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[Trup1aya]

snip

Every time Random spread was introduced into a halo game, it was met with widespread condemnation from the playerbase. EVERYTIME. It was patched out of Halo 2. People still complain about it in Halo 3. It was eventually patched out of Reach. The lack of spread on precision weapons is something H5 was initially praised for.

Also, paid developers came up with Halo 4, a massive collection of bad ideas that were heavily tested prior to release- so let's not use their salary to prove they thought this through carefully.

They CAN tweak things like RRR, magnetism and aim assist. The test playlist does this on a number of weapons. Adjusting these values is PROVEN way to influence a weapons effective range without making gunplay feel unsatisfactory. Not just proven by Halo, but also by many other shooters with an interest in differentiating weapons by range.

If they measure success by gameplay datapoints, rather than by what makes the game feel enjoyable and rewarding to those playing it, then they are doomed.

Data helps, but entertainment is an art, not a science. The goal shouldnt be "reduce the effective range". It should be "reduce the effective range in a way that feels satisfying". The trick is the 'satisfying' part, and Random spread won't do it.

 

[IHaveIce]

the Halo 5 BR is in the H3 throwback list? Lmao alright

 

[Laws00]

i miss player voting.......

i just want to play Guardian

4 hours and still no Guardian

 

[Nowise10]

If you told me 10 years ago Bungie wouldn't even acknowledge Halo 3's existence on its 10th Anniversary I would have laughed in your face.
...

 

[BizzyBum]

Yeah, there's no way the H3 shields took this long to regen.

 

[Mau5]

Yeah, there's no way the H3 shields took this long to regen.

I was just going to mention that it takes forever!

I don't remember CTF on Isolation being a gametype.

 

[IHaveIce]

If you told me 10 years ago Bungie wouldn't even acknowledge Halo 3's existence on its 10th Anniversary I would have laughed in your face.
...

Bungie didn't do it for Halo 2 either I think or for the 15 years of Halo.

They stay out of it. Pretty sad tbh

 

[daedalius]

If you told me 10 years ago Bungie wouldn't even acknowledge Halo 3's existence on its 10th Anniversary I would have laughed in your face.
...

I thought their twitter account re tweeted the halo 3 stream or something.

 

[Nowise10]

Bungie didn't do it for Halo 2 either I think or for the 15 years of Halo.

They stay out of it. Pretty sad tbh

I thought I remembered them mentioning MCC and congratulating 343.

 

[Juan]

Did I say they were making flawless decision because they were professionals? I don't think so. I said as professional and paid people for working on this, I highly doubt they didn't came up with the ideas you shared in this thread, and if they decided to put BR spread, it was maybe because those other ways (may) weren't working (and no giving them the results they were expecting to achieve).

I mean, you are all assuming all the solutions you proposed would be perfect. You didn't think that maybe, you were wrong? I never saw someone here considering this.

And, I was joking when saying they couldn't change this (since it has been changed on other weapons, I know it is possible), it was to illustrate that they can, so don't you think they tried to tweak this before having to add BR spread (which again, wasn't in the game before compared to RRR).

Btw, you're talking about the vocal playerbase, but it doesn't mean it's the one that should be listened. You can argue all the way that the vocal playerbase is the one the more engage with the game and still be absolutely wrong, as most of the people playing Halo aren't here, or on HaloWaypoint, or on Reddit commenting and analyzing everything.

Their changes are really satisfying to me, and my friends playing with me. But we aren't really going on HaloWaypoint saying how much we love those changes, I may be the only one saying that I'm satisfied. And I'm not even going on HaloWaypoint to say this.

Human's behavior is much more likely to share something that seems bad (it's a way of protecting the body & mind), than spreading the love they can feel for something. That's not because most of the people already posting about Halo 5 doesn't like those changes that it means no one is actually liking them.

