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[Zen]

EDIT: Beaten.

For a while now I've been thinking that she 'projects' whatever people want to see her as.

We see her how she is because she's the 'ideal' sexualized woman for Big Boss.

But talk is cheap Kojima. If we're to feel ashamed for our words and deeds, it couldn't be that she is as I just described... because or 'words and deeds' are objecting to her over sexualization, not clamoring for it.

 

[Scooter]

Umm... wow. Okay.

We are agreed on the fact that women can wear whatever the fuck they want to wear, but are you seriously going with the defense "men can't help themselves because they are men"? This is seriously coming across as more of a "I do it, I like it, and therefore if anyone says anything, I'll raise hell since I can't possibly be wrong. Anyone who disagrees is wrong" kinda thing than anything else.

See, to him, we're sexists by association for defending Kojima, lol.

How are you people not getting this? If something doesn't hurt other people and only annoys sexually repressed supposed feminists who consider sexual attraction degradation then there's nothing wrong with men being more "sexually starved" than women. When sexual urges victimize other people then it's obviously deplorable and disgusting. This is pretty black and white, how the hell are you missing my point?

 

[Pau]

How are you people not getting this? If something doesn't hurt other people and only annoys sexually repressed supposed feminists who consider sexual attraction degradation then there's nothing wrong with men being more "sexually starved" than women. When sexual urges victimize other people then it's obviously deplorable and disgusting. This is pretty black and white, how the hell are you missing my point?

lol

I like how that's always a counterpoint in these threads. If it makes you feel better about yourself to think we're sexually repressed, by all means.

Our point is that constantly showing women as only being there for the sexual gratification for men - even just visually - can be problematic and does make men then think it's okay to act on that.

 

[Karkador]

How are you people not getting this? If something doesn't hurt other people and only annoys sexually repressed supposed feminists who consider sexual attraction degradation then there's nothing wrong with men being more "sexually starved" than women. When sexual urges victimize other people then it's obviously deplorable and disgusting. This is pretty black and white, how the hell are you missing my point?

not only are you assuming those people actually exist, you're assuming those are the only people who have a problem with it. but hey, whatever you can use to push your wobbly argument along...

 

[Romars202129]

How are you people not getting this? If something doesn't hurt other people and only annoys sexually repressed supposed feminists who consider sexual attraction degradation then there's nothing wrong with men being more "sexually starved" than women. When sexual urges victimize other people then it's obviously deplorable and disgusting. This is pretty black and white, how the hell are you missing my point?

Well, I do agree there is a greater discussion to be had about sexism in games, I do think it's an issue.
It's, just to me, I feel a game like COD, which pretty much has no women at all, is more misogynistic than say Bayonetta, which yes, has a sexualized woman [ugu buga buuuga!]. But, she's decent character and the protagonist.
Is that crazy? I think if Kojima parades around a lady in a skimpy outfit for sales, it's okay, as long as when you get into it, she's a badass[which is more than often the case in his games].
I'm saying, isn't he doing more good than harm?

 

[Scooter]

not only are you assuming those people actually exist, you're assuming those are the only people who have a problem with it. but hey, whatever you can use to push your wobbly argument along...

The fact that serious accusations like objectification and degradation of women are being thrown around in threads about sexually attractive CG models tells me that puritanism is a given.

 

[Romars202129]

not only are you assuming those people actually exist, you're assuming those are the only people who have a problem with it. but hey, whatever you can use to push your wobbly argument along...

Dude, I don't know about anyone else in here but you are totally just a prude.

 

[Karkador]

Dude, I don't know about anyone else in here but you are totally just a prude.

Based on what information?

The fact that serious accusations like objectification and degradation of women are being thrown around in threads about sexually attractive CG models tells me that puritanism is a given.

No, pointing out that your "sexually starved" comments sounds like justification for sexual harassment is more of an aside. Speaking of wild accusations, what's up with you accusing any criticism of how someone does female characters of being "puritanism"? It's kind of like you don't even know what that word means, and even if you did, it's a huge fuckin' leap to assume that I suscribe to any of those beliefs. But rather than actually make sound arguments, you just keep calling us puritans.

 

[Romars202129]

Based on what information?

You feel that sexualized women are never justifiable in video games right?

 

[Pau]

Dude, I don't know about anyone else in here but you are totally just a prude.

This is too funny.

 

[Karkador]

You feel that sexualized women are never justifiable in video games right?

Please go find a quote of me where I said that. Alternatively, stop talking to me.

