Mobius and pet octopus
Member
That was not the discussion.
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Hearthstone |OT9| Our raid wiped in Icecrown Citadel
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
That was not the discussion.
I know it wasn't, I just had to insert my opinion on the Hunter class overall.
I do think Midrange is a bad definer for the deck. It's more curve/tempo based, the control/draw/value options are very limited in scope. Hunter can never dream of having tempo plays like Rogue so they will never really have a tempo deck, this is probably the closest they can make a tempo deck without it being full on aggro. Alley Cat into Razormaw is among the highest tempo plays Hunters can make, that or some small minion into Houndmaster.
If Hunter could cheat/tempo out beasts then they would abuse that in a heart beat.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
True, you don't like that hunter is a limited design class. But I don't think that is necessarily a terrible thing tbh. They don't want every class doing too much as each class competes with each other when they do similar things, and only the class that does it best sees any play. We had that type of homogenization in gvg mostly. They decidedly moved away from that, and hunter might end up never being a control/value class, the same way rogues might never get heals or blade flurry power level AOEs. It's not a bad thing that hunter exists as it is. There are 8 other classes to do what you can't with hunter.
edit:
Maybe in a future set we see control hunter, I am not counting anything happening tbh
What's so bad about that tho? Why does it make it a shitty design?
hunter is aggro/midrange like Druid rogue and shaman.
Warrior is midrange/control, like paladin.
Priest is all control.
Mage and warlock are all over the place.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
the issue is hunter got nothing else, ever.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
I didn't know Rogues could complete their Quest on turn 3 but apparently they can.
Results pending
ok I pirate warriored him to death on turn 6, he played the Quest on turn 5 but didn't prep it, opponent had like 4 things on the board and decided to trade maybe he should have hit my face
Results pending
ok I pirate warriored him to death on turn 6, he played the Quest on turn 5 but didn't prep it, opponent had like 4 things on the board and decided to trade maybe he should have hit my face
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
You can do it as early as turn 2 but w/o prep or coin there's no real point to do so before turn 5
I finished mine on turn 3 once, but I still lost against burn mage lol
The deck was fun at its best, but not my kinda deck. No regret crafting it tho.
It's funny, 5 months ago Rogue was one of the classes I played the least, but now It's the closest one to golden portrait and has the most legendaries of any classes.
I <3 Miracle
I'm assuming servers just went down? I got disconnected during ranked search after the button stopped me from cancelling, and neither PC nor Android can reconnect, so I can't play at all.
Also, I want to make sure I'm not missing something. If you play a golakka crawler and you have a pirate, you HAVE to eat the pirate or it's impossible to play. Correct?
However, vilespine slayer has a combo power to destroy "a minion". And yet a rogue just played it, with another minion on their field, without destroying it. Are combo powers option, or is that combo power secretly enemy only?
Also, I want to make sure I'm not missing something. If you play a golakka crawler and you have a pirate, you HAVE to eat the pirate or it's impossible to play. Correct?
However, vilespine slayer has a combo power to destroy "a minion". And yet a rogue just played it, with another minion on their field, without destroying it. Are combo powers option, or is that combo power secretly enemy only?
BananasWithGuns
Member
And why don't these quests see play? Because aggro and other quests decks are overpowered.
Just the existence of quest Rogue and quest Warrior is enough to make sure control decks never see play.
Tier 2 and tier 3 deck is overpowered?
BananasWithGuns
Member
Does it completely invalidate an entire archetype of decks? Then yes, it is.
There's a huge difference between "this deck is good against control" and "this deck invalidates control."
Karsticles
Member
A deck doesn't have to be overpowered to be imbalanced.
That's not true at all.
Warrior has had combo decks, midrange/tempo decks, control decks and aggro decks. Warrior is among the most versatile classes in the game.
Priest has various different styles of play and can play combo variations, minion curve decks like everyone and classic control decks. The only thing they can't really play is aggro and that's probably ok although Blizzard certainly tried to do that at one point.
Shaman I have criticized a ton in the past but not because of versatility (just the design of their hero power)... in fact they used to be too versatile. Wild Shaman can play Control very well now, Midrange Shaman has always been a thing, Aggro Shaman has been a thing and even fringe combo Shaman has been a thing (Malygos Shaman). They can play tribal stuff too and even their Quest is playable.
Druid is actually more interesting than people give it credit for. They can play hyper aggressive with Token Druid, they have always played Midrange and Ramp and not too long ago they were playing Combo decks with Malygos, Giants, Aviana/Kun etc. Druid also has a unique fatigue/mill style that few other classes can pull off.
