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[Kin5290]

It is so incredibly rare that I ever see people talk badly about Sherlock other than a bit of the newer stuff.

But this thread has people saying it goes downhill after the very first episode and that Elementary is better.

Elementary.

Good lord.

For one, Elementary' depiction of Moriarty is so much better than Sherlock's that it's embarrassing. Likewise with Sherlock and Watson's relationship, and Watson in general.

Never mind that the Sherlock Holmes stories were procedural in nature in the first place.

 

[| Praxis |]

Only ever watched the first two episodes and gave up, just didn't like it.

 

[daviyoung]

Because a video critique that's longer than an entire season of the thing it's critiquing just might be a tad overdone? Nah couldn't be it...

That's silly. Let's firstly ignore that it's not longer than an entire season and just focus on the apparent problem that it's too long. The criticism pulls in many sources related to but not directly referencing the focal point of the critique. This is standa d procedure to help the consumer realise the context of the criticism and to understand the arguments presented. I suppose you are new to criticism because there will be more words written about Dickens books than there are words in Dickens books.

 

[HamPster PamPster]

It is so incredibly rare that I ever see people talk badly about Sherlock other than a bit of the newer stuff.

But this thread has people saying it goes downhill after the very first episode and that Elementary is better.

Elementary.

Good lord.

I'd take the 15 best Elementary episodes over Sherlock!

Pretty much.

Elementary - 120 episodes, not one bad.

At the very least, it's the most consistent procedural I've ever seen. Jonny Lee Miller is a great Sherlock.

Well there was the one with the robot dog...

 

[Eidan]

Hbomberguy actually has two video series: "[Blank] is Garbage, And Here's Why" and, if I'm remembering correctly, "In Defense of [Blank]". No prizes for guessing which ones are positive and which aren't.

In his defense, he's saying something's bad. Very bad. For which "garbage" is a synonym. I don't see how that's hyperbole.

He has made two videos titled "x is garbage. And here's why". This is considered hyperbolic because the things he described as garbage aren't garbage. Flawed, perhaps. Maybe even divisive, though both of his targets have been highly acclaimed and highly successful. But garbage? No.

"Garbage" is a word that should be reserved for items of the lowest quality, not simply things you don't like. And other video essayists (Joseph Anderson and Noah Caldwell-Gervaise instantly spring to mind) are able to post criticisms that are every bit as scathing, without resorting to hyperbole. I think if you asked him, Hbomberguy would admit himself that the title is intentionally hyperbolic.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

For one, Elementary' depiction of Moriarty is so much better than Sherlock's that it's embarrassing. Likewise with Sherlock and Watson's relationship, and Watson in general.

Never mind that the Sherlock Holmes stories were procedural in nature in the first place.

Sherlock and Watson had a great dynamic in episode 1 of the BBC show. I particularly liked Freeman's portrayal of Watson as a military man who has seen some shit and doesn't crack under pressure. But then the very next episode we see Watson breaking and kind of panicking under pressure when kidnapped. From there on, his military history is stuffed under a rug and he becomes just a plain dude. Luckily, Freeman himself is fun to watch so he still carries the character. But Sherlock later also turns into an action savant, and it bugs the shit out of me. I've never read the books, but Sherlock seemed to be stepping all over Watson's toes in terms of character dynamics.

 

[SchrodingerC]

I liked season one well enough, even though the show's characterization and portrayal of Moriarty was garbage.
I dislike Moffat's need to make Sherlock the most awesomest, super-special being to ever investigate crimes; the Doctor from Dr. Who suffered from this same problem, as HBG has explained.

Moffat is better as a writer(mostly) than as a showrunner.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Considering the showrunner is Moffat I'm inclined to agree.

 

[Syder]

I swear the only responses in defence of Sherlock have been:

• I don't like this critic [for no stated reason]
• LOL he likes Elementary
• LOL he likes the Guy Ritchie movies
• I like Sherlock so there...

