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Halo Lore Thread
- Thread starter Korten
- Start date
Thanks you guys! I'll probably snag them on my Kindle Keyboard and give them a read.
The important thing is that all you guys mention the time period and it's one that is of a lot of interest to me.
That doesn't sound so bad then.
The setting sounds great then to me. I can deal with some of the Halsey stuff I would guess. I liked how she was in a moral gray-area, but found myself a little confused as to her status when I was reading some of the other novels.
Ahhh. I don't like the sound of those things for her because I did like the Nylund portrayal, but I can deal with this setting of her at any rate. I suppose the hyperbole I heard probably came from those who have a particular feel for her character.
The important thing is that all you guys mention the time period and it's one that is of a lot of interest to me.
Caayn
Member
Just be ready for a needless and an unnecessary amount of Halsey bashing. Basically the entire universe hates her now, even Mendez is against her. If you can overcome that, you'll have a nice read.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
OP you could add a bunch of the books/comics/extras etc pics from this Halo OT (locked now), I believe they were in correct chronological order.
Blue Ninja
Member
http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive36.pl?read=1070818
Said by Evil Otto, Bungie employee.
Contact Harvest reaffirms this.
The Prophets endeavors to exterminate humanity seem kinda pointless now. First three games lose all their meaning. Humanity's existence is no longer an affront to their religion, so why the holocaust? Post retcon, at least one of their true gods was still out there waiting to be found and they knew nothing of the Precursors intentions for humanity's role as galactic stewards. If the Prophets/Covenant found that to be a threat to their religion, killing one Forerunner would have been a hell of a lot easier than the whole of humanity. But in Halo 4 we see remaining Covenant are more than willing to bow down to Didact. -_-
The only course for me is to not pay serious attention to anything written post Bungie.
The only course for me is to not pay serious attention to anything written post Bungie.
-- That's David Candland, not one of the franchise/canon folks. And the terminals in Halo 3 already pointed to the Humans =! Forerunners. Unless "them" refers to something else that was never explained.
Halo 3 Terminal said:
In the same game where 343 Guitly Spark says to Master Chief, "You are Forerunner."
"Them" could be anyone.
Maybe, but I think he meant the Forerunner in general, not Chief specifically. He outwardly assumed Chief was aware of what the Halo array was going to do before Cortana prevented him from activating it. I thought Spark was working off of the assumption that any surviving Forerunner who made it to that point would know the deal.
Caayn
Member
The Covenant in Halo 4 is a splinter sec created by Jul U'Mdama. This group of "covenant" still believes in the Forerunners, and worships them as gods.
The discussion as to if Bungie wanted the Forerunners and Humans to be one species will never be solved, and it all relies on how you interpreted it and which cannon you want to take over the other. On one hand you've got them being the same species as pointed towards in Contact Harvest, CE, Halo encyclopedia*, humans being able to use Forerunner tech without a single problem (Halo Wars for example, the sphere to activate the Forerunner fleet instantly responds to Anders). On the other hand you've got them being a different species as described in one Halo 3 terminal which is quoted in the Halo encyclopedia* and Halo Legends Origin part 1.
I'm most likely forgetting a number of sources.
* Written by 343i post Halo 3 ODST based on the Bungie universe up till that point in time.
He uses the term as a title that can be passed on to "the inheritor of all they left behind". That line really isn't written like it's supposed to be a dramatic revelation that's meant to change everything you thought about human history in the Halo universe.
"Them" could only be a life form from Earth, and since she calls "them" special, especially knowing sci-fi and video game writers, this could only be humans. Unless the Librarian was way into ponies.
He certainly states this strangely in Halo 1.
(interestingly, this line is specifically called out in the Forerunner Saga, with 343GS confusing Master Chief with the Iso-Didact.) In any case, it's rather moot.343 GS said:
Edit: Also, should note that 343 GS doesn't refer to every human as reclaimer, and only seems to care about a few of them (hence why he flat-out abandons everyone but Master Chief when he is introduced). It could be that at some point they were shooting for a Stargate "Ancient genes" sort of connection where only some humans were Reclaimer status.
