Support NeoGAF

[blue_phazon]

Yeah I never take understood the hate Gore ground pound. It's easy to avoid, can lead to some fun moments where you save yourself from falling off, is fun to watch, etc.

My only issue is that it shouldn't completely strip shields if you ground pound from a low height

 

[Fuchsdh]

How does GP affect map design? I haven't given that one much thought. Curious what you are thinking.

I totally get clamber. It ruins not only map design/flow, but it frequently nullifies the nerf to sprint.

I guess GP affects map design if you assume that the maps are made more vertical for ground pound, but Halo has had plenty of similar maps and I don't think H5's selection is atypical in terms of elevation.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

I guess GP affects map design if you assume that the maps are made more vertical for ground pound, but Halo has had plenty of similar maps and I don't think H5's selection is atypical in terms of elevation.

Yeah I agree. I think clamber would be the one that creates vertical paths that are atypical of Halo. I use Truth as an example of how SA's have (imo) negatively impacted core Halo map design, but they even created a hop up from bottom mid to top mid. The vertical nature of the map was originally there, but that was supposed to be leveraged by team work as a positional advantage you have to earn and fight for.

 

[TCKaos]

My thoughts exactly

GP and clamber are the reason for uninspiring map design.

Howso? I mean, what do they do other than promote verticality in a way conducive to the sandbox? I mean, it'd be one thing if we were still talking about the jetpack, which broke the game so heavily that it became a necessary tool since it could get you anywhere from point A to point B with no effort. Clamber helps you make jumps that you're not good enough to crouch jump but punishes you with an animation. There's virtually no clamber jump that you couldn't make by crouch jumping, all it does is make it easier for bad players to navigate these spaces. It also allows for more skilled jumps that incorporate crouch jumping and smart scope - there are a bunch of these on Plaza, for instance, where you can jump from bottom mid to a bridge, or up to a ledge by the plaza proper.

Similarly, ground pound doesn't really effect map design. It's not like things are more vertical because of it - you can get GPs on Block Pit (which plays identically to The Pit) or on Truth (which plays pretty identically to Midship) and so on. It's also incredibly easy to counter because of how easy it is to detect that you're getting ground pounded which is why the Icarus bug was such a huge problem. You gotta charge it up, and you can easily be heard when that happens, and you're functionally defenseless in the air, and if you miss you have to come out of the animation before you can fight back.

Like, can you point to map design decisions that are apparently informed by these mechanics? Are more maps with vertical walkways that you can dive from really a terrible thing? Prisoner, Hang 'Em High, Battle Creek, Chill Out, Ivory Tower, Lockout, Ascension, Headlong, Guardian, The Pit, and so on and so forth all have massive overhead locations that you could ground pound from or clamber to, and I don't know if you've played them in Halo 5, but they play pretty much identically to how they used to. Would Plaza, Coliseum, and Fathom play that differently if you couldn't ground pound or clamber?

I'm sure that you could take that statement and then just assert "Well if it doesn't change anything, then why not remove it?" It's because it adds interesting mechanics that don't detract from the integrity of the gameplay, which is pretty much the ideal gameplay evolution from sequel to sequel. It's fun and interesting and isn't negative, which is what everyone wants.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Yeah, I can see the arguments against all the other SAs (even if I don't agree with them), but Ground Pound is basically harmless. It's a fun tool for styling on people or making big risk/reward plays at a more casual level. Plus, it's just fun to use.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

Yeah, I can see the arguments against all the other SAs (even if I don't agree with them), but Ground Pound is basically harmless. It's a fun tool for styling on people or making big risk/reward plays at a more casual level. Plus, it's just fun to use.

Yeah. Ground pound is one of those things that looks incredibly stupid and doesn't make much sense why it's there, but is a lot of fun to use.

The splash damage needs to be nerfed though imo.

