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How would you react to a Metroid reboot w/ a black Samus

RoombaDance is just making the point that people care far more about the change of skin color or gender of a character than other appearance details that would actually look far more different overall (e.g. art style and clothing).

By haphazardly finding the most distant looking pieces of art to compare various incarnations of Link. Even using pieces that aren't canon like the Link's Awakening piece. Seriously have some credibility. Might as well pull a page of Metroid fanfic off the web and use it to prove that her skin tone changes.
 

Amir0x

Banned
What does it matter what color her skin is? If this concept upsets you I think you have to take a good, hard look on whether you are intolerant.

I'm not sure what this means. Do you think representation in games does not matter? Do you think an entire society subconsciously planting entire concepts of beauty and value into certain preset stereotypes and ideals does not inherently put limitations upon people who do not meet those ideals?

If you acknowledge this problem with society, and how it exists at the institutional level, then why is it surprising to you that color of the skin of a character matters? To say it doesn't at all is an inherently white thing to say (read: privileged), because of course white people simply expect to always be represented. They never wake up seeing children consider the black barbie doll the ugly one.

Do I think Samus Aran specifically needs to be made black? No. That character has a history, we don't necessarily need to retcon it. That said, if it happened I'd be positive about the change provided they were actually going to create a character whose life experience speaks to the type of world we live in and therefore the unique challenges she must have overcome. Similarly, I'd think such a perspective could bring a unique voice into a traditionally stale genre, perhaps touching on some unique thematic ground.

Let's also not do the whole "I'm color blind" thing, let's just skip that nonsense part of the discussion if it's coming.
 

InterMusketeer

Gold Member
Some of the arguments in this thread are just unbelievable to me.

tumblr_mt73v3odim1r9yp9do2_500.jpg


Just because a design is changed, improved or updated doesn't mean you can point to a character and say "HEY THEY CHANGE STUFF ABOUT THEM SO WHY DON'T THEY TURN HIM XYZ!?
Genderbending, whitewashing, racebending, I think all of that shit is dumb. Even moreso when I care about the character in question. And it has nothing to do with sexism or racism or whatever the fuck. It has all to do with Mickey Mouse being a mouse, and not a lion or a goose or an elephant.
 
RoombaDance is just making the point that people care far more about the change of skin color or gender of a character than other appearance details

Exactly! Look, I never questioned people's motives for feeling this way or claimed that people don't have a right to be upset to changes in their favored characters. If you look at my original post you'll see this. But I absolutely stand by this point.
 
Those Links are practically clones!
Sigh...You wanna compare Links? Then do it properly, and not backhandedly.

chart.png


The greatest deviations in the design of Link over the last few years has been Tri Force Heroes for the multiple hair colors and BOTW for the Champions Tunic, and guess what. In TFH Links hair is naturally blond, just dyed those colors to tell each link apart, and guess what else.

BOTW Spoilers

https://s10.postimg.org/kwa6bnnmx/tumblr_on60mb_BLk_T1ut3ddao1_1280.jpg

I mean, the official art of toon Link is incredibly different from Twilight Princess Link. The proportions, build, demeanor, etc. Then you have the default BotW Link looking vastly different from Ocarina of Time Link. Anyone familiar with those doesn't need visual examples to know what the big differences are. There's no official in-game models or official art that are "the most distant looking" from one another between some of these games. Not sure how that's a point of contention when the point is clear: people only really get up in arms when someone suggests a girl Link, even though we've gotten vastly different official Link designs throughout the series, even though there's room in the lore for there to be different genders/skin colors/etc. since each Link is a reincarnation.
The official art of for Toon Link is of course going to look different when it's the same general concept in a completely different art style. You might as well argue that Samus being chibi in Federation Force, is her "changing." Likewise, I fail to see how the default look of BOTW can simultaneously be "vastly different " from OOT while at the same time, the most prominent theory for the games placement in the timeline prior to its release was immediately after OOT starring the same Link.
 
Then maybe he should use an example that applies instead of one that doesn't.

How so?

By haphazardly finding the most distant looking pieces of art to compare various incarnations of Link. Even using pieces that aren't canon like the Link's Awakening piece. Seriously have some credibility. Might as well pull a page of Metroid fanfic off the web and use it to prove that her skin tone changes.

