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[Ratrat]

I tried to touch on this much earlier in the thread, but this gets to the fact that I think it's a complex issue to tackle. Is it sexist to have such a motivation if it leads to women voluntarily cosplaying as the character? I don't know. On the one hand, it doesn't behoove us to look down on a woman that likes the attire or feels empowered by looking sexy, because it might come across as condescending to appear to be trying to save women from themselves. But on the other, one shouldn't discount a more self-interested motive.

Arguably, women may like feeling sexy for their own benefit, and there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe some enjoy having men notice that they are sexy, and there's nothing wrong with that either. But if my prime motivation in an outfit design is "I want to see sexy women dressed like this," I think it's somewhat difficult to argue that the intent is purely empathetic while ignoring completely a manipulative motive perhaps existing.

I doubt it's purely empathetic if he also wants to sell merchandise, it's more of a business move probably. I'd put the personal gratification low on the list of motives but I guess that's impossible to know unless someone asks him on twitter. If it was his prime motive that would be weird and immature.

 

[Sorral]

More or less. It's really pathetic.



I don't think anyone's written an intelligent post worth reading where the point was to point out platform allegiance or bias. They are inherently unintelligent posts. Best to just ignore them.

That's rather true. Something I should keep in mind for the future...

Also, I do agree on the reactions being pathetic. You would think people would start to learn after it happened so many times now, but in reality? Not even close.
I guess it does make sense why so many developers are rather quiet.

 

[The Librarian]

I tried to touch on this much earlier in the thread, but this gets to the fact that I think it's a complex issue to tackle. Is it sexist to have such a motivation if it leads to women voluntarily cosplaying as the character? I don't know. On the one hand, it doesn't behoove us to look down on a woman that likes the attire or feels empowered by looking sexy, because it might come across as condescending to appear to be trying to save women from themselves. But on the other, one shouldn't discount a more self-interested motive.

Arguably, women may like feeling sexy for their own benefit, and there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe some enjoy having men notice that they are sexy, and there's nothing wrong with that either. But if my prime motivation in an outfit design is "I want to see sexy women dressed like this," I think it's somewhat difficult to argue that the intent is purely empathetic while ignoring completely a manipulative motive perhaps existing.

To add to this, some women may cosplay scantily-clad characters because they find it fun. Sometimes, with an outfit I wear, I like to show a bra strap or the tippy top of my underwear when wearing jeans. It's not because I'm trying to get attention, it's because I think it's cute with some outfits.

 

[Demon Ice]

Why would having a "story reason" for her being half-naked change anything? "mega lulz" indeed. Once again, if I write a story with a 12 year old loli having sex with a 45 year old man, and tell you that the little girl is actually an immortal 200 years old elf, does that make it not creepy because "it's justified in the story"? -_-

Yeah that's the same as wearing a bikini.

-_-

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Yeah that's the same as wearing a bikini.

-_-

It's not, I'm just pointing out it's a fallacious argument.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Yes, it does. If two demographics respond differently to something in art, than it's inequal in art.

It doesn't take much to see that most of the "sexy men" in the series are thrown in for laughs (as has been pointed out ad infinitum), whereas Quiet is designed to be "erotic". This isn't even an opinion, because Kojima himself has said that she's designed to look extra "erotic"; people are conveniently skipping over his own comments.

But part of it was done as a business move, I mean, with Raiden.

The whole "girls wanted a cute guy instead of a gruff character like Snake" thing.

 

[Pyccko]

So wait, I'm confused. Kojima said the the character was designed to be cosplayed, then I thought he had a tweet saying she was uncosplayable, then he tweeted the butt picture. As in, "This is probably too much, right cosplayers?" Is that how it went? This is hard to keep track of.

 

[RK9039]

So wait, I'm confused. Kojima said the the character was designed to be cosplayed, then I thought he had a tweet saying she was uncosplayable, then he tweeted the butt picture. As in, "This is probably too much, right cosplayers?" Is that how it went? This is hard to keep track of.

Yes that's what he said, as some people pointed out. Then he said he wants to see Skull Face cosplayers the most.

