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[Smash]

Here.

Virtually every media form studied provides ample evidence of the sexualization of women, including television, music videos, music lyrics, movies, magazines, sports media, video games, the Internet and advertising (e.g., Gow, 1996; Grauerholz & King, 1997; Krassas, Blauwkamp,& Wesselink, 2001, 2003; Lin, 1997; Plous & Neptune, 1997; Vincent, 1989; Ward, 1995). Some studies have examined forms of media that are especially popular with children and adolescents, such as video games and teen-focused magazines.

In study after study, findings have indicated that women more often than men are portrayed in a sexual manner (e.g., dressed in revealing clothing, with bodily postures or facial expressions that imply sexual readiness) and are objectified (e.g., used as a decorative object, or as body parts rather than a whole person). In addition, a narrow (and unrealistic) standard of physical beauty is heavily emphasized. These are the models of femininity presented for young girls to study and emulate.

In some studies, the focus was on the sexualization of female characters across all ages, but most focused specifically on young adult women. Although few studies examined the prevalence of sexualized portrayals of girls in particular, those that have been conducted found that such sexualization does occur and may be increasingly common. For example, O’Donohue, Gold and McKay (1997) coded advertisements over a 40-year period in five magazines targeted to men, women or a general adult readership. Although relatively few (1.5 percent) of the ads portrayed children in a sexualized manner, of those that did, 85 percent sexualized girls rather than boys. Furthermore, the percentage of sexualizing ads increased over time.​

And here.

“Sexualized portrayals of women have been found to legitimize or exacerbate violence against women and girls, as well as sexual harassment and anti-women attitudes among men and boys,” Hatton says. “Such images also have been shown to increase rates of body dissatisfaction and/or eating disorders among men, women and girls; and they have even been shown to decrease sexual satisfaction among both men and women.”​

Both of these studies do not prove any causation or even correlation between sexual violence and sexualization of women.

 

[The Librarian]

I give up.

 

[Smash]

I give up.

You should, the studies you posted studied exclusively the sexualization of women in media and had nothing to do with sexual violence.

 

[Scrabble]

I'm not playing dumb. The culture surrounding those women objectifies them and yes, their clothing is part of it. Not covering up is used as an excuse for it to be okay for random men to harass women on the street. In making women cover up because otherwise she'll be too sexual, you are making her a sexual object.

This thread isn't about all the other issues that are part of this problem. But I think to pretend that media and the way women are portrayed in society has nothing to do with the way they are treated is short sighted.

I never said anything to the contrary, in fact your making my argument for me. How is both the sexualiation of women in media; ie big boobs, skimpy clothing, etc and the undersexualization of women in the middle east both contributing to the same thing? You can't have it both ways, and the fact that women's issues in the middle east are on a level of magnitude higher in scale than what we can even begin to imagine or relate to only highlights the fallacy in your argument. Not to mention stories like this

http://shine.yahoo.com/work-money/iranian-politician-deemed-too-pretty-to-hold-office-181459345.html

also highlight this absurd notion that sexualization in media is condemning to women, when in parts of the world women are being disqualified from running for office on the grounds that dudes are having trouble not jizzing in their pants if they as so much as see a women's face.

Actually, yes, a lot of masculine studies do point towards problematic depictions of masculinity in media.

So where then is all the outrage when the newest video game featuring the latest most baddest 'badass' dude comes out? Why aren't those conversations happening? Oh yea because "power fantasy" "power fantasy" "power fantasy", because your a MAN and your supposed to feel empowered and be all into this because that's all men can be. Whenever masculine studies, or any male driven issue, do come up in the conversation when dealing with self esteem issues, depression, etc among boys it's often met with "lol quit being such a pussy and man up."

 

[Pau]

I never said anything to the contrary, in fact your making my argument for me. How is both the sexualiation of women in media; ie big boobs, skimpy clothing, etc and the undersexualization of women in the middle east both contributing to the same thing? You can't have it both ways, and the fact that women's issues in the middle east are on a level of magnitude higher in scale than what we can even begin to imagine or relate to only highlights the fallacy in your argument. Not to mention stories like this

http://shine.yahoo.com/work-money/iranian-politician-deemed-too-pretty-to-hold-office-181459345.html

also highlight this absurd notion that sexualization in media is condemning to women, when in parts of the world women are being disqualified from running for office on the grounds that dudes are having trouble not jizzing in their pants if they as so much as see a women's face.

It's contributing to the same thing when it depicts women as only being sexual objects that exist for men. This isn't the oppression olympics where I'm saying one is worse than the other. It's possible to acknowledge problems across the world.

Hypersexualization of women has a lot of negative effects too. Not just adding to a culture that thinks its okay to sexually assault them, but stuff such as self esteem, eating disorders, etc.

You're assuming a lot about me, where I'm from, and what I can relate to, by the way.

So where then is all the outrage when the newest video game featuring the latest most baddest 'badass' dude comes out? Why aren't those conversations happening? Oh yea because "power fantasy" "power fantasy" "power fantasy", because your a MAN and your supposed to feel empowered and be all into this because that's all men can be. Whenever masculine studies, or any male driven issue, do come up in the conversation when dealing with self esteem issues, depression, etc among boys it's often met with "lol quit being such a pussy and man up."

I don't know, I don't tend to make threads. But when there is one about such things (typically in OT), you can bet I'm posting in them.

 

[Smash]

I never said anything to the contrary, in fact your making my argument for me. How is both the sexualiation of women in media; ie big boobs, skimpy clothing, etc and the undersexualization of women in the middle east both contributing to the same thing? You can't have it both ways, and the fact that women's issues in the middle east are on a level of magnitude higher in scale than what we can even begin to imagine or relate to only highlights the fallacy in your argument. Not to mention stories like this

http://shine.yahoo.com/work-money/iranian-politician-deemed-too-pretty-to-hold-office-181459345.html

also highlight this absurd notion that sexualization in media is condemning to women, when in parts of the world women are being disqualified from running for office on the grounds that dudes are having trouble not jizzing in their pants if they as so much as see a women's face.