I mean, the official art of toon Link is incredibly different from Twilight Princess Link. The proportions, build, demeanor, etc. Then you have the default BotW Link looking vastly different from Ocarina of Time Link. Anyone familiar with those doesn't need visual examples to know what the big differences are. There's no official in-game models or official art that are "the most distant looking" from one another between some of these games. Not sure how that's a point of contention when the point is clear: people only really get up in arms when someone suggests a girl Link, even though we've gotten vastly different official Link designs throughout the series, even though there's room in the lore for there to be different genders/skin colors/etc. since each Link is a reincarnation.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Some of the arguments in this thread are just unbelievable to me.

tumblr_mt73v3odim1r9yp9do2_500.jpg


Just because a design is changed, improved or updated doesn't mean you can point to a character and say "HEY THEY CHANGE STUFF ABOUT THEM SO WHY DON'T THEY TURN HIM XYZ!?
Genderbending, whitewashing, racebending, I think all of that shit is dumb. Even moreso when I care about the character in question. And it has nothing to do with sexism or racism or whatever the fuck. It has all to do with Mickey Mouse being a mouse, and not a lion or a goose or an elephant.

Maybe it's a matter of having the maturity to realize that you do not own these characters in your fever pitched fandom, nor does it even make sense that you'd bestow a fictional character (much less a cartoon or a polygon build) with such incontrovertible features when to date that aspect has not actually been a defining characteristic of who Samus is. Yet, representation for minorities in media is far more important an issue for them than it is for any white person, because we are represented in all our stereotypes and ideals literally everywhere. Therefore, it makes no sense to be concerned about losing one single white representation in favor of a minority being represented, because I lose nothing and minorities generally stand a lot to gain by building up such milestones in media across the board.

Consider a film being made, a remake of a famous original from the 1960s. The casting director puts out the calls, and spends all day watching try-outs from various actors. Now the role specifically asks for a white male, middle aged with salt and pepper hair. He watches all day and is thoroughly uninspired, until a small Native American man walks through the door and blows his socks off. He decides makeup can make it appear as if he has salt and pepper hair, and the whiteness, well, there are plenty of white actors, by god he's going to make sure he has the best performance for his movie one way or the other.

His partner however fears the backlash of the original fans, and cautions against rocking the boat. Perhaps they should just appease fans? After all, it's just escapism.

Who is more important to please and be fair to? The artist making the movie, who agreed to let the casting director decide? The native American who put in the best performance? The fans who have invested some sort of alternative life into these stories and this fictional world?

In the end, if Nintendo wanted to tell a story with a black Samus Aran, it really shouldn't upset you. You've had endless games representing the original Samus, and there would be one game representing this new Samus. Her whiteness was never a characteristic that was emphasized, in fact it appears her gender is the more important element if we're talking about aspects that are actually touched upon within the story. So you lack the ability to disconnect yourself from your selfish, genuinely worthless desires about a character's skin color which as far as I'm aware impacts you far less than it would the developer making the game who felt they had a story to tell with a Black Samus Aran, or the millions of Black people around the world who would play a Metroid game finally feeling they're being represented in some way.

In the end, it's clear to me which desires are more paramount and whose desires should be ignored here.
 
Maybe it's a matter of having the maturity to realize that you do not own these characters in your fever pitched fandom, nor does it even make sense that you'd bestow a fictional character (much less a cartoon or a polygon build) with such incontrovertible features when to date that aspect has not actually been a defining characteristic of who Samus is. Yet, representation for minorities in media is far more important an issue for them than it is for any white person, because we are represented in all our stereotypes and ideals literally everywhere. Therefore, it makes no sense to be concerned about losing one single white representation in favor of a minority being represented, because I lose nothing and minorities generally stand a lot to gain by building up such milestones in media across the board.

Consider a film being made, a remake of a famous original from the 1960s. The casting director puts out the calls, and spends all day watching try-outs from various actors. Now the role specifically asks for a white male, middle aged with salt and pepper hair. He watches all day and is thoroughly uninspired, until a small Native American man walks through the door and blows his socks off. He decides makeup can make it appear as if he has salt and pepper hair, and the whiteness, well, there are plenty of white actors, by god he's going to make sure he has the best performance for his movie one way or the other.