And for a show with such a large following I just expected more because I haven't really heard a good comeback to the argument that Sherlock starts off as a show promising great things and not only never delivers but rapidly descends into an insulting mess.

I personally can't stand this YouTuber. He's a garbage critic.

Sorry but this is just shitposting. You didn't qualify your statement at all.

I don't think H.Bomberguy is perfect by any means (his DS2 critique was totally misguided) but he's put out some seriously good content; his FO3 critique is essential viewing, for example.

 

[moggio]

He has made two videos titled "x is garbage. And here's why". This is considered hyperbolic because the things he described as garbage aren't garbage. Flawed, perhaps. Maybe even divisive, though both of his targets have been highly acclaimed and highly successful. But garbage? No.

Sherlock is garbage.

 

[Brandon F]

There have been a bunch of Holmes adaptations lately, but the only one I've actually thought was great was Ian McKellen's Mr. Holmes.

Didn't really love this although it was well acted.

 

[Kaladin]

Honest Trailers did it better.

 

[SeanC]

I'm not watching two hours of this.

Criticism/analysis isn't about how long winded you are it's about setting up your argument and knocking it down with structured points - less of how much you say and more how you say it. If you can't make a point under two hours then you're just creating an echo chamber of ranting and showcasing the love of your own voice.

 

[Eidan]

Sherlock is garbage.

It's harmless entertainment that starts off strong but falls victim to increasingly fantastic storylines that strain the audience's suspension of disbelief. Flawed? Absolutely. Garbage? Nah.

 

[BorkBork]

Another critic's take over the years, this time in long text form:

Sherlock Season 1:

I've written a lot here about the things that frustrate or anger me about Sherlock, so it may sound strange if I say that I actually like the show a lot and look forward to the next batch of episodes. The thing is, the problems with the show are the things about it that stick out--the inconsistency between chapters, the laziness of borrowing Holmes's characterization from another television series, the often shoddy plotting, the ghastly writing for women--whereas what works, what I found enjoyable and even lovable, is more in the realm of ambiance--the worldbuilding I've already written about, but also the chemistry between Freeman and Cumberbatch, and more than either of these the sense that this really is Holmes, not quite Conan Doyle's Holmes but Holmes nonetheless, brought to the 21st century. That's certainly enough to bring me back, even though I suspect that the series will never deliver the character development that "A Study in Pink" seemed to promise, and that its female characters will never improve. What I'd like, however, if the Sherlock that I wanted can never be, is a little more care in the construction of the episodic, Conan Doyle-esque Sherlock that Moffat and Gatiss seem interested in. Let's have a lot more "Study in Pink"s, and a lot fewer "Blind Banker"s.

Sherlock Season 2

"What season two, with its emphasis on the big guns of the Holmes canon, has brought into focus is that what's wrong with Sherlock is, well, Sherlock. Not the character, who is great, nor Cumberbatch, whose showier role makes him easy to dismiss but who handles what is actually a tough job with aplomb, switching easily between funny Sherlock, amazing Sherlock, and terrifying Sherlock and making great meals of all of them. No, the problem is the show's infatuation with Sherlock, and its willingness to set all considerations of plot and character aside in order to let him do his thing. That infatuation is the reason that "A Scandal in Bohemia" and The Hound of the Baskervilles are neutered in their Sherlock versions--because this is not the show whose main character can realize that he is a minor character in someone else's story, or step back to let John drive a story. The problem, however, runs deeper than simply a bad choice of source material, as "The Reichenbach Fall" demonstrates. Sherlock only comes together when it's told from John's point of view, when his normal, ordinary perspective is allowed to mediate Sherlock's extraordinary one. But the show is too in love with Sherlock to ever let that happen."

Sherlock Season 3

Moffat's writing has always been characterized by a desire to hit the big emotional payoff without doing any of the work of earning it, and Sherlock's stylistic quirks only intensify that flaw. So that when Sherlock once again declares, before shooting Magnussen at the end of "His Final Vow," that he is a high-functioning sociopath, this feels more like empty posturing, the repetition of a by-now meaningless phrase, than any true insight into the character (besides which, Moffat has grown far too fond of the sociopath label, sprinkling it liberally on multiple characters in both Sherlock and Doctor Who as a substitute for actually developing them as people).