It looks like only feminists know what's the proper amount of sexualization. Any divergence from their very specific directives is sexism and rape culture.

 

[Romars202129]

So where then is all the outrage when the newest video game featuring the latest most baddest 'badass' dude comes out? Why aren't those conversations happening? Oh yea because "power fantasy" "power fantasy" "power fantasy", because your a MAN and your supposed to feel empowered and be all into this because that's all men can be. Whenever masculine studies, or any male driven issue, do come up in the conversation when dealing with self esteem issues, depression, etc among boys it's often met with "lol quit being such a pussy and man up."

I don't think anyone seriously acknowledges something like that, in that it's not really the same as the female perspective.
I mean, yes, there's plenty of oversexualized males on the market. But there's hundreds of romantisized 'beta' males too. Name a female protagonist game, in which the woman isn't an ideolized form? Now name beta male pro games.
We have gta 5 coming up, which has both over weight, over the hill leads. The Kane and Lynch series, JRPGS also regularly feature a giant loser as the main, lol.
Not too many, sure. But they're there.
And non alpha/ pretty boy male characters are regularly features as celebrated side kicks. Whereas, women in games are almost 100% bikini models.

Spoiler

... or weird moe tropes[same thing though]

Not many overweight, dorky, old, or homely girls to speak of, even though we have an abundance or their male counterparts.

 

[Dude Abides]

I never said anything to the contrary, in fact your making my argument for me. How is both the sexualiation of women in media; ie big boobs, skimpy clothing, etc and the undersexualization of women in the middle east both contributing to the same thing?

Both suggest that women are primarily, or even solely, defined by their sexual availability. Not really hard to understand.

 

[BumblebeeCody]

I give up.

I generally agree with your posts. I saw your other posts on Star Trek thread and somewhere else(it's 2am so I'm not thinking too hard right now) but those studies don't show any direct link between the two. There are so many contributing factors as to what people do and whether it was directly related to seeing women semi-naked/sexualised.

It's hard to say who's doing what.
[Y'see]You can make a (valid) point that women are sexualised in the media. True
[but then again]But when you look at whos doing it (Britney Spears, Katy Perry, Lady Gaga etc) it's females doing it to their own gender. They set the standard for what is good looking and what can can't be shown.
[And then there's this]But this all plays back to female rights. Females should/are allowed to dress and advertise themselves the way they want. It's basic human rights. Saying that females are sexualised may be more of an insult and that being able to express yourself on a magazine cover is now bad...but it's also freedom
[but in the end] it comes down to the viewer. Men shouldn't take it upon themselves to harass. I'm more likely to punch someone for doing some of the crap I've seen people do in public(oddly, in America).

Basically, freedom of expression is now seen as sexulisation that only those who look to be offended can be only offended by. Women have the right to portray themselves how they want, but when they do, they're called out on.
Hard to make a stance and see who is right.

I have to add that this isn't me saying, "yes you should give up" but that this seems like a weaksauce article. I'm not trying to put down what is obviously good cause for rights.
Edit: I do put a lot of blame on media. Those young girl bullshit magazine and cosmetic adverts that say who women should look when I completely disagree with it.

 

[Pau]

Effects of exposure to sex-stereotyped video game characters on tolerance
of sexual harassment

Results indicate support for H1—that a short-term experimental
manipulation of exposure to media content (sex-typed images
versus professional images) altered judgments about sexual
harassment. Detailed analysis revealed that males who saw the
sex-typed images were most tolerant of sexual harassment when
judging a real-life case of sexual harassment between a female college student and her male professor. There was no experimental
support for H2 in that sex of subject was the only significant
variable in the full factorial analysis.

Nope, media has no effect at all on how people view sexual harassment.

 

[Cartman86]

I generally agree with your posts. I saw your other posts on Star Trek thread and somewhere else(it's 2am so I'm not thinking too hard right now) but those studies don't show any direct link between the two. There are so many contributing factors as to what people do and whether it was directly related to seeing women semi-naked/sexualised.

It's hard to say who's doing what.
[Y'see]You can make a (valid) point that women are sexualised in the media. True
[but then again]But when you look at whos doing it (Britney Spears, Katy Perry, Lady Gaga etc) it's females doing it to their own gender. They set the standard for what is good looking and what can can't be shown.
[And then there's this]But this all plays back to female rights. Females should/are allowed to dress and advertise themselves the way they want. It's basic human rights. Saying that females are sexualised may be more of an insult and that being able to express yourself on a magazine cover is now bad...but it's also freedom
[but in the end] it comes down to the viewer. Men shouldn't take it upon themselves to harass. I'm more likely to punch someone for doing some of the crap I've seen people do in public(oddly, in America).

Basically, freedom of expression is now seen as sexulisation that only those who look to be offended can be only offended by. Women have the right to portray themselves how they want, but when they do, they're called out on.
Hard to make a stance and see who is right.

I have to add that this isn't me saying, "yes you should give up" but that this seems like a weaksauce article. I'm not trying to put down what is obviously good cause for rights.

Ehhhh the people who are criticizing Quiet and the rest of the games industry are the ones who come to the defense of real life women who are shamed for wearing something others deem too sexy or whatever. The point is there is a particular woman that society has deemed as ideal. Very thin and often white. Being that isn't wrong. Pushing it as the dominant ideal representation is.