His partner however fears the backlash of the original fans, and cautions against rocking the boat. Perhaps they should just appease fans? After all, it's just escapism.

Who is more important to please and be fair to? The artist making the movie, who agreed to let the casting director decide? The native American who put in the best performance? The fans who have invested some sort of alternative life into these stories and this fictional world?

In the end, if Nintendo wanted to tell a story with a black Samus Aran, it really shouldn't upset you. You've had endless games representing the original Samus, and there would be one game representing this new Samus. Her whiteness was never a characteristic that was emphasized, in fact it appears her gender is the more important element if we're talking about aspects that are actually touched upon within the story. So you lack the ability to disconnect yourself from your selfish, genuinely worthless desires about a character's skin color which as far as I'm aware impacts you far less than it would the developer making the game who felt they had a story to tell with a Black Samus Aran, or the millions of Black people around the world who would play a Metroid game finally feeling they're being represented in some way.

In the end, it's clear to me which desires are more paramount and whose desires should be ignored here.

Wow, it sure is a shame that there's no way to appease both long time fans, and these millions of black people. Nope, it totally has to be an either or thing. Also, you're comparison to a movie being remade falls apart pretty immediately when you consider that a movie stars real people, and the people who get the roles should only be judge solely on talent and not how much they visually fit the role. Also please stop telling people they can't care about something like this. Come on, you can't expect people to sympathize with something while simultaneously telling them to stop having an opinion over something.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Wow, it sure is a shame that there's no way to appease both long time fans, and these millions of black people. Nope, it totally has to be an either or thing. Also, you're comparison to a movie being remade falls apart pretty immediately when you consider that a movie stars real people, and the people who get the roles should only be judge solely on talent and not how much they visually fit the role. Also please stop telling people they can't care about something like this. Come on, you can't expect people to sympathize with something while simultaneously telling them to stop having an opinion over something.

You can have an opinion, I just have the right to call it infantile and borderline offensive. Surely you don't believe I have to respect a view in which you believe that the race of a fictional cartoon character or polygon mesh is somehow more vital to keep in tact that the race of an actual living human being fictional character. That you believe that is the important aspect of the hypothetical I was sharing really does say it all about the point you guys are arguing.

The fictional characters should be judged solely on the quality of the output from the developer and their desired artistic vision, not the whiny requests of petulant fanboys upset they're going to have to change their cosplay outfits or some shit. Just like Pendleton Ward thought Natasha Allegri's gender swapped version of his characters had merit enough to tell unique stories from their perspective, it is Nintendo's prerogative to believe that there may be a unique story to tell about a Samus Aran who happens to be black. Call it a split timeline, an alternate universe. It doesn't matter because it's fictional and it's their characters, not yours. You can criticize it, but I hope to God you come up with better reasons for shitting on all the potential upsides such a change might bring to this character's perspective and approach, because so far at best they don't extend beyond surface level fandom and selfishness.
 

galvatron

Member
As described by OP's second scenario, I'd love it and look forward to the new character showing up in Smash.

As long as the gameplay is good and the story isn't intrusive, I'm down for any metroid.
 
You can have an opinion, I just have the right to call it infantile and borderline offensive..
Just like I have the right to consider your attempt to talk down to me like you somehow hold more authority in this argument, just as infantile and offensive.

Surely you don't believe I have to respect a view in which you believe that the race of a fictional cartoon character or polygon mesh is somehow more vital to keep in tact that the race of an actual living human being fictional character..
I'm thinking this is a typo, but I never said, a cartoon characters race matters more then a real persons race. I just maintain that if racebending a character can have positive effects and that it's perfectly reasonable to have those effects effect you, then the opposite is also true, and it is perfectly reasonable for a character you grew up with and spent plenty of money on to matter to you.
That you believe that is the important aspect of the hypothetical I was sharing really does say it all about the point you guys are arguing.
Says what exactly, that I think preventing a actor from a role based on his skintone is racist, because yeah that'd be racist.
The fictional characters should be judged solely on the quality of the output from the developer and their desired artistic vision, not the whiny requests of petulant fanboys upset they're going to have to change their cosplay outfits or some shit.
'Hey you should feel bad for this group of people, also everyone in this group of people act the same way and are terrible.'
Just like Pendleton Ward thought Natasha Allegri's gender swapped version of his characters had merit enough to tell unique stories from their perspective, it is Nintendo's prerogative to believe that there may be a unique story to tell about a Samus Aran who happens to be black. Call it a split timeline, an alternate universe. It doesn't matter because it's fictional and it's their characters, not yours.
The OP describes it as a "reboot" not a alternate universe or split timeline. A complete rehaul of the entire brand that would erase the original Samus from existence, all for simply changing her skin tone of all things.
You can criticize it, but I hope to God you come up with better reasons for shitting on all the potential upsides such a change might bring to this character's perspective and approach, because so far at best they don't extend beyond surface level fandom and selfishness.
Good lord, why am I dignifying this with a response.
 