Again, enjoyment is a really personal value, since I much more enjoy Halo 5 with those settings than you do. So, that doesn't mean one of us is wrong or right. The question is more about what 343 want to achieve with those changes, and then, those changes may caters to certain players.

i miss player voting.......

i just want to play Guardian

4 hours and still no Guardian

Same here. The rotating system from Halo 5 is really bad...

Yeah, there's no way the H3 shields took this long to regen.

I tested them both:

Halo 5: 9.20 seconds

Halo 3: 5.52 seconds

Yeah, maybe you were right, I may be wrong trusting 343 for something as simple as tweaking settings.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Random spread is bad, yeah. What I would be down with is nonrandom but tricky-to-compensate-for spread. Maybe do something like each consecutive shot has different spread, with... say, 6-7 or so spread patterns on rotation, so you wouldn't necessarily have the same pattern on every kill.

 

[Slightly Live]

If you listen carefully, you can almost hear the ghost of Juices roaming HaloGAF at night.

 

[Prinz Eugn]

If you listen carefully, you can almost hear the ghost of Juices roaming HaloGAF at night.

Juan being a Juices alt would be a twist to remember.

 

[Trup1aya]

Did I say they were making flawless decision because they were professionals? I don't think so. I said as professional and paid people for working on this, I highly doubt they didn't came up with the ideas you shared in this thread, and if they decided to put BR spread, it was maybe because those other ways (may) weren't working (and no giving them the results they were expecting to achieve).

I mean, you are all assuming all the solutions you proposed would be perfect. You didn't think that maybe, you were wrong? I never saw someone here considering this.

No. Halo has a history of precision weapons that are limited at range without random spread. I could talk about the CE magnum, or the post-patch Reach DMR, but I don't have to look back. Halo 5 already has a weapon with range IDENTICAL to the BR, but with a lower effective range and no spread. The tactical magnum.

Look no further than H5 and you have a gun, that achieves the goal without causing gunplay to be inconsistent.

Btw, you're talking about the vocal playerbase, but it doesn't mean it's the one that should be listened. You can argue all the way that the vocal playerbase is the one the more engage with the game and still be absolutely wrong, as most of the people playing Halo aren't here, or on HaloWaypoint, or on Reddit commenting and analyzing everything.

Their changes are really satisfying to me, and my friends playing with me. But we aren't really going on HaloWaypoint saying how much we love those changes, I may be the only one saying that I'm satisfied. And I'm not even going on HaloWaypoint to say this.

Human's behavior is much more likely to share something that seems bad (it's a way of protecting the body & mind), than spreading the love they can feel for something. That's not because most of the people already posting about Halo 5 doesn't like those changes that it means no one is actually liking them.

Are you arguing that the silent playerbase likes when their reticle doesn't actually indicate where their bullets are going to land? Sure not everyone vocalizes their opinion, but who are you to say that the silent playerbase doesn't also dislike random spread?

Waypoint is generally VERY positive towards 343s work. In fact, I had to double-take some of the gamertags I saw criticizing the BR.

Again, enjoyment is a really personal value, since I much more enjoy Halo 5 with those settings than you do. So, that doesn't mean one of us is wrong or right. The question is more about what 343 want to achieve with those changes, and then, those changes may caters to certain players.

We know what 343 wanted to achieve (a lower effective range). This isn't in question at all. The question is whether or not their chosen method achieved this goal within parameters that are widely enjoyable.

The feedback loop (input response time, visual confirmation) is a vital component to enjoyment for most people. this is a fact. You know that feeling you get when your tv remote is inconsistent to your button presses because your battery is low. Random spread is like that, but it costs you kills. That might be fun to you, but most people don't find it rewarding.

 

[op_ivy]

Halo 3 playlist is pretty good.

But halo 5 > 3. Come at me bro.

 

[jelly]

Sk7tch in the Mixer comments when someone asked about MCC. Nice to know it may not be dead but I'll always hope they'll improve and build on it.