 

[Audioboxer]

Do you have any evidence to back this up? Considering how far we've come from the times women were dressed and depicted as this

http://www.enjoy-your-style.com/images/dresden.jpg

I'd say your statement is a little unfounded. And we can look to parts in the world where your statement most definitely falls apart when regarding the sexualization, or in these cases, the unsexualization of women.

Women being undersexualized

Haven't stopped absolutly horrific events like this

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/05/child-rape-victim-forced-marry-attacker-son_n_3875754.html

http://tribune.com.pk/story/593466/cut-into-pieces-she-challenged-gods-orders/

which have become so commonplace in these parts of the world.

The issue with sexual violence has nothing to do with the general sexualzation or the depiction of women, it has to do with assholes being assholes. And those assholes would have been assholes regardless of how women are sexually depicted in media. We have to look at the real root and cause as for why people do deplorable shit and fix those issues with our society, pointing to women being sexualized as a problem and cause for violence is just completely absurd and just does more harm than good. Not to mention it's pretty degrading to women who do flaunt their sexuality confidently who have to deal with this stigma of being objectified, used, part of the problem, giving in to societal demands, etc on a day to day basis.

On a related note to this post, very good video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mX3Bb5Bk34

On a related note to the game, nice looking character. I'm 26, a guy, I find the character pleasing on the eyes but I shall not judge the character till I see the story, and no, seeing these images does not want me to rape anyone or tell my GF she needs to get into better shape (I <3 her). I think the video games industry handles sex/nudity/the human body worse than unnecessarily strict religious parents do with their teenage kids. For the most part absolutely nobodies (not really aimed at GAF members, but immature journalists) standing on soap boxes screaming bloody murder if there is boobs, ass or any sort of sexualization. There's games for everyone, I'm sure a nice relaxing level of Mario will suit you just fine.

 

[Scrabble]

It's contributing to the same thing when it depicts women as only being sexual objects that exist for men. This isn't the oppression olympics where I'm saying one is worse than the other. It's possible to acknowledge problems across the world.

Hypersexualization of women has a lot of negative effects too. Not just adding to a culture that thinks its okay to sexually assault them, but stuff such as self esteem, eating disorders, etc.

You're assuming a lot about me, where I'm from, and what I can relate to, by the way.


I don't know, I don't tend to make threads. But when there is one about such things (typically in OT), you can bet I'm posting in them.

You've yet to provide any evidence that there is a correlation, and in the examples I've pointed out the exact opposite is true. Especially when studies like this

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162....-violence-against-women-fell-64-over-decade/

show violence against women have declined rapidly over the past decade, on top of declining more and more every decade before that in spite of sexualization and sexual expression increasing in the United States. And can we please not treat sexualization or sexual expression and women being sexual objects as the same thing?

 

[BumblebeeCody]

Effects of exposure to sex-stereotyped video game characters on tolerance
of sexual harassment



Nope, media has no effect at all on how people view sexual harassment.

Gonna have to read through that entire study tomorrow. But I think it's worth noting that those results are pretty worth taking into account.
Even if you have a result that shows "only 1 out of 100000 men who view sexual harassment didn't help the victim" it's still proof. It's a small statistic but it's proof. Enough proof to show that even a small percentage can be affected by the media they consume.

It's a completely fair point. Even a small percentage, even the slightest chance that there is direct link between the two means there is a problem and that Pau is right.

In the same way we all know violence in video games is an incredibly small percentage...it's still a small percentage that does have a real life impact and is worth looking into.
Edit: I direct that response to CraftySkills. Even the smallest percentage is still evidence that it's true.

 

[Romars202129]

Effects of exposure to sex-stereotyped video game characters on tolerance
of sexual harassment



Nope, media has no effect at all on how people view sexual harassment.

I believe in personal responsibility. So does the law.

 

[Demon Ice]

Even if you have a result that shows "only 1 out of 100000 men who view sexual harassment didn't help the victim" it's still proof. It's a small statistic but it's proof. Enough proof to show that even a small percentage can be affected by the media they consume.

Er, no. That's not how statistics works at all. Please look up the phrase "statistically significant" and then get back to us.

Also, the notion that "over-sexualization" of women leads to violence / rape against women ITT makes me sad. Stop making excuses for rapists, please, and stop with the blanket statements about how "men need to learn blah blah blah". Rapists are the scum of the earth, they are psychotic fucking animals, and the sooner you stop trying to find the reason in their action and make excuses for why they do what they do and instead accept that they are just shitty people, the better.

 

[BumblebeeCody]

Ehhhh the people who are criticizing Quiet and the rest of the games industry are the ones who come to the defense of real life women who are shamed for wearing something others deem too sexy or whatever. The point is there is a particular woman that society has deemed as ideal. Very thin and often white. Being that isn't wrong. Pushing it as the dominant ideal representation is.

True...sad but true.
It's hard to make a statement that seems fair.
There are females who hate the idea of what it means to be "good looking" and don't want those images being shown on magazines, so they rally against it which is essentially against everything females thought for(freedom).
As for Quiets design. I'm not offended by it like other people, I just honestly think it's a crap design. Based Kojima pls.

Er, no. That's not how statistics works at all.

I know, but don't you think it's still worth studying, even if there are real world effects. Even of the smallest? (That's my point). If there is a very small chance of media(in this case video games) have real world perceptions and actions on females(even in an extremely rare instance) do you not think it should be looked into?

 

[Pau]

You've yet to provide any evidence that there is a correlation, and in the examples I've pointed out the exact opposite is true. Especially when studies like this

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162....-violence-against-women-fell-64-over-decade/

show violence against women have declined rapidly over the past decade, on top of declining more and more every decade before that in spite of sexualization and sexual expression increasing in the United States. And can we please not treat sexualization or sexual expression and women being sexual objects as the same thing?

