you are, best wishes xoxo - signed, ο λαος τις Ελλάδας (the people of greece but correct me if i'm wrong lolol)"

?
 

Just study the oil (financed) loans to developing counties in the 1980s.

All a massive ploy to get these countries on huge debt that they must repay (interest) forever, all while ensuring their economeis cant compete with the "chosen" ones.


And yeah, Greece has been made out to be a giant tax-evasion eternal-vacation scheme by the workers, but if you look at the actual data, their productivity was pretty damn good comapred to elsewhere.

Think of this like "cracking down on unions" but the union is the entire country.

The crackdown won't help the people (thats what the union did!) the crackdown helps the 1% that can loan money and get an eternal recurring interest paycheck.
 

Wazzim

Banned
Why are the international banks to blame if they lent money to Greece on the assumption that Greece's financial books were accurate? When I purchase 100k USD in Greek bonds on the assumption their financial statements are accurate (and if they were let into the Euro, it would seem to be a safe assumption that they are accurate), how is it my fault that your government employees were lying/incompetent? I want my return on investment, and I'm not giving you anymore money until I know exactly how much debt your country has. Is it really that hard to determine how much debt there is and where it came from? It just seems like a huge clusterfuck. There needs to be outsiders involved in cleaning up this mess because clearly the Greek insiders have no clue what they are doing, and you aren't going to get anymore of my money until I am confident that there are competent people taking care of Greece's financials.

International banks worked together with the Greek government when they faked financial reports about lending.


signed, ο λαος τις Ελλάδας (the people of greece but correct me if i'm wrong lolol)"
I don't think τις is necessary in that sentence but I only know ancient Greek so yeah lol. ο λαος and Ελλάδας should mean 'the greek people' anyway.
 
Are there any articles floating around that summarize how exactly European banks have been screwing over the Greeks over the past several years? Alpha-bromega's earlier post hinted at it, and I'd love to know more.
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Just study the oil (financed) loans to developing counties in the 1980s.

All a massive ploy to get these countries on huge debt that they must repay (interest) forever, all while ensuring their economeis cant compete with the "chosen" ones.


And yeah, Greece has been made out to be a giant tax-evasion eternal-vacation scheme by the workers, but if you look at the actual data, their productivity was pretty damn good comapred to elsewhere.

Think of this like "cracking down on unions" but the union is the entire country.

The crackdown won't help the people (thats what the union did!) the crackdown helps the 1% that can loan money and get an eternal recurring interest paycheck.

You are confusing work hours with productivity. Greeks work long hours, but their productivity is not pretty damn good as you put it. Greece's government is run like shit and so is its business community.
 
International banks worked together with the Greek government when they faked financial reports about lending.

So the banks knew the financials were faked... then why did they panic and shut off the tap after a few years of lending as if the financials were ok? Or was it only a few banks who helped the Greeks cook the books, so these banks profited in the short term and got out before everyone else realized what was going on?

you think these protests are a giant party saying "hey guys keep being who you are, best wishes xoxo - signed, ο λαος τις Ελλάδας (the people of greece but correct me if i'm wrong lolol)"

?
Judging from the news and the pictures in this thread, most of the damage has been at the expense of local business owners, not the banks or politicians. I am just wondering how long it will take before you overthrow your government.
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
So the banks knew the financials were faked... then why did they panic and shut off the tap after a few years of lending as if the financials were ok? Or was it only a few banks who helped the Greeks cook the books, so these banks profited in the short term and got out before everyone else realized what was going on?

They only panicked when the castle crumbled to the ground. Only a few banks helped to cook the books (and they got away scot free), but everyone and his mother knew that Greece's economy was pure fantasy.
 
They only panicked when the castle crumbled to the ground. Only a few banks helped to cook the books (and they got away scot free), but everyone and his mother knew that Greece's economy was pure fantasy.

So everyone knew investing in the Greek economy was a Ponzi scheme, and the reason this crisis occured is because a few key players stopped contributing to the scheme and everyone else realized the end was nigh?

e: and why were they let into the Euro if the rest of Europe knew they were so volatile? I thought they were let in only after they started showing better financials.
 