 

[Gwyn]

So no sprint/gp/clamber/slide/sc/stabilize only thrusters in h6? not gonna happen

About clamber, wouldn't it be better if they designed maps around jump+crouch but still let clamber in for casuals?
Also slide can be added if you crouch mid or after thrust if they remove sprint

 

[Fahzgoolin]

So no sprint/gp/clamber/slide/sc/stabilize only thrusters in h6? not gonna happen

About clamber, wouldn't it be better if they designed maps around jump+crouch but still let clamber in for casuals?
Also slide can be added if you crouch mid or after thrust if they remove sprint

If they keep clamber I'd like if they slowed it down, but nearly all jump spots are made viable for crouch jumping.

That way you can still have that accessibility, but give skill jumps and dedicated fans a leg up.

Or even more punishing, what if shooting someone while clambering made them slow down more or even lose their grip?

 

[Gwyn]

If they keep clamber I'd like if they slowed it down, but nearly all jump spots are made viable for crouch jumping.

That way you can still have that accessibility, but give skill jumps and dedicated fans a leg up.

Or even more punishing, what if shooting someone while clambering made them slow down more or even lose their grip?

Not sure if punishing casuals is the right way to make the game more accesible, if they choose to clamber they won't be able to shoot and it's slower that's enough imo.

Like 80-90% of the players fall into the casual crowd so pissing them off not really a smart idea.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

Not sure if punishing casuals is the right way to make the game more accesible, if they choose to clamber they won't be able to shoot and it's slower that's enough imo.

Like 80-90% of the players fall into the casual crowd so pissing them off not really a smart idea.

It's not punishing casuals in a negative sense I don't think. It's keeping the easy climb button in, but actually balancing it. Like sprint/shields, descope, etc.

Don't think casuals would see it that way.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

I don't think making clamber slower is the best way to balance it. If you're gonna have sprint, clamber, etc., might as well have those movement options fast and fluid instead of slow and clunky, otherwise just remove them.

 

[Gwyn]

It's not punishing casuals in a negative sense I don't think. It's keeping the easy climb button in, but actually balancing it. Like sprint/shields, descope, etc.

Don't think casuals would see it that way.

The point is to make the game simple and easy to play but hard to master.
Having all these different "rules" like sprint/shield, descope, clamber/slow animation or whatever is the opposite.

I really hope they
-remove sprint and spartan charge
-slighly increase bms (10%?)
-remove ads from most weapons
-bring back classic scope or at least give the option to choose
-dev btb maps
-more game modes day 1
-classic FF instead of huge ass map where you run around looking for enemies
-bring back some old classic arena/btb maps

 

[jem0208]

I'd like to see the ability to clamber backwards.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

I don't think making clamber slower is the best way to balance it. If you're gonna have sprint, clamber, etc., might as well have those movement options fast and fluid instead of slow and clunky, otherwise just remove them.

I agree, but I doubt 343 would be so bold as to make the right choice

I'd like to see the ability to clamber backwards.

Literally hang on with your butts.

Nah, let's not destroy Halo more Jem.

W/e it's become clear people even here seem to favor arbitrary core changes. Sigh. Time to go to the angry Team Beyond forum

Spoiler

I'm excited for Halo 6's refinements

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

-dev btb maps
-classic FF instead of huge ass map where you run around looking for enemies
-bring back some old classic arena/btb maps

Warzone, Warzone Assault, Arena 4v4, BTB, classic Firefight*, Invasion* -- That's six separate modes that use unique maps/layouts, which is a lot to develop. Should we be expecting a sufficient map count for each of these modes? Even if you exclude classic Firefight and Invasion (which may be a long shot to expect its inclusion anyway), the rest would need more than just a few maps to please people.