 

[Scooter]

Well, I do agree there is a greater discussion to be had about sexism in games, I do think it's an issue.
It's, just to me, I feel a game like COD, which pretty much has no women at all, is more misogynistic than say Bayonetta, which yes, has a sexualized woman [ugu buga buuuga!]. But, she's decent character and the protagonist.
Is that crazy? I think if Kojima parades around a lady in a skimpy outfit for sales, it's okay, as long as when you get into it, she's a badass[which is more than often the case in his games].
I'm saying, isn't he doing more good than harm?

Exactly. I dislike games and movies that mostly depict women as helpless and weak, not only because they're generalizing and mischaracterizing but because I like female characters (and women in general) who are independent and aggressive. But showing them in skimpy outfits? Who gives a fuck? Unless you're a conservative that thinks that skimpy outfits or even nudity somehow degrade women there's absolutely no reason to even care about that.

 

[Pau]

Exactly. I dislike games and movies that mostly depict women as helpless and weak, not only because they're generalizing and mischaracterizing but because I like female characters (and women in general) who are independent and aggressive. But showing them in skimpy outfits? Who gives a fuck? Unless you're a conservative that thinks that skimpy outfits or even nudity somehow degrade women there's absolutely no reason to even care about that.

There is a way to care about it:

When the only portrayal you see of women is in just very sexualized outfits. If there was more diversity in the depictions of women this would not be a problem at all.

Now to wait for someone to just call me a prude or puritan.

 

[Romars202129]

Please go find a quote of me where I said that. Alternatively, stop talking to me.

I'm not quoting you, I'm asking you, is there any sexualized woman in all of gaming that you approve of?

 

[Karkador]

Exactly. I dislike games and movies that mostly depict women as helpless and weak, not only because they're generalizing and mischaracterizing but because I like female characters (and women in general) who are independent and aggressive. But showing them in skimpy outfits? Who gives a fuck? Unless you're a conservative that thinks that skimpy outfits or even nudity somehow degrade women there's absolutely no reason to even care about that.

So does clothing and equipment not matter at all? Should everyone in Metal Gear games be naked, because who gives a fuck? In a videogame that puts so much emphasis on equipment and gadgets and stuff like that?

I'm not quoting you, I'm asking you, is there any sexualized woman in all of gaming that you approve of?

No, no, you seemed so sure, I'd much rather hear your answer than tell you something you're going to dismiss either way.

 

[Doffen]

Come on, just look at her evolution

It's a blatantly obvious. But I guess it makes it okay since they didn't actually say it like Kojima.

What's wrong with a little software update?

 

[Scooter]

No, pointing out that your "sexually starved" comments sounds like justification for sexual harassment is more of an aside. Speaking of wild accusations, what's up with you accusing any criticism of how someone does female characters of being "puritanism"? It's kind of like you don't even know what that word means, and even if you did, it's a huge fuckin' leap to assume that I suscribe to any of those beliefs. But rather than actually make sound arguments, you just keep calling us puritans.

This shit is unacceptable. You're being purposely obtuse even though I explicitly explained the humongous and obvious difference between a producer creating a female CG model that appeals to male fans without hurting anyone and sexual harassment. Congrats, your astonishing intellectual dishonesty pissed me off, I'm logging out for today.

 

[Northeastmonk]

You have all thrown your first stones! He has to explain the theme behind MGS5 before everyone understands it.

http://kotaku.com/theres-a-reason-for-metal-gears-sexy-sniper-what-it-1270166313

 

[Pau]

This shit is unacceptable. You're being purposely obtuse even though I explicitly explained the humongous and obvious difference between a producer creating a female CG model that appeals to male fans without hurting anyone and sexual harassment. Congrats, your astonishing intellectual dishonesty pissed me off.

And people have engaged you saying that the difference isn't as obvious and humongous as you think it is. (People who actually have to deal with the ramifications of such objectification in every day life.) But I guess it's easier for you to just dismiss us.

 

[Karkador]

This shit is unacceptable. You're being purposely obtuse even though I explicitly explained the humongous and obvious difference between a producer creating a female CG model that appeals to male fans without hurting anyone and sexual harassment. Congrats, your astonishing intellectual dishonesty pissed me off, I'm out.

Wait, really? Because all I saw from you was kinda conflating the two as "guys are more sexually starved, so it's okay"

 

[Epsilon]

lol

I like how that's always a counterpoint in these threads. If it makes you feel better about yourself to think we're sexually repressed, by all means.

Our point is that constantly showing women as only being there for the sexual gratification for men - even just visually - can be problematic and does make men then think it's okay to act on that.

