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[watership]

I remember when D.B. Weiss wrote a screenplay for the Halo film.. come so far.

 

[Budi]

Wolfenstein doesn't portray the Nazis as some kind of moral gray area. They are horrible fascist pieces of shit that have gigantic concentration camps, zombie monster, etc. That and the entire game is about brutally murdering them for their evils.

How about movies about violent crime? I sometimes see criticism of movies like Goodfellas as it would be glorifying crime. And I really can't agree with that either. But to some people the take away will be, "man this is so cool!" Just like "little gangsters" often have Tony Montana posters and t-shirts. Tony Montana was portrayed like a horrible guy, but people still do admire the character.

 

[DarthMasta]

A whole bunch of people assuming a whole lot about something that hasn't even started filming ITT.

 

[HStallion]

How about movies about violent crime? I sometimes see criticism of movies like Goodfellas as it would be glorifying crime. And I really can't agree with that either. But to some people the take away will be, "man this is so cool!" Just like "little gangsters" often have Tony Montana posters and t-shirts. Tony Montana was portrayed like a horrible guy, but people still do admire the character.

Yeah and I often find those people absolutely foolish.

 

[Budi]

Yeah and I often find those people absolutely foolish.

Absolutely, just like I would find anyone foolish who thinks about this show "Wow this is a world I want to live in!" or "I'd love to have a black slave!".

Also the new Wolfenstein trailer did humanize the nazi with the milkshake. He was polite, he was nice to the kid, what a swell guy. But he is also a horrible monster. Then we have Hans Landa, ofcourse he does get what's coming to him in the end.

 

[JustenP88]

Do people really think that a Confederate-descended society is going to be portrayed as anything other than a hellhole on a major television network in 2017?

There is a decent chance it will be tasteless in one or more respects, certainly, but the notion that the alt-right/white nationalists are going to be the target audience, or that it's somehow unjustified to assume that it will be dystopic when that is extremely likely to have been literally how it would have been pitched to executives, is utterly bizarre to me.

As someone living in, what feels like, the heart of Trumpistan, it gives me chills that this concept is being used for the purposes of entertainment. Regardless of the depiction, this is not a topic I want people to be encouraged to discuss openly around the water cooler.

Creeps. Me. The. Fuck. Out. There's cars in our office parking lot right now with Confederate flag vanity plates and stickers. The man so nice he was named after Confederate leaders twice is our Attorney General. A reality TV buffoon just won the presidency armed with nothing but a fake tan and a basket full of dog whistles. We're not adult enough as a country right now, imo, to be innocently entertained by this sort of alt-history.

 

[Whompa02]

Dude... please stop.


Asking why I'm ok with a black super hero show (showrun by a black man) but not ok with a what if black folks were still slaves show (showrun by two white guys with a not great track record) in 2017 is absurd.

Youd be pretty silly to assume HBO would just greenlight a show that panders to the, "slavery is okay" crowd. If you think they're going to sugar coat that or somehow justify it, you're crazy.

That's just an insane implication.

Because I am done with watching slave movies so now HBO wants to make a show based around the confederate winning. I am not about to boycott the show or anything but I am not trying to watch a whole 8 seasons of likely being disgusted lol.

I can sympathize with that. At the same time, I still think everyone needs to understand how bad slavery was. Same goes with the atrocities of world war 2. The world requires history...even if it's in the form of alternative works of fiction. As long as the message is still baked in there.

 

[Adam Sadler]

HBO had to have some balance on their channel after approving that Jordan Peele show and that Who Fears Death adaption lol

 

[HStallion]

Absolutely, just like I would find anyone foolish who thinks about this show "Wow this is a world I want to live in!" or "I'd love to have a black slave!".

Also the new Wolfenstein trailer did humanize the nazi with the milkshake. He was polite, he was nice to the kid, what a swell guy. But he is also a horrible monster. Then we have Hans Landa, ofcourse he does get what's coming to him in the end.

I mean did it? A woman and child literally flea at the sight of him and he's incredibly menacing from moment one. Its hardly what I'd call humanizing

 

[Budi]

I mean did it? A woman and child literally flea at the sight of him and he's incredibly menacing from moment one. Its hardly what I'd call humanizing

Yeah they were afraid of him, just like there will be people in this show who will fear and hate the slave owners.

 

[Kinsei]

Absolutely, just like I would find anyone foolish who thinks about this show "Wow this is a world I want to live in!" or "I'd love to have a black slave!".

Also the new Wolfenstein trailer did humanize the nazi with the milkshake. He was polite, he was nice to the kid, what a swell guy. But he is also a horrible monster. Then we have Hans Landa, ofcourse he does get what's coming to him in the end.