Rogue has always been one of the more interesting classes with the ability to play aggressive, tempo and combo. They have a working Quest. Rogue has the capacity to play for huge value and can even play fatigue. In Wild they can finally stand up against Control decks in the late game. So they have had the tools.
Hunter... it doesn't the mode or what time you are in. They play the same exact boring decks. It's either pointing stuff to face or playing stuff on curve. We have had very mild deviations from these kind of decks, one of which was the Secret Hunter in Karazhan but that's hardly an interesting deck. It was an all in nuts tempo deck that you just vomited your hand on the board and was the closest thing Hunter had to a tempo deck. That obviously didn't last long and Hunter was back to doing Hunter stuff.
There is nothing interesting about the Hunter class. They don't have the tools to do something interesting. Everything about them has been designed to play in a very linear fashion. It's not even comparable to the other classes.
One can say that this is an OK thing to have. That classes should be defined into a very specific role. Hunter should be the "play beasts on curve and attack face" class of the game. Warriors should be the weapon, taunt and armor class. Mage should be spell focused etc. But unlike Hunter, other classes have more interesting tweaks to their defined archetype. Right now there's nothing interesting you can do with Beasts or playing cards on curve or using Hunter's hero power.
Nah some of these Quests are legit awful though. Even if aggro was toned down they wouldn't see play.
SonicXtreme
Member
i threw tar creeper in wild renolock day expansion came out. usually ends up being a 6 damage against aggro and saves face which is perfect for the reno decks, i think i put it in priest too, it's just too good against the aggro meta and is ok otherwise. any tool that slow down pirate from killing u by turn 5 is aright and that fits the bill well. i get most pissed when i have reno but get chewed down so fast he doesn't even matter. that's also why i run double ice block in reno kaz mage now, with that new secret grabbing card and mad sci it's not too hard to grab one to singleton the deck, and it's just way too important not to take the risk
2 mana 2/2 discover a 1 drop guy is good too tho, i like him cos use brann anyway and 2 cards great, but early game usually gives something, good utility to help the onslaught as well, hard sometimes when u get the late drops early and they're running wild
If Hearthstone has a fundamental issue, it's the usage of the WoW classes as their replacement for a "color"-type of system. Anytime you print a class card, Blizzard has to ask themselves if the card is thematic to the class.
In WoW, you don't necessary care if the classes are "balanced" since PvP is not the primary focus. You just have to consider different playstyles and make each class worth playing. But in Hearthstone, balance is a much bigger issue. This conflict between WoW and Hearthstone means that some classes in Hearthstone have a much wider design space than other classes.
For example, in WoW, Shamans could basically do everything. They had weapons. They had healing. They had damage spells. This gives the Shaman class in Hearthstone a HUGE design space. You can have a Shaman deck do basically anything and everything all at once. Except gain armor, I guess?
Take Rogue as a counterexample. In WoW, Rogues were a class that snuck up behind you, waited for an opportunity, then busted in your head in with a flurry of attacks and killed you dead instantly. They were squishy as fuck, though. This is represented well with the Aggro and Miracle archetypes of Rogue. But what else can they do? Rogues aren't really known for healing, survivability, or taking down swarms of enemies all at once. So they aren't supposed to get strong heals to counter burn or strong AOE to counter large numbers of minions. So Control Rogue just can't exist. Rogue is locked in to fast or "tricky" strategies. That's a much smaller and much harder design space. You keep seeing Blizzard try to use the "thief" aspect of the class recently so that their brains don't have to work so hard, but getting random cards from your opponent's class is not necessarily compelling design for a card game.
To Dahbomb's point, Hunter kind of falls into this trap because Hunters in WoW are all about safe, consistent damage. You toss out your beast friend in front you, then plink away with your bow or gun. If the enemy gets too close, lay a trap. To the extent that WoW hunters could "control", it was mostly about the traps and evading the damage in the first place. Hunters relied on their beasts and their traps to get out of harms way. So I dunno, if you want a Control Hunter, maybe what you have to ask for is better taunt beasts? Or maybe print some better secret cards, like a Hunter version of Hydrologist? Hunters will never have ways to counter burn (they don't heal or have strong armor), which makes any kind of anti-aggro or control deck sketchy, because most control decks need ways to counter both minions and burn, not one or the other. So, Aggro and Midrange with beasts it is.
In WoW, you don't necessary care if the classes are "balanced" since PvP is not the primary focus. You just have to consider different playstyles and make each class worth playing. But in Hearthstone, balance is a much bigger issue. This conflict between WoW and Hearthstone means that some classes in Hearthstone have a much wider design space than other classes.