N7Commander95
Member
Quick question, is Mortal Dictata any good? Theres a deal on at my local bookstore, and \I can pick it up for cheap. I very rarely read video game novels unless they are somewhat readable (Laughs at ME: Deception).
The Halsey hate goes off the rails in Mortal Dictata, and the Insurrectionists are hilariously incompetent, but its pretty good. I really liked the way she wrote the Kig-Yar in this book.
Caayn
Member
It's the third book in the Kilo-Five trilogy so I doubt that you'll understand much of it without reading Glasslands and Thursday War first.
Blue Ninja
Member
If you'll remember the Iris ARG from before Halo 3, there were also some hints that Forerunners and Humans weren't 100% the same, but that they were similar, and that there was something mysterious about the link between them. I think it was implied that Humans were an offshoot of the Forerunners, something like the link between the Pak Protectors and the Humans in Larry Niven's Ringworld series. Humans were considered Forerunner, but the Forerunners just weren't exactly sure how they got to Earth in the first place.
Unfortunately, this got completely retconned afterwards, when Bear established the Forerunners had discovered humanity and their hyper-advanced ancient culture™ a long time before they encountered the Flood.
I still can't get over the re-designs. They looks terrible and ugly, in my opinion. -.-
Also, why the heck don't they speak english anymore? What was the reasoning behind that? Something like: "They are a fanatic covenant group and they are too cool to speak english!"? That's poor...
How did I miss this? lmao
N7Commander95
Member
Awesome, I've read Grasslands so i'll pick that up and the Thursday War. Thanks
I wouldn't say that this suggests that humans were considered an offshoot of the same species. Sounds more like it's hinting that Halo follows the Star Trek school of interplanetary biology (different species originating from the same, uh, intelligent designer).
lifeexpectancy
Member
There was a huge halo timeline done not long ago, I believe in the lead-up to Halo 4 IIRC. It was either in Gameinformer or on X360A, can't remember which. Anyway all of the info here and more can be found there if you're really interested.
Caayn
Member
You mean this one?
Be aware that this one doesn't contain any of the events that took place in Thursday War, Mortal Dictata, Silentium, Halo 4 and Forward unto Dawn.
Enjoy
For fucks sake people, play Halo 3, which clearly establishes that the Forerunners and humans are different species. Bungie did that, don't blame 343i for something they certainly didn't do.
EDIT i don't deny there being links between the humans and the Forerunners (and i never imagined the idea of humans having pre-Halo Event space-faring culture). But link doesn't mean "same".
Caayn
Member
How about you read my later posts in this thread?
Specific post? Nothing i found exactly gives any credence to the idea of the humans and the Forerunners being the same species.
Halo 3 still establishes, in terminals, and the Iris campaign, that the humans and Forerunners are not the same species, not anyway directly at least.
Guilty Spark's claim, when is clearly rampant or something, doesn't really count for much. Not when the terminals, a much bigger and complete source, disagree with this. Halo CE actually hinted at a time travel plot (my interpretation of course) with Spark's "Why would you hesitate to do what you have already done?". Even if it ain't about time travel, it sure doesn't give much credibility to his Halo 3 claim, suggesting the Chief activated the Halos and then suggesting he is also a Forerunner... eh, doesn't work.
(Also, not really evidence but something fun to consider: Halo 2 had a holo panel with 6-fingered hand-print. Oddly enough, 343i' vision of the Forerunners includes 6-fingered hands)
Either way, it is silly to blame 343i for merely expanding upon the base Bungie gave them. Had Bungie been less contradictory about some things, things might be different.
Frankly, i didn't think this either, before Halo 3 (as i noted above, i figured Bungie intended some sort time travel plot, like Marathon series ended up having). Which made a mess of things in my mind, as the game clearly establishes humans are not Forerunners in the Terminals, yet Spark claims that humans are.
This has always been the biggest issue for me in Halo lore. There was no coordination between authors and Bungies. This is better with 343i in helm (clearer direction) now but unfortunately this causes some retcons, and i'm not happy with everything they do. Or how they do it.
Actually, that interpretation matches perfectly. The Forerunners passed the Mantle (somewhat unwillingly) to humans, so, the humans are Forerunners, in a... spiritual sense. Spark's claim works... but badly, it is much easier to interpret it as claiming that humans just are Forerunners, as in, the same species.
l Zealot l
Member
It's more of a connection. The connection been a massive war pre dating the UNSC and also humans inheriting the Mantle.