JoE_15 ske7ch, any comment on the current state of MCC? I know it was before your time

Sk7tch "MCC is something I'm still committed to providing a status update on, been making a little progress lately tbh"

JesterJay Could you just like outsource MCC to cheap Indie devs? lol

Sk7tch it's not that easy, but I wouldn't say the door is completely shut yet.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

Are you arguing that the silent playerbase likes when their reticle doesn't actually indicate where their bullets are going to land? Sure not everyone vocalizes their opinion, but who are you to say that the silent playerbase doesn't also like random spread?

It's not that they are consciously aware of the random spread, it's that they're seeing now they have a fighting chance for some reason, assuming of course if data suggests random spread "balances" encounters between players of different ranks.

 

[Juan]

No. Halo has a history of precision weapons that are limited at range without random spread. I could talk about the CE magnum, or the post-patch Reach DMR, but I don't have to look back. Halo 5 already has a weapon with range IDENTICAL to the BR, but with a lower effective range and no spread. The tactical magnum.

Look no further than H5 and you have a gun, that achieves the goal without causing gunplay to be inconsistent.

CE magnum had random spread. Or maybe should I call this bloom, but I don't think this is bloom. This is really random spread.

Iirc, BR is the only burst-firing weapon in Halo. To unique weapon unique constrains.

Are you arguing that the silent playerbase likes when their reticle doesn't actually indicate where their bullets are going to land. Sure not everyone vocalizes their opinion, but who are you to say that the silent playerbase doesn't also like random spread?

And who are you to tell this silent playerbase doesn't like random spread? Or at least, maybe not random spread itself, but the effect it has on the pacing, because, let's be honest, not everyone is aware of how weapons are working, they may not be aware that spread/random spread is a thing like Funk said.

I consider myself from the casual side right now, and the only thing I've argued so far is that I enjoy those new settings as it helps slowing down the pace.

It happens those settings do have random spread.

We know what 343 wanted to achieve (a lower effective range).

Did you consider they may also have heard feedback from people like me, saying the pacing is way too speed in Halo 5, and they may also wanted to slow down the pacing as well?

Plus, you're acting like the spread is changing the burst from 5cm to like 10 meters spread. I mean, lol, the spread is sure random, but not that big to change things at close range.

 

[SCHUEY F1]

Halo 3 playlist is pretty good.

But halo 5 > 3. Come at me bro.

Agreed

 

[wwm0nkey]

Sk7tch in the Mixer comments when someone asked about MCC. Nice to know it may not be dead but I'll always hope they'll improve and build on it.

JoE_15 ske7ch, any comment on the current state of MCC? I know it was before your time

Sk7tch "MCC is something I'm still committed to providing a status update on, been making a little progress lately tbh"

JesterJay Could you just like outsource MCC to cheap Indie devs? lol

Sk7tch it's not that easy, but I wouldn't say the door is completely shut yet.

PC port w/ custom game cross play + XBO fix with XBO X 4k patch, game would get a lot of play time for a long long time. But also that cost money, so.

 

[Slightly Live]

But also that cost money, so.

We all know Microsoft doesn't have any of that.

 

[wwm0nkey]

We all know Microsoft doesn't have any of that.

Someone, get Phil on the phone! Stat!

 

[Trup1aya]

It's not that they are consciously aware of the random spread, it's that they're seeing now they have a fighting chance for some reason, assuming of course if data suggests random spread "balances" encounters between players of different ranks.

I'm sure they love having a fighting chance. I'm also fairly certain that they'd like to have the fighting chance w/o the guns they are using feeling inconsistent. And that's just for the people who don't know the method being used.

CE magnum had random spread. Or maybe should I call this bloom, but I don't think this is bloom. This is really random spread.

Iirc, BR is the only burst-firing weapon in Halo. To unique weapon unique constrains.