 

[udivision]

I tried to touch on this much earlier in the thread, but this gets to the fact that I think it's a complex issue to tackle. Is it sexist to have such a motivation if it leads to women voluntarily cosplaying as the character? I don't know. On the one hand, it doesn't behoove us to look down on a woman that likes the attire or feels empowered by looking sexy, because it might come across as condescending to appear to be trying to save women from themselves. But on the other, one shouldn't discount a more self-interested motive.

Arguably, women may like feeling sexy for their own benefit, and there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe some enjoy having men notice that they are sexy, and there's nothing wrong with that either. But if my prime motivation in an outfit design is "I want to see sexy women dressed like this," I think it's somewhat difficult to argue that the intent is purely empathetic while ignoring completely a manipulative motive perhaps existing.

It's a complex issue, people love blanket statements, and without resorting to exaggeration, a less involved person can point out the irony that both sides of these types of debates can come off as sexist. It's probably why these types of threads get so big, so often.

 

[Demon Ice]

It's not, I'm just pointing out it's a fallacious argument.

So because of the whole loli 12 year old x 45 year old man thing, there is automatically no reasonable way that Quiet's clothing could be explained in the game?

And again, that example is as extreme in your eyes as a grown woman wearing a bikini?

k.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

So because of the whole loli 12 year old x 45 year old man thing, there is automatically no reasonable way that Quiet's clothing could be explained in the game?

No. Once again, I'm pointing out that having in-story "justifications" for having something, doesn't make that something any less sexist/racist/whatever is offensive or annoying or obnoxious to people.

And again, that example is as extreme in your eyes as a grown woman wearing a bikini?

It's quite amazing that despite having already said otherwise, you persist in attributing this argument to me. I guess that's what happens when you run out of arguments.

 

[RK9039]

Kojima (translated):

It seems that some people are apprehensive about the "quiet", but it is all right. She is what gave birth as antithesis to the overexposure fighting game series female characters of the past. Just like this time, she does not have the words, is derided from the surroundings in the story. However, if you know the secrets of the exposure, you will be ashamed that behavior.

Interesting.

ed: Here's the tweet if anyone wanted to know: https://twitter.com/Kojima_Hideo/status/376400536607539200

 

[polyh3dron]

YOU WILL BE ASHAMED

 

[Jobbs]

we've had girls in bikinis for the purpose of titillation in tv, movies, music videos, and commercials since before I was born. And it's not new in video games either. I guess I just don't get what the big deal or controversy is. Is the game silly and a bit juvenile? Yes, but that's also completely nothing new for MGS games. If sexy outfits and sexual situations offend you, how have you ever gotten through any MGS game? If it's not for you, it's not for you. But really, who gives a shit? What are we arguing about?

Just.. not.. getting... it...

 

[Scooter]

I feel like this is counterproductive to the conversation in the same way that calling people that like Quiet's design sex-starved manbabies is. I think both display a wanton dismissal of any nuance that either side might be arguing in favor derision that only makes these conversations more adversarial than they need to be.

Calling a spade a spade is not counter productive, that kind of feminism is up to its neck in puritanism and sexual repression, and you know what, I have no problem calling me a sex-starved manbaby, it's certainly a way of looking at it and I find it kind of funny. What's completely non-sensical though and annoys me to no end is calling me a sexist because I either don't have a problem with or like looking at sexually attractive women with as little clothing as possible.

That offends me and it's nothing more than an attempt to create sexual guilt, the only difference between those kind of feminists and conservatives is that conservatives are at least honest to themselves about their intentions.

 

[Oersted]

Do some Gaffers still not realize the difference between the choice of a Cosplayer what she/he wants to wear, and the choice of a game designer what the game character has to wear?

 

[Booshka]

YOU WILL BE ASHAMED

fucking lol.

IT WILL BE EXPLAINED, YOU WILL BE ASHAMED.

 

[Karkador]

Which brings us back to the part where supposed feminists want to protect the helpless cosplayers. And yes, it says a lot about how men want women to dress, they're sexually active males of course they'd want that. So you're expecting males to feel guilty because they want to see semi naked women and women to feel degraded because they, as consenting and self-aware adults, decided to dress in a way very attractive to men.