For example, in WoW, Shamans could basically do everything. They had weapons. They had healing. They had damage spells. This gives the Shaman class in Hearthstone a HUGE design space. You can have a Shaman deck do basically anything and everything all at once. Except gain armor, I guess?
Take Rogue as a counterexample. In WoW, Rogues were a class that snuck up behind you, waited for an opportunity, then busted in your head in with a flurry of attacks and killed you dead instantly. They were squishy as fuck, though. This is represented well with the Aggro and Miracle archetypes of Rogue. But what else can they do? Rogues aren't really known for healing, survivability, or taking down swarms of enemies all at once. So they aren't supposed to get strong heals to counter burn or strong AOE to counter large numbers of minions. So Control Rogue just can't exist. Rogue is locked in to fast or "tricky" strategies. That's a much smaller and much harder design space. You keep seeing Blizzard try to use the "thief" aspect of the class recently so that their brains don't have to work so hard, but getting random cards from your opponent's class is not necessarily compelling design for a card game.
To Dahbomb's point, Hunter kind of falls into this trap because Hunters in WoW are all about safe, consistent damage. You toss out your beast friend in front you, then plink away with your bow or gun. If the enemy gets too close, lay a trap. To the extent that WoW hunters could "control", it was mostly about the traps and evading the damage in the first place. Hunters relied on their beasts and their traps to get out of harms way. So I dunno, if you want a Control Hunter, maybe what you have to ask for is better taunt beasts? Or maybe print some better secret cards, like a Hunter version of Hydrologist? Hunters will never have ways to counter burn (they don't heal or have strong armor), which makes any kind of anti-aggro or control deck sketchy, because most control decks need ways to counter both minions and burn, not one or the other. So, Aggro and Midrange with beasts it is.
SonicXtreme
Member
first game of the night, rogue hits gang up on patches and drops ships cannon and pirate turn 3, GG
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
SonicXtreme
Member
welcome to wild
its better cause you dont even bat an eye when that dumb shit happens, since basically every deck thrives on winning on max bullshit, its the best
Why would you ever want every class to be able to do everything?
This is not only Hearthstone. In most CCG's and LCG's every class has a very distinct feel, which I personally find more interesting
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Sounds like a game I don't want to play
It's not about every class being able to do everything. I and most people here are perfectly fine with something like Priest not being a good aggro class.
What we are not fine with is how binary Hunter is as a class. It's not interesting, classes should have some versatility or at least something cool/unique/interesting about them. No one likes on rails deck building or class decks.
What's even unique about Hunter? They have beast synergy? Druid has that too. They have traps? Mage and Paladin has that. They have weapons? Other classes have weapons. This is why if Hunter isn't among the best aggro or curve deck it becomes crap because it can't bring something interesting to the table in the meta.
My freeze mage got nourish from mana bind, ramped myself and played alex next turn.
Few turns later after 2 earthen scales and 2 feral rage, I made him down to 1 and he popped my block and I was down to 2. He played yogg, and yogg made him draw when he only had 1 card and left and no jade idol.
Jade druid, lost to freeze mage, and fatigue. What a weird day.
Few turns later after 2 earthen scales and 2 feral rage, I made him down to 1 and he popped my block and I was down to 2. He played yogg, and yogg made him draw when he only had 1 card and left and no jade idol.
Jade druid, lost to freeze mage, and fatigue. What a weird day.
Justicar dealing 3 damage as an upgraded hero power still bug me.
Hunter also has got some absolutely downright trash cards in msog and kharazan. Hunter and rogue in wild are just so bad.
Any minion that has a targetable ability cannot be played without casting that ability, with the caveat that a combo ability that isn't combo'd (or any conditional ability whose condition isn't met) or an ability that doesn't have valid targets is ignored by the game so the minion can be played as is.
That Rogue played the Slayer first so the combo wasn't active.
I actually don't think every class has to do everything. I'm not necessarily calling for Hunter to have lifegain or anything like that. The concern is more that the design space for the classes aren't balanced. The class archetypes and how they play were defined by factors outside of Hearthstone itself. It's kind of an awkward limitation. Nothing they can do about it now.
Hunter specifically... I think Dahbomb's point and maybe something I agree with is that the class is too straightforward. Play beasts aggressively. They don't have a good class mechanic aside from beast synergy and maybe traps? I mean, I would be fine with some kind of hydrologist-type card for Hunter. Discovering secrets is a mechanic that needs to return. Would make the class more interesting to play at least.
SonicXtreme
Member
Anybody wanna swap challenge a friends?