The 'spread' on the CE magnum was user influenced. It wasn't random. Perform this same test with a player standing at the other end, then repeat it with an H3 BR or H5 test BR and feel the difference. Or just count how many shots to kill. In CE, it'll be the same everytime, in H3 it'll range from 4 to 8, and I bet this test BR is no different.

And who are you to tell this silent playerbase doesn't like random spread? Or at least, maybe not random spread itself, but the effect it has on the pacing, because, let's be honest, not everyone is aware of how weapons are working, they may not be aware that spread/random spread is a thing like Funk said.

I'm sure many people like the pacing, but that can be achieved without making the gun feel inconsistent. I'm sure most people don't know HOW the weapons are working, they do know they aren't getting kills despite everything everything telling them that their opponent should be dead.

I consider myself from the casual side right now, and the only thing I've argued so far is that I enjoy those new settings as it helps slowing down the pace.

It happens those settings do have random spread.

Slowing down the pace is great, but that can be achieved without making weapons inconsistent.

Did you consider they may also have heard feedback from people like me, saying the pacing is way too speed in Halo 5, and they may also wanted to slow down the pacing as well?

Slowing down the pace is great, but that can be achieved without making weapons inconsistent.

Plus, you're acting like the spread is changing the burst from 5cm to like 10 meters spread. I mean, lol, the spread is sure random, but not that big to change things at close range.

Yeah whatever. I've played maybe 25 games and have had numerous instances where oneshot or absolute opponents, took two more more shots to kill, despite aiming directly at them. I don't care what the spread distance is... it feels bad everytime that happens.

 

[Karl2177]

So uh. I'm not liking the Halo 3 playlist in Halo 5. Maps are cool, but something isn't clicking for me with the gameplay.

 

[FATstronaut]

So uh. I'm not liking the Halo 3 playlist in Halo 5. Maps are cool, but something isn't clicking for me with the gameplay.

The shields feel weird

 

[Fuchsdh]

Feels like H3 to me, in other words gameplay that I don't think has aged as well as previous or later entries in the series.

Forgers did a bang-on job with the maps. They kind of feel like the CE or 2 devolved versions.

 

[YourExWife]

So uh. I'm not liking the Halo 3 playlist in Halo 5. Maps are cool, but something isn't clicking for me with the gameplay.

I'm sure the settings being borked has nothing to do with it......

 

[Juan]

snip

There are other videos on youtube showing that the CE magnum has random spread (it's even worse when firing as automatic, but this is not a surprise). I may not make the difference with user influenced spread from a lack of knowledge, but to be honest, I'm just judging the end result on the pacing (being on close/mid/long range).

But you know Trup, as much as I like those changes in the tuned playlist, I don't think this is the right move to make on Halo 5.

From the beginning, I hated Halo 5. I gave this game many chances, and I still didn't like it in the end. I'm not the public targeted with this game.

So far, people have been used to play Halo 5 a certain way, and even if I like this playlist, I don't think 343 should make such drastic changes to please people like me who don't like Halo 5 and pissing people that liked the way Halo 5 was played before.

If they decide to keep those settings, I would sure be happy as far as it suits me, and it will give me hope that Halo 6 may share a similar pacing, giving me the opportunity to like their newest game. But, I'm not calling it, because the people who enjoyed Halo 5 the way it was shouldn't be left behind on this same game.

I assume 343 made decision on this update based on internal improvements and tests they have done regarding several ways to achieve their end goal with this update. I may be wrong, I'm just satisfying with the result it has on the pacing, since the positive impact erase the negative one so far as I'm concerned.

The shields feel weird

They definitely take double the time to recharge, I don't know where 343 saw Halo 3's shield took 10 seconds to recharge.

The health took 10 seconds to recharge in Halo 3 (health was an hidden stats), but the shield took 4.25 seconds.

Since health and shield are tied together in Halo 5, maybe they thought they should put it at 10 seconds since apparently they were looking at the code base in Halo 3 for this.

I don't know if I should consider this dumb or accurate tbh.