343 needs to pull a rabbit out of a hat to please everyone with Halo 6, I'll tell you that. If we had to get remixes for Halo 5 despite the successful microtransactions, what hope is there for dev-made BTB maps when they have to create enough content to cover the criticisms people lobbied over Halo 5's maps in general? Don't like remixes? Well expect more unless you think 343 is somehow going to give us 30+ maps that aren't created in Forge to cover these modes.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Warzone, Warzone Assault, Arena 4v4, BTB, classic Firefight*, Invasion* -- That's six separate modes that use unique maps/layouts, which is a lot to develop. Should we be expecting a sufficient map count for each of these modes? Even if you exclude classic Firefight and Invasion (which may be a long shot to expect its inclusion anyway), the rest would need more than just a few maps to please people.

343 needs to pull a rabbit out of a hat to please everyone with Halo 6, I'll tell you that. If we had to get remixes for Halo 5 despite the successful microtransactions, what hope is there for dev-made BTB maps when they have to create enough content to cover the criticisms people lobbied over Halo 5's maps in general? Don't like remixes? Well expect more unless you think 343 is somehow going to give us 30+ maps that aren't created in Forge to cover these modes.

I think doing more tailored WZ maps would still fulfill the need for a survival-focused WZ experience, without requiring all-new maps. Apex's spire, Sanctum's Temple, and the Monument on Noctus would all work as the holdout location. Just clear out some of surrounding geometry so you can see enemies dropping in.

As for Forge maps, bring them on. My only complaint is the process it takes to get new maps in and out of the game modes, rather than their presence or even quality.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

halo 6

2160p 60fps [scorpio] with 120fps available on the PC

Spoiler

forge

version

 

[Welfare]

Get rid of sprint, increase movement speed, and map everything to the thruster. Make thrust a chargeable ability but keep the wait time between each use.

Single press - Normal thrust
Hold press - longer thrust, temporary boost in movement speed until next thrust is available
Hold press, jump - Jump in air to set up deadly ground pound
Hold press, melee - Spartan charge
Hold press, crouch - Slide

I fixed Halo 6

 

[Forerunner]

Nah, fuck Spartan Charge. Throw that shit in the trash where it belongs.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

Nah, fuck Spartan Charge. Throw that shit in the trash where it belongs.

Yeah i agree

 

[blue_phazon]

Spartan Charge would be completely fine if they got rid of the lock-on.

But I wish sprint was gone, which would eliminate Spartan charge by default.

 

[Fata1moose]

Retain:
Thruster
Stabilizer
Ground pound
Clamber

Throw out:
Sprint (in favor of a faster base movement speed)
Slide
spartan charge

 

[blue_phazon]

Retain:
Thruster
Stabilizer
Ground pound
Clamber

Throw out:
Sprint (in favor of a faster base movement speed)
Slide
spartan charge

This is a good list. Removing sprint is essential if we want better map design and game flow.

Spoiler

They won't do it though

 

[Fahzgoolin]

Is it confirmed that the Classic throwback playlist is removing sprint? If that's the case, I really hope we all jump on and give it out support as a community.

It's kind of weird though, if they do that they are kind of asking for more of the same old "get rid of sprint" plea on social media.

 

[SCHUEY F1]

Retain:
Thruster
Stabilizer
Ground pound
Clamber

Throw out:
Sprint (in favor of a faster base movement speed)
Slide
spartan charge

Good post. I like sprint and sliding but I could live without it if it means and simpler control sceme.

It is literally impossible for 343 to please everyone though.

 

[VincentMatts]

Good post. I like sprint and sliding but I could live without it if it means and simpler control sceme.

It is literally impossible for 343 to please everyone though.

Personally i think that if they go backwards in terms of mechanics, they will just lose more people. You dont design a game to be played like a game that was being played in 2007. Thats absolutely ridiculous. Doom did that and their MP is fucking dead. People in here think its what everyone wants, it isnt. Its very niche and will not make halo more popular. If anything, it will have the opposite effect.

And please dont bring up Overwatch. Game is a completely different genre. Aint even the same sport.