The Abominable Bride

"Holmes has been reimagined and reinvented dozens of times since his creation more than a century ago, and the best of these variations retain a certain essential Holmes-ishness no matter how much they change the character. So why not tell a story in which these different versions meet and comment on each other? Especially one that also reminds us how much Holmes, even within his own story, is mediated by his chronicler? The problem, unfortunately, is that by calling attention to Holmes's many facets, Moffat and co-creator Mark Gatiss (who is also credited as writer on this episode) remind us how little they understand the character. Or rather, how much they want him to be something he was never meant to be. No matter how badly Moffat wants it, Sherlock Holmes is not a superhero. He is not an elemental force binding the universe together, and he is definitely not The Doctor. What makes Holmes such an evergreen and resilient character is, on the contrary, his humanity--his kindness, his decency, his appreciation of human folly and weirdness--and this is something that Sherlock has never been able to accept. "The Abominable Bride," like so many Sherlock stories before it, tries to tell us that we need Sherlock to save the world, when this has never been Holmes's function, and has always been the least interesting and least convincing use to which the show has put its title character."

 

[Nose Master]

Just saw the first episode of season 4, it's still bad. I really liked the first season. It's so shallow with pandering to it's fanbase now, it really hurts the show. Same thing that happened to the new who.

 

[Struct09]

I thought the first season was alright but it's been on a downward spiral since then in terms of quality. My wife enjoyed it up through series 3, but the first episode of series 4 seems to have turned her off of the show.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Another critic's take over the years, this time in long text form:

Sherlock Season 1:



Sherlock Season 2


Sherlock Season 3



The Abominable Bride

Just reading these snippets, and this writer seems on point with my feelings. I've never heavily pondered what I dislike about Sherlock, but reading some of these I think "that's a damn good point." Like this one is so damn true:

Sherlock only comes together when it's told from John's point of view, when his normal, ordinary perspective is allowed to mediate Sherlock's extraordinary one. But the show is too in love with Sherlock to ever let that happen."

I'll read these completely once I get home tonight.

 

[GustyGardens]

I don't mind the show at all. I haven't seen the latest series, but I've enjoyed the last three. My issues with Sherlock come from the depiction of the title character. We rarely ever see much beyond the cold and callous facade that he puts on during his cases. There's a lot more to the character, but for some reason the Sherlock show steers away from it. There are some glimpses of it here and there.

Elementary's version of Sherlock is a much better adaptation of the character.

 

[M0nochromatic]

I only saw the first 2 seasons and I thought they were alright. It really shocked me when he gets to the Contempt portion of the critique. I thought he was being tad hyperbolic in the beginning, but any show that treats the source material so poorly and actively shows disdain for its core fanbase should be called out for being trash that it is.

 

[stupei]

Seems kind of weird considering his whole defense of Dark Souls 2 was "not being what you knew and loved doesn't make a thing bad."

I don't think his argument here is "it's bad because it's different" so much as "telling us someone is smart over and over instead of writing situations in which they actually demonstrate to us, the viewers, that they are in fact very smart is terrible and uninteresting writing." Which is true.

It's not bad because it's different. It's bad because it is subjectively unfit to the genre or in fact most forms of storytelling where "show don't tell" is a pretty reliable barometer for whether or not an idea is legitimately engaging to the viewer.

The last point does seem dumb. Faulting a show because the filmmaking is too good? Okay.

Since we're using Youtubers to validate our opinions, here's Nerdwriter espousing the strengths of Sherlock's editing and camera work.

https://youtu.be/bfFgnJoLiQE

No, the point he makes is that at times the camerawork is style over substance. There is no narrative or storytelling function served by a lot of the choices. They are there just to be there, to be the thing people might talk about the next day at work. They're not intended to help you understand the characters or their stories.