Should men close their eyes everytime they walk next a Lingerie shop? what would having less sexy females in games ever accomplish?

Men are bombarded with sexy female imagery everywhere, on billboards, magazine racks, TV, everywhere.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

Female characters in games should probably just be floating, disembodied brains.

 

[Romars202129]

So does clothing and equipment not matter at all? Should everyone in Metal Gear games be naked, because who gives a fuck? In a videogame that puts so much emphasis on equipment and gadgets and stuff like that?




No, no, you seemed so sure, I'd much rather hear your answer than tell you something you're going to dismiss anyway.

Sure, I already said I think Bayanetta's awesomeness justifies her sexiness. I also think Eva is justified, because she uses her femininity as a weapon. Sniper Wolf, Olga, Naomi.
It's more of a stretch, because I hate the way her character was utilized, but I also think Madison[in heavy rain] was justified... except for that stupid sexy dance.
Oh, and the women of Uncharted have always come off as cool to me.
Alright, your turn.

 

[FunkQueue]

For a while now I've been thinking that she 'projects' whatever people want to see her as.

We see her how she is because she's the 'ideal' sexualized woman for Big Boss.

But talk is cheap Kojima. If we're to feel ashamed for our words and deeds, it couldn't be that she is as I just described... because or 'words and deeds' are objecting to her over sexualization, not clamoring for it.

I think you're right. That would line up with Kojima's tweets.

 

[Pau]

Should men close their eyes everytime they walk next a Lingerie shop? what would having less sexy females in games ever accomplish?

Men are bombarded with sexy female imagery everywhere, on billboards, magazine racks, TV, everywhere.

What it might accomplish is giving female players like me another option of what I want to play as? How is us asking for such a thing any different than any other player talking about wanting more games that fit their wants? Not only that, but diversity in character designs (not just of women) can only lead to good things. But hey, if you want all your video games to be the same...

And yeah, women being so sexualized and objectified in media is part of a larger problem of sexual harassment and sexualized violence.

Spoiler

I find it funny you brought up lingerie shops since I actually shop there with my boyfriend. That's actually frowned upon though by the shops themselves though so I'm not the one with the double standard here.

 

[Minion101]

I'm ok with inappropriately dressed woman.

 

[Sn4ke_911]

Please leave Kojima alone.

It's his game and he can do whatever the fuck he wants with it.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Please leave Kojima alone.

It's his game and he can do whatever the fuck he wants with it.

Perhaps you're being facetious, hence the image, but this is like saying that no one should ever criticize a person's work because they can do whatever they want with it.

 

[The Lamp]

Let's be honest: most fighting games don't have a reason for their dress code. As much as I love Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, etc, the usage of their characters isn't exactly deep.

(To SF's credit, it seems to be almost parodying itself, but yeah.).

What he's getting at, and what I'm getting at too, is that fighting games sold many of their games on sex appeal, and those characters were mostly nothing more than a pair of bouncing boobs. Expectations apply, but the genre was bad. This differs from someone making a character that has a reason to dress the way she does, and has depth instead of being just a pair of something.


Telling us to be ashamed isn't the best choice of words, but guess what? Being reactionary (and really, outright assuming the worst instead of being objective) isn't the right way to respond to a character. He's going to set this character up. She has a reason to dress the way she does. But nobody is going to care about that shit because they see what she looks like and assume the worst, even though evidence points the other way.

Here's the deal. Bayonetta was the same way, and it got creamed by forum goers. The adverts were bad, and not a lot of people "got" what it was trying to do until they actually played it. In highlight, it didn't deserve the hate.

I feel bad that you are so jaded by the industry that you won't trust what it will and won't do, but I'm thinking about just taking it case by case and really analyzing things instead of writing them off.

No offense to all, but I believe I'm done with this conversation already. Good day.

Kojima has never really cared to deeply explain the wardrobe behind his female characters before. Except for Meryl's soldier disguise. He let's fans just enjoy the absurdity. Don't try to say that people are wrong because Kojima will have a good reason for why she's dressed that way. They said they wanted her skimpier and why, it probably has nothing to do with plot.

I doubt much logical background could explain wearing such uselessly skimpy clothes on the battlefield.

Edit: nvm, saw the other thread where Kojima responds.

 

[Romars202129]

Perhaps you're being facetious, hence the image, but this is like saying that no one should ever criticize a person's work because they can do whatever they want with it.