 

[Fata1moose]

Removing sprint isn't going backwards. Sprint and smart scope were included because they were chasing genre conventions. Sprint isn't an essential element in a shooter, it's even unnecessary.

 

[SCHUEY F1]

Personally i think that if they go backwards in terms of mechanics, they will just lose more people. You dont design a game to be played like a game that was being played in 2007. Thats absolutely ridiculous. Doom did that and their MP is fucking dead. People in here think its what everyone wants, it isnt. Its very niche and will not make halo more popular. If anything, it will have the opposite effect.

And please dont bring up Overwatch. Game is a completely difference genre. Aint even the same sport.

Never played OW.

Also, I love Halo 5 and would also be perfectly fine with how it is going forward and if they did some small tweaks that's ok too. I'm not overly picky with the mechanics unless it is stuff like armor lock and equipment.Halo 5 has easily been my favorite MP Halo.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

Personally i think that if they go backwards in terms of mechanics, they will just lose more people. You dont design a game to be played like a game that was being played in 2007. Thats absolutely ridiculous. Doom did that and their MP is fucking dead. People in here think its what everyone wants, it isnt. Its very niche and will not make halo more popular. If anything, it will have the opposite effect.

And please dont bring up Overwatch. Game is a completely difference genre. Aint even the same sport.

Dude, Doom's MP was dead on arrival because it's not what people wanted from Doom...at all. It was a load out shooter with stupid things added to it (like the Demon rune's). People wanted simple arena multiplayer, but it was bastardized into something no one wanted.

I think you and others severely underestimate how much of an effect all of these worthless additions to Halo have alienated people--hardcore and casual alike. I'm not going to say they are the sole reason for any failures or drop in popularity, but I know a good number of people that didn't bother with the new Halo because of how it's been handled with 4, MCC debacle, and the continued arbitrary changes in 5.


Good video about how Halo could learn from Runescape's similar community situation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IHZybz-pD0

 

[HTupolev]

Personally i think that if they go backwards in terms of mechanics

"go backwards"

 

[Madness]

"go backwards"

I think he really likes Sprint. Any game without it would seem backwards I guess. Funny how going backwards has allowed Black Ops 2 and Modern Warfare remastered to dominate the newer trash that is Infinite or Advanced Warfare though.

 

[VincentMatts]

Vincent just wants Sprint. Any game without it seems backwards I guess. Funny how going backwards has allowed Black Ops 2 and Modern Warfare remastered to dominate the newer trash that is Infinite or Advanced Warfare.

Trash is trash. Sprint or not. Infinite and Advanced Warfare fucking suck. Thats a bigger problem than having god damn sprint or not. If that needs to be explained to you then i honestly dont have the energy to do it.

 

[RichiRamjag]

Is it confirmed that the Classic throwback playlist is removing sprint? If that's the case, I really hope we all jump on and give it out support as a community.

It's kind of weird though, if they do that they are kind of asking for more of the same old "get rid of sprint" plea on social media.

As they were looking for 1:1 maps, I assumed so, but I don't think anything has been confirmed.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

Dude, Doom's MP was dead on arrival because it's not what people wanted from Doom...at all. It was a load out shooter with stupid things added to it (like the Demon rune's). People wanted simple arena multiplayer, but it was bastardized into something no one wanted.

Yeah lol, Doom is a poor example because it's the equivalent to what Halo 4 did.

 

[BizzyBum]

So I ranked into FFA again this season and had a few thoughts. I generally stay in the Plat/Diamond range so the following might not be true for every level of play.

What happened to using other weapons besides the pistol? Now, I'm incredibly happy the pistol is at least back up to Reach levels of usefulness but it really negates the need to get any other weapon. Which is odd to me because at the beginning of H5's life I really felt like every weapon was getting even use.

I bring this up because during a match on Truth I noticed no one was going for the sword, not even me. It dawned upon me that this is not the Halo I'm used to playing. No power weapons, just pew pew pistol. Which again, no problem with the pistol itself, just disappointed it renders other weapons less useful.