But I guess focusing on the characters would be a mistake since the writing for most of them is so regularly inconsistent; the flash is there to distract you from the fact that there is little else to the show at all.

Filmmaking that offers nothing to the narrative or characterization isn't "too good." It's actually very bad, even if it's also pretty and distracting.

It is so incredibly rare that I ever see people talk badly about Sherlock other than a bit of the newer stuff.

But this thread has people saying it goes downhill after the very first episode and that Elementary is better.

Elementary.

Good lord.

That's because Elementary is better despite the limitations of the platform, the obviously much lower budget, and having more hours of television in its first half of its first season than the entire run of BBC Sherlock.

Yes, people are babies because they don't want to watch 2 god damn hours of someone giving his subjective opinion of a tv show even though many of these points have been raised over and over again.

If you're not interested in actually engaging with the topic of a thread, you don't have to post in it.

 

[zoukka]

I've been calling him the Zack Snyder of British TV because he's very skilled at the craft of making a scene that appears dramatic or emotional and absolutely abysmal at constructing any of the context to make such a scene actually land. But I think Lindelof might be better

Sure if you compare the worst scenes of the whole series to the best movies Snyder ever made. Even then it's a stretch.

I swear the only responses in defence of Sherlock have been:

• I don't like this critic [for no stated reason]
• LOL he likes Elementary
• LOL he likes the Guy Ritchie movies
• I like Sherlock so there...

• 
  
  You can check the Sherlock thread for long posts about that.

 

[RS4-]

I couldn't bother with that Bride of whatever shit, and I don't think I even finished the first ep of the last series.

 

[Syder]

You can check the Sherlock thread for long posts about that.

Defending the show?

My impression was a large amount of hardcore fans had turned on the show after S4.

 

[Enosh]

I enjoyed season 1 and 2, season 3 went so far up it's own ass I didn't even watch season 4 yet
and Elementary is great, Sherlock is an actual human being, Watson is useful and everything around Moriarty was just amazing, sadly the character didn't return in a while

 

[zoukka]

Defending the show?

My impression was a large amount of hardcore fans had turned on the show after S4.

Yes it's the weakest season. I don't see how that affects any previous seasons though. And a weak Sherlock season is still pretty enjoyable TV.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

My kneejerk reaction to Elementary was to hate it because of probably dumb reasons...but hearing so much praise here. Maybe I'll finally give it a try.

Defending the show?

My impression was a large amount of hardcore fans had turned on the show after S4.

I'm not sure if I qualify as hardcore, but I love Sherlock enough to have purchased season 1 and 2 on bluray. And I honestly turned on it with season 3. It was just...so bad. There is only one moment that stands out to me that I loved. I haven't been able to bring myself to watch the special, or any of season 4 yet. Season 3 might have killed the show for me.

 

[meow]

I watched Seasons 1-3 and liked them at the time. The only ones that stick out to me though are S1-E1 and whichever episode had Irene Adler. I loved the Irene Adler episode

Spoiler

maybe I just loved Irene Adler

 

[Doctor Bat]

Everyone seems to hate on Sherlock now. I remain steadfast in my devotion to it. I enjoyed every minute of it.

So...

Said GIF being from a moment in Series 1 that purposely shits on the originals stories to seem clever.

 

[Magwik]

Moffat and Lindelof are up their own asses about how genius they are? Examples?

Can anyone coherently describe what the fuck was going on with the TARDIS/Silence through Matt Smith's tenure as the Doctor?
Or how about River Song going from being out of sync time wise with the Doctor to: his wife, half time Lord, the daughter of his companion because TARDIS energy, also tried to kill Hitler, and a big evil group wanted to use her as a baby as a super weapon.

 

[zoukka]

I watched Seasons 1-3 and liked them at the time. The only ones that stick out to me though are S1-E1 and whichever episode had Irene Adler. I loved the Irene Adler episode

Spoiler

maybe I just loved Irene Adler

That episode left me melancholic yet happy for a week :')

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Said GIF being from a moment in Series 1 that purposely shits on the originals stories to seem clever.