So everyone knew investing in the Greek economy was a Ponzi scheme, and the reason this crisis occured is because a few key players stopped contributing to the scheme and everyone else realized the end was nigh?

yea pretty much. that'd make a greek pretty angry when he's having to pay for the bullshit of international scammers

e: and why were they let into the Euro if the rest of Europe knew they were so volatile? I thought they were let in only after they started showing better financials.

as said, the financials appeared good with the help of seedy officials and bankers
 

BeesEight

Member
Dude, they STILL allow predatory lending on Greece. Loans with short-term gains in mind that do harm to the economy. It's been curbed, but it's still happening.

So goddamn tired of banks getting preference over people. Economies are there to serve people, and when you run into a situation like Greece it's better to have sympathy for the impoverished than the rich people who're able to save their own asses and leave because they have the monetarily provided right to access those channels. Poor people don't have a way out.

It's transparently immoral. Banks have to be reigned in so that they serve people and help economies grow for everyone. The American banking and insurance system especially has done a wonderful job of looting its people, and the people of other nations. It's like America's current most successful industry is grifting at home and abroad, and they don't want to share.

It still surprises me how many countries don't have proper regulations on their banks. One of the reasons my country has been weathering this downturn in the economy so well was that we didn't allow the sort of practices that caused the huge bubble burst in America. I suppose with greater regulations you decrease overall profits but I would rather have security over profitability.

On the other hand...

I can't help but feel one reason for trying to protect the Greek banks has to deal with the general Euro. I admit, I don't understand the economic structure there, but I was under the impression that if Greece folds, it could cause a cascading effect across the entire EU. If that is true, I can understand taking a more cautious approach to prevent a continental or even global wide collapse in the markets. If we were on the edge of something dramatic like the Great Depression, then perhaps treating it carefully would be more in order. Unfortunately, modern banking doesn't work in isolation and it appears that the Greek ones could have a truly greater reach than just the borders of one country.

Honestly, I don't see any clear solution to this problem. It seems this stems from years of corruption in the Greek government. So you can't just hand the money over them for who is to say they won't mishandle the relief now? And then there's the protesting by the people. How do you invest in improving the economic grounds of the country when you can't even be assured that any changes you work out with the government will be supported by the people? Once again, if the bailout goes into the hands of the Greek government and they get overthrown then what?

I feel it's really counterproductive to look for enemies where there aren't any. Claiming that Germany is just seeking to indenture an entire country will not help the situation. There needs to be some measure of goodwill sent out from some party. But no one seems to want to listen to the others and any chance at a beneficial solution seems to be quickly evaporating.

To me, it seems there's just too much focus on pointing fingers than working on solutions.
 

poisonelf

Member
Regarding whether the average Greek is to blame for everything or whether a caste of politicians and bankers preyed on the population, I need to use some important historical data from another thread I dug up.
I actually managed to find PDFs of the '47 copy of the magazine where the article was printed, thank god for the internet. I really wanted to find the source because even I found it hard to believe such conspiracy-like claims.

While it goes back decades it perfectly showcases the basis on which the modern Greek state was founded:

Paul Porter was sent by Truman to assess the situation in Greece. That was the beginning of US aid to Greece and Turkey.

From the Porter Report, officially sent by Truman to assess the socioeconomic situation, during 1947, about Greece:

"There exists a wide disparity in
the living standards and income throughout all Greece. Traders, speculators
and black marketeers thrive in wealth and luxury, a problem with which
no government has effectively dealt. At the same time, the masses of
people live on a bare subsistence.
There is a vast amount of concealed
unemployment with some 20% of the population employed by or partially
dependent upon the state. The sub-standard levels of existence of the civil
servants, indigents, pensioneers and other dependents is an important contributory
factor to the political and social tension which characterizes Greece
today. No government since Liberation has made any plans to provide
useful work for the employables among this large group of the population."

http://thesis.haverford.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/10066/5245/Kariotis_6_4.pdf?sequence=1

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/hstpaper/porterpr.htm

From Collier's Magazine:

So far as I could see, the Greek government
had no effective policy except to
plead for foreign aid to keep itself in
power, loudly citing Greece's wartime
sacrifices and its own king-size anti-
Communism as reasons for granting the
foreign aid in unlimited quantities. It
intends, in my judgment, to use foreign
aid as a way of perpetuating the privileges
of a small banking and commercial
clique which constitutes the invisible
power in Greece.

http://www.unz.org/Pub/Colliers-1947sep20-00103?View=PDF&apages=0106

So perhaps "blaming others" is not so crazy. This same system has been kept in power until today.