And all that guilt and presumed degradation for something as natural as sexual attraction. Puritanism is really fucked up.

It's really hard to argue with someone who is covering their ears (or eyes, in this case) and yelling "puritanism". Someone tried to explain to you why a real female dressing herself (or undressing herself) is not the same thing as a female character being made by men to look this way. I tried expanding their point for the benefit of your understanding. Your eyes apparently glazed over and you went on about puritanism instead.

You are very confused if you think I'm arguing from that kind of standpoint, or making any sort of moral argument. Trying to reduce the argument this way is adding nothing to the conversation and it really doesn't make you any better than the guy calling other people "manbabies".

I'll also add that it sounds like you're defining male sexuality as "seeing women be sexy", and female sexuality as "being sexy".

Yes, here we go again ignoring that the so called feminists are promoting puritanism through their supposed activism. Like them using moronic terms like objectification for anything involving sexual attraction in the age where my girlfriend was pausing True Blood to see Skarsgard's dick. OMG objectification! Or isn't it because only males can do it? This shit is why this kind of puritanical feminists are considered a joke especially by progressive societies.

Did you just hear these words you're using somewhere and decide to use them for whatever?

Really? Are you serious? This seems to be a personal issue of yours. Quiet standing up, and suddenly she's just a sexual object and even getting tortured is secondary? That's seriously your problem If that's how you're viewing the character. And fortunately for alot of people, and for the characters in the game, the things they do aren't secondary.

Right, it's called an opinion, and a criticism. For me, the way characters (as well as people) get introduced leaves a big impression.

And I noted in your other comment, about how women should feel because a sexual, fictional character is being pushed on them...yeah buddy, in real life it's much much worse. Opening up the tabloids or looking at billboards it gets pushed on you.

"How women should feel" is not what I actually said. I'm simply describing what already exists. But yeah, tabloids and billboards certainly contribute their share, too. How are videogames not a part of that same "real life"?

Also mega lulz if she does end up having some sort of supernatural skin-based ability like photosynthesis or camouflage. That means that there will actually be a legit reason for her to be dressed like that, and Cortana still has no reason for being naked. Except to attract the 13 year old COD fanbase.

Honestly, if she has magic skin that gives her Octo-camo abilities, it would make more sense for her to be completely naked, or at least without the stockings (as I imagine that would disrupt the illusion quite a bit). Either way you put it, it feels like there's more fetishistic form over function with her design.

 

[aHebrewMenagerie]

Do some Gaffers still not realize the difference between the choice of a Cosplayer what she/he wants to wear, and the choice of a game designer what the game character has to wear?

Yeah, one is a conscious choice and the other is A FUCKING GAME CHARACTER.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Kojima (translated):



Interesting.

ed: Here's the tweet if anyone wanted to know: https://twitter.com/Kojima_Hideo/status/376400536607539200

What really gets me is when people judge on appearances of a character. We all remember Bayonetta. How the cover is this sexy, tall, giraffe of a girl posing all, well, sexy like.

Then when you actually sit down with the game, it proceeds to subvert a lot of tropes and actually reveals a decent character.

I assume that's what he's doing here. There's kinda of an explanation for her bare-ness above. We really don't need to suffocate what women want to do with their bodies (don't you dare giggle) just because it looks bad at first glance..

 

[Scooter]

It's really hard to argue with someone who is covering their ears (or eyes, in this case) and yelling "puritanism". Someone tried to explain to you why a real female dressing herself (or undressing herself) is not the same thing as a female character being made by men to look this way. I tried expanding their point for the benefit of your understanding. Your eyes apparently glazed over and you went on about puritanism instead.

You are very confused if you think I'm arguing from that kind of standpoint, or making any sort of moral argument. Trying to reduce the argument this way is adding nothing to the conversation and it really doesn't make you any better than the guy calling other people "manbabies".

Does the designer with his evil male powers force those cosplayers to wear those outfits? Or is he brainwashing women to dress a certain way? Other than sexual repression I see no other reason why characters in skimpy outfits are so stigmatized.

