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[SMD]

I don't think that's true. Emulators are legal, makign money off of emulator work is NOT illegal. Now is it actionable in terms of a lawsuit? I dont think that's going to work well. It would be a slam dunk if they were distributing games, but they aren't.

If anything this should show, woudl show, any savvy company, that there is a market for their games outside their hardware ecosystem that is ripe for exploring.

If Nintendo came out wih their own software store on PC with reasonable prices (don't try to sell me the original zelda for $60), I know I and a LOT of PC gamers would be spending hundreds of dollars on their store.

Give me a Zelda collection + BOTW running at unlocked resolutions (where possible, obviously probably not earlier zeldas) and I'd spend $150 on that, no problem.

Emulators, given that Nintendo would never do that, are the enxt best thing, and they at least allow Nintendo to see some of my money. I have zero interest in a Switch, Would not ever pick one up. And the WiiU experience would be a poor one. Once CEMU has it runnig well they'll be seeing my $60 though.

"any savvy company" I hate defending corporate strategy but how is making your games available on a platform other than your own anything other than a terrible move?
How many Switch consoles would be sold if a PC version was released? Not to mention displaying your own platform in an unflattering light.

The few hundred thousand sales gained would be comically not worth it.

 

[MGrant]

Ripping my Wii files for Dolphin wasn't too bad when I figured it out. Is doing the same kind of dump from a Wii U similar? Might try this after I finish BotW the first time.

 

[IrishNinja]

In the relatively near future Cemu will unequivocally be the best way to play BotW. It's a question of when, not if. You can be salty about it or you can just accept it.

in the present, you can enjoy the game without hiccups, and even better, on the go - where it plays & looks fantastic

you can project as much as you like, or settle for lesser options

The courts have already ruled on this issue. Emulators aren't illegal, and selling emulators isn't illegal. Nintendo can't do a thing about it.

i'm a fan of emulation & options, but you're kidding yourself if you believe either of those statements to be true

 

[primasaurus]

No browser for you Switch, Nintendo have had enough

 

[10k]

Does that mean it could achieve 30 fps on Switch as well with future updates?

I would assume so. I hope anyways. Any framerate drops I'm willing to give the benefit if the doubt cause of it being a launch title and ported from the shitty PowerPC architecture to ARM. I hope it's optimized by the end of the month.

 

[BigTnaples]

Sucks about 60fps, but I'm fine with 30.



As long as I can run in in 4K 30, with solid AF, Im golden. Anything on top of that? Like better LoD? Would be amazing.



Going to wait until this is fully playable, with a reasonably small amount of glitches, then jump in. Should be an amazing way to experience Breath of the Wild for the first time.

 

[Rats Off To Ya]

i'm a fan of emulation & options, but you're kidding yourself if you believe either of those statements to be true

Bleem.

To your other point, I would consider bad image quality and framerate drops to be major hiccups. As is having to play a massive open world game on a tiny screen.

 

[ShdwDrake]

Talking about preservation, are there PS4 and Xbox One emulators being worked on as much as CEMU/Dolphin/etc right now?

They are but its probably alot easier to emulate the Wii U than the PS4 or Xbox One (power).

The Switch will probably get an emulator before the PS4 or Xbox One.

 

[Pacotez]

Title is kinda misleading, the game can boot ingame now, but it's not playable, I know they say it in the article, but going from, "instantly emulated" to "it's booting and it will take a few months to run well" is a large stretch. Also the video they posted seems fake.

It's playable on the next build

 

[ShdwDrake]

in the present, you can enjoy the game without hiccups, and even better, on the go - where it plays & looks fantastic

you can project as much as you like, or settle for lesser options



i'm a fan of emulation & options, but you're kidding yourself if you believe either of those statements to be true

Emulation is completely legal in the USA at least.

 

[z0m3le]

Probably not, since the Switch hardware isn't on the same level as mid- to high-end PC's needed for 30fps emulation.