I did post a study that showed such evidence.

I've never been against healthy sexual expression. What I'm against is depicting women as primarily or only sexual objects that exist for men.

I believe in personal responsibility. So does the law.

You mean the same law that doesn't prosecute the majority of rapists, let alone convicts them?

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Ehhhh the people who are criticizing Quiet and the rest of the games industry are the ones who come to the defense of real life women who are shamed for wearing something others deem too sexy or whatever. The point is there is a particular women that society has deemed as ideal. Very thin and often white. Being that isn't wrong. Pushing it as the dominant ideal representation is.

Yeah, this is important to remember in the "feminists are prudes" assertions. Not that I like defining anything as universally applicable, but I do think most feminists (or people that at least lean that way) are very much supportive of sexual freedom and of women acting however they should want to act. As such, most I know are very much against "slut shaming," for example.

But where stuff like video games gets attacked I think is that some worry that a women may not have enough diversity in their portrayals, and as such the hobby lacks a certain amount of inclusivity. Admittedly, it's a complicated issue to tackle, and I think we sometimes miss the forest for the trees focusing just on one character like Quiet or one creator like Kojima.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

"The themes of Metal Gear Solid V are “GENE” &#8658; “MEME” &#8658; “SCENE” &#8658; “PEACE” &#8658; “RACE”. It touches misunderstandings that happen due to the differences in ethnicity, language, traditions, culture, taste and because of discrimination, hatred and conflict. The reaction to Quiet that was instigated on the net is partly due to that, and it’s exactly what Metal Gear Solid V is about." - Kojima

HAHAHAHA well so much for the whole "MGS is silly fantasy that shouldn't be taken seriously", eh? If Kojima wants to write about IMPORTANT HUMAN THEMES (tm) and be taken seriously then maybe he shouldn't have snipers in bikinis and men that shoot bees and creepy photo shoots of writhing women clad in skin-tight costumes.

lol @ "YOU WILL BE ASHAMED".

Yes, except the whole 12 year old on a 45 year old would be disturbing, regardless of story context.

A woman who wears a bikini is not disturbing,

No. A so-called sniper who struts around in the desert dressed like a stripper and who can't even talk is creepy, though.

Reminds me of the whole Bros Before Hoes trophy white knight faux-outrage. The horror.

Are you calling me a white knight? That's funny.

Feminists liked the new Lara:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/carolpin...rs-lara-croft/
http://www.themarysue.com/tomb-raider-review/

I didn't, but not because Lara was sexualized (though I immediately put on that Aviatrix skin that came with my copy, 'cause it's just stupid for poor shivering Lara to walk around in the cold wind and rain in a tank top...) or objectified, but because she was boring, insipid and flat. She just had no personality whatsoever. Pity, opportunity at making an actual Strong Female Character (tm) wasted.

I never said anything to the contrary, in fact your making my argument for me. How is both the sexualiation of women in media; ie big boobs, skimpy clothing, etc and the undersexualization of women in the middle east both contributing to the same thing?

They contribute to dehumanizing women, just through different methods.

You can't have it both ways, and the fact that women's issues in the middle east are on a level of magnitude higher in scale than what we can even begin to imagine or relate to only highlights the fallacy in your argument.

Learn what a fallacy is, because you disagreeing with her doesn't make it fallacious. However, "b-b-but it's worse in the Middle East" is a fallacy, so you have a double whammy of fail + irony here. Also, see this.

So where then is all the outrage when the newest video game featuring the latest most baddest 'badass' dude comes out? Why aren't those conversations happening?

Outrages/conversations about what exactly?

Oh yea because "power fantasy" "power fantasy" "power fantasy", because your a MAN and your supposed to feel empowered and be all into this because that's all men can be. Whenever masculine studies, or any male driven issue, do come up in the conversation when dealing with self esteem issues, depression, etc among boys it's often met with "lol quit being such a pussy and man up."

I want to say that your privilege is showing, but that might be construed as mean-spirited, so all I can say is that if you genuinely have a problem with the portrayal of men in gaming, you're more than welcome to start discussions about it. But if you did, then you'd know how we feel, so clearly, you're just grasping at straws here.

 

[Smash]

Effects of exposure to sex-stereotyped video game characters on tolerance
of sexual harassment



Nope, media has no effect at all on how people view sexual harassment.

First of all, this isn't a study of causation of sexual violence or harassment, it's a study of correlation of tolerance of sexual harassment and violence. You're moving the goaposts. Second, there have been similar studies for correlation of violence and videogames and their results were equally flimsy.

 

[polyh3dron]

Yeah, this is important to remember in the "feminists are prudes" assertions. Not that I like defining anything as universally applicable, but I do think most feminists (or people that at least lean that way) are very much supportive of sexual freedom and of women acting however they should want to act. As such, most I know are very much against "slut shaming," for example.

But where stuff like video games gets attacked I think is that some worry that a women may not have enough diversity in their portrayals, and as such the hobby lacks a certain amount of inclusivity. Admittedly, it's a complicated issue to tackle, and I think we sometimes miss the forest for the trees focusing just on one character like Quiet or one creator like Kojima.

And even then, Kojima is one of the worst targets for such game dev shaming, since he is responsible for some of the better female characters in video games. Hell, The Boss is a straight up Female Power Fantasy character. Oh wait though, she's actually a Mrs Male Character or Guy With Boobs.. My bad.

 

[Raist]

Are we really reaching a point now where people would argue that things like Quiet's design can encourage violence against women?

It's rather weird, because I'm fairly sure that every single thread about this or that newspaper or whatever claiming that playing FPS and stuff can turn your kid into a psycho killer is unanimously a big "lol, yeah right".

