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Halo: Reach |OT5| A Monument to All Our Sins

Tawpgun

Member
Tunavi said:
Holy shit. 8v8 warthogs only on Hemorrhage, no weapons. best custom game I've played in Reach yet

hitmonchan you really should have stayed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn84-U_6jE8

Botolf said:
The risk: Higher visibility, forgoing a more combat-oriented armor ability, briefly distancing self from ground cover in order to access it, being less useful on primarily horizontal terrain, and severely exposing yourself to air vehicles and the sniper rifle. It's easy to traverse with, but on a decent map the available counters are as hard as they get.

The cost: The jetpack "hopping" is highly dependent on map geometry. The best spaces tend to force Jetpack users to sidetrack or to exhaust the ability over and over again to get to a desirable portion of the map, which breaks up what you describe as "getting from point A to point B [in] a straight line". Such pathing introduces a flow just as genuine as the one encountered solely on foot, and is only as broken as the individual map. This doesn't singularly apply to Halo either, there are other examples of how "bullshit new routes" can form a balanced and integral part of gameplay, with both risk and cost in play.

10529-rocket_jump_large.jpg

The jetpack argument doesn't apply to Big Team Battle.

This is a VERY combat oriented AA. It lets you access power areas of the map by floating up to it instead of fighting your way there. It lets you shoot while jetpacking, sprint can't do that. When you float right above someone, assuming no teammates can help you out, they have a big view of your headshot hitbox and their headshot hitbox is blocked by their feet. It's like an unintentional Ender's Game strategy.

I don't think we're playing the same level of jetpackers. Good jetpackers don't sustain flight and don't stay in the air for a long time. You can't say a map is broken because the jetpack breaks it. It isn't the maps fault, it's the AA. The map can work fine with every other AA, but as soon as the jetpack is introduced its broken to all hell. Cage for example. You can jump past any gaps in the walkways. Jump from floating platform to floating platform. Disregarding all intentional player paths. Or jetting up to the sniper spawn in reflection instead of fighting your way through the hallways or the risky elevator ride. Or jetpacking into Ring 2 on asylum instead of pushing through the narrow doors. Or jetpacking up to top snipe in Boardwalk instead of pushing through the back. These maps weren't designed to account for these movements. Even Carney said that. They built these maps before the AA's really came into their own.

When I used the jetpack I never felt I was in any danger. The only trade off was I couldn't sprint. Big fucking deal. Same with every other AA thats not sprint. I've witnessed what jetpacks can do at a higher level of play and it's absurd. Why do you think MLG put it in maps as a power item pick up?

Like I said, this is where we will never agree. You think the risks balance out the absurd level of freedom of movement you get with it. I think they don't. Let's leave it at that otherwise we're going to be arguing this forever.
 

wwm0nkey

Member
PsychoRaven said:
I dunno. Frankie says that and look at his motto. I like Sprinkles!!! or something like that. Now who used the word Sprinkles in reply to a post around here? Huh? Huh? huh Frankie? Or should we call you Mr Dongblain?
My god, it all makes sense now! lol
 

wwm0nkey

Member
Was the frankie comic-con interview posted where he mentioned the TU will be hitting November or a little bit then?

I wanted it in September D:
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
wwm0nkey said:
Was the frankie comic-con interview posted where he mentioned the TU will be hitting November or a little bit then?

I wanted it in September D:
TU date is not set. Nov 15th is simply the latest date, for obvious reasons.
 

wwm0nkey

Member
OuterWorldVoice said:
TU date is not set. Nov 15th is simply the latest date, for obvious reasons.
Ah ok then, makes sense.

Also you kind of looked like you where about to barf in the first few seconds of that video btw, was the smell at comic-con that bad this year? lol
 

ElRenoRaven

Member
Good interview Frankie did. I really can't wait till Halofest. It seems that is when we'll get some real good footage of Anniversary and some good info on Halo 4.
 

wwm0nkey

Member
PsychoRaven said:
Good interview Frankie did. I really can't wait till Halofest. It seems that is when we'll get some real good footage of Anniversary and some good info on Halo 4.
Yeah Halo Fest will be an awesome day :)

34 more days to go!

Letters said:
Link? I want to do frankodongblaingags.gif
Here
 

wwm0nkey

Member
PsychoRaven said:
Gah. Damn double post.

Oh that's not the video I watched. That's a different one. Time to watch it.
The one you posted was better, like I said it looks like Frankie is about to barf in the one I posted XD
 

Sibylus

Banned
A27 Tawpgun said:
The jetpack argument doesn't apply to Big Team Battle.
It does and it should, because at no point did I suggest that it was suited to be universally available in every map. I know very well that it causes a fair bit of chaos on small-medium sized maps, I've said as much before. This sort of problem is especially salient on remakes, because the map layout is far older than the Jetpack and it'd be fair to say that each were made for very different ends. Even for particular new maps (such as Boardwalk), the scales aren't quite right. So no, I don't disagree with you much when the map in question is more geared toward close encounters and ground combat. Your cited examples aren't ones I particularly disagree with.