That, and the fact the hardware architecture of the Switch wasn't what BotW's engine was initially designed for, probably.

The switch is multiple times more powerful than wii u, 30fps locked is possible given a performance patch. Zelda was ported within a year to switch.

 

[Permanently A]

All I'm saying is don't be surprised if Nintendo tries and they're going to try for a reason you just stated.



Don't think Nintendo's not going to fight a piece of free software that can potentially play their game better than the $300 gaming console they're trying to sell. It's the reason they've been taking down fan games as well.

What do you mean? Dolphin and other such emulators have been around for a while.

 

[Mechazawa]

If Nintendo didn't do anything when stuff like Xenoblade and Skyward Sword were dropping for Wii and faaaaar more playable on their respective emulators, they're not going to suddenly do anything because there's a version of BOTW out there where Lank runs out into a cliff with his legs clipping through the ground 5 minutes into the intro.

 

[IrishNinja]

Bleem.

To your other point, I would consider bad image quality and framerate drops to be major hiccups. As is having to play a massive open world game on a tiny screen.

are you familiar with how things went for Bleem...?
i don't really see framerate drops on the switch version much, and you don't "have" to play on the rather nice portable screen, it's just an option. which is why it's the definitive version. you should really just make peace with this.

Emulation is completely legal in the USA at least.

i've heard that forever, but i believe we've also seen sites hosting ROMs/etc prop themselves up with notions like "it's okay to have a digital copy of something you own", "it's okay if you delete it after (x) hours" etc and from a legal standpoint, a lot of it's been murky at best.

i really don't mean to crap on emulation - i think ethics are more important than law, and ethically there's not a thing wrong with it - i just think the defense force for it here has to sway a bit too hard in the other direction.

like, we've made great strides in recent years with FPGA's and such, but BSNES aside, there's always compromises. i love scenes that work to minimize them, but original hardware is always gonna be best for the most authentic experience - i've no idea where you'd have to be coming from to find that statement controversial, but it clearly rustles this Rats guy's jimmies.

 

[Mechazawa]

i don't really see framerate drops on the switch version much

If only we could all be this beautifully blind.

 

[IrishNinja]

If only we could all be this beautifully blind.

i admittedly play while drinking heavily, yes
seriously though, i just beat Last Guardian a few weeks back so i'm pretty numb to anything that's not atrocious

 

[Chinbo37]

I'm playing on my wii u. Ina couple years when I want to do my second playthrough I will give it a go on CEMU

 

[JohnSpartanLee]

30fps cap gives me hope my 3GHz i5 with GTX660 will be able to run this "fullspeed".

 

[Widge]

I mean I suppose there is the bit which you cannot emulate at all right now, which is where you stick the game in your bag and can quickly whip it out and play standing up on a train.

Nintendo probably see that distinct advantage of their hardware over PC and don't see it as a threat yet. The Switch is very much a competitive platform for PC owners over the PS4 and certainly the XB1. I don't think they'd look too kindly on people being able to bypass buying their hardware to play their games.

This scrutiny has only really arisen because BOTW is a cross platform game and emulation has generally operated behind the generation curve in recent times. I feel that's how it should be. If the hardware exists on the shelves to buy along with the games, buy it, don't start fighting semantics because you want to bypass the platform and have it on PC. There is a weird mentality that everything should be available on PC because it is the correct and proper place for all items game related at the top of the tree.

 

[Durante]

Is every emulation thread here full of people screaming about piracy?

It used to be bannable. I don't know why that changed.

i love scenes that work to minimize them, but original hardware is always gonna be best for the most authentic experience

I guess this is true in the same way that playing Dark Souls 1 at 1024x720 and with drops to 15 FPS is the "most authentic" experience. I don't see the point in seeking out that type of "authenticity" though.

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

I mean I suppose there is the bit which you cannot emulate at all right now, which is where you stick the game in your bag and can quickly whip it out and play standing up on a train.