It's like saying that Grey's Anatomy and chick flicks that portray unrealistic and idealized versions of men are sexist because they're trying to control in a way how men should think, behave and look. Absurd.

Did you just hear these words you're using somewhere and decide to use them for whatever?

Yes, I read that annoying term in the post I quoted. You should read it.

 

[Gskyace]

I guess there is a difference in Easten and Westen.
Anyway, they do what they like, don't they.

 

[NotLiquid]

Kojima's tweets are on the English Twitter now.
https://twitter.com/HIDEO_KOJIMA_EN

 

[Nibel]

HIDEO_KOJIMA ‏@HIDEO_KOJIMA_EN 3m
(Cont) But once you recognize the secret reason for her exposure, you will feel ashamed of your words & deeds.

HIDEO_KOJIMA ‏@HIDEO_KOJIMA_EN 3m
appeared in the past fighting game who are excessively exposed. "Quiet" who doesn't have a word will be teased in the story as well. (Cont)
me they requires 700 teensies?

HIDEO_KOJIMA ‏@HIDEO_KOJIMA_EN 4m
I know there's people concerning about "Quiet" but don't worry. I created her character as an antithesis to the women characters (cont)

Just tweeted

 

[Rogue Agent]

"The themes of Metal Gear Solid V are “GENE” ⇒ “MEME” ⇒ “SCENE” ⇒ “PEACE” ⇒ “RACE”. It touches misunderstandings that happen due to the differences in ethnicity, language, traditions, culture, taste and because of discrimination, hatred and conflict. The reaction to Quiet that was instigated on the net is partly due to that, and it’s exactly what Metal Gear Solid V is about." - Kojima

 

[Sub_Level]

YOU WILL BE ASHAMED

I don't know how much you know about MGSV, but honor and shame are huge parts of it.

 

[Cartman86]

The possibility that she was tortured and lost her clothing or whatever other possible reasons was always there, but if you are apparently aware of how video game women are normally portrayed then why "advertise" your game in such a poor way? How can you be so tone deaf?

 

[Cartman86]

"The themes of Metal Gear Solid V are “GENE” ⇒ “MEME” ⇒ “SCENE” ⇒ “PEACE” ⇒ “RACE”. It touches misunderstandings that happen due to the differences in ethnicity, language, traditions, culture, taste and because of discrimination, hatred and conflict. The reaction to Quiet that was instigated on the net is partly due to that, and it’s exactly what Metal Gear Solid V is about." - Kojima

Hahahahah seriously? Give me a break. Even if it were true why show none of that? Why not wait for the full game to show those things so people can get more of the context? To troll people? If so fuck you.

 

[TheSpoiler]

The possibility that she was tortured and lost her clothing or whatever other reason was always there, but if you are apparently aware of how video game women are normally portrayed then why "advertise" your game in such a poor way? How can you be so tone deaf?

Because appearance doesn't equate to portrayal. You have plenty of characters in video games that look stupid/sexist/foolish, but then they turn out to be a breathe of fresh air.

Edit: OOPS! Forgot to mention that the voice actor?/model used for Quiet said she has to bear part of her skin for her ability. So it's not just "PLEASE LOOK AT MY CHEST PLEASE UNDERSTAND", and even then, unless the character is some vapid, weak-willed person, there is nothing wrong with a female being sexy.

 

[legacyzero]

EDIT: Beaten.

 

[The Librarian]

Does the designer with his evil male powers force those cosplayers to wear those outfits? Or is he brainwashing women to dress a certain way? Other than sexual repression I see no other reason why characters in skimpy outfits are so stigmatized.

It's like saying that Grey's Anatomy and chick flicks that portray unrealistic and idealized versions of men are sexist because they're trying to control in a way how men should think, behave and look. Absurd.

I think one of the things in this thread that makes it harder to discuss the issue of sexualization in gaming is that sexualuzation of men and women are thrown around as if they were equal things. They're not. Women are more sexualized than men across all forms of entertainment. It doesn't really help anyone, nor excuse anything, when you point out an instance of men being sexualized given the huge bias towards women with the issue. It's something to keep in mind, sure, but it's not really a rebuttal.