What? Genuinely...what?

Can anyone coherently describe what the fuck was going on with the TARDIS/Silence through Matt Smith's tenure as the Doctor?
Or how about River Song going from being out of sync time wise with the Doctor to: his wife, half time Lord, the daughter of his companion because TARDIS energy, also tried to kill Hitler, and a big evil group wanted to use her as a baby as a super weapon.

I believe he was looking for examples of them being up their own asses and thinking they're geniuses, and not just examples of things from the show you don't like.

 

[louiedog]

I mostly watched hbomberguy's videos around Gamergate stuff and it's been awhile since I've seen any of his stuff.

7 minutes in to this one and he's already won me over by mirroring my Doctor Who complaints so I'm going to prematurely call this entire video super successful and perfect. I really can't wait for him to step away from the series.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Moffat and Lindelof are up their own asses about how genius they are? Examples?

Watch the video. The end of it does an amazing job at pointing out the writers decided to devote a sizeable amount of an episode to highlight their disdain for people who actually tried to figure out the mystery of how Sherlock survived the fall, despite that being the series cliffhanger. He also does a good job at showing how they wanted to show to be much smarter that the source material. Also, it's a fucking boomerang.

I thought I liked the show but after a re-watch at the end of last year I soured on it. I managed to figure out who the killer was in the first episode before Sherlock did because it was the only one in the entire run of the show that actually gave the viewer the information to do such.

 

[Syder]

Yes it's the weakest season. I don't see how that affects any previous seasons though. And a weak Sherlock season is still pretty enjoyable TV.

I think weak is fairly generous. Season 4 was a complete waste of time.

For me, the show took a serious nosedive with the introduction of Mary in season 3, robbing the series of the good promise it had in the early seasons.

What? Genuinely...what?

Sherlock shuts the door on the guy suggesting 'Rache' is German for 'Revenge'. Which was the solution to the riddle in the original Conan Doyle story.

 

[UrbanRats]

As someone who has followed the show since the beginning and posted in the relative threads on GAF every year, I don't think this is news to anyone.
The complaints about the show's writing in these threads were constant.
The fact that the middle episodes of a season were weak for example was almost a meme, and the last two seasons got blasted for the most part, including the extra Christmas special.

I think the show used to be flashy and fun, it balanced well the bollocks spotty scripts, with creative direction and editing, and energetic rhythm and performances.
The scale tipped off on the wrong side in season 3 though, and many(most?) Fans agree, but some of us kept watching a bit out of habit, a bit because there was still the occasional good moment.

I don't think this is breaking any new ground, while I admit not being a big fan of his critiques, I thought his Bloodborne essay was pretty terrible for example, I don't think anyone even within the fandom, aside from maybe the rabidest of fans, would argue that the show was a magnificent pearl of a show, especially after season 2.

 

[zelas]

Wow. I saw the first episode last week and thought the show was pretty boring. All this time I thought it was universally well received. Glad I'm not crazy.

 

[Magwik]

What? Genuinely...what?

I believe he was looking for examples of them being up their own asses and thinking they're geniuses, and not just examples of things from the show you don't like.

You clearly haven't watched any of his Who stuff then, because every major plot from S5-7 is him being up his own ass over how clever he is.

 

[caliph95]

Wow. I saw the first episode last week and thought the show was pretty boring. All this time I thought it was universally well received. Glad I'm not crazy.

The first two seasons are well received with the middle episodes being the weakest. It 3,4 and the special where it we people start to turn on it.

 

[UrbanRats]

If you want a better version of Sherlock that is from the BBC, watch Luther with Idris Elba.

I only watched season 1, but I didn't see anything special in it, aside from Elba's charisma as an actor.

At least Sherlock has a particularly flashy style, if you're into that.
(Though I wouldn't recommend watching past season 2 to anyone, I admit.)

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Sherlock shuts the door on the guy suggesting 'Rache' is German for 'Revenge'. Which was the solution to the riddle in the original Conan Doyle story.