I'll obviously be using more up to date material when I manage to finish the post about the situation formed here, but I find the Porter report and article to be amazing about how powerful elites have been running Greece.
 

BobsRevenge

I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
So the banks knew the financials were faked... then why did they panic and shut off the tap after a few years of lending as if the financials were ok? Or was it only a few banks who helped the Greeks cook the books, so these banks profited in the short term and got out before everyone else realized what was going on?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN2OjxxI_Oo&feature=related

Derivatives and credit default swaps bro. Banks like Goldman Sachs were(are) literally betting on Greece's failure and making cash-money off of it.
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
So everyone knew investing in the Greek economy was a Ponzi scheme, and the reason this crisis occured is because a few key players stopped contributing to the scheme and everyone else realized the end was nigh?

Kind of. Greece's tale is one of unabridged greed. The government knew their economy was in tatters and so did its populace, the rest of the European Union and the banks, but nobody gave a shit since they thought that they could make it last forever. At worst, it could become some kind of client state while profiting from it. Then, the entire world was shocked by America's crisis and everybody panicked.

yea pretty much. that'd make a greek pretty angry when he's having to pay for the bullshit of international scammers



as said, the financials appeared good with the help of seedy officials and bankers
Anybody making business in Greece could tell you that the country was not up to EU standards almost a decade after joining the euro.
 

Wazzim

Banned
So the banks knew the financials were faked... then why did they panic and shut off the tap after a few years of lending as if the financials were ok? Or was it only a few banks who helped the Greeks cook the books, so these banks profited in the short term and got out before everyone else realized what was going on?

AFAIK They didn't panic initially, the individual investors did. They did not know about the corruption and thought everything was just fine. Some banks probably bailed out then and others expected them to be bailed out and hope to profit from the higher interest (that's why the establishment is so eager to 'help' Greece).
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
AFAIK They didn't panic initially, the individual investors did. They did not know about the corruption and thought everything was just fine. Some banks probably bailed out then and others expected them to be bailed out and hope to profit from the higher interest (that's why the establishment is so eager to 'help' Greece).

Some weren't completely aware of how big this could turn out to be (myself included, there is no reason to lie) and thought that Greece could be rescued. But then the cards began to fall in Ireland and Portugal, and suddenly it became even more aparent that Greece was in deep fucking shit. At that moment everybody ran for their lives.

It is not unlike the housing bubble that has been ravaging Spain for over four years; everybody knew that something was amiss, but they thought that things could keep going or misunderestimated the consecuences.
 
Dude, they STILL allow predatory lending on Greece. Loans with short-term gains in mind that do harm to the economy. It's been curbed, but it's still happening.

What you are calling a "predatory loan" from your perspective, from the lender's perspective is a "high-risk loan," isn't it?

Don't blame the lenders, blame the people taking out the loans.
 
Why are the international banks to blame if they lent money to Greece on the assumption that Greece's financial books were accurate? When I purchase 100k USD in Greek bonds on the assumption their financial statements are accurate (and if they were let into the Euro, it would seem to be a safe assumption that they are accurate), how is it my fault that your government employees were lying/incompetent? I want my return on investment, and I'm not giving you anymore money until I know exactly how much debt your country has. Is it really that hard to determine how much debt there is and where it came from? It just seems like a huge clusterfuck. There needs to be outsiders involved in cleaning up this mess because clearly the Greek insiders have no clue what they are doing, and you aren't going to get anymore of my money until I am confident that there are competent people taking care of Greece's financials.

Goldman Sachs helped the Greek government to mask the true extent of its deficit with the help of a derivatives deal that legally circumvented the EU Maastricht deficit rules. At some point the so-called cross currency swaps will mature, and swell the country's already bloated deficit.