Well we could at least wait to play it beforehand.
On a side note, I have very drawn out, empassioned and bull headed oppinion of the harry Potter books, despite never reading any of them or seeing any of the movies.
Would you like to try and talk to me as I rant and rave through page after page of this thread while you try and explain to me I'm being a little premature and short sighted?
Just kidding, sorry, couldn't helpt it!

 

[Epsilon]

What it might accomplish is giving female players like me another option of what I want to play as? How is us asking for such a thing any different than any other player talking about wanting more games that fit their wants? Not only that, but diversity in character designs (not just of women) can only lead to good things. But hey, if you want all your video games to be the same...

And yeah, women being so sexualized and objectified in media is part of a larger problem of sexual harassment and sexualized violence.

Spoiler

I find it funny you brought up lingerie shops since I actually shop there with my boyfriend. That's actually frowned upon though by the shops themselves though so I'm not the one with the double standard here.

This year has seen a plethora of strong non-sexualised female characters, Lara from the Tomb raider reboot, Ellie from the TLOU, the lead of Remember me, and the upcoming Beyond just to name a few, i dont see this lack of diversity that you're talking about.

I just get the impression that you deem sexy=degrading, which is a really narrow way of looking at things.

 

[Pau]

This year has seen a plethora of strong non-sexualised female characters, Lara from the Tomb raider reboot, Ellie from the TLOU, the lead of Remember me, and the upcoming Beyond just to name a few, i dont see this lack of diversity that you're talking about.

I just get the impression that you deem sexy=degrading, which is a really narrow way of looking at things.

Yeah, I like the lead of Remember Me too. As for the others, Ellie isn't billed as a playable character, and I stayed away from Tomb Raider because of the sexualized violence.

That's funny that you get that impression, considering you know nothing about me. And I never said being portrayed as sexy was degrading. All I'm saying is I want more diversity in character design and I'd rather play characters who are not so sexualized because most of the characters I have played in the past have been and I'm just tired of it.

 

[Kikujiro]

Yeah, I like the lead of Remember Me too. As for the others, Ellie isn't billed as a playable character, and I stayed away from Tomb Raider because of the sexualized violence.

Feminists liked the new Lara:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/carolpinchefsky/2013/03/12/a-feminist-reviews-tomb-raiders-lara-croft/
http://www.themarysue.com/tomb-raider-review/

And I have to shake my head at you saying "sexualized violence". The violent deaths have nothing to do with sexism, the main character happens to be and a woman, they would have done the same for a man, you can call it gore voyeurism, but trying to spin it as a sexist decision, I mean that's exactly the problem when you see only what you want to see. None of those two article I've posted had any problem with Lara's graphic deaths.

 

[rvy]

and I stayed away from Tomb Raider because of the sexualized violence.

The... what?

 

[The Librarian]

This shit is unacceptable. You're being purposely obtuse even though I explicitly explained the humongous and obvious difference between a producer creating a female CG model that appeals to male fans without hurting anyone and sexual harassment. Congrats, your astonishing intellectual dishonesty pissed me off, I'm logging out for today.

And people have engaged you saying that the difference isn't as obvious and humongous as you think it is. (People who actually have to deal with the ramifications of such objectification in every day life.) But I guess it's easier for you to just dismiss us.

Pau has it right. Sure, maybe Quiet's design itself isn't going to do any harm, but it's part of a larger trend that is doing harm.

Should men close their eyes everytime they walk next a Lingerie shop? what would having less sexy females in games ever accomplish?

Men are bombarded with sexy female imagery everywhere, on billboards, magazine racks, TV, everywhere.

Ding ding ding! There's your problem!

 

[Epsilon]

Yeah, I like the lead of Remember Me too. As for the others, Ellie isn't billed as a playable character, and I stayed away from Tomb Raider because of the sexualized violence.

That's funny that you get that impression, considering you know nothing about me. And I never said being portrayed as sexy was degrading. All I'm saying is I want more diversity in character design and I'd rather play characters who are not so sexualized because most of the characters I have played in the past have been and I'm just tired of it.

But Quiet it not even a playable character in this game, and she probably has little screen time.

and if your original point was that the mere existence of sexy female characters in video games incites men to harass women, sorry to break it to you, most men have the capacity to respect women as human beings no matter how scantily clad they're portrayed in games or the media in general, not all of us are rabid sex starved dickheads.

it's just unfortunate to see how little faith you have in men.

 

[Scrabble]

What it might accomplish is giving female players like me another option of what I want to play as? How is us asking for such a thing any different than any other player talking about wanting more games that fit their wants? Not only that, but diversity in character designs (not just of women) can only lead to good things. But hey, if you want all your video games to be the same...