While I love starting out with a competent weapon scheme, I just hope going forward 343 continues with the buff everything mentality. I want power weapons to feel powerful and worth chasing after, I shouldn't be content with just my pistol and AR. Maybe there's no need to buff the Sniper but a slightly quicker shooting speed for a Rocket would be nice, or a slightly faster Sword would encourage it's use. Cut the ammo in half if needed but make the power weapons something that are not ignored.

I know some folks don't want power weapons at all and really crave that octagon style experience but for me, chasing a power weapon is a huge part of the Halo experience. And to see the weapon I've chased for years not getting any love, be it because of its position on the map or lack of power compared to other weapons is incredibly saddening.

FFA is just a joke of a game mode in H5 at this point.

I tried playing a few matches earlier and it's hilarious how awful it is. After all the tweaks 343 has made to the game I have no idea why they haven't touched FFA to refresh it. Played Riptide where on the map you have two SR's, BR, H2BR, Beam Rifle, and Hyrda on a small ass map with starting weapon AR and old radar.

It's like I'm playing a completely different game as opposed to HCS playlist.

 

[User 73706]

Yeah, I can see the arguments against all the other SAs (even if I don't agree with them), but Ground Pound is basically harmless. It's a fun tool for styling on people or making big risk/reward plays at a more casual level. Plus, it's just fun to use.

Ground Pound alone totally revitalized my KD. I haven't played in over a year and I'm still top 2% for Ground Pound damage.

 

[TheMissingLink]

Nah, fuck Spartan Charge. Throw that shit in the trash where it belongs.

Amen.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Get rid of sprint, increase movement speed, and map everything to the thruster. Make thrust a chargeable ability but keep the wait time between each use.

Single press - Normal thrust
Hold press - longer thrust, temporary boost in movement speed until next thrust is available
Hold press, jump - Jump in air to set up deadly ground pound
Hold press, melee - Spartan charge
Hold press, crouch - Slide

I fixed Halo 6

I like most of this, though I wonder how the effect of committing to groundpounding before the jump, and honestly sorting those inputs could be tricky?

But yeah, tying everything to thruster is good. I would actually have it be a spendable resource, sorta? So like, single thrust drains half (so you can do 2 consecutively), longer thrust drains... call it 3/4, GP drains the whole bar, slide might drain only a quarter? Allows for some shenanigans.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

EDIT: GameStop is currently having a sale where you can trade in any wireless Xbox One controller to receive $50 towards an Elite controller. Additional controllers towards that purchase will be $22 credit.

 

[jem0208]

Nah, fuck Spartan Charge. Throw that shit in the trash where it belongs.

Spartan Charge is bad because of the insane auto aim/magnetism. Remove that and it would be fine. It would actually require some skill to hit.

 

[Masterz1337]

Get rid of sprint, increase movement speed, and map everything to the thruster. Make thrust a chargeable ability but keep the wait time between each use.

Single press - Normal thrust
Hold press - longer thrust, temporary boost in movement speed until next thrust is available
Hold press, jump - Jump in air to set up deadly ground pound
Hold press, melee - Spartan charge
Hold press, crouch - Slide

I fixed Halo 6

I sort of love this, aside from raising the base movement speed. That sends to many ripples through the game and the speed of the game can be changed through other better means, let it be wider fov, faster reloads, small maps.

 

[Welfare]

I sort of love this, aside from raising the base movement speed. That sends to many ripples through the game and the speed of the game can be changed through other better means, let it be wider fov, faster reloads, small maps.

I feel that in a game with a button to boost players places, base movement should be fast enough to not feel that one must always boost forward to get anywhere. Fast enough speed and strafing can allow players to not waste a thrust on simply trying to outmaneuver an opponent and can open up more ways on how to engage and win.

Thrust can be used to open up a deeper level of combat while the game can still have a good pace of regular combat.