SonicXtreme
Member
Hunters unique identity is getting garbage beats off of ram wrangler/webspinner/jeweled macaw/infest etc rng card draw mechanics then getting infuriated at the fact that cards like clutchmother zavas and the lightning elemental thing are beasts for absolutely no reason
RumblingRosco
Member
Managed to break into rank five by removing Mountain Giant for Corrupting Mist - helps with early game more but also has been surprisingly useful mid or late game... but holy shit I forgot all about Tar Creeper. I'll find space for him. Thanks!
Karsticles
Member
It depends on the matchup, right? I would take Sulfuras over Jaraxxus any day against Freeze Mage.
Was having a blast with my Elemental Shaman this morning, winning games against Silence Priests, Aggro Druids, Midrange Hunters... and then I played 3 games in a row against Quest Rogue and they all completed their quests before turn 6, I didn't stand a chance and had no say in those games at all.
One Quest Rogue was even running Violet Teacher, and managed to Mimic Pod a Preparation... in the turn he played his Quest he had 5 tokens on the board plus his Violet Teacher at 5/5...
Looks like I'll have to jump on the bandwagon if I want to climb past Rank 14. I hope they do something with that Quest.
One Quest Rogue was even running Violet Teacher, and managed to Mimic Pod a Preparation... in the turn he played his Quest he had 5 tokens on the board plus his Violet Teacher at 5/5...
Looks like I'll have to jump on the bandwagon if I want to climb past Rank 14. I hope they do something with that Quest.
SonicXtreme
Member
i don't play rogue at all, i haven't had much trouble with the quest but from a player's perspective, is it better to clear their flame guys or just go face? i've beaten them with both tactics but i'm not sure which is the correct play. eliminating the board can prevent them bouncing stuff, but it's slowing down killing them. but some of those assholes even run shit like defender of argus so leaving things on the board always feels sketchy.
had hex, devolve and volcano, still lost to silence priest, feelsbadman
couldn't catch a break, it kept drawing and refilling. deck is strong, can't control that shit. I'd say it's stronger than miracle rogue, this deck actually clears and outraces aggro with ease. I want to play it, seems fun.
Shaman is strong on paper but you're really behind in card draw from everyone else. Everyone can generate cards and value in some way but shaman is very slow. Spirit Echo was a waste of 800 dust for me, don't craft that thing. It's so hard to use. Stonehill defender is decent in shaman but that's not enough. I guess have to play acolyte and combo with volcano.
I'm considering the 1 mana dicover overload card but seems very sketchy. There are a lot of trash with overload unfortunately.
couldn't catch a break, it kept drawing and refilling. deck is strong, can't control that shit. I'd say it's stronger than miracle rogue, this deck actually clears and outraces aggro with ease. I want to play it, seems fun.
Shaman is strong on paper but you're really behind in card draw from everyone else. Everyone can generate cards and value in some way but shaman is very slow. Spirit Echo was a waste of 800 dust for me, don't craft that thing. It's so hard to use. Stonehill defender is decent in shaman but that's not enough. I guess have to play acolyte and combo with volcano.
I'm considering the 1 mana dicover overload card but seems very sketchy. There are a lot of trash with overload unfortunately.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Depends on where they are with their quest and how quickly you can kill them.
Most of the minions left on the board early are the bouncers (brewmaster, ferryman, etc.) with the odd swashburgler or patches. It's tough to actually interrupt them completing the quests since they're usually smart enough to only play particular minions (novice engineer, etc.) when they have their bounce cards in hand. This is why most of my game just feel like I'm sitting back and watching them win without any control. My Elemental Shaman deck is fairly taunt heavy so I suppose I could tech it to be more aggressive, in hopes I can burn him down before he get's his quest off and a board built up.
bangbang i'm a timpani
Banned
so i've built a different secret mage than whats on the ladder now, curious what you all think. Comparing vs. the Syntrax one: http://www.vicioussyndicate.com/deck-library/mage-decks/secret-mage/
-2 Medivh's Valet
-2 Primordial Glyph
-2 Apprentice
-2 Entity
-2 Fireland's
+2 Coldlight Oracle
+2 Frost Nova
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Ice Block
+1 Potion of Poly
+1 Spellbend
+2 Ethereal
So the 4 I highlighted are really the big differences vs. ladder. I dont know if its better but I have more card draw and board control with coldlight/nova and I think its fun. Curve is like 13 cards at 3 mana lol so thats a bit of a design flaw.
I used to love the aggro freeze mage decks that were around last year, and began to really appreciate Coldlight/Nova combos. Frost Nova really allows board control and I cannot recommend it enough, I learned to love it with aggro freeze mage. The coldlights are specifically in b/c they are more active (vs. coldlight for example) and I felt I was running out of steam.