 

[Karkador]

Does the designer with his evil male powers force those cosplayers to wear those outfits? Is he trying to brainwash women to dress a certain way? Other than sexual repression I see no other reason why characters in skimpy outfits are so stigmatized.

Let me clarify for you:

I'm not talking about cosplayers at all. I haven't mentioned them a single time. My comments are directed at people saying "well, why can't a girl dress sexy if she feels like it?", as if fictional characters are somehow "dressing themselves" out of their own autonomy and that's totally the same thing as any real-life girl wearing whatever she likes. This is a point that comes up time and time again in these threads, even though the correlation is not there and the argument is bad.

It's like saying that Grey's Anatomy and chick flicks that portray unrealistic and idealized versions of men are sexist because they're trying to control in a way how men should think, behave and look. Absurd.

There isn't a problem with unrealistic/idealized/sexualized depictions of people. Just giving me a handful of examples either way is not "sexism", one way or the other. It's an aggregate condition across the medium. The actual problem, the part we call sexism (can I even say this word without making you feel uncomfortable?) is that the tendency and the manner for doing that to women is way more than for men. The fact that you can specifically point to a genre (chick flicks) as the unique place where men get idealized/sexualized says it all, as women get that treatment everywhere.

 

[Vire]

EDIT: Beaten.

Sounds like Major Nelson levels of horseshit.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Let me clarify for you:

I'm not talking about cosplayers at all. I haven't mentioned them a single time. My comments are directed at people saying "well, why can't a girl dress sexy if she feels like it?", as if fictional characters are somehow "dressing themselves" out of their own autonomy and that's totally the same thing as any real-life girl wearing whatever she likes. This is a point that comes up time and time again in these threads, even though the correlation is not there and the argument is bad.

So video game characters cannot be sexy because that would be offensive to real people? Why can't games emulate life?

 

[Cartman86]

Because appearance doesn't equate to portrayal. You have plenty of characters in video games that look stupid/sexist/foolish, but then they turn out to be a breathe of fresh air.

My point is if he is so aware of how female "fighting" game characters are portrayed what does he expect us to think when he decides to release a video focused on the scanning tech featuring a woman who plays a sniper barely clothed in the desert? Then they release high res pictures of her from all angles. He says he is aware of it and somehow managed to fuck it up.

In the full game she could be a great character. I can think of plenty of ways to turn something like that into a positive if I were so inclined to believe this industry did that very often. This isn't a smart way to set that up though. Telling people they will be ashamed? Fuck off. Make your fucking game, be smart in advertising it and maybe people won't criticize it in a way you don't like.

Spoiler

Assuming those translations are accurate

 

[Karkador]

So video game characters cannot be sexy because that would be offensive to real people? Why can't games emulate life?

This has already been answered in this thread many times: because it's Metal Gear Solid

 

[Hindle]

What do the women on Gaf think of Quiets design? Also Is it offensive to you?

 

[TheSpoiler]

My point is if he is so aware of how female "fighting" game characters are portrayed what does he expect us to think when he decides to release a video focused on the scanning tech featuring a woman who plays a sniper barely clothed in the desert? Then they release high res pictures of her from all angles. He says he is aware of it and somehow managed to fuck it up.

In the full game she could be a great character. I can think of plenty of ways to turn something like that into a positive if I were so inclined to believe this industry did that very often. This isn't a smart way to set that up though. Telling people they will be ashamed? Fuck off. Make your fucking game, be smart in advertising it and maybe people won't criticize it in a way you don't like.

Let's be honest: most fighting games don't have a reason for their dress code. As much as I love Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, etc, the usage of their characters isn't exactly deep.

(To SF's credit, it seems to be almost parodying itself, but yeah.).

What he's getting at, and what I'm getting at too, is that fighting games sold many of their games on sex appeal, and those characters were mostly nothing more than a pair of bouncing boobs. Expectations apply, but the genre was bad. This differs from someone making a character that has a reason to dress the way she does, and has depth instead of being just a pair of something.