Now, though, it looks like the Greek figure jugglers have been even more brazen than was previously thought. "Around 2002 in particular, various investment banks offered complex financial products with which governments could push part of their liabilities into the future," one insider recalled, adding that Mediterranean countries had snapped up such products.

Greece's debt managers agreed a huge deal with the savvy bankers of US investment bank Goldman Sachs at the start of 2002. The deal involved so-called cross-currency swaps in which government debt issued in dollars and yen was swapped for euro debt for a certain period -- to be exchanged back into the original currencies at a later date.

Such transactions are part of normal government refinancing. Europe's governments obtain funds from investors around the world by issuing bonds in yen, dollar or Swiss francs. But they need euros to pay their daily bills. Years later the bonds are repaid in the original foreign denominations.

But in the Greek case the US bankers devised a special kind of swap with fictional exchange rates. That enabled Greece to receive a far higher sum than the actual euro market value of 10 billion dollars or yen. In that way Goldman Sachs secretly arranged additional credit of up to $1 billion for the Greeks.

This credit disguised as a swap didn't show up in the Greek debt statistics. Eurostat's reporting rules don't comprehensively record transactions involving financial derivatives. "The Maastricht rules can be circumvented quite legally through swaps," says a German derivatives dealer.

In previous years, Italy used a similar trick to mask its true debt with the help of a different US bank. In 2002 the Greek deficit amounted to 1.2 percent of GDP. After Eurostat reviewed the data in September 2004, the ratio had to be revised up to 3.7 percent. According to today's records, it stands at 5.2 percent.

At some point Greece will have to pay up for its swap transactions, and that will impact its deficit. The bond maturities range between 10 and 15 years. Goldman Sachs charged a hefty commission for the deal and sold the swaps on to a Greek bank in 2005.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,676634,00.html

Bets by some of the same banks that helped Greece shroud its mounting debts may actually now be pushing the nation closer to the brink of financial ruin.
Echoing the kind of trades that nearly toppled the American International Group, the increasingly popular insurance against the risk of a Greek default is making it harder for Athens to raise the money it needs to pay its bills, according to traders and money managers.

These contracts, known as credit-default swaps, effectively let banks and hedge funds wager on the financial equivalent of a four-alarm fire: a default by a company or, in the case of Greece, an entire country. If Greece reneges on its debts, traders who own these swaps stand to profit.

“It’s like buying fire insurance on your neighbor’s house — you create an incentive to burn down the house,”
said Philip Gisdakis, head of credit strategy at UniCredit in Munich.

As Greece’s financial condition has worsened, undermining the euro, the role of Goldman Sachs and other major banks in masking the true extent of the country’s problems has drawn criticism from European leaders. But even before that issue became apparent, a little-known company backed by Goldman, JP Morgan Chase and about a dozen other banks had created an index that enabled market players to bet on whether Greece and other European nations would go bust.

Last September, the company, the Markit Group of London, introduced the iTraxx SovX Western Europe index, which is based on such swaps and let traders gamble on Greece shortly before the crisis. Such derivatives have assumed an outsize role in Europe’s debt crisis, as traders focus on their daily gyrations.

A result, some traders say, is a vicious circle. As banks and others rush into these swaps, the cost of insuring Greece’s debt rises. Alarmed by that bearish signal, bond investors then shun Greek bonds, making it harder for the country to borrow. That, in turn, adds to the anxiety — and the whole thing starts over again.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/25/b...l=1&adxnnlx=1329256970-v/OKKL5nbPXQ0eOAH1SNgg
 

BobsRevenge

I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
What you are calling a "predatory loan" from your perspective, from the lender's perspective is a "high-risk loan," isn't it?

It isn't high risk because obviously they're getting paid a significant portion regardless. They have the pull to make it happen. They knew they would. So yeah, it's blatantly predatory.

edit:
Don't blame the lenders, blame the people taking out the loans.

I'll blame the lenders for being dishonest with their creditors and knowingly working towards outcomes that are functionally equivalent to looting. I don't believe they are so incompetent that they couldn't predict these sorts of outcomes.
 