InterMusketeer

Gold Member
Yet, representation for minorities in media is far more important an issue for them than it is for any white person, because we are represented in all our stereotypes and ideals literally everywhere.
Everyone's a minority in some way. I'm Dutch. How often are Dutch people represented in games or films? Not that often. Even our own Dutch studio, Guerilla Games won't make a game about our own people. If so, why can't Samus be Dutch? Actually, the Dutch probably have more representation than tons of other countries. Why can't she be Belgian? Why can't she be Congolese? The list goes on. She could be any kind of person or minority. IMHO it is pointless to keep talking about representation like this. Samus happens to be a white space lady. If they want to diversify the series, they can come up with other characters that have different traits.

Who is more important to please and be fair to?
I mean, that's up to them. But I can have a negative opinion of said film/actor and not see it.

In the end, if Nintendo wanted to tell a story with a black Samus Aran, it really shouldn't upset you.
I'll decide myself what does or does not upset me, thank you very much.

If Nintendo were to make that decision, I would be against it and I'd try to make it known to them. And there'd be people here on NeoGAF calling me and others racists because we prefer the original character. That's what's messed up.

You've had endless games representing the original Samus
Hey hey, slow down there. Let's not get crazy. Endless Metroid games, lol.

I don't even care for Metroid that much. Haven't played many of the games.
I just think the idea in and of itself is stupid.

Her whiteness was never a characteristic that was emphasized, in fact it appears her gender is the more important element if we're talking about aspects that are actually touched upon within the story.
If her skin color was never important, then it wouldn't be when she's black either. And if they do make her skin color a focal point in a new game, why can't she be white? It's a pointless change that has no bearing on anything.

So you lack the ability to disconnect yourself from your selfish, genuinely worthless desires about a character's skin color
You can say that about anyone's desires about anything ever. "Black people's selfish, worthless desires for representation when *Insert minority*'s representation is far worse off."

Also, why can't I just proudly say what my opinions, and my selfish desires are? Isn't that what this board is for? Should I always, at any point in my life, hold other people's interests above my own? Because then I would probably be dead now. Or maybe not, I need to take my friends and family into consideration. Shit.

In the end, it's clear to me which desires are more paramount and whose desires should be ignored here.
That's just, like, your opinion man.
 

Madame M

Banned
If Nintendo were to make that decision, I would be against it and I'd try to make it known to them.

It's a pointless change that has no bearing on anything.

If it had no bearing on anything then I'm curious, why would you be against it?

Those two statements contradict each other.
 

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
I'd be very confused, because I don't really see the point.

Samus being out of her suit at all is historically never a good thing. So if we're getting a good Metroid game that doesn't feature worse gameplay segments or shitty cutscenes and story sequences, it ends up making no difference at all. And that makes it almost backhanded, like "woo, we are pushing diversity!" but then hiding the character in a suit until the credits roll.

From that perspective they would be better off doing it with another series or a new IP. There's just nothing to gain by changing Samus into anything unless they are just going to make a shitty Metroid game. And then I'd be mad. Because I don't want shitty Metroid.

Fire Emblem would actually be a good series to introduce a black protagonist.
 

Amir0x

Banned
I'm thinking this is a typo, but I never said, a cartoon characters race matters more then a real persons race. I just maintain that if racebending a character can have positive effects and that it's perfectly reasonable to have those effects effect you, then the opposite is also true, and it is perfectly reasonable for a character you grew up with and spent plenty of money on to matter to you.