And yeah, women being so sexualized and objectified in media is part of a larger problem of sexual harassment and sexualized violence.

Spoiler

I find it funny you brought up lingerie shops since I actually shop there with my boyfriend. That's actually frowned upon though by the shops themselves though so I'm not the one with the double standard here.

Do you have any evidence to back this up? Considering how far we've come from the times women were dressed and depicted as this

http://www.enjoy-your-style.com/images/dresden.jpg

I'd say your statement is a little unfounded. And we can look to parts in the world where your statement most definitely falls apart when regarding the sexualization, or in these cases, the unsexualization of women.

Women being undersexualized

Haven't stopped absolutly horrific events like this

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/05/child-rape-victim-forced-marry-attacker-son_n_3875754.html

http://tribune.com.pk/story/593466/cut-into-pieces-she-challenged-gods-orders/

which have become so commonplace in these parts of the world.

The issue with sexual violence has nothing to do with the general sexualzation or the depiction of women, it has to do with assholes being assholes. And those assholes would have been assholes regardless of how women are sexually depicted in media. We have to look at the real root and cause as for why people do deplorable shit and fix those issues with our society, pointing to women being sexualized as a problem and cause for violence is just completely absurd and just does more harm than good. Not to mention it's pretty degrading to women who do flaunt their sexuality confidently who have to deal with this stigma of being objectified, used, part of the problem, giving in to societal demands, etc on a day to day basis.

 

[Pau]

Feminists liked the new Lara:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/carolpinchefsky/2013/03/12/a-feminist-reviews-tomb-raiders-lara-croft/
http://www.themarysue.com/tomb-raider-review/

And I have to shake my head at you saying "sexualized violence". The violent deaths have nothing to do with sexism, the main character happens to be and a woman, they would have done the same for a man, you can call it gore voyeurism, but trying to spin it as a sexist decision, I mean that's exactly the problem when you see only what you want to see. None of those two article I've posted had any problem with Lara's graphic deaths.

I meant the rape threats, which yes, rape is sexualized violence. Not the graphic death scenes. I don't have a problem with the new Lara's design; from what I've heard it's not a game I would enjoy playing.

But Quiet it not even a playable character in this game, and she probably has little screen time.

and if your original point was that the mere existence of sexy female characters in video games incites men to harass women, sorry to break it to you, most men have the capacity to respect women as human beings no matter how scantily clad they're portrayed in games or the media in general, not all of us are rabid sex starved dickheads.

it's just unfortunate to see how little faith you have in men.

I never said I don't have faith in men. In fact quite the opposite. However, fact remains that sexual harassment is a problem in today's society. Someone asked what effects the objectification of women in visual media has and I answered. Stop putting words into my mouth.

Do you have any evidence to back this up? Considering how far we've come from the times women were dressed and depicted as this

http://www.enjoy-your-style.com/images/dresden.jpg

I'd say your statement is a little unfounded. And we can look to parts in the world where your statement most definitely falls apart when regarding the sexualization, or in these cases, the unsexualization of women.

Women being undersexualized

Haven't stopped absolutly horrific events like this

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/05/child-rape-victim-forced-marry-attacker-son_n_3875754.html

http://tribune.com.pk/story/593466/cut-into-pieces-she-challenged-gods-orders/

which have become so commonplace in these parts of the world.

The issue with sexual violence has nothing to do with the general sexualzation or the depiction of women, it has to do with assholes being assholes. And those assholes would have been assholes regardless of how women are sexually depicted in media. We have to look at the real root and cause as for why people do deplorable shit and fix those issues with our society, pointing to women being sexualized as a problem and cause for violence is just completely absurd and just does more harm than good. Not to mention it's pretty degrading to women who do flaunt their sexuality confidently who have to deal with this stigma of being objectified, used, part of the problem, giving in to societal demands, etc on a day to day basis.

I'm on my phone but I'll get back to you later with links. As for being undersexualized, I would say that clothing such as what you're showing does as much to sexualize women as anything that shows more skin. It's not just assholes being assholes: those places you're talking about have some really backwards ideas of women and of course that's a reason for the sexualized violence that occurs im those areas.

You assume that I don't flaunt my sexuality or have heard complete strangers talking about how the way I'm dressed means I have it coming to me if I get raped.

There's a difference between objectifiying women and having a healthy view of sexuality. A lot of media does the former.

 

[Kikujiro]

I meant the rape threats, which yes, rape is sexualized violence. Not the graphic death scenes. I don't have a problem with the new Lara's design; from what I've heard it's not a game I would enjoy playing.