Mato

Member
Poisonelf if there is a concrete "elite clique" and not just a bunch of vaguely related rich people, I'd like to know some of their names and/or organizations they work for. Next time you should tell fellow protesters to put these people's names and faces on the banners so that Greeks like me get to know exactly who to blame. Still, the existence of such a scheme doesn't explain why people acted like a bunch happy lap dogs for the last 40 years if they saw any wrong in it. They sure seemed to like it while it happened. Moreover they took pride in it.
 

poisonelf

Member

Wow, thank you for these. I've read the same things over and over but these are nice articles without going too technical.

Also, part of the big joke, is that the President of the Greek Central Bank responsible for all of the above was Lucas Papademos... the current banker-prime minister chosen and imposed upon us as the "technocrat who will bring salvation". Awesome.

He also 'happened' to be the financial adviser to George Papandreou, the infamous prime minister leading us straight to the TROIKA's warm hug.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=32577913&postcount=707 Check out the irony (or endless scams, however you prefer) regarding our current situation.
 

BobsRevenge

I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
Explain how a loan to Greece isn't high-risk again, please. I do not follow your logic.

Credit default swaps functionally allow them to turn their loans into bets that their loans will fail. It's one of the major factors in what caused America's economic crisis.
 
Credit default swaps functionally allow them to turn their loans into bets that their loans will fail. It's one of the major factors in what caused America's economic crisis.

Those derivatives aren't free. They cost the lender lots of money.

Listen to what you are saying... You are saying "It isn't high-risk, because they have insurance!"

That's ridiculous.

Building a home in a flood zone in an area where hurricanes are common is high-risk. That level of risk doesn't disappear just because you insure your home against flooding and hurricanes. It's still there, you just paid a shitload of money on top of the cost of the home to mitigate the potential effects of the risk.
 

BobsRevenge

I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
Those derivatives aren't free. They cost the lender lots of money.

Listen to what you are saying... You are saying "It isn't high-risk, because they have insurance!"

That's ridiculous.

Building a home in a flood zone in an area where hurricanes are common is high-risk. That level of risk doesn't disappear just because you insure your home against flooding and hurricanes. It's still there, you just paid a shitload of money on top of the cost of the home to mitigate the potential effects of the risk.

What? Of course it's less high-risk. It's insurance. That's how it functions. They get their money. If they know the creditor is going to default, and they get insurance for it, they get their money.
 
Wow, thank you for these. I've read the same things over and over but these are nice articles without going too technical.

Also, part of the big joke, is that the President of the Greek Central Bank responsible for all of the above was Lucas Papademos... the current banker-prime minister chosen and imposed upon us as the "technocrat who will bring salvation". Awesome.

The pillaging of financial and natural resources is a global conquest. I'm in the U.S., but we're all facing the same situation. We have corporations running our government, leveraging the populace to produce greater profits for the banking sector.

Those derivatives aren't free. They cost the lender lots of money.

Listen to what you are saying... You are saying "It isn't high-risk, because they have insurance!"

That's ridiculous.

Building a home in a flood zone in an area where hurricanes are common is high-risk. That level of risk doesn't disappear just because you insure your home against flooding and hurricanes. It's still there, you just paid a shitload of money on top of the cost of the home to mitigate the potential effects of the risk.

Your analogy is missing the part where you sell the house to someone else without telling them that they are going to be living in a flood zone or that you took out an insurance policy on their house. Because that's what these banks did.
 

LJ11

Member
What? Of course it's less high-risk. It's insurance. That's how it functions. They get their money. If they know the creditor is going to default, and they get insurance for it, they get their money.

What you're proposing is a negative basis trade. You basically earn a risk free rate of return if the interest on the bond is more than the cost of wrapping the bond with a CDS. You earn the difference between the bond payout and what you pay for a CDS.

When markets are functioning properly this trade shouldn't exist for very long, because everyone would buy up the bond which would decrease the interest rate, increased CDS purchases would increase the "insurance" rate and the profit would disappear.

It all depends on the Z-spread. Plenty of banks got into the negative basis game, you could bank gains, and thus bonuses, quickly since it was a risk free rate. But they forgot the part where they took out loans/repos to gear the trades and earn bigger profits. Risk free trade made risky.
 