 

[RoKKeR]

Hey, I just played some Halo 3 on MCC and it... Worked?

Also tried out Halo 3 on back compatible, wild going from 30 frames and sub 720 to 1080p60, makes a huge difference.

 

[Karl2177]

I'm sure the settings being borked has nothing to do with it......

They don't.

 

[Juan]

Hey, I just played some Halo 3 on MCC and it... Worked?

It's been working for more than a year now in fact, I never had issues with the MCC for a very long time (Matchmaking, custom or campaign), being solo or with friends.

The only problem I have with the MCC is the playlists and the slot rotation for the games, because hella people are always voting for Halo 3 since it's always available...

Also, is Guardian really in the Halo 3 playlist? I've been playing for hours now just to get on this maps, I've played at least 4 times on each maps, and I didn't get Guardian once... I'm losing hope, and patience.

 

[Fata1moose]

Halo 3 playlist is pretty good.

But halo 5 > 3. Come at me bro.

Halo 5 4v4 is better than Halo 3 4v4, forge is also better for obvious reasons. After that, I'd take Halo 3 for campaign and BTB.

 

[BizzyBum]

Damn, only 400 people playing Halo 3 right now. Definitely thought more would be playing it tonight.

 

[curiouscharles]

Halo 3 playlist is pretty good.

But halo 5 > 3. Come at me bro.

ok i'll come at you.... for a hug?

[cause i agree with you whole-heartedly]

holy fuck this halo 3 playlist sucks... hopefully it still exists when i'm 89 years old though because then the pacing would be JUST right.

Halo 5 4v4 is better than Halo 3 4v4, forge is also better for obvious reasons. After that, I'd take Halo 3 for campaign and BTB.

Quoted.
For.
Truth.

 

[Trup1aya]

Snip

I can assure you that the slower pacing is something that is desired by many players- from casual to pro. It's something that I personally enjoy about the test playlist.

I think you are enjoying the slower place, and are attributing the pace to the random spread, or are assuming that random spread is the best way to achieve those results. It isn't.

There are a number of ways to slow the pace. Increasing the avg kill time is one of them. And making a weapon randomly inaccurate is just one of many ways to increase the avg kill time.

Static spread, a static recoil pattern, reduced magnetism, etc all ways to achieve the exact same goal without making gunplay feel bad.

 

[curiouscharles]

I can assure you that the slower pacing is something that is desired by many players- from casual to pro. It's something that I personally enjoy about the test playlist.

I think you are enjoying the slower place, and are attributing the pace to the random spread, or are assuming that random spread is the best way to achieve those results. It isn't.

There are a number of ways to slow the pace. Increasing the avg kill time is one of them. And making a weapon randomly inaccurate is just one of many ways to increase the avg kill time.

Static spread, a static recoil pattern, reduced magnetism, etc all ways to achieve the exact same goal without making gunplay feel bad.

yeah gunplay has maybe something to do with it, but it's generally just the walk speed, the jump height / speed / floatiness... those are the things making it feel slow [and boring af].

 

[Madness]

Don't like how it plays. I like no sprint, thrust or charge or ground and pound. But health regen a bit too slow and base movement needs to upped and I would enjoy way more.

 

[Trup1aya]

yeah gunplay has maybe something to do with it, but it's generally just the walk speed, the jump height / speed / floatiness... those are the things making it feel slow [and boring af].

You talking about H3 playlist? I was talking about 343 adjusting H5 pacing via random spread.

As far as the playlist, the pacing is just weird because the maps are small, and the movement is slow, but the weapons are tuned for larger maps and high movement speed.

 

[op_ivy]

Halo 5 4v4 is better than Halo 3 4v4, forge is also better for obvious reasons. After that, I'd take Halo 3 for campaign and BTB.

I agree with this.

 

[curiouscharles]

You talking about H3 playlist? I was talking about 343 adjusting H5 pacing via random spread.