Telling us to be ashamed isn't the best choice of words, but guess what? Being reactionary (and really, outright assuming the worst instead of being objective) isn't the right way to respond to a character. He's going to set this character up. She has a reason to dress the way she does. But nobody is going to care about that shit because they see what she looks like and assume the worst, even though evidence points the other way.

Here's the deal. Bayonetta was the same way, and it got creamed by forum goers. The adverts were bad, and not a lot of people "got" what it was trying to do until they actually played it. In highlight, it didn't deserve the hate.

I feel bad that you are so jaded by the industry that you won't trust what it will and won't do, but I'm thinking about just taking it case by case and really analyzing things instead of writing them off.

No offense to all, but I believe I'm done with this conversation already. Good day.

 

[ShinMaruku]

I think this all points to Kojima is trolling us all again. I know big fun got trolled.

 

[Demon Ice]

No. Once again, I'm pointing out that having in-story "justifications" for having something, doesn't make that something any less sexist/racist/whatever is offensive or annoying or obnoxious to people.


It's quite amazing that despite having already said otherwise, you persist in attributing this argument to me. I guess that's what happens when you run out of arguments.

Yes, except the whole 12 year old on a 45 year old would be disturbing, regardless of story context.

A woman who wears a bikini is not disturbing, except to the people who desperately want it to be sexist so they have something to complain about with their excess of free time.

Do you see why your example was shit?

Reminds me of the whole Bros Before Hoes trophy white knight faux-outrage. The horror.

 

[Scooter]

I think one of the things in this thread that makes it harder to discuss the issue of sexualization in gaming is that sexualuzation of men and women are thrown around as if they were equal things. They're not. Women are more sexualized than men across all forms of entertainment. It doesn't really help anyone, nor excuse anything, when you point out an instance of men being sexualized given the huge bias towards women with the issue. It's something to keep in mind, sure, but it's not really a rebuttal.

That's because men are more "sexually-starved" as some people put it here, not because of some male conspiracy to "degrade" women more than men. It's what the customer wants and there's nothing wrong with that if you don't consider sex as something degrading or wrong. Just like women create these unrealistic male characters that are have the perfect character, financial status and abs in chick flicks.

How are you guys not getting this? Males are visual creatures so producers create visually appealing females, there's nothing wrong with that, stop trying to create sexual guilt because humans are the way they are.

 

[The Librarian]

That's because men are more "sexually-starved" as some people put it here, not because of some male conspiracy to "degrade" women more than men. It's what the customer wants and there's nothing wrong with that if you don't consider sex as something degrading or wrong. Just like women create these unrealistic male characters that are have the perfect character, financial status and abs in chick flicks.

How are you guys not getting this? Males are visual creatures so producers create visually appealing females, there's nothing wrong with that, stop trying to create sexual guilt because humans are the way they are.

Men are not "sexually starved." That's a poor excuse on many levels, and not a justification for how women's bodies are treated. Men can control their sexual urges; it's not that hard. Are you gonna soon tell me that me being harassed earlier this week is because men are sexually starved?

 

[Karkador]

That's because men are more "sexually-starved" as some people put it here, not because of some male conspiracy to "degrade" women more than men. It's what the customer wants and there's nothing wrong with that if you don't consider sex as something degrading or wrong. Just like women create these unrealistic male characters that are have the perfect character, financial status and abs in chick flicks.

How are you guys not getting this? Males are visual creatures so producers create visually appealing females, there's nothing wrong with that, stop trying to create sexual guilt because humans are the way they are.

I thought you were supposed to be arguing that sexism doesn't exist

 

[Romars202129]

Yes, it does. If two demographics respond differently to something in art, than it's inequal in art.

It doesn't take much to see that most of the "sexy men" in the series are thrown in for laughs (as has been pointed out ad infinitum), whereas Quiet is designed to be "erotic". This isn't even an opinion, because Kojima himself has said that she's designed to look extra "erotic"; people are conveniently skipping over his own comments.