The Wolfenstein trailer did nothing to humanize the milkshake Nazi. That scene was meant to be incredibly unsettling almost like you were talking to a hideous monster wearing a human skin suit.

 

[HStallion]

Yeah they were afraid of him, just like there will be people in this show who will fear and hate the slave owners.

Except I doubt Wolfenstein is going to have BJ going to this guys home to meet his family or learn about all the good done under the Nazis. No its probably going to have BJ ramming that Milk Shake down the guys through before blowing his brains out. Wolfenstein is not a good comparison as the Nazis are not only evil but they get murdered, not fleshed out.

 

[Straight Edge]

Even Birth of a Nation "humanizes" Hammer's slave owner character.

 

[finowns]

Do people really think that a Confederate-descended society is going to be portrayed as anything other than a hellhole on a major television network in 2017?

There is a decent chance it will be tasteless in one or more respects, certainly, but the notion that the alt-right/white nationalists are going to be the target audience, or that it's somehow unjustified to assume that it will be dystopic when that is extremely likely to have been literally how it would have been pitched to executives, is utterly bizarre to me.

I think they will be influenced by GoT so the POVs will be treated as humans and not caricatures, that's where most of criticism is coming from I think. But maybe not who knows; probably won't be interested in it.

 

[Bronx-Man]

Do people really think that a Confederate-descended society is going to be portrayed as anything other than a hellhole on a major television network in 2017?

There is a decent chance it will be tasteless in one or more respects, certainly, but the notion that the alt-right/white nationalists are going to be the target audience, or that it's somehow unjustified to assume that it will be dystopic when that is extremely likely to have been literally how it would have been pitched to executives, is utterly bizarre to me.

When going full liberal backfires on your audience.

Obviously the alternate history timeline is going to set up a big problem for the heroes of this story, and I don't see how anyone can see it any other way. What I'm more surprised about, is the complete outright rejection of this premise from a good portion of the target fanbase.

Does it pander too much? I'm genuinely curious why people are SO against this.

I don't understand that straight dismissal of this. Wolfenstein didn't have this kind of backlash for it's alternate history where Nazi's won. Or maybe there was and I just wasn't aware of it. Correct me if wrong.

Edit: Also the mentioned Handmaid's tale is a good example. I don't think it's "subtle" either. I bet many people would love for a world like that. Doesn't mean the show endorses it.

"Why are black people not excited for a show focusing on what it would be like if they were still considered cattle in 2017?"

 

[excelsiorlef]

Youd be pretty silly to assume HBO would just greenlight a show that panders to the, "slavery is okay" crowd. If you think they're going to sugar coat that or somehow justify it, you're crazy.

That's just an insane implication.

Weird.


Never said or implied any of that.

You did however make some weird analogy that implied I had to be ok with a black slave show if I'm ok with a black super hero show... So maybe don't throw stones in your glass house when lobbing accusations of insane implications.

 

[Straight Edge]

I think they will be influenced by GoT so the POVs will be treated as humans and not caricatures, that's where most of criticism is coming from I think. Not something I want.

Slavers and Nazis are humans and can be portrayed as such without condoning their actions. A one dimensional caricature isn't going to serve anyone.

 

[Budi]

The Wolfenstein trailer did nothing to humanize the milkshake Nazi. That scene was meant to be incredibly unsettling almost like you were talking to a hideous monster wearing a human skin suit.

I mean yeah, that's how I assume I will see the slave owners even when they aren't portrayed as comically evil caricatures in the show. The point is that person can be nice, respectful and so on when they are adressing someone who they deem to be equal with them. But then they dehumanize people for different skin color and treat them worse than animals. It's not like we can immediately spot racists in our every day lives when they aren't doing or saying something racist. There can be plenty of racists as your co-workers, but you'd have no idea since "they are always so nice".

 

[excelsiorlef]

"Why are black people not excited for a show focusing on what it would be like if they were still considered cattle in 2017?"

Yeah but dude you're ok with Luke Cage right sooo... /s

 

[finowns]

Slavers and Nazis are humans and can be portrayed as such without condoning their actions. A one dimensional caricature isn't going to serve anyone.

Sure I agree, but you have to admit it's a depressing topic/subject.

 

[DarthMasta]

In a world with Man in the High Castle and Handmaid's Tale on TV, I don't see why this is a bridge too far. But then, nobody's forced to watch this, and it's true that GoT has had some less than kosher imagery.

Of course after GoT, if these people had said they want to make a series where the Confederates are the good guys there's a decent chance it would get made. I trust that's not what they'll be doing...