What are the reasons the character's status impacts you? There are very real reasons why such representations are often considered important within the black community. So I can assure you odds are your reasons are likely piss and shit compared to the potential importance of such a change to someone who is a minority who is suddenly about to be represented in that way. This we call a matter of priorities man, seriously.

Because as far as you've written, your reasons are "I spent money on this series" and "I grew up with the character" as the sole defining metrics leading you to think your reasons are important in some way. Shall we compare the vast difference of importance and significance between your reasons so far and the, like, one thousand different reasons that such representations in media might be important to a person of color?

'Hey you should feel bad for this group of people, also everyone in this group of people act the same way and are terrible.'

I'm going to pretend you didn't make this comment. Think about the insensitive comparisons you make dude.

The OP describes it as a "reboot" not a alternate universe or split timeline. A complete rehaul of the entire brand that would erase the original Samus from existence, all for simply changing her skin tone of all things.

Oh, do the other Metroid games suddenly stop existing if this race swapped version came into existence? I didnt know that's how it works, suddenly being erased from all previous placement in the Metroid universe.

But for the record, if they put the phrase "alternate universe" or "split timeline", that would make it OK for you? I ask because the logical conclusion of such a thing, of course, is if that fictional justification for a change in a fictional character's race was enough for you, why is it such a leap to merely not have any reason for it and just explore the new Samus character for a while?

Good lord, why am I dignifying this with a response.

It's not dignity you gotta worry about brother. So far, once again, you've yet to provide a single justification that qualifies why anyone should care that you'd whine about the character's race changing. Not one. Think about this. You're invested enough in preserving this fictional white character that you'd come up with ever increasingly ridiculous arguments against the change itself, yet have failed to come up with even a single reason why it's worth preserving outside of, um, tradition I guess? Comfort level?

I'm sorry if I expect a bit more out of these arguments, considering how annoyed you apparently are at the very idea of someone's completely made up character who you own in no way being changed in a way the developer had control over, intended and thought had merit.
 

CazTGG

Member
I'd be fine with it, though being honest I can't imagine the Metroid fanbase won't divulge into the same doxxing & death threats that the developers behind DmC got when they went with a different design for that reboot, except even more vicious and no doubt full of racist bile.

On a semi-related note, I would like to see Nintendo have a more diverse group of IP and give a person of color their own dedicated series. People seem to have taken a liking to Twintelle in ARMS so it's clear that the interest is there and, as the western market becomes increasingly diverse, that representation will become a far more important decision to make in the future.

I'd be very confused, because I don't really see the point.

Samus being out of her suit at all is historically never a good thing. So if we're getting a good Metroid game that doesn't feature worse gameplay segments or shitty cutscenes and story sequences, it ends up making no difference at all. And that makes it almost backhanded, like "woo, we are pushing diversity!" but then hiding the character in a suit until the credits roll.

Do...Have you ever played the original Metroid?

Millions of black people are not going to play the next Metroid game, and Nintendo does not have a story to tell about a black Samus Aran.

I hate to break it to you.

May I borrow your time machine?
 

rex

Member
In the end, if Nintendo wanted to tell a story with a black Samus Aran, it really shouldn't upset you. You've had endless games representing the original Samus, and there would be one game representing this new Samus. Her whiteness was never a characteristic that was emphasized, in fact it appears her gender is the more important element if we're talking about aspects that are actually touched upon within the story. So you lack the ability to disconnect yourself from your selfish, genuinely worthless desires about a character's skin color which as far as I'm aware impacts you far less than it would the developer making the game who felt they had a story to tell with a Black Samus Aran, or the millions of Black people around the world who would play a Metroid game finally feeling they're being represented in some way.

Millions of black people are not going to play the next Metroid game, and Nintendo does not have a story to tell about a black Samus Aran.

I hate to break it to you.
 

InterMusketeer

Gold Member
If it had no bearing on anything then I'm curious, why would you be against it?

Those two statements contradict each other.
I believe my position is very clear, and you know exactly what I meant there. I can't help but feel that you're just making fun of my choice of words there. English is not my mother tongue. I try my best writing thse posts but I make mistakes.

I'll reply to your question regardless, and retract my accusation if that wasn't your intent.