That's ok if you don't think the game is for you, but you didn't play the game and you don't know what these "rape threats" are even supposed to be, just because someone shouted rape in some articles it doesn't mean it was true. This is from one of the article I've posted, regarding the "big" issue:

As for that scene, it is true that last year, the game’s executive producer stated plainly that Lara faces characters who “try to rape her,” implying that it was a defining moment in her character development. I don’t have room here to explain the plethora of things that are wrong and insulting about that (and if you really don’t understand, I’d suggest starting here). Thing is, nothing of the sort happens in this game. There is no rape, attempted or otherwise, in Tomb Raider. What does happen is the clip everyone has seen, in which a man strokes Lara’s side and a struggle breaks out. That raised some major red flags for me when I first saw it, but having played the scene in full (several times)…honestly, in a world where those comments had never been made, I doubt I would be writing about it now at all. For those who don’t mind some light spoilers, here’s how it goes down (highlight to read):
<cut>
It is a tense, terrifying experience, made all the worse by having seen firsthand what these people will do to Lara if they find her. And one of them does. He briefly runs his hand down her side and whispers in her ear. If you do nothing, this sharply transitions into him strangling her. If you fight back, and fail, he shoots her in the head. If you succeed, Lara gains control of the gun, and kills him.
The only reactionary thought I had during the scene, even having seen it before, even with months of controversy and concern rattling around in my head, was “Oh shit, get away, he’s going to kill you.”

 

[Scrabble]

I'm on my phone but I'll get back to you later with links. As for being undersexualized, I would say that clothing such as what you're showing does as much to sexualize women as anything that shows more skin. It's not just assholes being assholes: those places you're talking about have some really backwards ideas of women and of course that's a reason for the sexualized violence that occurs im those areas.

You assume that I don't flaunt my sexuality or have heard complete strangers talking about how the way I'm dressed means I have it coming to me if I get raped.

There's a difference between objectifiying women and having a healthy view of sexuality. A lot of media does the former.

Well than that's just factually wrong, I honestly don't know how someone can have that opinion without just playing dumb and totally ignoring any logical reasoning.

And yes, the societal issues of women in those areas goes beyond just some typical dude being an asshole, obviously, but it's why we need to examine what causes these issues in the first place and work towards fixing those. What causes someone to commit murder, what causes someone to rape, what causes someone to inflict any kind of violence, etc. There are underlying issues at play here that go beyond "sexual depiction of women" or "depiction of violence in the media" etc as far too often being used as a scapegoat to avoid addressing real issues like shitty parenting, education, poverty, etc that cause these issues. By pointing to sexual deception of women as an example of objectification or reasons for sexual assault your not only doing more harm than good, but history has shown your reasoning's are just simply not true and completely unfounded.

 

[Anastasia]

After thinking about this more, I wanted to take a sex-positive stance on Quiet's design, but that would require her design to actually be empowering to women, which I don't see. I stated earlier in this thread that I don't take issue with it, but I was focusing on her design from a more insular point-of-view. Even if her appearance makes sense or fits within the context of the Metal Gear Solid universe, that doesn't mean it can't have a negative effect outside of that which people can debate and take issue with.

I tried to touch on this much earlier in the thread, but this gets to the fact that I think it's a complex issue to tackle. Is it sexist to have such a motivation if it leads to women voluntarily cosplaying as the character? I don't know. On the one hand, it doesn't behoove us to look down on a woman that likes the attire or feels empowered by looking sexy, because it might come across as condescending to appear to be trying to save women from themselves. But on the other, one shouldn't discount a more self-interested motive.

Arguably, women may like feeling sexy for their own benefit, and there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe some enjoy having men notice that they are sexy, and there's nothing wrong with that either. But if my prime motivation in an outfit design is "I want to see sexy women dressed like this," I think it's somewhat difficult to argue that the intent is purely empathetic while ignoring completely a manipulative motive perhaps existing.

I also wanted to say that this is an excellent post. There's nothing wrong with sexiness per se; however, when that variable is being controlled and determined by others in such a way that it creates an unrealistic and unfair standard for women, then there is a problem.

 

[Pau]

That's ok if you don't think the game is for you, but you didn't play the game and you don't know what these "rape threats" are even supposed to be, just because someone shouted rape in some articles it doesn't mean it was true. This is from one of the article I've posted, regarding the "big" issue:

Sorry, I took the producer's own words at face value, not just "someone." And I've seen the scene in question. It made me uncomfortable. I'm not saying it has to make everyone feel that way: just that I saw it as sexualized violence and didn't play it for that (but not only that) reason.