Nintendo probably see that distinct advantage of their hardware over PC and don't see it as a threat yet. The Switch is very much a competitive platform for PC owners over the PS4 and certainly the XB1. I don't think they'd look too kindly on people being able to bypass buying their hardware to play their games.

This scrutiny has only really arisen because BOTW is a cross platform game and emulation has generally operated behind the generation curve in recent times. I feel that's how it should be. If the hardware exists on the shelves to buy along with the games, buy it, don't start fighting semantics because you want to bypass the platform and have it on PC. There is a weird mentality that everything should be available on PC because it is the correct and proper place for all items game related at the top of the tree.

You can stream CEMU games to an Nvidia Shield.

 

[Widge]

but original hardware is always gonna be best for the most authentic experience

There is this too. I tested out PPSSPP a while back, SNES emulator and there is something to be said about playing games portably on the black slab or not having to buy a new controller for my PC to have the A-B buttons the right way round to match the on screen prompts in Link To The Past.

There's just something nicer about using the proper machine to do things you know? PC is a bit of a band aid in that respect.

 

[KratosEnergyDrink]

Emulation is okay, for 20 year old games... not for new games. Hopefully the developer of Cemu get sued sometime.

 

[BigTnaples]

Emulation is okay, for 20 year old games... not for new games. Hopefully the developer of Cemu get sued sometime.

What in the actual fuck is this post?

 

[IrishNinja]

I guess this is true in the same way that playing Dark Souls 1 at 1024x720 and with drops to 15 FPS is the "most authentic" experience. I don't see the point in seeking out that type of "authenticity" though.

admittedly, if more ports/emulated efforts saw the kind of effort & results you saw, this wouldn't be as strong an argument, haha

Emulation is okay, for 20 year old games... not for new games. Hopefully the developer of Cemu get sued sometime.

this post i don't even know what to do with
there's nothing wrong with emulating current gen stuff, owning a copy covers whatever ethics you're looking for here.

i wouldn't wish a lawsuit on most anyone, and while we're at it, play 20 year old games on original hardware too.

There is a weird mentality that everything should be available on PC because it is the correct and proper place for all items game related at the top of the tree.

this is absolutely true, and the "mater race" crowd can be silly on here with that sometimes...but if you think it's exclusive to PC gaming, check out any major surprise exclusive thread on here, the whining from the console crowd is embarrassing. bayonetta 2 stands out in my mind here.

 

[Durante]

admittedly, if more ports/emulated efforts saw the kind of effort & results you saw, this wouldn't be as strong an argument, haha

I'd argue that many do. For example, at this point almost every single game runs great at significantly higher resolution and IQ on Dolphin (and some have framerate hacks).

 

[Schopenhauerian]

This scrutiny has only really arisen because BOTW is a cross platform game and emulation has generally operated behind the generation curve in recent times. I feel that's how it should be. If the hardware exists on the shelves to buy along with the games, buy it, don't start fighting semantics because you want to bypass the platform and have it on PC. There is a weird mentality that everything should be available on PC because it is the correct and proper place for all items game related at the top of the tree.

...there's nothing wrong with emulating current gen stuff, owning a copy covers whatever ethics you're looking for here...

The ethics of individual GAFers is not really a concern (I'm quite confident that all of the enthusiasts here are extremely conscientious in this regard), or even a very interesting ethical question. The handling of a 'Zelda-specific' CEMU release by the developers is a more complex ethical question, as discussed here and here, and I'm a bit surprised by the degree of opposition to this type of rational discussion, in an otherwise broadminded community.

 

[KingSnake]

There should and can be discussion for and against without people being dicks about it.

Then make a new thread about this discussion.

Especially being in the community since 1788 you should know better than to derail an existing thread with an additional topic.

Then I would argue this thread doesn't need to exist because this is all already being covered in the official CEMU thread.

Also you should know how complaining about a thread ends.