 

[Pau]

Yeah, this is important to remember in the "feminists are prudes" assertions. Not that I like defining anything as universally applicable, but I do think most feminists (or people that at least lean that way) are very much supportive of sexual freedom and of women acting however they should want to act. As such, most I know are very much against "slut shaming," for example.

But where stuff like video games gets attacked I think is that some worry that a women may not have enough diversity in their portrayals, and as such the hobby lacks a certain amount of inclusivity. Admittedly, it's a complicated issue to tackle, and I think we sometimes miss the forest for the trees focusing just on one character like Quiet or one creator like Kojima.

From what I've read of the other women of this thread, they aren't focusing on one character but rather lamenting the lack of diversity. It is disappointing to hear of a new character in a video game who's female and then realize she's just going to be more of the same.

First of all, this isn't a study of causation of sexual violence or harassment, it's a study of correlation of tolerance of sexual harassment and violence. You're moving the goaposts. Second, there have been similar studies for correlation of violence and videogames and their results were similarly flimsy.

I'm going to assume this is a response to me and not CraftySkills. This whole time I've been talking about how the depiction of women in media can contribute to the culture around how they are treated. I don't see how I'm moving goalposts.

 

[Demon Ice]

Ehhhh the people who are criticizing Quiet and the rest of the games industry are the ones who come to the defense of real life women who are shamed for wearing something others deem too sexy or whatever.

Are you serious? You think that everyone ITT that is okay with the design of Quiet automatically is a victim-blamer / "slut-shamer" in cases of rape?

Please tell me I'm just misinterpreting what you posted.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Are you serious? You think that everyone ITT that is okay with the design of Quiet automatically is a victim-blamer / "slut-shamer" in cases of rape?

Please tell me I'm just misinterpreting what you posted.

You are misinterpreting what s/he posted. In fact, I don't know how you managed to get it so completely backwards, it must take special skills.

 

[Scrabble]

I don't think anyone seriously acknowledges something like that, in that it's not really the same as the female perspective.
I mean, yes, there's plenty of oversexualized males on the market. But there's hundreds of romantisized 'beta' males too. Name a female protagonist game, in which the woman isn't an ideolized form? Now name beta male pro games.
We have gta 5 coming up, which has both over weight, over the hill leads. The Kane and Lynch series, JRPGS also regularly feature a giant loser as the main, lol.
Not too many, sure. But they're there.
And non alpha/ pretty boy male characters are regularly features as celebrated side kicks. Whereas, women in games are almost 100% bikini models.

Spoiler

... or weird moe tropes[same thing though]

Not many overweight, dorky, old, or homely girls to speak of, even though we have an abundance or their male counterparts.

The reasoning for why I would expect there not to be many 'flawed' female protagonists is precisely because we place this importance to create "strong" and "independent" females above all else in order to not come across as being sexist or misogynistic. I mean how many times have you heard a female character in games being great on direct account of how "strong" she is. Never mind if she has about as much depth as 95% of male characters in gaming who equally fit the description of being "strong" or "independent", she's a women so that's all it takes to make a great female character. I personally find that attitude to be more condescending and condemning than "she's got boobs, and she's showing them too."

The truth is that I want more video game protagonists to exhibit flaws and to not be perfect, men and women alike. I want video games to express a First Blood moment where our 'bad ass' protagonist breaks down in tears and expresses his/her emotions, but no doubt would a woman be the first to do that would cries and allocations of 'sexism" be thrown it's way on account of "oh I get it, she's a woman so naturally she's going to get all emotional." It's why I feel all this faux and misdirected outrage is doing more harm than good, and in most cases is totally nothing more than someone being self serving to their own interests. By people telling you that your wrong or something is wrong, there not just tell you something is wrong, but there really telling you how awesome they are.

 

[Demon Ice]

You are misinterpreting what s/he posted. In fact, I don't know how you managed to get it so completely backwards, it must take special skills.

Please explain, preferably without an extreme pedophilic fantasy example. He posted "the people who are criticizing Quiet and the rest of the games industry are the ones who come to the defense of real life women who are shamed for wearing something others deem too sexy or whatever." which implies that the people who are okay with the design of Quiet would not come to the defense of a real life woman who is being shamed for the way she dresses, does it not?

I know, but don't you think it's still worth studying, even if there are real world effects. Even of the smallest? (That's my point). If there is a very small chance of media(in this case video games) have real world perceptions and actions on females(even in an extremely rare instance) do you not think it should be looked into?

If it's not statistically significant? No, it should not be looked into, because it's an utter waste of time. Not being statistically significant means that there is no reasonable correlation that can be made.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

but no doubt would a woman be the first to do that would cries and allocations of 'sexism" be thrown it's way on account of "oh I get it, she's a woman so naturally she's going to get all emotional."

Sounds like your mind is already made up on what people would say. I would call that faux and misdirected outrage, but...

It's why I feel all this faux and misdirected outrage is doing more harm than good, and in most cases is totally nothing more than someone being self serving to their own interests.

...lol

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Please explain, preferably without an extreme pedophilic fantasy example. He posted "the people who are criticizing Quiet and the rest of the games industry are the ones who come to the defense of real life women who are shamed for wearing something others deem too sexy or whatever." which implies that the people who are okay with the design of Quiet would not come to the defense of a real life woman who is being shamed for the way she dresses.

It implies no such thing. If I say that the same people who enjoy wine usually enjoy cheese, am I saying that those who hate wine must also hate cheese? Your "implication" makes zero sense.

S/he was saying what we've been saying all along: the same feminists who have a problem with Quiet's design are not puritans, but on the contrary, they are those who are absolutely against slut-shaming and will defend a woman's right to wear what she chooses, because feminism is about choice.