Samus' skin color has no bearing on the story, the character or whatever, so there's no reason to change it. Mickey's character wouldn't suffer, or benefit, from being a different animal from a mouse either. Him being a mouse has no bearing on anything related to him. And so he should remain a mouse, because that's what he has always been.
 

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
Do...Have you ever played the original Metroid?

Admittedly I've never bothered with the NES version, but don't you have to use a code to play as Samus without her suit? You know I'm referring to Zero Mission and Other M which actually feature it in a normal playthrough and are worse for it.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Everyone's a minority in some way. I'm Dutch. How often are Dutch people represented in games or films? Not that often. Even our own Dutch studio, Guerilla Games won't make a game about our own people. If so, why can't Samus be Dutch? Actually, the Dutch probably have more representation than tons of other countries. Why can't she be Belgian? Why can't she be Congolese? The list goes on. She could be any kind of person or minority. IMHO it is pointless to keep talking about representation like this. Samus happens to be a white space lady. If they want to diversify the series, they can come up with other characters that have different traits.

In so much as there is a representation issue for Dutch people, then sure I don't see why you couldn't issue a hypothetical about changing Samus Aran to being a dutch person. But that's not what this hypothetical is about. It's if Nintendo consciously decided to make Samus black. If Nintendo consciously decided to make Samus Dutch (and honestly, have they ever said what country she came from? She could be Dutch for all we know), then that is also their artistic vision and as long as they have a reason for going this direction we should respect it too.

To me representation is problematic when it becomes a matter of "token-izing" a race of people, condescendingly including them in a token roles just to say you have diversity. But if they have given enough consideration to actually make Samus black (or Dutch), I'd assume there was likely a good reason for doing so because I trust Nintendo's overall control of the franchise.

It is telling that for you this idea of representation is "pointless." But when you are a minority who lives within a society who paints ideals of success, beauty and culture itself as being everything but what you are, and your children are being raised in this society literally to even hate their own color of their skin... then yeah, it becomes increasingly urgent to latch onto this idea of representation and try to expand the reach of role models and heroes and seeing people of a similar complexion in ever diverse roles demonstrating to minority children from an early age that they should not be afraid to reach out for the stars, that they don't need to be put in a cage and narrowly defined.

Yeah, these things become important then. I'm fairly certain you don't even have the concept of what it would be like to grow up in a society that favors everything you are not from birth.


If Nintendo were to make that decision, I would be against it and I'd try to make it known to them. And there'd be people here on NeoGAF calling me and others racists because we prefer the original character. That's what's messed up.

To me it seems more an insensitivity to why race becomes so important in representation for certain groups, and why it necessarily is more important for them than it is for you or I. To your ear this may even sound unfair, because you're clearly not familiar with concepts like institutional racism. But I don't think you are racist so much as merely ignorant as to the history here.

If Nintendo decided to do this on their own volition and artistic strength and then you complained about it like it was some egregious sin, then yeah there might be value in educating you on why this subject is especially sensitive to people of color. Why it IS more important for them than it is for you.



You can say that about anyone's desires about anything ever. "Black people's selfish, worthless desires for representation when *Insert minority*'s representation is far worse off."

Also, why can't I just proudly say what my opinions, and my selfish desires are? Isn't that what this board is for? Should I always, at any point in my life, hold other people's interests above my own? Because then I would probably be dead now. Or maybe not, I need to take my friends and family into consideration. Shit.


That's just, like, your opinion man.

You can, of course. But there is a little thing called empathy. And at a certain point it is a good habit to learn when it is not worth fighting for something that would have little impact on your life but may have a calculable benefit to someone else. And all you have to do is not make it difficult for them on the rare occasion it happens.

Empathy is arguably the most important human trait.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Millions of black people are not going to play the next Metroid game, and Nintendo does not have a story to tell about a black Samus Aran.

I hate to break it to you.

One, you have no idea the stories Nintendo is capable of telling, and so the fantasy scenario is not worth engaging.

Two, the actual number of black folk who decided to play it and benefited from the representation does not actually matter to the point being made. If it was only one, it still would be more important for them than it is for me. For various obvious reasons.
 