 

[Durante]

The ethics of individual GAFers is not really a concern (I'm quite confident that all of the enthusiasts here are extremely conscientious in this regard), or even a very interesting ethical question. The handling of the CEMU release of Zelda by the developers is a more complex ethical question, as discussed here and here, and I'm a bit surprised by the degree of opposition to this type of rational discussion, in an otherwise broadminded community.

I just read the first post you linked, and I couldn't disagree more strongly.

Even if, for the sake of making the argument as clear as possible, the developers were to release a completely functional version of CEMU that runs BotW at 4k/60 with game-specific improvements tomorrow, there would be absolutely nothing wrong with that ethically. I mean, what would be the ethics they are violating? The inalienable right of a mega-corporation to make money by selling hardware? (Though that hardware would likely be selling out either way right now)

 

[Peterthumpa]

there's nothing wrong with emulating current gen stuff, owning a copy covers whatever ethics you're looking for here.

I mean, I kind of get what he meant to say. Nintendo's business is all about gaming, so naturally, they're making (or will make) money on every Switch sold as well. Perfectly emulating (not possible today though) one of the few reasons (for now) to buy their brand new console would definitely mean a completely different situation that I'm quite sure could surprise a few people here if legal actions were taken by Nintendo's part.

Something isn't happening not because it's a "law" or something already set in stone. It's just because Nintendo doesn't want to.

I mean, what would be the ethics they are violating? The inalienable right of a mega-corporation to make money by selling hardware? (Though that hardware would likely be selling out either way right now)

Uh, yes? It's one of the main and crucial part of their business.

 

[Paracelsus]

I just read the first post you linked, and I couldn't disagree more strongly.

Even if, for the sake of making the argument as clear as possible, the developers were to release a completely functional version of CEMU that runs BotW at 4k/60 with game-specific improvements tomorrow, there would be absolutely nothing wrong with that ethically. I mean, what would be the ethics they are violating? The inalienable right of a mega-corporation to make money by selling hardware? (Though that hardware would likely be selling out either way right now)

They would be simply doing what Nintendo should have, something the industry is graciously excusing them for not doing.

 

[petran79]

Bleem was never intended to be used for piracy though.

This is true though I cant remember well.
I think later versions of Bleem only accepted original PS1 discs. As long as you bought the emulator from the developers. The cracked version that was available on the wild played pirated copies too.

 

[Rats Off To Ya]

are you familiar with how things went for Bleem...?

They established a legal precedent that they committed no wrongdoing.

If Nintendo tried to drown Cemu with legal fees it would cost a lot less to get the case thrown out and there's a whole community that would be willing to crowd fund it. And if Nintendo thought it was worth the effort, don't you think they would have gone after Dolphin?

 

[Rats Off To Ya]

like, we've made great strides in recent years with FPGA's and such, but BSNES aside, there's always compromises. i love scenes that work to minimize them, but original hardware is always gonna be best for the most authentic experience - i've no idea where you'd have to be coming from to find that statement controversial, but it clearly rustles this Rats guy's jimmies.

Authenticity isn't something an emulator of a 3D console should strive for. I'll take a well-emulated PS2 game over the original any day of the week. I like to be able to discern the details in my games.

 

[IrishNinja]

They established a legal precedent that they committed no wrongdoing.

If Nintendo tried to drown Cemu with legal fees it would cost a lot less to get the case thrown out and there's a whole community that would be willing to crowd fund it. And if Nintendo thought it was worth the effort, don't you think they would have gone after Dolphin?

it also bankrupt them, pretty pyrrhic victory there. and no, a community's crowd-funding would not match the legal fees a company like nintendo could hit you with, if so inclined.

which, so far, they're not - and i hope you realize i'm not arguing that they should. we're only at this point because you keep saying things with a certainty that is unfounded.

Authenticity isn't something an emulator of a 3D console should strive for. I'll take a well-emulated PS2 game over the original any day of the week. I like to be able to discern the details in my games.

i like games being playable without hiccups or glitches, which absolutely happen on some games with PCSX2. likewise, i enjoy the detail games like FF XII give you when using a good pair of component cables (though i personally prefer most PS2 games over RGB).

authenticity on the gameplay end should absolutely be a point of emulation on any platform. visual improvements don't mean much if you can't finish the game.