Thats the other thing too....Pyroblast has gotten me out of a lot of binds. I've sealed games out with it a ton and I wouldn't ditch it for 2x firelands.
Ice block has helped my in the mirror some and I've liked it a lot. Its the best secret for Ethereal Peddler's since its up for awhile. Peddler's though I totally think is flexible, I just like the threats and since I've got the Novas I want to just ignore the board and push face damage anyway.
-2 Medivh's Valet
-2 Primordial Glyph
-2 Apprentice
-2 Entity
-2 Fireland's
+2 Coldlight Oracle
+2 Frost Nova
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Ice Block
+1 Potion of Poly
+1 Spellbend
+2 Ethereal
So the 4 I highlighted are really the big differences vs. ladder. I dont know if its better but I have more card draw and board control with coldlight/nova and I think its fun. Curve is like 13 cards at 3 mana lol so thats a bit of a design flaw.
I used to love the aggro freeze mage decks that were around last year, and began to really appreciate Coldlight/Nova combos. Frost Nova really allows board control and I cannot recommend it enough, I learned to love it with aggro freeze mage. The coldlights are specifically in b/c they are more active (vs. coldlight for example) and I felt I was running out of steam.
Thats the other thing too....Pyroblast has gotten me out of a lot of binds. I've sealed games out with it a ton and I wouldn't ditch it for 2x firelands.
Ice block has helped my in the mirror some and I've liked it a lot. Its the best secret for Ethereal Peddler's since its up for awhile. Peddler's though I totally think is flexible, I just like the threats and since I've got the Novas I want to just ignore the board and push face damage anyway.
SonicXtreme
Member
yeah that's where it always feels like a crapshoot. i don't think it's OP it just doesn't feel like there's a smart way to attack it. like dude before said 'depends where they are in the quest', but they can go from 1 to 4 in a turn easily between preps coins and such. but sometimes their hand is clogged with two fan of knives or something. i don't have a problem with it it just doesn't feel like there's a right way to attack it lol. i wish one streamer would make one tight list of it overwhelmingly popular lol, like i said before some games sunfury or something will show up and it's just like whelp, didn't expect that, ballgame
had hex, devolve and volcano, still lost to silence priest, feelsbadman
couldn't catch a break, it kept drawing and refilling. deck is strong, can't control that shit. I'd say it's stronger than miracle rogue, this deck actually clears and outraces aggro with ease. I want to play it, seems fun.
Shaman is strong on paper but you're really behind in card draw from everyone else. Everyone can generate cards and value in some way but shaman is very slow. Spirit Echo was a waste of 800 dust for me, don't craft that thing. It's so hard to use. Stonehill defender is decent in shaman but that's not enough. I guess have to play acolyte and combo with volcano.
I'm considering the 1 mana dicover overload card but seems very sketchy. There are a lot of trash with overload unfortunately.
Spirit echo is great. I use one copy though. Two seems too greedy. Crafted two blazecallers but seem most lists have cut them. Still use one though mostly because of the dust i spend on them.
had hex, devolve and volcano, still lost to silence priest, feelsbadman
couldn't catch a break, it kept drawing and refilling. deck is strong, can't control that shit. I'd say it's stronger than miracle rogue, this deck actually clears and outraces aggro with ease. I want to play it, seems fun.
Shaman is strong on paper but you're really behind in card draw from everyone else. Everyone can generate cards and value in some way but shaman is very slow. Spirit Echo was a waste of 800 dust for me, don't craft that thing. It's so hard to use. Stonehill defender is decent in shaman but that's not enough. I guess have to play acolyte and combo with volcano.
I'm considering the 1 mana dicover overload card but seems very sketchy. There are a lot of trash with overload unfortunately.
Spirit Echo works for me more than it doesn't. The amount of low cost minions with useful battlecries makes it really worth considering, imo.
Also Shaman is so high on value it's silly, the problem I find with it is that there's no real win condition beyond out value, and lots of other decks can do value too...
If it comes out on curve, it's insanely good though. Especially if you leapfrog the 6, 7, 8 late game elementals.
It doesn't feel particularity strong currently, but it's solid enough.
RumblingRosco
Member
I think you're asking Ladekabel, but I'll answer anyway. I used to run about 3-5 arenas a week when it was wild format, but that has gone down to about 1 or 2 a week with the switch to standard. It's just boring now with so few cards.
Most competent players won't leave the stuff they are trying to bounce on the board. Just their trash like Ferryman and Brewmasters. If they leave something worth bouncing like a Swashburgler or Novice Engineer, you should kill it. Otherwise, only go full HAM on clearing if you think they can play their quest on the next turn.
About 3-5 times a week. Depends on how I perform and if I'm in the mood.