It's already been confirmed Raiden was created to be erotic, a direct quote from character designer Shinkawa. He wanted him to be 'universally' sexy, lol.
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=de2ccb8ca8943c06669720e0a267a9f6&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.neogaf.com%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D670945%26page%3D54&v=1&libId=57ced005-7732-4740-9caf-dfd930e39923&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.konami.jp%2Fgs%2Fgame%2Fmgs2%2Fart%2Fthird.html&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.neogaf.com%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D670945%26page%3D55&title=Halo%204%20Designer%20Calls%20Out%20Kojima%20on%20Sex%20(Pot%20to%20Kettle%3A%20%22You%20are%20blue!%22)%20-%20Page%2054%20-%20NeoGAF&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.konami.jp%2Fgs%2Fgame%2Fmgs2%2Fart%2Fthird.html&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13785850543026
But, like I said, that wasn't this guys point, imo. His point seemed to be that even if you had men and women oversexualized, it wouldn't be the same based solely on our own prejudices. And if you agree with that, then there is no point to this discussion.
You just have a problem with oversexualized women.

 

[Scooter]

Men are not "sexually starved." That's a poor excuse on many levels, and not a justification for how women's bodies are treated. Men can control their sexual urges; it's not that hard. Are you gonna soon tell me that me being harassed earlier this week is because men are sexually starved?

Ugh, men are supposed to "control their sexual urges" because they want to look at sexually attractive women more than women want to look at sexually attractive men? Since when did women become the standard which men should abide to?

The comparison between that and sexual harassment that actually victimizes people is ridiculous btw. Totally uncalled for.

I thought you were supposed to be arguing that sexism doesn't exist

... what?

 

[CrimsonCrescendo]

That's because men are more "sexually-starved" as some people put it here, not because of some male conspiracy to "degrade" women more than men. It's what the customer wants and there's nothing wrong with that if you don't consider sex as something degrading or wrong. Just like women create these unrealistic male characters that are have the perfect character, financial status and abs in chick flicks.

How are you guys not getting this? Males are visual creatures so producers create visually appealing females, there's nothing wrong with that, stop trying to create sexual guilt because humans are the way they are.

Umm... wow. Okay.

We are agreed on the fact that women can wear whatever the fuck they want to wear, but are you seriously going with the defense "men can't help themselves because they are men"? This is seriously coming across as more of a "I do it, I like it, and therefore if anyone says anything, I'll raise hell since I can't possibly be wrong. Anyone who disagrees is wrong" kinda thing than anything else.

 

[Romars202129]

Ugh, men are supposed to "control their sexual urges" because they want to look at sexually attractive women more than women want to look at sexually attractive men? Since when did women become the standard which men should abide to?

The comparison between that and sexual harassment that actually victimizes people is ridiculous btw. Totally uncalled for.




... what?

See, to him, we're sexists by association for defending Kojima, lol.

 

[Karkador]

Ugh, men are supposed to "control their sexual urges" because they want to look at sexually attractive women more than women want to look at sexually attractive men? Since when did women become the standard which men should abide to?

The comparison between that and sexual harassment that actually victimizes people is ridiculous btw. Totally uncalled for.

You're the one putting this in terms of "this is what sex-starved men want, why is that a bad thing"

 

[Pau]

Ugh, men are supposed to "control their sexual urges" because they want to look at sexually attractive women more than women want to look at sexually attractive men? Since when did women become the standard which men should abide to?

The comparison between that and sexual harassment that actually victimizes people is ridiculous btw. Totally uncalled for.

Umm what?

I think you'll find it's more that men feel entitled to always look (and interact with) women in a sexual manner. That's why Dax brought up the sexual harassment. Women do not exist solely to be eye candy for men. Which is why so many designs catering to that idea are disappointing in this medium.

 

[The Librarian]

Ugh, men are supposed to "control their sexual urges" because they want to look at sexually attractive women more than women want to look at sexually attractive men? Since when did women become the standard which men should abide to?

The comparison between that and sexual harassment that actually victimizes people is ridiculous btw. Totally uncalled for.

The way that women are so often harassed is linked to how society treats their bodies. You're saying that men are sexually starved and that's why women are so often sexualized. I'm saying that's a poor excuse, and can be used as a response to all sorts of sexism women experience. I am not saying sexualization is bad and should be banned in all circumstances. That's ridiculous.