 

[Demon Ice]

This thread is moving too fast for me now.

I personally find the claim that sexualized characters in video games = real life violence against women to be no better than the whole "GTA / COD / Other shooters = real life gun violence" claims.

It implies no such thing. If I say that the same people who enjoy wine usually enjoy cheese, am I saying that those who hate wine must also hate cheese?

S/he was saying what we've been saying all along: the same feminists who have a problem with Quiet's design are not puritans, but on the contrary, they those who are absolutely against slut-shaming and will defend a woman's right to wear what she chooses, because feminism is about choice.

Okay, that makes more sense. My mistake.

 

[BumblebeeCody]

If it's not statistically significant? No, it should not be looked into, because it's an utter waste of time. Not being statistically significant means that there is no reasonable correlation that can be made.

Fair enough. I can respect you on that. But(yes, but) If magazines and TV can tell a girl how to dress and what to wear then I don't see how that one random guy will look at a game like Deadpool and think it's OK to degrade her by grabbing her chest. Those...really weird people y'know.

In the case of Quiet, I think it's subjective and not to be taken seriously. I don't think he design has any consequences. If Kojima made a statement saying "oh yeah, all females are inferior" then yeah. But the Metal Gear series isn't really one to be "cliche" to females. Again, Kojima said there is a reason behind her design which is why I'm on the fence about this whole ordeal and not saying anything on it, because no-one knows the whole story.

 

[Smash]

I'm going to assume this is a response to me and not CraftySkills. This whole time I've been talking about how the depiction of women in media can contribute to the culture around how they are treated. I don't see how I'm moving goalposts.

Your words not mine.

And yeah, women being so sexualized and objectified in media is part of a larger problem of sexual harassment and sexualized violence.

This shit is unacceptable. You're being purposely obtuse even though I explicitly explained the humongous and obvious difference between a producer creating a female CG model that appeals to male fans without hurting anyone and sexual harassment. Congrats, your astonishing intellectual dishonesty pissed me off.

And people have engaged you saying that the difference isn't as obvious and humongous as you think it is. (People who actually have to deal with the ramifications of such objectification in every day life.) But I guess it's easier for you to just dismiss us.

So all this time the problem you were identifying is that a very small percentage of men tolerate sexual harassment more immediately after watching sexualized images of women? (no proof of long term effects btw according to study) Is this the big correlation you were talking about between sexualization and sexual violence?

 

[faceless007]

Yeah, this is important to remember in the "feminists are prudes" assertions. Not that I like defining anything as universally applicable, but I do think most feminists (or people that at least lean that way) are very much supportive of sexual freedom and of women acting however they should want to act. As such, most I know are very much against "slut shaming," for example.

But where stuff like video games gets attacked I think is that some worry that a women may not have enough diversity in their portrayals, and as such the hobby lacks a certain amount of inclusivity. Admittedly, it's a complicated issue to tackle, and I think we sometimes miss the forest for the trees focusing just on one character like Quiet or one creator like Kojima.

Well, I think the entire premise of "focusing on just one thing" is more an artifact of the very design of this message board and the rapid daily news cycle of the gaming community than anything else. This forum is basically dedicated to creating new threads for every little bit of news about any notable game -- new trailer, comment from dev, tech spec released, etc. -- so it only stands to reason that if some aspect of a bit of news is part of a broader cultural context, like sexism in games, people will take the opportunity to have that discussion within that thread. Similarly, the way news breaks on gaming blogs and the emphasis to push out multiple stories per day about minutia of individual titles rather than long-form comprehensive surveys encourages people to comment and reply on the details of that particular story. It's not a conscious decision of feminists to discuss the things they find problematic in such a fragmented, targeted fashion, it's more a product of how things happen so quickly in the news. The reason people are focusing on Kojima today is because he made his tweets today. The reason people were focusing on PAX a few days ago was because it happened a few days ago.

Which is why I always find the whole "why are they singling this thing out" criticism to be a disingenuous deflection. If a feminist posts criticism of something sexist in the threads about ten different games, they will inevitably be asked why they're singling out that game...in each of those ten threads. And just as inevitably, they will be asked "Why weren't you complaining about [other problematic thing] back then?" when the reality is feminists almost certainly did criticize it at the time when it was relevant. The people who make these charges tend to have very short-term memories.

It would probably be interesting to try to start a discussion about the subject on a broader macro level that isn't so focused on individual news stories, and we've had some examples, but even those were basically prompted by a singular event (editorial and twitter campaign, respectively), and I'm not sure the design of this forum would be conducive to it.

(I'm not accusing you of having made that accusation, I'm just using your post as a jumping-off point to address it.)

 

[Romars202129]

The reasoning for why I would expect there not to be many 'flawed' female protagonists is precisely because we place this importance to create "strong" and "independent" females above all else in order to not come across as being sexist or misogynistic. I mean how many times have you heard a female character in games being great on direct account of how "strong" she is. Never mind if she has about as much depth as 95% of male characters in gaming who equally fit the description of being "strong" or "independent", she's a women so that's all it takes to make a great female character. I personally find that attitude to be more condescending and condemning than "she's got boobs, and she's showing them too."

The truth is that I want more video game protagonists to exhibit flaws and to not be perfect, men and women alike. I want video games to express a First Blood moment where our 'bad ass' protagonist breaks down in tears and expresses his/her emotions, but no doubt would a woman be the first to do that would cries and allocations of 'sexism" be thrown it's way on account of "oh I get it, she's a woman so naturally she's going to get all emotional." It's why I feel all this faux and misdirected outrage is doing more harm than good, and in most cases is totally nothing more than someone being self serving to their own interests. By people telling you that your wrong or something is wrong, there not just tell you something is wrong, but there really telling you how awesome they are.