On the scale I was arguing (that is, BTB), the Jetpack isn't the best combat-suited AA a significant portion of the time. Most others will facilitate entry into cover without also increasing the player's profile, but the Jetpack must do so to achieve the same. In combat itself, the other AAs will tend to be more useful in the flatter regions of the map where horizontal movement is more valuable than vertical (and as I've said before, a map with the 'pack should definitely have a sizable amount of these). It isn't particularly suited as an anti-vehicle AA, and use more or less puts the player deeper into the realm of his hardest counter (the air vehicle). Even if the user isn't airborne at present, they're more likely to be higher up on elevated terrain and will have to go even higher if they use the AA defensively.

Like I said, this is where we will never agree. You think the risks balance out the absurd level of freedom of movement you get with it. I think they don't. Let's leave it at that otherwise we're going to be arguing this forever.
You say this, but without recognition that there is grounds of similar opinion. Jetpack as a loadout on small-medium sized infantry maps? Yeah, I can see that that's broken. Jetpack as an MLG pickup? For the map scales and gametypes they're working with, I can certainly see the sense in enforcing scarcity.

The thrust of my argument has always been that the Jetpack's value is at the opposite end of the spectrum, where the scale of the map varies the usefulness of AAs
(save for armor lock, which in truth is a counter to everything, and yet is countered by nothing)
with regions practical (+) and unpractical (-). For obvious reasons, maps like Reflection are all plus for Jetpacks and no minus. Maps such as Spire or Paradiso on the other hand have pluses and minuses spread all over the terrain, with the former tending toward elevation and terrain impasses, and the latter tending toward open horizontal stretches with long sightlines. This sort of balance isn't something that can really be achieved on the small-medium sized infantry map in Reach as it stands, which more often than not need their soft barriers to remain barriers (for reasons of power weapons and positioning especially, as you noted).
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Good interview. 343 has a big juggling act, not only in threading the needle in terms of gameplay in Halo 4 but in which features to build around it. The noises made so far have been quite soothing.

Also, it helps to have a good interviewer, as well as interviewee. The guy knew not to ask specific questions that couldn't be answered while still gently prodding on the subjects in a way that let Frankie answer, instead of "we're not talking about that". So many interviews are hard to watch from that standpoint.
 

feel

Member
Poor Frank can't have a drink in peace. He was noticeable tipsy there at the beginning but got his shit together fast
 

ElRenoRaven

Member
wwm0nkey said:
Mine was



lol

Good god. Halogaf has Mike Dongblain on the brain. At least it gives us something to come together around at least. We're too busy trying to figure that out instead of fighting. lmao
 

wwm0nkey

Member
PsychoRaven said:
Good god. Halogaf has Mike Dongblain on the brain. At least it gives us something to come together around at least. We're too busy trying to figure that out instead of fighting. lmao
Might as well talk about stupid shit than fight lol
 
GhaleonEB said:
Good interview. 343 has a big juggling act, not only in threading the needle in terms of gameplay in Halo 4 but in which features to build around it. The noises made so far have been quite soothing.

Also, it helps to have a good interviewer, as well as interviewee. The guy knew not to ask specific questions that couldn't be answered while still gently prodding on the subjects in a way that let Frankie answer, instead of "we're not talking about that". So many interviews are hard to watch from that standpoint.

Yeah, the guy is a big fan and when Halo 3 was just released, he hosted a show on machinima called inside Halo which later became inside gaming because of the lack of Halo news.

You don't see him that much anymore talking about Halo because of the CoD epidemic but in such interviews, you can still see he's a halo fan at heart.
 

ElRenoRaven

Member
wwm0nkey said:
No, but mental issues sure can

Yup. You nailed it right on the money. It's just like back in the days. The big boogeyman was Music. Then it was movies. Now it's games. Anything can make someone that's fucked in the head kill. Anything can set them off.

And oh boy it looks like we have our new Jack Thompson.

"These games are addictive. Kids get addicted like they do to drugs." On the games industry, he said, "I'm gonna fight them. They put weapons in the hands of our children that teaches them to murder, and that killing is okay."
 

wwm0nkey

Member
A27_StarWolf said:
I found it interesting Halo was the game in this case, it is usual something more violent, or they claim it is.
Well I mean the guy in this case did play a lot of Halo didn't he?

Also I remember on my local news station a few years back when they where talking about ultra violent games, Halo was always brought up....I just laughed.
 

Plywood

NeoGAF's smiling token!
A27_StarWolf said:
On a more serious note,

http://games.ign.com/articles/118/1183727p1.html

How do you guys feel about this issue, can video games cause a kid to shoot his own mother?