 

[Smash]

What it might accomplish is giving female players like me another option of what I want to play as? How is us asking for such a thing any different than any other player talking about wanting more games that fit their wants? Not only that, but diversity in character designs (not just of women) can only lead to good things. But hey, if you want all your video games to be the same...

And yeah, women being so sexualized and objectified in media is part of a larger problem of sexual harassment and sexualized violence.

Spoiler

I find it funny you brought up lingerie shops since I actually shop there with my boyfriend. That's actually frowned upon though by the shops themselves though so I'm not the one with the double standard here.

The notion that sexual violence and harassment against women is the result of media sexualization has the same preposterous basis as the disgusting chauvinist approach that it's the women's fault for sexualizing themselves. I can't believe that some of you believe in this crap. The stupid fucks who can't control themselves and only them are the ones to blame for this.

 

[akidnamededdy]

The notion that sexual violence and harassment against women is the result of media sexualization has the same preposterous basis as the disgusting chauvinist approach that it's the women's fault for sexualizing themselves.

Kind of echoes all the ridiculous "violent games cause violent behavior" sentiment, too, doesn't it?

 

[Romars202129]

Sorry, I took the producer's own words at face value, not just "someone." And I've seen the scene in question. It made me uncomfortable. I'm not saying it has to make everyone feel that way: just that I saw it as sexualized violence and didn't play it for that (but not only that) reason.

I think Tomb Raider is fine, but, I did spend a moment wondering why an action game with a female lead needs death scenes on par with, or even exceding a horror game.

 

[Scrabble]

After thinking about this more, I wanted to take a sex-positive stance on Quiet's design, but that would require her design to actually be empowering to women, which I don't see. I stated earlier in this thread that I don't take issue with it, but I was focusing on her design from a more insular point-of-view. Even if her appearance makes sense or fits within the context of the Metal Gear Solid universe, that doesn't mean it can't have a negative effect outside of that which people can debate and take issue with.



I also wanted to say that this is an excellent post. There's nothing wrong with sexiness per se; however, when that variable is being controlled and determined by others in such a way that it creates an unrealistic and unfair standard for women, then there is a problem.

There are unfair standards and expectations in all facets of life, why should sexualization be held accountable for personal problems, that in most cases extend beyond sexualization in the first place? Again, if something like the sexualization of a character is causing depression, lack of confidence, etc; than there is more than likely something else at play here that goes beyond sexualization that needs looking into.


When a boy has depression and hides it or refuses to seek help because he wants to appear masculine or macho people don't often go and blame something like Terminator or Commando for instilling this false sense of masculinity that every boy growing up has to aspire to. So why then is sexualization held as a scapegoat and a part of the problem for women dealing with self esteem issues or depression?

 

[polyh3dron]

I also wanted to say that this is an excellent post. There's nothing wrong with sexiness per se; however, when that variable is being controlled and determined by others in such a way that it creates an unrealistic and unfair standard for women, then there is a problem.

What kind of solution could there possibly be to this problem?

The creator of this game is male, and he wants to have female characters in his game. He wants one of the female characters to look attractive and to also wear a bikini top in what is most likely a homage to the character Yoko in Gurren Lagann. Throughout the years, Kojima has used characters and actors from movies and TV shows to inspire his characters. Big Boss was Sean Connery originally. Snake was Kyle Reese from Terminator. Gillian Seed was Deckard from Blade Runner. The two Policenauts are obviously Riggs and Murtaugh from Lethal Weapon. How should he go about such an objective for it to not be a problem? He wants to create a female character based on Yoko from Gurren Lagann at least from an aesthetic standpoint. And even then, the character design isn't nearly as buxom as Yoko.

This is the same Kojima who has created some of the greatest female characters in gaming such as The Boss, Eva, Meryl Silverburgh and to a lesser extent the lady who runs the hospital in Policenauts whose name escapes me. They all have definite sexual sides to them (which should not be a problem becase hey, women have sexuality in real life, right?) but they are more fleshed out than most female characters in video games and I would say they are akin to female characters created by Quentin Tarantino and Joss Whedon IMO.

 

[Demon Ice]

As for being undersexualized, I would say that clothing such as what you're showing does as much to sexualize women as anything that shows more skin.

I need to hear the explanation for this.

 

[Pau]

Well than that's just factually wrong, I honestly don't know how someone can have that opinion without just playing dumb and totally ignoring any logical reasoning.