Goverment pulled the same trickery with "masked hoologians" here in Serbia on numerous occasions, during anti-goverment rallies, using it as a method to surpress pro-national movements and use as munition against nationalistic parties. With the support of media, which they largely control, despite calling for "freedom of the press", they have largely succedeed in this. The situation in Greece is really tragic and its people has my sympathies.
 
Bill Mitchell on the Greek elite's decision to "eat its children" with austerity instead of exiting the EU, restoring its own currency, paying its debts in its new currency, and moving on in (relatively) short order:

[T]he real bonus that an exit would bring is that the Greek government could unambiguously concentrate on a domestic growth strategy and put an end to its recession.

The last four years have brought the need for some reforms – to the taxation and pension system – into relief. Within a growth context, the Greek government would probably have a better chance of brokering these changes with its population than under the current conditions which are fermenting total social breakdown and open rebellion.

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=18172

In the meantime, I wish the Greeks well in their revolution.
 

poisonelf

Member
A new article on CNN:

The situation seems to be as grave as it has been. On the one-hand the eurozone nations are playing hardball while back in Greece, there is instability, poverty and the destruction of the economy. But is the eurozone demanding too much? If Greece sinks into riot and rebellion, will we look back on this time as being an error in history because, even for understandable reasons, the Europeans pushed too hard?

Comparisons can be made with the Versailles Treaty and the way Germany was treated after World War I. Hefty reparations and a humiliating defeat were heaped on the country. It all ultimately led to such resentment and anger that the seeds were sewn for the nationalism which followed. In Greece's case there are the years of debt burden on future generations, the humiliation of making elected politicians sign pledges to other European governments and ultimately the destruction of a way of life (albeit unsustainable) that is precious. I don't think I can push the analogy much further though. Greece hasn't had territorial appropriations or restrictions on its military.

But the point remains. What some in Greece are calling the "German boot" on their throat is stoking up a level of nationalist fervor and resentment that, if not careful, the Europeans may literally push too far.

http://business.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/15/greece-2012-versailles-1919/

While not about the specific "riots" it touches on the subject of why there is resentment towards Germany that some people asked, albeit it doesn't explain much. It's not only the harsh, life-changing and in some cases life-destroying measures. It's a humiliating, insulting behavior adopted for reasons I honestly cannot comprehend. I'll be making the post on that issue perhaps today.

I'm relieved and hopeful about the fact that tens of media outlets that have so far been upholding the "thieving, lazy Greek" racist myth have started publishing articles on the actual situation of a country being destroyed by Europe's unbelievable support for the banks.

The article compares to 1919 but to me a greater irony lies in the 50s. Germany ceased payments of debt, declaring a national emergency state. A deal was reached in which Europe wrote off a huge part of the debt to help the German people and so that Germany can be rebuilt. Greece was one of the countries accepting that deal.

EDIT: Article from Guardian:

'Shame on Europe for betraying Greece'

The "austerity package", as the newspapers like to call it, seeks to impose on Greece terms that no people can accept. Even now the schools are running out of books. There were 40% cuts in the public health budget in 2010 – I can't find the present figure. Greece's EU "partners" are demanding a 32% cut in the minimum wage for those under 25, a 22% cut for the over 25s. Already unemployment for 15-24-year-olds is 48% – it will have risen considerably since then. Overall unemployment has increased to over 20%. The sacking of public sector workers will add to it. The recession predicted to follow the imposition of the package will cause unbearable levels of unemployment at every level.

In addition the "package" demands cuts to pensions and public service pay, wholesale privatisation of state assets – a fire-sale, since the global market is close to rock bottom – and cuts to public services including health, social welfare and education. The whole to be supervised by people other than the Greeks. An entire disciplinary and punishment system.

When we casually use a term like "bailout", it is important to remember that it is not people who are being bailed out, or at least not the Greek people. The bailout will not save a single Greek life. The opposite is the case. What is being "bailed out" is the global financial system, including the banks, hedge funds and pension funds of the other EU member states, and it is the Greek people who are being ordered to pay – in money, time, physical pain, hopelessness and missed educational opportunities. The relatively neutral, even stoic, term "austerity", is a gross insult to the Greek people. This is not austerity; at best it is callousness.