What are the reasons the character's status impacts you? There are very real reasons why such representations are often considered important within the black community. So I can assure you odds are your reasons are likely piss and shit compared to the potential importance of such a change to someone who is a minority who is suddenly about to be represented in that way. This we call a matter of priorities man, seriously.
I don't know, maybe it's a matter of how the character was perceived, maybe it's a matter of just liking the character. I don't have anything in particular for Samus, but there are plenty of stories of people having fictional character change their life. Why those hypothetical people matter less then your hypothetical people I really fail to see. Likewise I again fail to see why a secondary character like say a daughter of Samus or a rival to Samus can't work just as well.
Because as far as you've written, your reasons are "I spent money on this series" and "I grew up with the character" as the sole defining metrics leading you to think your reasons are important in some way. Shall we compare the vast difference of importance and significance between your reasons so far and the, like, one thousand different reasons that such representations in media might be important to a person of color?
I'm not arguing that people who want representation don't matter or matter less, I'm just not gonna pretend that the people who do like Samus the way she is and would be severely disgruntled and dissatisfied to see her changed, don't suddenly not matter just because there's also black people who feel misrepresented. Which makes little sense when you want to play the "who has it worse" game, as black people are not the only group who don't get represented in media, and are certainly not the group that gets represented least.
I'm going to pretend you didn't make this comment. Think about the insensitive comparisons you make dude.
I'm not the one making massive generalizations while also preaching about diversity.

Oh, do the other Metroid games suddenly stop existing if this race swapped version came into existence? I didnt know that's how it works, suddenly being erased from all previous placement in the Metroid universe.
I mean a reboot typically supersedes the previous universe, and if it's bad enough, it will go out of it's way to completely erase all evidence of previous universes. But I guess people who like Samus as she currently is just shouldn't complain or have no right to complain as they still have all the games they already played. Damn be them if they're looking forward to a new game that features the character they consider "samus." I mean it's not like there's an easy fix to this that could appease both sides, no this new character has to be Samus.
But for the record, if they put the phrase "alternate universe" or "split timeline", that would make it OK for you? I ask because the logical conclusion of such a thing, of course, is if that fictional justification for a change in a fictional character's race was enough for you, why is it such a leap to merely not have any reason for it and just explore the new Samus character for a while?
No, not really, but at least it'd mean that regular Samus is still around. I guess my bigger question is why they felt the need to create a whole new universe for a racebent Samus, when they could just make a black Samus-like character in the main universe.

It's not dignity you gotta worry about brother. So far, once again, you've yet to provide a single justification that qualifies why anyone should care that you'd whine about the character's race changing. Not one. Think about this. You're invested enough in preserving this fictional white character that you'd come up with ever increasingly ridiculous arguments against the change itself, yet have failed to come up with even a single reason why it's worth preserving outside of, um, tradition I guess? Comfort level?
The only evidence that you've provided is that it'd be nice for diversity sake, while ignoring the people who are black that don't want this and ignoring the much simpler and vastly easier option of creating a new character.

I'm sorry if I expect a bit more out of these arguments, considering how annoyed you apparently are at the very idea of someone's completely made up character who you own in no way being changed in a way the developer had control over, intended and thought had merit.
I'm honestly more annoyed by you assuming that every human being is apparently the same mentally and should care about everything the same way.
 

InterMusketeer

Gold Member
It is telling that for you this idea of representation is "pointless."
Oh, but that's where you're wrong. I'm all for representation of minorities in games.
I want more black people in games. I want more black people as the main character in games. I want them on the cover, I want them as a toy in my Happy Meal and in my bowl of cereal. Heck, I'd happily take a black main character as the lead in the next Metroid game.

Where I draw the line though, is taking an established character, who in this case happens to be white, and altering things about her for the sake of diversity, be it a 'reboot' or otherwise.

And I'm sorry, but the way you're talking about this is not exactly convincing me. If I followed what you said in your post, anytime someone asks "Should XX be black?" I'd have to say yes. Yes, they should be black because representation is important, and definitely moreso than my own representation or wishes.

"Should Mario be black?" Yes, because representation is important.

"Should Drake be black?" Yes, because representation is important.

"Should Tracer be black?" Yes, because representation is important.

"Should Cloud be black?" Yes, because representation is important.

Etc.

I also want to remind you that you know nothing about me, my characteristics, what kind of life I might have lived 'till now, whether or not I feel represented, and all that. It doesn't exactly make you look good, making assumptions like that.
 

nekkid

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
As a reboot? Sure, why not.