I feel it is relevant, and it is halo related.
Games do not actively educate people on how to kill. The boy likely has mental issues to be pushed to killing his own mother. But the games will receive the blame instead of bad parenting.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/charles-tsai/can-violent-games-promote_b_889606.html
ibZ6x.jpg


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/28/opinion/28olson.html
Teenage boys may be more interested in the chain saws, but there’s no evidence that this leads to violent behavior in real life. F.B.I. data shows that youth violence continues to decline; it is now at its lowest rate in years, while bullying appears to be stable or decreasing.

Next, why is IGN reporting a murder from 2007 now in 2011?
 

Tawpgun

Member
Botolf said:
It does and it should, because at no point did I suggest that it was suited to be universally available in every map. I know very well that it causes a fair bit of chaos on small-medium sized maps, I've said as much before. This sort of problem is especially salient on remakes, because the map layout is far older than the Jetpack and it'd be fair to say that each were made for very different ends. Even for particular new maps (such as Boardwalk), the scales aren't quite right. So no, I don't disagree with you much when the map in question is more geared toward close encounters and ground combat. Your cited examples aren't ones I particularly disagree with.

On the scale I was arguing (that is, BTB), the Jetpack isn't the best combat-suited AA a significant portion of the time. Most others will facilitate entry into cover without also increasing the player's profile, but the Jetpack must do so to achieve the same. In combat itself, the other AAs will tend to be more useful in the flatter regions of the map where horizontal movement is more valuable than vertical (and as I've said before, a map with the 'pack should definitely have a sizable amount of these). It isn't particularly suited as an anti-vehicle AA, and use more or less puts the player deeper into the realm of his hardest counter (the air vehicle). Even if the user isn't airborne at present, they're more likely to be higher up on elevated terrain and will have to go even higher if they use the AA defensively.


You say this, but without recognition that there is grounds of similar opinion. Jetpack as a loadout on small-medium sized infantry maps? Yeah, I can see that that's broken. Jetpack as an MLG pickup? For the map scales and gametypes they're working with, I can certainly see the sense in enforcing scarcity.

The thrust of my argument has always been that the Jetpack's value is at the opposite end of the spectrum, where the scale of the map varies the usefulness of AAs
(save for armor lock, which in truth is a counter to everything, and yet is countered by nothing)
with regions practical (+) and unpractical (-). For obvious reasons, maps like Reflection are all plus for Jetpacks and no minus. Maps such as Spire or Paradiso on the other hand have pluses and minuses spread all over the terrain, with the former tending toward elevation and terrain impasses, and the latter tending toward open horizontal stretches with long sightlines. This sort of balance isn't something that can really be achieved on the small-medium sized infantry map in Reach as it stands, which more often than not need their soft barriers to remain barriers (for reasons of power weapons and positioning especially, as you noted).

Fair enough. I meant BTB doesn't count because the Jetpack is fine in BTB. Might be a little annoying on the smaller BTB maps, but overall its fine.

So basically everyone is in agreement hopefully... that the Jetpack does not belong on most if not all of the small-midsize maps.

Imagine playing Annivesery Maps with Jetpack... *shudders*

Classic ++ will be my new home if they nail it. I hope it becomes its own hopper. Squad Classic = 4 v 4 BTB Classic = 8 v 8. This is assuming a BTB map is one of the remakes...
Headlong/Terminal/Waterworks pllllzzz
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Letters said:
Poor Frank can't have a drink in peace. He was noticeable tipsy there at the beginning but got his shit together fast
I was sober AND not throwing up. I must have had temporary Dongblainitis.
 
OuterWorldVoice said:
I was sober AND not throwing up. I must have had temporary Dongblainitis.

The socially responsible term is "Dongblain's Syndrome". We cannot continue to treat this condition so casually.

Speededit: Not throwing up I believe...but sober??? No freeeking way.
 

Dacon

Banned
Guys, I've had Reach since it launched but I never really got into the MP because my friends didn't have it. Now that changed.

My issue is, I have terrible lag in all of the co-op modes, but none in the regular competitive modes.

Anyone got a solution to this problem for me?
 

MrBig

Member
Dacon said:
Guys, I've had Reach since it launched but I never really got into the MP because my friends didn't have it. Now that changed.

My issue is, I have terrible lag in all of the co-op modes, but none in the regular competitive modes.

Anyone got a solution to this problem for me?
Co-op modes use lock-step, so the game experience is based around ping. If you play with people who have poor connections or are simply at a great distance from you, you will experience unresponsiveness. MP lets the client do whatever they want and then sends it to the host so its not noticeable there.
 
Dacon said:
My issue is, I have terrible lag in all of the co-op modes, but none in the regular competitive modes.

Anyone got a solution to this problem for me?

1. Enter the Big Team Battle playlist with your friends.
2. Pretend that everyone else in the playlist is actually a computer-controlled Covenant soldier in disguise.
3. Every so often yell out "Round Over!" or "Weapon Drop!".
4. Wish that someday everyone has fiOS.
5. Fin.
 
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