Humans are not Forerunner. Two completely different species.
However (going of memory) Precursors created Forerunners, they however turned against their makers and destroyed them.
Bungie kinda hinted towards Humans = Forerunner, however it was finally shown to be incorrect in Cryptum.
Caayn
Member
I meant this post specifically.
That's the beauty of it, what Spark says can be interpreted in almost anyway you want it as you just proofed with the time travel theory. The same goes for the Halo 3 terminals (4 and 6) you can read it as an entirely different species, or as a subspecies of the forerunners. Maybe a deliberately created "mutant" species which would take their place once the Halo Array fired. Bungie was never clear about what they were planning with the Forerunner - Human link.
//343i cannon
Remember how late the Forerunners realized that there where also Forerunners living in Path Kethona (a different galaxy).
Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming anyone. I'd just prefer it if the Humans and Forerunners were the same species instead of them being separate species. It all feels so far fetched: Humans being capable of fighting against the forerunners, Humans in an alliance with the San 'Shyuum against the Forerunners, Forerunners (seemingly) destroying a race that's billions of years old, Humans (and San 'Shyuum) being a Tier 1 race before the Halo array fired.
Forerunners defeating the Precursors defies all logic for me.
My interpretation was that once the humans (reclaimers) claimed what the forerunner create(the halos), they would become the "forerunner" in a figurative sense. Whether this is right or not, idk, but this was my initial interpretation. I still need to read the finial book in the forerunner trilogy, so that could shed some light.
Right, this is exactly what I thought as well. Everything here seems to be in order, so I don't necessarily see any major problems with this aspect of the lore
Caayn
Member
Any idea when a hard corver version of Halo Escalation (containing all volumes) will be released?
Bungie discussing the Halo Bible
There is one book called the Halo Bible which has never been released to the public. If I'm correct Frank O'Connor now holds this book.
Bungie discussing the Halo Bible
J
JoJo UK
Unconfirmed Member
That's how I took it, the whole 'Humans = Forerunner' hints never sat well with me, far too predctable and too much of a it was us all along!?!??1 storyline.
l Zealot l
Member
*Monk chants start when talking about the holy book*
I wonder if the bible gets updated on a frequent basis to accommodate for the increase of scope in the universe.
Precursors losing to Forerunners doesn't add up as Precursors had the tech to jump galaxies which is insane.
I never liked what i perceived as implying time travel. Don't like time travel in scifi. Good thing it didn't turn out to be that.
The problem is, this stuff shouldn't be up for interpretation, we're talking about in-universe historical fact. At least, not due to way Bungie handled it. If Bungie had merely implied that the Forerunners and humans were the same, or merely related, but had never brought it up really (no Terminals, no Iris), ie had they really left it as a mystery, i wouldn't mind it being up for interpretation*. But they had to address it, yet they didn't do it thoughtfully.
*I'd still think it as humans=/=Forerunners. I don't like the concept of there being past highly advanced human civilization(s). As much as i dislike time travel, and that's a lot.
There are too many logical issues with it, starting with natural resources: In just a few hundred years, we have used a lot of easily available resources. Had there been an ancient advanced human civilization 100 000 years ago, there wouldn't be many resources available. And 100 000 years is not quite a long enough time for plate tectonics and whatever to replenish easily available ones.
Let's not even mention highly advanced ruins...
(Yes yes, Earth is big, there is a lot more of minerals than we might think. But easily available ones, stuff near surface you can get with relatively simple mining technologies, stuff you need to refine the said mining technologies to access harder ones....)
I'd argue that the humans being Forerunners has the same issue. Humans having ancient super civilization but somehow we don't know about it anymore?
Besides, why stick with one species? There is a lot of stars in this galaxy, a lot of planets, a lot of opportunities for life. Making humans to be the supreme life smells too much like Bungie's vision of Halo galaxy being highly human-centric universe.
Not that 343i's vision is much better here, with their glorification of humans, including the ancient human civilization.