As far as the playlist, the pacing is just weird because the maps are small, and the movement is slow, but the weapons are tuned for larger maps and high movement speed.

ah understood, yeah thought you were talking 'bout H3 playlist.

fuck the weapon tuning playlist, fuck it to hell [seriously fuck it RIGHT to hell].

gimme back my magnum / AR starts and i can go back to team arena where i belong...

 

[BizzyBum]

I just told Ghostayame in Snip3down's stream the H3 throwback shield regen was way too slow and he said he's not entirely sure why it's like that but they are looking to hopefully fix it by tomorrow.

 

[curiouscharles]

I just told Ghostayame in Snip3down's stream the H3 throwback shield regen was way too slow and he said he's not entirely sure why it's like that but they are looking to hopefully fix it by tomorrow.

Twitch, entirely more useful than Twitter.

 

[Talents]

10 years since Halo 3. What an amazing game.

Shame that 343 got their hands on the series and destroyed what little of it was left after Reach. 5 is full of shitters who think their game is good even though it's gutter trash.

 

[Newt]

10 years since Halo 3. What an amazing game.

Shame that 343 got their hands on the series and destroyed what little of it was left after Reach. 5 is full of shitters who think their game is good even though it's gutter trash.

Quoted for truth.

 

[NippleViking]

Don't like how it plays. I like no sprint, thrust or charge or ground and pound. But health regen a bit too slow and base movement needs to upped and I would enjoy way more.

Yeah, Halo 5's tuning isn't translating super well as is, and then 343i have implemented some bizarre settings decisions on top of it. That said, might be placebo, but I feel like there's already an evident improvement in gunfights just with the lack of sprint, thrust, hover, and ground pound. Halo 5's inherent tuning - i.e. Bullet magnetism, BR range, and mini-nuke grenades - are bringing it down a little, but that classic Halo pacing is definitely shining through.

I do miss clamber though. My ideal would be clamber back, and faster base movement speed.

 

[curiouscharles]

Yeah, Halo 5's tuning isn't translating super well as is, and then 343i have implemented some bizarre settings decisions on top of it. That said, might be placebo, but I feel like there's already an evident improvement in gunfights just with the lack of sprint, thrust, hover, and ground pound. Halo 5's inherent tuning - i.e. Bullet magnetism, BR range, and mini-nuke grenades - are bringing it down a little, but that classic Halo pacing is definitely shining through.

I do miss clamber though. My ideal would be clamber back, and faster base movement speed.

Quoted for truth.

10 years since Halo 3. What an amazing game.

Shame that 343 got their hands on the series and destroyed what little of it was left after Reach. 5 is full of shitters who think their game is good even though it's gutter trash.

Quoted.
For.
Terrible opinions.

#jokesjokesjokes

Spoiler

not jokes

 

[Mau5]

The Classic helmets are finally back you can use your req points to get them again.

 

[curiouscharles]

The Classic helmets are finally back you can use your req points to get them again.

wha?

how?

wha i need to do?

[i have like 4 million req points]

edit: nvm found it woo!

 

[Mau5]

haha i know right I had 500k req points just sitting there for no reason

 

[YourExWife]

Yeah - they need to fix the shields thing, because the playlist as-is, is a straight up shit-show.

EDIT: This is a great example of something that could have been caught had they tested the list in a real world environment (maybe just not accessible to the public or w/e).
They literally just had to play one match. They could have said something like "sorry, there was a mistake and the playlist is delayed." Instead, they release into the wild and have to fix it *after* embarrassing themselves (whether or not the fix is an easy thing). This is the type of thing that happens all...the...time that we're talking about, Juan. In case you're wondering. Simple shit like this is why it's hard to believe they tried all those other things properly before the testing playlist. Add in stuff like the 14-day try and buy and we have little reason to trust responses when mistakes are made. There is so much ground that has to be made up and so much trust that has to be re-earned - and that's the problem.