 

[HStallion]

I mean yeah, that's how I assume I will see the slave owners even when they aren't portrayed as comically evil caricatures in the show. The point is that person can be nice, respectful and so on when they are adressing someone who they deem to be equal with them. But then they dehumanize people for different skin color and treat them worse than animals. It's not like we can immediately spot racists in our every day lives when they aren't doing or saying something racist. There can be plenty of racists as your co-workers, but you'd have no idea since "they are always so nice".

Again the big difference is Wolfenstein does nothing to make the Nazi's seem like they're good people. Even when we learn more about Frau Engel in the first game its not like,"Oh she has some good qualities I can relate to", its more along the lines of,"This fucking lady is absolutely out of her god damned mind and scary as Hell". Let's not forget the main villain is nick named "Death's Head" and turns people into literal killing machines.

 

[Whompa02]

"Why are black people not excited for a show focusing on what it would be like if they were still considered cattle in 2017?"

Didn't seem to be a problem for Get Out, but okay. Sure. I get where you're coming from.

We haven't even seen a trailer or anything on it, so we have no idea of the tone/style of the show, but I'm willing to give it until the trailer to really decide how bad of an idea it is.

 

[Marmaladefire]

Slavers and Nazis are humans and can be portrayed as such without condoning their actions. A one dimensional caricature isn't going to serve anyone.

Why? What's the fucking point? To have a shot of some slaver sitting at a dinner table with his kids and raping a black woman two scenes later? For what purpose? "Humanity is complex~~~"

We already know. Yes, even without the further exploitation of a group of people who literally show signs of PTSD because they have to see themselves murdered on the evening news every night.

 

[Budi]

Again the big difference is Wolfenstein does nothing to make the Nazi's seem like they're good people. Even when we learn more about Frau Engel in the first game its not like,"Oh she has some good qualities I can relate to", its more along the lines of,"This fucking lady is absolutely out of her god damned mind and scary as Hell"

Having some good qualities doesn't excuse atrocities. But maybe that's just me.

 

[HStallion]

Having some good qualities doesn't excuse atrocities. But maybe that's just me.

You missed my point, they don't even portray her as a good person when you get to learn more about her.

 

[platocplx]

Didn't seem to be a problem for Get Out, but okay. Sure. I get where you're coming from.

We haven't even seen a trailer or anything on it, so we have no idea of the tone/style of the show, but I'm willing to give it until the trailer to really decide how bad of an idea it is.

uh what? this isnt anything like django or get out based on how its being described. especially when it doesnt seem like there are empowered people of color in it. lol christ.

Having some good qualities doesn't excuse atrocities. But maybe that's just me.

yup. i wish way more people understood that.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Also please remember that many folks went to bat for those new rape scenes, when people criticized it for being superfluous, unnecessary and exploitative, because it was "realistic" and all that jazz....

I so look forward to revisiting those arguments almost weekly with this show.

 

[HStallion]

Didn't seem to be a problem for Get Out, but okay. Sure. I get where you're coming from.

We haven't even seen a trailer or anything on it, so we have no idea of the tone/style of the show, but I'm willing to give it until the trailer to really decide how bad of an idea it is.

Get Out portrayed all those people as absolute insane scum. There was little humanization of their parts except for the daughter. The son in the family is a fucking psycho from moment one.

 

[Budi]

You missed my point, they don't even portray her as a good person when you get to learn more about her.

How do you think they will make you see a slave owner as a good person?

 

[Robin64]

Edit: Wrong thread!

 

[HStallion]

How do you think they will make you see a slave owner as a good person?

Oh look the slave owner has a family they care about and would do anything for. Oh the slave owner is really funny and charming. Oh this slave owner is being nice to his slaves so they can't be all bad. Oh this slave owner as a sense of honor about them.

 

[cartographer]

So people know the show doesn't have to be explicitly pandering to neo-Nazis to be in bad taste right?

Why is this the sticking point other than to be dismissive of concerns? I'm curious.

 

[Marmaladefire]

Oh look the slave owner has a family they care about and would do anything for. Oh the slave owner is really funny and charming. Oh this slave owner is being nice to his slaves so they can't be all bad.

One might even secretly ship off one of their mulatto bastard children to the north!

Look. If all the black people on the internet and in life (besides the two working on this I guess) say this is a bad idea, it just is. Truthfully, nobody else's opinion actually matters about whether it's "tasteful" enough or not.

 

[hotcyder]

Genuinely can't see this having the mass appeal that GOT has - especially outside of the USA

 

[Budi]

Oh look the slave owner has a family they care about and would do anything for. Oh the slave owner is really funny and charming. Oh this slave owner is being nice to his slaves so they can't be all bad.

Racists do have families they care about so did slave owners, doesn't excuse anything.

 

[excelsiorlef]

How do you think they will make you see a slave owner as a good person?