(Seriously, this is a big issue in Halo in general, humans are portrayed as superior, innovative species for no particular reason, certain not "hard work", just them being innately so good. (Also a problem in Mass Effect, i think. Contrast to Star Wars, where humans are very wide-spread but are not innately superior, just that they're so damn common, skewing statistics))
RoyalLaFlame
Banned
Yeah, this is what bothers me. How could the most advanced species in existence lose against their creation?
Can't say I'm too enthusiastic about the Halo universe. The mystery in the beginning worked for me then the slide started with Halo 2 and Halo 4 even with terminals was a complete mess. Bolting on such heavy handed nonsense to a weak structure has pushed it so near the point of no return. Feels a bit desperate to expand the universe and they've ended up with the most by the numbers exposition overload.
l Zealot l
Member
i think it had something to do with them losing the Mantle.
nillapuddin
Member
Mighty fine collection you got there.
Damn nice collection.
Thanks Gentlemen, shes a beaut'
Last year I decided if I was going to collect one video game themed set, I would always display my books, so I invested in making them look awesome, Never opened a single page lol
Mostly have had a lot of books twice and/or audiobook/e-book, the shelf is sacred
Like they said, custom covers I made these for all the Halo games (album)
Custom Cover thread is awesome
I like that the Halo 4's collector case is casually put there just to fit the gap.
haha yeah, I was like "damn, the shelf is too wide... ahh screw it, triple down on Halo 4's"
Nice hardcovers! I spent so much research time finding all the books in the same size man its crazy, hardly ever buy them from the same place. It infuriates me everytime I see the logo discrepancies of the Forerunner trilogy
The Real Napsta
Member
This will be great to keep Halo lore discussions out of the HaloGAF thread.
It's mostly used for MP talk/complaining.
Subscribed.
It's mostly used for MP talk/complaining.
Subscribed.
Blue Ninja
Member
The Precursors lost because they didn't know how to fight a war. They were creators, and they knew how to destroy, but they never envisioned their creations might turn on them and try to destroy them. For all they created, they were apparently fairly rigid in their own ways.
I think a far more simple explanation for the confusion Bungie themselves propagated with their Halo games is some Bungie guys thought the Forerunner and humans should be the same (Staten), and some didn't. As pointed out, a lot in Halo 3 such as the terminals, or the ARG before it, basically excluded humanity = Forerunners, unless there were a bunch of humans on earth who were not related to the Forerunner as well.
I'm not sure how "Forerunner aren't humanity" is more hackneyed than "they were us the entire time", but it's largely a personal preference. There's still enough wiggle room with what Mendicant Bias says in Contact Harvest that 343's interpretation works without upsetting any apple carts (beyond rewriting the narrative provided in the Halo 3 terminals, which again they had wiggle room to do thanks to the big disclaimers Bungie themselves put in.)
As to humanity != Forerunner invalidating the first games--no it doesn't. Any race having a greater mastery of Forerunner tech, especially innately, and being the inheritors to their Gods--for reasons both political and religious there was no way the Prophets could take that sitting down. If they didn't exterminate humanity, it would only be a matter of time before they could be rendered redundant in the Covenant.
In many ways I find the Prophets to be some of the most sympathetic characters in the universe--everything they did was stemming from a desperate act of self-preservation that they could never escape. Of course they lied to the Elites and everyone else--they pretty much had no other choice.
I'm not sure how "Forerunner aren't humanity" is more hackneyed than "they were us the entire time", but it's largely a personal preference. There's still enough wiggle room with what Mendicant Bias says in Contact Harvest that 343's interpretation works without upsetting any apple carts (beyond rewriting the narrative provided in the Halo 3 terminals, which again they had wiggle room to do thanks to the big disclaimers Bungie themselves put in.)
As to humanity != Forerunner invalidating the first games--no it doesn't. Any race having a greater mastery of Forerunner tech, especially innately, and being the inheritors to their Gods--for reasons both political and religious there was no way the Prophets could take that sitting down. If they didn't exterminate humanity, it would only be a matter of time before they could be rendered redundant in the Covenant.
In many ways I find the Prophets to be some of the most sympathetic characters in the universe--everything they did was stemming from a desperate act of self-preservation that they could never escape. Of course they lied to the Elites and everyone else--they pretty much had no other choice.