I like most of this, though I wonder how the effect of committing to groundpounding before the jump, and honestly sorting those inputs could be tricky?

But yeah, tying everything to thruster is good. I would actually have it be a spendable resource, sorta? So like, single thrust drains half (so you can do 2 consecutively), longer thrust drains... call it 3/4, GP drains the whole bar, slide might drain only a quarter? Allows for some shenanigans.

I imagine the inputs would be

Hold "RB" (Thrust) THEN "A" (Jump) = Normal Jump + Big boost into the air THEN Hold "B" (Melee) = Ground Pound
Hold "RB" (Thrust) While Moving THEN "LS" (Crouch) = Slide or Hold "RB" (Thrust) While Crouched = Slide
Hold "RB" (Thrust) THEN "B" (Melee) = Spartan Charge

I'd also have the player give off a glow effect while charging the thrust.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

If thrust is to remain, I think it's imperative that they lower the potential kill time of the Pistol while lessening its aim assist. It currently takes too long to kill people with the Pistol imo, which is another factor against casual players.

Get a few shots in, the enemy thrusts/sprints away at the press of a button (outcome irrelevant, as in it doesn't matter if one player escapes; it's still routinely frustrating). Sometimes it's better to just shoot someone once to bait out their thrust, then finish the kill. Unless you're with a coordinate team or just simply l o v e Halo, I can't see this trend of easily escaping encounters combined with long kill times (relative) being a recipe for success in the long-term.

EDIT:

I like the lethality in Halo 5, quickening the TTK further would be a bad move in my opinion.

I'm solely talking about the Pistol, unless that's what you're also solely referring to.

 

[Fata1moose]

I like the lethality in Halo 5, quickening the TTK further would be a bad move in my opinion.

 

[Unfriendly TimeTraveler]

I'm super late to the party (like always) but congrats everybody on halo gaf for getting the Achilles helmet. I honestly thought we would never get it but some of you were determined to do what most of can't (play the game).

The irony of it all is since I joined late I'll never get the armor but oh well more about the journey than the destination. Had some real fun times with you guys in the quest for the helmet.

Edit: I'm on the fence about Spartan charge because it would be alright if it's tracking wasn't so strong.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

I think making the TTK faster across the board would be great. Also, I don't like the slow sniper ROF.

 

[YourExWife]

I'm super late to the party (like always) but congrats everybody on halo gaf for getting the Achilles helmet. I honestly thought we would never get it but some of you were determined to do what most of can't (play the game).

The irony of it all is since I joined late I'll never get the armor but oh well more about the journey than the destination. Had some real fun times with you guys in the quest for the helmet.

Edit: I'm on the fence about Spartan charge because it would be alright if it's tracking wasn't so strong.

Shit, the requirements for the armor are so crazy low in comparison, you could get it yourself or with a couple bros. Might take a little while, but not too crazy.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

I like the lethality in Halo 5, quickening the TTK further would be a bad move in my opinion.

Agreed. If you want faster TTK you're looking for twitch shooters

 

[op_ivy]

Shit. Replacing my elite's bumpers for the second time and there are these little plastic nubs on the silver plastic surrounding the power button that hold the bumpers in place that broke when I removed the bumpers. Now my new bumpers slide around ever so slightly, which is leading to quite a few miss registering melees, and jumps (I play bumper jumper). When I first reassembled it id go into full 100% ground pound charge up any time I jumped. Now I've figured out that if I press almost straight down near the tips of the bumpers it works 99% of the time - just got to retrain my brain on how to hold and use it. Still fucked. Word of caution to anyone else doing repairs...

 

[Cranster]

If anything TTK needs to be increased slightly. Part of what worked with Halo 2 and Halo 3 is that with their increased TTK really good players could turn things around when they are ambushed. In Halo 5 with it's low TTK it's pretty much a game of who spotted who first. Of course the crappy map design probably plays a part in it aswell.