Dude Cersei is a fucking monster and they crafted a huge scene designed to make you feel bad for her on some level and cheer on her revenge (and it worked)

 

[Servbot24]

For those unfamiliar, these are the worst screenwriters to ever helm a flagship network franchise.

Lol. If only.

 

[Whompa02]

Get Out portrayed all those people as absolute insane scum. There was little humanization of their parts except for the daughter. The son in the family is a fucking psycho from moment one.

Absolutely! I agree. Well we'll have to see how these characters are portrayed to really get a picture.

Judging a book by its cover seems to be what most people are doing though. That's why I was so curious in the first place.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Absolutely! I agree. Well we'll have to see how these characters are portrayed to really get a picture.

Judging a book by its cover seems to be what most people are doing though. That's why I was so curious in the first place.

No it's judging a book by its authors and their track record

 

[Budi]

Dude Cersei is a fucking monster and they crafted a huge scene designed to make you feel bad for her on some level and cheer on her revenge (and it worked)

I see what you are saying, but I'd HOPE people see the difference in show with dragons and show with alternate history when they choose who to root for. I'm not entirely oblivious about the subject matter of this show. I understand people being cautious, my original comment was just about the straight up dismissal of it without anything being shown. And thinking that someone is a good character, even villainous, doesn't mean that you endorse their actions.

 

[Whompa02]

No it's judging a book by its authors and their track record

Are the authors racist?

 

[excelsiorlef]

I see what you are saying, but I'd HOPE people see the difference in show with dragons and show with alternate history when they choose who to root for. I'm not entirely oblivious about the subject matter of this show. I understand people being cautious, my original comment was just about the straight up dismissal of it without anything being shown. And thinking that someone is a good character, even villanous, doesn't mean that you endorse their actions.

Why would you believe that's going to happen...

See Walter White v Skylar and that's about the same level of non fiction as this show will ever touch.

 

[platocplx]

you know what would have been a GREAT idea for a show. What if colonialism and imperialism never happened.

 

[Marmaladefire]

Are the authors racist?

They don't care about black and brown people at the very least. Certainly not giving them any positive portrayal or agency in their stories. Which makes you question why they would choose this project.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Are the authors racist?

You must really not like your glass house very much to keep throwing boulders...

Did I say they were racist?


I'm not arguing they are going to tell a pro-slavery story, I am arguing they are going to tell a likely anti-slavery story poorly in an exploitative manner.

 

[Doctoglethorpe]

Oh look the slave owner has a family they care about and would do anything for. Oh the slave owner is really funny and charming. Oh this slave owner is being nice to his slaves so they can't be all bad. Oh this slave owner as a sense of honor about them.

Man you've already seen the show, are you from the future!?

Dude Cersei is a fucking monster and they crafted a huge scene designed to make you feel bad for her on some level and cheer on her revenge (and it worked)

It did? I guess it went over my head, cause I still hate her and simply saw the ironic justice of that whole thing as she brought it on herself. I temporarily hated another character more, sure, but what the fuck difference does that make?

 

[Budi]

Why would you believe that's going to happen...

See Walter White v Skylar and that's about the same level of non fiction as this show will ever touch.

Ah yes I already said earlier that some people will root for the monsters no matter what. I'm pretty sure that even Amon Goeth played by Fiennes in Schindler's list has some fans. Just that people who already aren't glamoring for slavery to return won't be doing that even after this show. We likely won't hear comments like "oh slavery didn't seem so bad".

 

[excelsiorlef]

It did? I guess it went over my head, cause I still hate her and simply saw the ironic justice of that whole thing as she brought it on herself. I temporarily hated another character more, sure, but what the fuck difference does that make?

It also used sexual violence and debasement as punishment...

So hey if it didn't work, it worked another way.

Hence why I don't trust D&D to do this story well.

Ah yes I already said earlier that some people will root for the monsters no matter what. I'm pretty sure that even Amon Goeth played by Fiennes in Schindler's list has some fans. Just that people who already aren't glamoring for slavery to return won't be doing that even after this show. We likely won't hear comments like "oh slavery didn't seem so bad".

Few if any are arguing this is going to cause people to be pro-slavery....

 

[Whompa02]

You must really not like your glass house very much to keep throwing boulders...

Did I say they were racist?

I'm not arguing they are going to tell a pro-slavery story, I am arguing they are going to tell a likely anti-slavery story poorly in an exploitative manner.

I asked you for your opinion on whether or not you think they are. Relax on the glass house, bud. Lol...

Are the authors, in your mind, racist?

They don't care about black and brown people at the very least. Certainly not giving them any positive portrayal or agency in their stories. Which makes you question why they would choose this project.

That's fair. The writers are black though, aren't they? What makes them not care about black and brown people? Genuinely curious.