Ahh. Gotcha. I haven't read any, though I want to, so it went over my head. Never really known where to begin.

You clearly haven't watched any of his Who stuff then, because every major plot from S5-7 is him being up his own ass over how clever he is.

Why do people say such silly things they have no actual knowledge of? I've seen this a few times in this thread alone, and it just comes off arrogant. But I'll answer....yes, I've seen all of the new Who. I'm going to need some examples of Moffat outside of the show of him being up his own ass and thinking he is a genius. All you've given so far are examples of things you don't like from the show. It is one thing to say the writing is up it's own ass, but to take it a step futher and say that Moffat himself is...? That seems far without the context of interviews and such.

 

[Dabanton]

The BBC Sherlock run out of steam a while ago imo. It's certainly not as engaging as it was in it's first few seasons.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

The first two seasons are well received with the middle episodes being the weakest. It 3,4 and the special where it we people start to turn on it.

I think it's really weird people highlight those episodes as weak points. The first two seasons revolve around Moriarty and nothing he does makes any sense including killing himself when he always holds all the cards. It took until season 4 to suggest that maybe Eurus used her super intelligence mind control powers on him to make him obsessed over Sherlock. That's the solution to the mystery.

 

[border]

And for a show with such a large following I just expected more because I haven't really heard a good comeback to the argument that Sherlock starts off as a show promising great things and not only never delivers but rapidly descends into an insulting mess

People that enjoy Sherlock do not have two hours to devote to this guy's snide rambling. I am mostly neutral towards Sherlock and I was pretty much done with the video by the time I'd sat through 2 Doctor Who summaries, a Jekyll mini-review, and was being asked to read extended quotations from the Doyle novels.

Don't confuse "lack of interest" with "inability to answer criticism."

 

[zoukka]

Sherlock shuts the door on the guy suggesting 'Rache' is German for 'Revenge'. Which was the solution to the riddle in the original Conan Doyle story.

How is that shitting on the original? I always felt it was just a nod to the old stuff while stating that this is a completely new take on the character.

 

[caliph95]

I think it's really weird people highlight those episodes as weak points. The first two seasons revolve around Moriarty and nothing he does makes any sense including killing himself when he always holds all the cards. It took until season 4 to suggest that maybe Eurus used her super intelligence mind control powers on him to make him obsessed over Sherlock. That's the solution to the mystery.

Honestly screw Eurus and her bullshit mind control powers

 

[Kin5290]

How is that shitting on the original? I always felt it was just a nod to the old stuff while stating that this is a completely new take on the character.

It's not a "nod" to "the old stuff" when the show has Sherlock react to Doyle's solution with such utter contempt.

 

[Doctor Bat]

What? Genuinely...what?

Sherlock closes the door on that guy after he speculates the word 'RACHE' written on the floor of the crime scene is German for 'revenge' - which is the original solution in A Study in Scarlet, the story this episode is based on.

Sherlock literally closes the door on the original book as if its solution is way above all that.

 

[Syder]

People that enjoy Sherlock do not have two hours to devote to this guy's snide rambling. I am mostly neutral towards Sherlock and I was pretty much done with the video by the time I'd sat through 2 Doctor Who summaries, a Jekyll mini-review, and was being asked to read extended quotations from the Doyle novels.

Don't confuse "lack of interest" with "inability to answer criticism."

Some people like long-form analysis.

Just because you don't like the reviewers presentation doesn't mean they aren't making very salient points about a flawed show.

Honestly, you kind of need the preamble on Moffat's career to understand why he's best as a single episode guy rather than a lead writer.

...and ignoring any of that it still doesn't stop you from writing a rebuttal and defending the show.

How is that shitting on the original? I always felt it was just a nod to the old stuff while stating that this is a completely new take on the character.

Another poster said that so you'd have to ask them.

I feel a lot of the 'fresh takes' on the Sherlock stories are inferior to the originals though which isn't all that strange because they're the some of the most beloved works of fiction in history.

 

[Kayhan]

Episode 2 of Season 4 was fantastic.

So the show can still be great.