 

[Durante]

Uh, yes? It's one of the main and crucial part of their business.

It's a part of their business, but it's not at all an ethical right. However, if someone releases a product which is more appealing to some people without violating any laws then that is their right.

 

[boneyjangles]

I would usually sway to the side of defending emulation, but feels pretty gross that they are pushing for this to come out so soon.

 

[KratosEnergyDrink]

this post i don't even know what to do with
there's nothing wrong with emulating current gen stuff, owning a copy covers whatever ethics you're looking for here.

Hypocritical, as if 1℅ of the people who played Wii/WiiU games on emulators had bought the original games. The makers of Cemu are fully aware that their software is used mostly for pirated copies, but they have their own agenda and need the "fame" and attention they get because of Cemu. If they want they could implement systems to prevent the use of downloaded copies easily.

 

[IrishNinja]

Hypocritical, as if 1℅ of the people who played Wii/WiiU games on emulators had bought the original games. The makers of Cemu are fully aware that their software is used mostly for pirated copies, but they have their own agenda and need the "fame" and attention they get because of Cemu. If they want they could implement systems to prevent the use of downloaded copies easily.

curious as to how you arrived at this empirical data

 

[Schopenhauerian]

Then make a new thread about this discussion. Especially being in the community since 1788 you should know better than to derail an existing thread with an additional topic. Also you should know how complaining about a thread ends.

I just read the first post you linked, and I couldn't disagree more strongly.

Even if, for the sake of making the argument as clear as possible, the developers were to release a completely functional version of CEMU that runs BotW at 4k/60 with game-specific improvements tomorrow, there would be absolutely nothing wrong with that ethically. I mean, what would be the ethics they are violating? The inalienable right of a mega-corporation to make money by selling hardware? (Though that hardware would likely be selling out either way right now)

Their right to make money by selling hardware, or to require use of their hardware to play their software, is not the essential thing (though that too could be debated). In the posts to which I linked (here and here), particular emphasis was placed (by multiple GAFers with the same ethical intuition) on the timeframe of emulator release, in line with a consequentialist ethical analysis, according to which the consequences of the emulator's release (undesirable use resulting from the public release of the emulator, predictably, becomes quantitatively greater with greater proximity to the game's launch, and likewise w/r/t whatever corresponding impact there might be on the game's sales) are vastly different, depending of the time of emulator release, and therefore the ethical valence is also vastly different depending on the time of the emulator release. Incidentally, I really do appreciate your willingness to engage rationally and respectfully on this point, but in recognition of established custom here (noted by KingSnake) perhaps we should wait until an independent thread pops up.

 

[Peterthumpa]

It's a part of their business, but it's not at all an ethical right. However, if someone releases a product which is more appealing to some people without violating any laws then that is their right.

Not everything wrong in this world is regulated. Sometimes a specific situation arises where a new regulation must be created in order to avoid jeopardizing something. If BotW was flawlessly playable on CEMU day one, I'd pretty pissed as a Nintendo shareholder.

And as I said in a different thread, I love CEMU, but these guys are specifically prioritizing a newly launched and extremely hyped game not because they're good people, you can bet on that. Just look at how their monthly Patreon backing basically doubled in a matter of days.

Long story short, emulators are great, they allow games to look and perform way better than what was intended with the original hardware, but things are almost crossing the line on the concept of "legal" in this case. Things are still ok because, well, the game is unplayable anyway.