...

Now we see capitalism at its most triumphant. Greek police beat Greek people in order to impose the will of the banks and hedge funds. The EU member states, including Ireland, are the middleman, the quislings of capital. Rather than reach out a hand of solidarity, we say, "better them than us". As if the global markets will choose to pass on Ireland once Greece has been destroyed. Solidarity is not just compassion for one's fellow man; it is also materialist self-interest. One for all and all for one. We stand or fall together. There is strength in unity.

Instead we have decided to sacrifice the Greek people to the market in the hope that our sacrifice will appease the gods of speculation. We condemn them to misery and poverty to keep Standard & Poor's off our backs.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...traying-greece?cat=commentisfree&type=article
 
The Dutch public tv had a documentary about Goldman Sachs and Greece yesterday. Can be seen here: http://tegenlicht.vpro.nl/afleverin...Sachs-en-de-vernietiging-van-Griekenland.html (although im not sure if its perhaps region locked). Its mostly in English, and a dude over at the something awful forums gave a translation of the few parts that were in Greek with Dutch subtitles:

33 minutes in, in the pharmacy: The insurance firms that pay the pharmacies all have liquidity problems. So they don't pay them any more. Patients pay 25% of the price of the medicine and it used to be that the insurance firms would pay the rest. Seeing as these firms haven't paid the pharmacy in six to seven months, they can't buy anything on credit themselves any more. The pharmaceutical companies that supplied hospitals, used to be paid in government bonds. These are worth less than half of what they used to be worth. If the pharmacist wants to order drugs, he has to pay in advance.

He then tells an anecdote of a woman who came into his pharmacy around Christmas. Her husband had cancer and the drug she needed cost €1700. Normally, she could've bought this drug in a hospital at a lower price, but seeing as hospitals don't pay the pharmaceutical companies in cash, she has to find a pharmacist that can buy the drug in question. The pharmacist called the company that produces the drug and is told he just has to send them €1700 - which the woman doesn't have. So, he ends up paying it out of pocket just so her husband could survive the holidays at least. I'm guessing most pharmacists can't be that generous.

Around 39 minutes in, we see Sofia Andrikopoulou. She and her husband are unemployed - there are no jobs - and they're uninsured. They have no income. They live on spaghetti, milk and rice. In two months, their electricity and water will probably be cut off. That day, this family of four had €3 euro to spend. Her husband, George, started a company back in 2000. It ran into trouble around 2002 and they were faced with an €11.500 fine. They obviously can't pay this fine and can expect no help from any government agency. In fact, they were told people like them were the cause of the financial straits Greece is in and jailtime looms.

So yeah, while people are talking about 'lazy Greeks' and poor bankers who are losing money, people are literally dying because of this shit.
 
In the meantime, I wish the Greeks well in their revolution.


You mean in their rioting that will lead to nothing?

Calling this a revolution is pretty bad joke to people who have actually fought to overthrow oppression and tyranny.

So yeah, while people are talking about 'lazy Greeks' and poor bankers who are losing money, people are literally dying because of this shit.

Seems more like the husband did something illegal to get and 11.5 Euro fine.
 

poisonelf

Member
You mean in their rioting that will lead to nothing?

Calling this a revolution is pretty bad joke to people who have actually fought to overthrow oppression and tyranny.

Personally I called it struggle for a revolution because we're not there yet.

For everything else I know there is no point in arguing with you. Your tendency to absolutely ignore facts and sources and to be so apathetic to suffering would have led me to believe you're a troll having fun, but I remember from other threads that's simply who you are.
 

_Xenon_

Banned
To people saying austerity won't work ... what's the alternative? let them default and go back to drachma? Default means they still have to pay their debt and they will have a harder time to borrow. For a country that runs huge trade deficit (for every Euro Greece exports it imports 3 Euros), a weak currency and a bad credit will basically kill it. Believe it or not, stay in the Euro zone and keep exploiting the Euro is just better for them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom