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Hearthstone |OT9| Our raid wiped in Icecrown Citadel
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Fledgling is one of the reasons innervate needs to go. If you can't even print a strong 3 drop without potentially being broken, how can you print a strong 8 drop without being broken?
And it really isn't that inconsistent. It's actually very high consistency that sometimes highrolls.
Innervate is comboed with Druid buffs vs. these classes, so you can see Mark of Y'shaarj, Mark of the Lotus, or Call of the Wild to push Fledgling out of removal range early. Combined with Druid of the Swarm it can create situations that are impossible for just about anyone to deal with.
I'm guessing you mean Mark of the Wild, and power word death / fireball kills through taunt in either case, as does polymorph / hex. A taunt also delays it an extra turn to kill.
Karsticles
Member
Innervate plus Fledgling seems to hit me as often as the Fiery War Axe. And when it does, either I have the removal on turn two or the game is over. It doesn't feel good. I use the combo myself, and it doesn't feel good either.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Lets not even forget, fledgling is not even a good card. It's a really average card that can snowball. So don't want to hear this "it's not innervate, it's cards surrounding innervate" nonsense. And the whole "oh this removal exists in x, y, z classes" is barely relevant. Just because a counter exists doesn't mean it's balanced. And just because a card is balanced doesn't mean it shouldn't be rotated, especially if it is impacting design space heavily.
I remember Ben Brode's recent AMA he asked Donais what he thinks are the most design space limiting cards. Innervate was a given. And if you think about it, it's much much much worse than preparation. Preparation directly impacts rogue spells only. Innervate directly impacts druid spells, minions, and NEUTRAL minions.
Innervate has been brought up for the past 2 years (ever since they started talking about standard) as being nerf/rotation worthy. They probably just broke the camel's back with the last expansion. No one really wants to wait til the next year to do a rotation, so would it be better to nerf innervate? Probably not. Probably better to rotate it.
edit:
I remember discussions around undertaker, people claiming it was balanced because FWA, backstab, etc. exist. It was bullshit then, as it is bullshit now.
I remember Ben Brode's recent AMA he asked Donais what he thinks are the most design space limiting cards. Innervate was a given. And if you think about it, it's much much much worse than preparation. Preparation directly impacts rogue spells only. Innervate directly impacts druid spells, minions, and NEUTRAL minions.
Innervate has been brought up for the past 2 years (ever since they started talking about standard) as being nerf/rotation worthy. They probably just broke the camel's back with the last expansion. No one really wants to wait til the next year to do a rotation, so would it be better to nerf innervate? Probably not. Probably better to rotate it.
edit:
I remember discussions around undertaker, people claiming it was balanced because FWA, backstab, etc. exist. It was bullshit then, as it is bullshit now.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
These scenarios on both ends are pointless. If fledgling gets answered it's a huge tempo loss. If not it's potentially game ending on its own.
Living Mana is terribad against volcanic potion and a myriad of other clears but it's still a backbreaking card.
Druid is like my second least-played class, and I agree.
People are a week into the expansion and losing to druid, so they want to nerf the class into oblivion.
There's nothing wrong with Innervate.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Actually not losing to druid. Day 2 into the expansion I was facing 80% druid over 40~ games and had a 60-70% winrate. And I am still able to call out the bullshit the class has become, over the past several expansions. It's not like frozen thrones hit and suddenly druid is bullshit, it's been bullshit for a long time now. It's just a big enough bullshit now that I think they should do something about it.
So the solo adventures seem a bit disappointing this week compared with last time.
Lana'thel had a cool idea to overwrite your hero power, but is insanely easy with several decks. All you need to do is put minions on the board each turn and you win? I don't get it.
Prof. Putricide seems tougher until you have at least seen all the phases then it's pretty straightforward.
Sindragosa seems easy to cheese out with big burst damage, so I'm not as sure.
Lana'thel had a cool idea to overwrite your hero power, but is insanely easy with several decks. All you need to do is put minions on the board each turn and you win? I don't get it.
Prof. Putricide seems tougher until you have at least seen all the phases then it's pretty straightforward.
Sindragosa seems easy to cheese out with big burst damage, so I'm not as sure.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I did the first one with control paladin. The spell that transforms minions gave me trouble. Every big drop got hit by hard removal. Eventually got tirion to stick though, and won off that.
The second one I used secret hunter against. Flare did massive work. Death Knight closed out easily cause the 5 mana thing lets you make 9-10 mana minions and play for 5.
Last one I used n'zoth paladin. I just controlled the board til they were about to hit fatigue. I hit the 20 ice block with tirion's weapon and no board. I hit the 10 barrier when they were going to die to fatigue. Ended up being mostly easy.
Yes, you can try like from hand burst on the last one, but it also has a spell that does 3 face damage for every spell you have in hand. You can get screwed if you try control mage, for example.
The second one I used secret hunter against. Flare did massive work. Death Knight closed out easily cause the 5 mana thing lets you make 9-10 mana minions and play for 5.
Last one I used n'zoth paladin. I just controlled the board til they were about to hit fatigue. I hit the 20 ice block with tirion's weapon and no board. I hit the 10 barrier when they were going to die to fatigue. Ended up being mostly easy.
Yes, you can try like from hand burst on the last one, but it also has a spell that does 3 face damage for every spell you have in hand. You can get screwed if you try control mage, for example.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I mean, you never lose much from dusting a gold legend, but the paladin DK is really good. I think it's good even without beardo.
no... why? you have a good DK, also golden, with a class in golden looks amazing, making golden legend tokens. That's not even saying that paladin DK is really good.
Anduin is fun, yes, but sacrificing that golden? imo, is not worth it, don't you have some more dust from other dupes or other bad legs?
That's one of the most powerful DKs, so it's worth keeping. There's a good chance it will see play in the future.
I'm surprised we aren't seeing more Control Paladin, though I suppose Jade Druid kind of runs over it right now.
My value handbuff Paladin does very well against Jade Druid, and Skulking Geist definitely swings the game in my favor. Especially when they burn through removal and I've got, like, two buffed Tirions in my hand thanks to Stonehill Defender. <3
Where's that Kripp flow chart when you need it.
Reynad with a surprisingly level headed video about Innervate.
I mean he is right though, we have kinda reached a tipping point with that card. I have seen pros wanting to nerf that card since before Standard was even a thing. I have made my opinions very clear about that card too.
It's not just Jade Druid. The Priest matchup is bad. More aggressive Paladin decks stomp you. The Token Shaman/Druid and Pirate Warrior are not any better. The deck is probably worse off than it was in Ungoro.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Rogue right now is so weird you can do nothing but pray the opponent doesn't have any removal to clear your limited threats.
You can still go through your deck fast but w/o conceal you can't set up much of any play.
You can still go through your deck fast but w/o conceal you can't set up much of any play.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Except control meta was top of tier 1 for months.
Where is the flow chart of "did kripp say it" "probably false"
Alright, thanks for the feedback guys. I'll hang onto it for now. Pally is one of my least played classes, so I guess I'll start giving it a shot.
I do have the dust for Anduin but I was thinking of crafting Lyra as well, but I'm about 1k short of both. I know I should wait to see what's viable, but I'm a sucker for immediate gratification.
I do have the dust for Anduin but I was thinking of crafting Lyra as well, but I'm about 1k short of both. I know I should wait to see what's viable, but I'm a sucker for immediate gratification.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
You can play Elemental + Prince Keleseth and have all the threats.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I've never actually faced that deck.
Dumpster tier 😵😵😵😵😵
I do always stomp the deck with Priest. Just save MC for Tirion and Ooze for Uther.
Priest is the most fun deck to play right now in my opinion, but keep in mind it's a T2 deck.
Karsticles
Member
Renolock was tier one for months.
Control decks were in tier 1 but in those meta Pirate Warrior was still #1, even going into Ungoro. There has never been a control meta, even the metas in which a control deck was tier 1 it was in response to an over powered aggro/midrange deck.
Past 6 months have been dominated by Pirate Warrior or Aggro Druid and the year before that it was dominated by whatever Shaman deck.
Past 6 months have been dominated by Pirate Warrior or Aggro Druid and the year before that it was dominated by whatever Shaman deck.
The nature of HS's mana system heavily dissuades control strategies.
If one were to ever be THE top tier, it'd likely be the most miserable thing ever because of how OP/facerolly it would need to be to make that happen.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I don't think there has ever been an aggro meta then by that definition. Even in MSG you had reno decks.
The "meta" is defined by the deck that is the best deck because all the other tier 1 decks are created to counter that deck.
Like right now we aren't in a "midrange" meta just because Jade Druid is #1, you still have Murloc Paladin and PW in tier 1.
There has been a full aggro meta before though where all 4 tier 1 decks were aggressive decks. It's not common but it has happened. Like in Karazhan the top decks for a short while were Discard Zoo, Pirate Warrior, Dragon Warrior, Shaman and Secret Hunter.
I would argue the days of Face Hunter before standard count as an aggro meta. Or if you want to get real old the pre-nerf undertaker days as well.
But in general, it seems like the best decks have always been aggressive midrange decks. Especially since Standard became a thing.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Anyone know a dragon priest list with anduin deathknight?
I don't agree with that definition. We've had aggressive metas and we've had control metas. There have been times where control warrior and c'thun warrior were the decks to beat.
I don't agree with that definition. We've had aggressive metas and we've had control metas. There have been times where control warrior and c'thun warrior were the decks to beat.
CW and Cthun Warrior were never the best decks. They would still get rolled over by Shaman or Dragon Warrior.
Closest to a control meta was when we had Grim Patron, Handlock, CW and Combo Druid. It wasn't a control meta because the meta was defined by a combo deck but aggro decks were at their lowest point here.
Closest to a control meta was when we had Grim Patron, Handlock, CW and Combo Druid. It wasn't a control meta because the meta was defined by a combo deck but aggro decks were at their lowest point here.
I don't have a full list handy, but the dragon package is usually:
Ysera replaces Lich King
Primordial Drake replaces Obsidian Statue
Netherspite Historian for more dragons to find
Bone Drake (usually a 1 of or not at all)
Colbalt Scalebane (a 1 of since you really only want him with another minion, like DrakOP)
Drak OP
Twilight Drake
Generally just cut any minion that seems like a tech choice (ie Glimmeroot, Elise, Geist, Spirit Lash). If you still want to run highlander you can, but it's dicey with the low numbers of dragons. The deck works much better with 2x of the key ones (DrakOP, Netherspite Historian, Twilight Drake).
That's the list pretty much, you gotta be careful with AnduinDK as he'll axe your own guys if they're 5+ so a lot of the bigger dragons get hit as well.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Did everyone beat the new SP wing?
I actually got curious and started looking at old tier lists and meta snapshots. I think it's a good time to do an analysis of previous metas starting with the first rotation. I want to see at which point the meta was at its slowest so we can have that as a benchmark. Going to post findings sometime tonight.
I'm stuck at Sindragosa because my Warrior deck is terrible. Maybe I should try...I dunno. I'm having a tough time trading with the minions while also keeping the pressure up.
Play a C'Thun deck and instakill at 21/22.
I did.
1st boss with jade druid
2nd boss with raza anduin
3rd boss with silence priest
Try silence priest
I hate that deck since un'goro. There's nothing you can do cuz they keep freezing your board and suddenly someday I'll be just like you
That's a cool idea, I look forward to it. Too bad vSS is relatively new on the scene.
pirateluigi
Member
1st boss murloc paladin
2nd boss discover mage
3rd boss pirate warrior
This wing didn't feel nearly as interesting as the first wing.
Thanks, but I've been playing for a month and barely own any cards. So I just played a secret-filled hunter deck instead that could keep up with the minions on the board and just got in with the bow and hero power.
The pack I won finally had my second legendary from the set. (I haven't bought any packs with real money). I think this was like pack 42 and the other legendary I got is the 3 mana prince, so I was pretty frustrated until now.
I have Tirion and Uther now, but I'm probably a shitload of dust away from a Paladin deck because those decks are expensive as hell dust wise.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Trump trying out handbuff paladin.
Does seem potentially good in this Druid/Priest meta, as long as there aren't enough Pirate Warriors out there. Always nice to get out those big minion turns before Jade Druid can.
Does seem potentially good in this Druid/Priest meta, as long as there aren't enough Pirate Warriors out there. Always nice to get out those big minion turns before Jade Druid can.
slightconfuse
Banned
1st boss: evolve shaman
2nd boss: priest
3rd boss: freeze mage
2nd boss: priest
3rd boss: freeze mage
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
GvG after the undertaker nerf was a midrange meta of Handlock/Force Roar Druid/Midrange Paladin when face hunter, mech mage, and zoo were popular but not that great.
Then they printed Quick Shot, followed by Mysterious Challenger, followed by Tunnel Trogg/Totem Golem, followed by Small-Time Buccaneer and Patches, and finally quest rogue.
Unfortunately Patches is still screwing things up today, and i guess instead of nerfing that, they give Druid specifically the aggro answer that kills all agro of any type, patches or not. It's a lot better than most of hearthstone history, but it's still a dumb way to go about it.
The best part about using Freeze Mage is that, for some reason, using Alex to get Sin's HP down to 15 doesn't trigger her hero power. So then it's just a matter of attacking with Alex and Pyroblasting on turn 10.
I have a win 5 with warrior that I'm going to have to do with fucking pirate warrior because blizzard fucking hates slow warrior.
Can't stop jerking off over how much they can over-buff priest but God forbid someone wants to take advantage of warriors fucking useless hero power.
Can't stop jerking off over how much they can over-buff priest but God forbid someone wants to take advantage of warriors fucking useless hero power.