I'm not saying there isn't a boatload of hypocrisy on both sides, I'm just saying that's one position where I think I can see and recognize some true Sexism.

 

[Pau]

Your words not mine.
So all this time the problem you were identifying is that a very small percentage of men tolerate sexual harassment more immediately after watching sexualized images of women? (no proof of long term effects btw according to study) Is this the big correlation you were talking about between sexualization and sexual violence?

I never talked about a big correlation, sorry. I said it was part of a larger problem. That study doesn't negate that, but rather reinforces it.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

From what I've read of the other women of this thread, they aren't focusing on one character but rather lamenting the lack of diversity. It is disappointing to hear of a new character in a video game who's female and then realize she's just going to be more of the same.

Oh, sure. I'm not trying to single out a side there. It can apply to feminists attacking Quiet or anti-feminists defending Quiet. That was just a broad observation meant to highlight that the broad conversation is difficult to have within the confines of one thread wherein our attention is focused one one particular character/game/designer. "Females in gaming" is best explored at the macro level, but unfortunately thread structures at forums tend to end up shining a microscope on a particular topic, which obfuscates the debate.

 

[Karkador]

But where stuff like video games gets attacked I think is that some worry that a women may not have enough diversity in their portrayals, and as such the hobby lacks a certain amount of inclusivity. Admittedly, it's a complicated issue to tackle, and I think we sometimes miss the forest for the trees focusing just on one character like Quiet or one creator like Kojima.

It's a huge intersection of various issues and topics that becomes a huge mess to discuss when NeoGAF-calibur videogame fans get overly defensive about games, not unlike console warriors do about consoles.

I'd love to just leave it as a standalone critique of Kojima's work and its shortcomings, but then people start dragging in nonsense about being a prude, being a stuffy sex-negative feminist, not understanding the sex-starved male, being 'faux outraged' (they're right, I'm not outraged). A lot of worthwhile conversation gets deflected with stuff that really isn't even worth responding to, but that's just how it goes, and then we get a 60 page thread about a butt on Twitter.

 

[Scrabble]

.


They contribute to dehumanizing women, just through different methods.

Aghhh, now were just going in circles because I honestly fail to see how women expressing sexuality or sexualization is dehumanizing to women. Forcing women to be covered from head to toe at their demand with absolutely no say is dehumanizing. People like you expressing how stuff like this

http://0.tqn.com/d/playstation/1/0/i/E/IMG_5026.JPG

as being "objectified" or "dehumanizing" is nothing more than being condescending.

Learn what a fallacy is, because you disagreeing with her doesn't make it fallacious. However, "b-b-but it's worse in the Middle East" is a fallacy, so you have a double whammy of fail + irony here. Also, see this.

My argument wasn't "but it's worse in the middle east" it was the apparent wide generalization that "look at this skimpy clothing and how it's the sole cause for these issues" while completely disregarding entire cultures that place there sole importance on making sure women are as unsexualized as possible, and the actual direct effects that it causes in the persecution and assault and attitudes towards women.

Outrages/conversations about what exactly?

I want to say that your privilege is showing, but that might be construed as mean-spirited, so all I can say is that if you genuinely have a problem with the portrayal of men in gaming, you're more than welcome to start discussions about it. But if you did, then you'd know how we feel, so clearly, you're just grasping at straws here.

Way to go on proving my point on society's stance toward this very subject. "oh well your a man, ya well just suck it up and deal with it you privileged baby." How can anyone, even a feminist, seriously in good conscience support this kind of mindset. Never mind that studies show men being equally depressed as women, your attitude is just quite frankly mean spirited and gross.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/aug/28/science/la-sci-depression-men-20130829

Also you completly missed the point on my example. Societal issues and norms go beyond media like the Terminator or any other macho movie with big dudes and guns. There are bigger societal issues at play here that extend beyond this type of scapegoating that doesn't do anything more than hide real issues. I'm pretty sure men dealt with issues of manhood and being MANLY long before films with burly dudes with guns came around. Just as women have dealt with being objectified and having to deal with sexual violence and assault despite this being the common attire

 

[Romars202129]

It's a huge intersection of various issues and topics that becomes a huge mess to discuss when NeoGAF-calibur videogame fans get overly defensive about games, not unlike console warriors do about consoles.

I'd love to just leave it as a standalone critique of Kojima's work and its shortcomings, but then people start dragging in nonsense about being a prude, being a stuffy sex-negative feminist, not understanding the sex-starved male, being 'faux outraged' (they're right, I'm not outraged). A lot of worthwhile conversation gets deflected with stuff that really isn't even worth responding to, but that's just how it goes, and then we get a 60 page thread about a butt on Twitter.

Hey, Karkador's back!
Boy, you really took that prude stuff to heart. I didn't mean nothing by it. I honestly don't feel a prudist' oppinion is immediately dismissal worthy either, for the record.

 

[Pau]

My argument wasn't "but it's worse in the middle east" it was the apparent wide generalization that "look at this skimpy clothing and how it's the sole cause for these issues" while completely disregarding entire cultures that place there sole importance on making sure women are as unsexualized as possible, and the actual direct effects that it causes in the persecution and assault and attitudes towards women.

Good thing no one in this thread ever made that argument.

 

[Smash]

I never talked about a big correlation, sorry. I said it was part of a larger problem. That study doesn't negate that, but rather reinforces it.

It seems like an incredibly negligible part though, don't you think? You tried to correlate sexual violence and harassment with sexualization of women and all you managed to prove is an insignificant short-term correlation between tolerance of sexual harassment and sexualization. So I'd say my assessment that you're moving the goalposts is pretty spot on.

 

[Scrabble]

Good thing no one in this thread ever made that argument.