Their right to make money by selling hardware, or to require use of their hardware to play their software, is not the essential thing (though that too could be debated). In the posts to which I linked (here and here), particular emphasis was placed (by multiple GAFers with the same ethical intuition) on the timeframe of emulator release, in line with a consequentialist ethical analysis, according to which the consequences of the emulator's release (undesirable use resulting from the public release of the emulator, predictably, becomes quantitatively greater with greater proximity to the game's launch, and likewise w/r/t whatever corresponding impact there might be on the game's sales) are vastly different, depending of the time of emulator release, and therefore the ethical valence is also vastly different depending on the time of the emulator release. Incidentally, I really do appreciate your willingness to engage rationally and respectfully on this point, but in recognition of established custom here (noted by KingSnake) perhaps we should wait until an independent thread pops up.

Agreed.

 

[IrishNinja]

if we're really pulling philosophy into this proper, this ethical quandary is far too low on ross' moral theory of prima facie duties to care

 

[Rats Off To Ya]

authenticity on the gameplay end should absolutely be a point of emulation on any platform. visual improvements don't mean much if you can't finish the game.

You're speaking as if there's some huge problem with emulators not playing games correctly. I can't remember the last time a game on PCSX2 was anything but flawless on the gameplay front. The biggest issues I see are graphical oddities that were originally masked by the low resolution, and even those are far outweighed by the benefits to IQ. And I have little experience with Dolphin, but my understanding is that many games are more or less flawless. With the progress Cemu has made in such a short time it seems inevitable that it will eventually be the best way to BotW.

 

[xealo]

Emulation is okay, for 20 year old games... not for new games. Hopefully the developer of Cemu get sued sometime.

The legal issue of emulators is one that has already been in court. Emulators are legal as long as they're not distributing the games themselves, which CEMU is not.

 

[IrishNinja]

With the progress Cemu has made in such a short time it seems inevitable that it will eventually be the best way to BotW.

again, agree to disagree here - the ability to play with either joy-cons or pro controller, and more importantly, take the game on the go means that even if the game is 100% bug free and accurate, this will never be the case. i get that increasing the visual fidelity negates that for you, but it's already a gorgeous game and that trade off is not at all worth it.

 

[martino]

Not everything wrong in this world is regulated. Sometimes a specific situation arises where a new regulation must be created in order to avoid jeopardizing something. If BotW was flawlessly playable on CEMU day one, I'd pretty pissed as a Nintendo shareholder.

And as I said in a different thread, I love CEMU, but these guys are specifically prioritizing a newly launched and extremely hyped game not because they're good people, you can bet on that. Just look at how their monthly Patreon backing basically doubled in a matter of days.

Long story short, emulators are great, they allow games to look and perform way better than what was intended with the original hardware, but things are almost crossing the line on the concept of "legal" in this case. Things are still ok because, well, the game is unplayable anyway.


Agreed.

Sure it's more important and make more sense to preserve first obscure games with no/not a lot of critic and / or sales success...
no, this make no sense and making an ad hominem don't make then guilty of anything.

 

[ZoddGutts]

Cemu will be the best way to play if they get the framerate lock on 30fps plus the higher resolution. Looking forward to it when they get it done.

 

[Rats Off To Ya]

again, agree to disagree here - the ability to play with either joy-cons or pro controller, and more importantly, take the game on the go means that even if the game is 100% bug free and accurate, this will never be the case. i get that increasing the visual fidelity negates that for you, but it's already a gorgeous game and that trade off is not at all worth it.

Sorry to break this to you.

And if I ever own a Switch I don't intend to ever take it out of the dock. Portability isn't a selling point for me in any way. If you want to dig your heels in the sand and say that portability trumps perfect image quality in terms of making something "definitive" then we're just at an impasse.

 

[madjoki]

again, agree to disagree here - the ability to play with either joy-cons or pro controller, and more importantly, take the game on the go means that even if the game is 100% bug free and accurate, this will never be the case.

If those are reasons Switch is better, you're wrong:

http://www.pcgamer.com/nintendos-joy-con-controllers-work-with-the-pc-too/
http://www.pcgamer.com/the-nintendo-switch-pro-controller-works-with-the-pc/
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1208226&

 

[Kurt]

Good, buy a switch.