And yes, the societal issues of women in those areas goes beyond just some typical dude being an asshole, obviously, but it's why we need to examine what causes these issues in the first place and work towards fixing those. What causes someone to commit murder, what causes someone to rape, what causes someone to inflict any kind of violence, etc. There are underlying issues at play here that go beyond "sexual depiction of women" or "depiction of violence in the media" etc as far too often being used as a scapegoat to avoid addressing real issues like shitty parenting, education, poverty, etc that cause these issues. By pointing to sexual deception of women as an example of objectification or reasons for sexual assault your not only doing more harm than good, but history has shown your reasoning's are just simply not true and completely unfounded.

I'm not playing dumb. The culture surrounding those women objectifies them and yes, their clothing is part of it. Not covering up is used as an excuse for it to be okay for random men to harass women on the street. In making women cover up because otherwise she'll be too sexual, you are making her a sexual object.

This thread isn't about all the other issues that are part of this problem. But I think to pretend that media and the way women are portrayed in society has nothing to do with the way they are treated is short sighted.

The notion that sexual violence and harassment against women is the result of media sexualization has the same preposterous basis as the disgusting chauvinist approach that it's the women's fault for sexualizing themselves. I can't believe that some of you believe in this crap. The stupid fucks who can't control themselves and only them are the ones to blame for this.

I never said it was the result. I said it was part of a larger problem. If men are bombarded with imagery where women are only seen as sexual objects, is it really that much of a surprise that they'll start treating them as such? It's the exact opposite of the saying that a woman is at fault for the way she dresses. She's not at fault. What's at fault is the culture that says: "It's okay for people to treat you this way because of the way you dress." That's why the term "rape culture" exists. If you truly believe that it's just stupid fucks who can't control themselves, that's kind of depressing. I think a lot can be done to educate men that they are not entitled to women's bodies.

There are unfair standards and expectations in all facets of life, why should sexualization be held accountable for personal problems, that in most cases extend beyond sexualization in the first place? Again, if something like the sexualization of a character is causing depression, lack of confidence, etc; than there is more than likely something else at play here that goes beyond sexualization that needs looking into.


When a boy has depression and hides it or refuses to seek help because he wants to appear masculine or macho people don't often go and blame something like Terminator or Commando for instilling this false sense of masculinity that every boy growing up has to aspire to. So why then is sexualization held as a scapegoat and a part of the problem for women dealing with self esteem issues or depression?

Actually, yes, a lot of masculine studies do point towards problematic depictions of masculinity in media.

 

[The Librarian]

The notion that sexual violence and harassment against women is the result of media sexualization has the same preposterous basis as the disgusting chauvinist approach that it's the women's fault for sexualizing themselves. I can't believe that some of you believe in this crap. The stupid fucks who can't control themselves and only them are the ones to blame for this.

Here.

Virtually every media form studied provides ample evidence of the sexualization of women, including television, music videos, music lyrics, movies, magazines, sports media, video games, the Internet and advertising (e.g., Gow, 1996; Grauerholz & King, 1997; Krassas, Blauwkamp,& Wesselink, 2001, 2003; Lin, 1997; Plous & Neptune, 1997; Vincent, 1989; Ward, 1995). Some studies have examined forms of media that are especially popular with children and adolescents, such as video games and teen-focused magazines.

In study after study, findings have indicated that women more often than men are portrayed in a sexual manner (e.g., dressed in revealing clothing, with bodily postures or facial expressions that imply sexual readiness) and are objectified (e.g., used as a decorative object, or as body parts rather than a whole person). In addition, a narrow (and unrealistic) standard of physical beauty is heavily emphasized. These are the models of femininity presented for young girls to study and emulate.

In some studies, the focus was on the sexualization of female characters across all ages, but most focused specifically on young adult women. Although few studies examined the prevalence of sexualized portrayals of girls in particular, those that have been conducted found that such sexualization does occur and may be increasingly common. For example, O’Donohue, Gold and McKay (1997) coded advertisements over a 40-year period in five magazines targeted to men, women or a general adult readership. Although relatively few (1.5 percent) of the ads portrayed children in a sexualized manner, of those that did, 85 percent sexualized girls rather than boys. Furthermore, the percentage of sexualizing ads increased over time.​

And here.

“Sexualized portrayals of women have been found to legitimize or exacerbate violence against women and girls, as well as sexual harassment and anti-women attitudes among men and boys,” Hatton says. “Such images also have been shown to increase rates of body dissatisfaction and/or eating disorders among men, women and girls; and they have even been shown to decrease sexual satisfaction among both men and women.”​