When it becomes the one and only talking point on the cause towards the objectification of women than forgive me if it sometimes comes across that way.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Aghhh, now were just going in circles because I honestly fail to see how women expressing sexuality or sexualization is dehumanizing to women. Forcing women to be covered from head to toe at their demand with absolutely no say is dehumanizing. People like you expressing how stuff like this

http://0.tqn.com/d/playstation/1/0/i/E/IMG_5026.JPG

....Going in circles indeed. How many times have we said that a woman choosing how she dresses by her own agency has nothing to do with how men draw them in games? Jesus!

My argument wasn't "but it's worse in the middle east" it was the apparent wide generalization that "look at this skimpy clothing and how it's the sole cause for these issues"

So now we can add strawman to the list of fallacies you've committed tonight. You're on a roll.

Way to go on proving my point on society's stance toward this very subject. "oh well your a man, ya well just suck it up and deal with it you privileged baby."

That's not what I said.

How can anyone, even a feminist, seriously in good conscience support this kind of mindset. Never mind that studies show men being equally depressed as women

What does depression have to do with anything now? Non-sequitur.

Also you completly missed the point on my example. Societal issues and norms go beyond media like the Terminator or any other macho movie with big dudes and guns. There are bigger societal issues at play here that extend beyond this type of scapegoating that doesn't do anything more than hide real issues. I'm pretty sure men dealt with issues of manhood and being MANLY long before films with burly dudes with guns came around. Just as women have dealt with being objectified and having to deal with sexual violence and assault despite this being the common attire

I have no idea what you're trying to say anymore. Sorry. I wish you had instead addressed the words I actually wrote, directly, instead of going
off on a bizarre tangent. But eh. *shrugs*

 

[Pau]

It seems like an incredibly negligible part though, don't you think? You tried to correlate sexual violence and harassment with sexualization of women and all you managed to prove is an insignificant short-term correlation between tolerance of sexual harassment and sexualization. So I'd say my assessment that you're moving the goalposts is pretty spot on.

Actually, I kept saying that such sexualization made men think sexual harassment was okay, which is what that study shows. But it's pretty clear that we're not gonna agree on this.

When it becomes the one and only talking point on the cause towards the objectification of women than forgive me if it sometimes comes across that way.

This is a thread about the depiction of women in a particular medium, not about all the different factors that contribute to rape culture.

 

[Karkador]

....Going in circles indeed. How many times have we said that a woman choosing how she dresses by her own agency has nothing to do with how men draw them in games? Jesus!

It's a bit surprising that people can't seem to separate these two concepts (or at least acknowledge that we're not talking about how women dress in the real world)

 

[Scrabble]

....Going in circles indeed. How many times have we said that a woman choosing how she dresses by her own agency has nothing to do with how men draw them in games? Jesus!

Than why the fuck does the topic always manage to come to "the depiction of women in media and culture" leading to increased sexual assault, and not "the depiction of female characters in games" leading to objectification and increased assault of women? Do you honestly believe that characters like Quiet are the cause for sexual assault and objectification of women? If not then why the hell was that subject brought up in the first place, only to have the goal post move more and more? Are you going to try and tell me that the larger topic at hand hasn't always been much broader than characters like Quiet?

That's not what I said.

I want to say that your privilege is showing, but that might be construed as mean-spirited

You honestly don't think that may be just a little bit condescending and gushing over real issues because "oh well men are privaliged so they have nothing to worry about." Please, you know exactly what you meant.

What does depression have to do with anything now? Non-sequitur.

Are you playing dumb now to just avoid having any discussion. The depictions of women in media has long been linked by people as being a main cause of depression, self esteem issues, etc for women. But if you want to continue to play the "men are privileged and therefore don't have to deal with issues" than I'm done trying to have any legitimate argument with you.

I have no idea what you're trying to say anymore. Sorry. I wish you had instead addressed the words I actually wrote, directly, instead of going
off on a bizarre tangent. But eh. *shrugs*

I did respond to how you completely missed the point I was trying to make about societal issues going beyond depictions in media. If you actually want to address what I said and not hide behind "oh well I totally don't know what your getting at" than please do so, but don't take the high ground as if I'm only going on some "bizarre tangent" and pretend it's not relevant to the discussion because you have nothing to add.

 

[Smash]

Actually, I kept saying that such sexualization made men think sexual harassment was okay, which is what that study shows. But it's pretty clear that we're not gonna agree on this.
.

Like I said you didn't manage to do that either. It's a very weak correlation that could easily be disputed in other studies and proves nothing about long-term decision making.

What you also conveniently fail to mention is that sexualization in videogames gives much more definitive results in women who tolerate sexual harassment a lot less after watching sexualized images. So based on your assumption that short-term = long-term results, sexualization of women actually empowers them.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Than why the fuck does the topic always manage to come to "the depiction of women in media and culture" leading to increased sexual assault, and not "the depiction of female characters in games" leading to objectification and increased assault of women? Do you honestly believe that characters like Quiet are the cause for sexual assault and objectification of women?

Why are you asking if "I honestly believe that"? Have I said anything that suggested that I did? Are you conflating me with someone else? We NeoGAF feminists aren't a monolithic entities, you know.

It'd be cool if you were engaging in a real discussion by addressing what is actually being said and trying to understand where we're coming from when we find rampant objectification of female characters as problematic. But I can tell that this is of no interest to you. You'd rather build up strawmen because that's easier to take down, and go off about bizarre tangents about men's depression and various social issues that I never once brought up. I am sick at the moment and I have no energy to waste on refuting a bunch of fallacies, so, whatever, have your little victory.

 

[big_erk]

This topic made me think of this.

http://youtu.be/IkTZ8BVAlFE