As a sequel that would be some dumb shit.
 
Is the Samus in the various Metroid games meant to be the same person, or is it more of a Link situation? If it's the latter, then why not have a black Samus?
 

Tuck

Member
^Its the former.

I don't really care, as in I wouldn't be upset if they did, but my general preference here is "Make a new character." Arbitrarily changing the skin colour of an existing character doesn't really seem like a major victory for civil rights, feels at most like breadcrumbs. I'd rather them make new black/asian/latino characters from the ground up and make a fanbase around them for their own merits. I'd probably be more supportive of a black Link since Link isn't actually one character but a set of characters.

But honestly it really doesn't matter to me, specially since this would be a reboot (I would be vehemently against it in a direct sequel).

Genderbending I'm less fond of because 99% of the time its just so tumblr crazies can go wild with their fan fiction.
 

rex

Member
One, you have no idea the stories Nintendo is capable of telling, and so the fantasy scenario is not worth engaging.

Two, the actual number of black folk who decided to play it and benefited from the representation does not actually matter to the point being made. If it was only one, it still would be more important for them than it is for me. For various obvious reasons.

I know that Nintendo shows little interest in telling stories and if you think there's a character study in the future for Samus Aran after the Other M debacle, black, white or otherwise, then you're delusional.

And the actual number of black people who will benefit is zero. Because it's not going to happen. Nintendo is not going to drastically change one of their mascots so they can be enlisted in a cause.
 

CazTGG

Member
Oh, but that's where you're wrong. I'm all for representation of minorities in games.
I want more black people in games. I want more black people as the main character in games. I want them on the cover, I want them as a toy in my Happy Meal and in my bowl of cereal. Heck, I'd happily take a black main character as the lead in the next Metroid game.

Where I draw the line though, is taking an established character, who in this case happens to be white, and altering things about her for the sake of diversity, be it a 'reboot' or otherwise.

Did it bother you when Captain America became a black guy? When Ms. Marvel become a Pakistani American Muslim?

The entire point of a reboot is to try something different, be it a change in mechanics, character or so on. There's nothing about Samus as a character that requires her to be white so I don't see why it's such a problem for that to be altered should Nintendo choose to do so in the future.

Yes I know that Kamala and Sam aren't technically reboots but you get the point of me asking that.
 

Dynheart

Banned
Read the entire thread, and per usual, both sides thumping their chest like their way is the superior vision for the industry, for media, and for society. Narrowing it down to just the gaming industry alone, I do not see why it has to be one way or the other.

Wanting X main character, that has been established for 30+ years, (not to mention coming up with a bunch of non-factors to push certain narratives) to be a certain sex, gender, and/or race. Differ the ethnic background for good measure. This completely changes a character that has been loved for 30+ years (any character, does not have to pertain to only Samus), as simply swapping these traits only meets a visual checklist for a particular sect of people in the gaming industry. A complete character overhaul would be in order: from origins, upbringing, their en-devours. A simple swap would seem lazy, and would not appease anyone at all. However-

Minorities do need more representation in all forms of media, and when they are represented, the way they are portrayed is usually pretty stereotypical. What I do not get is both sides of the argument will not budge, as both sides are hell bent on wanting to one-up the one. A proposal, through the community of course, of making spin-offs, or new characters within these well established worlds seem to not be enough. This is the part I do not understand: It has to be a re-writing of a well established character or not at all. Why? Why can't there be a new character in the Metroid universe that is African American (pick any skin tone/ethnicity), and having that character's origin reflect it, instead of re-writing a legacy that has a following of 30+ years. Also-

I do not understand the stance of not changing these worlds at all. Adding new characters, side games, etc. These can add depth to an old franchise. To me, that seems to be a middle ground that no one wants to settle on. It's: no changes to legacy games, or practically re-writing a 30+ year old characters (beloved characters at that).
 

rex

Member
Did it bother you when Captain America became a black guy? When Ms. Marvel become a Pakistani American Muslim?

The entire point of a reboot is to try something different, be it a change in mechanics, character or so on. There's nothing about Samus as a character that requires her to be white so I don't see why it's such a problem for that to be altered should Nintendo choose to do so in the future.

Yes I know that Kamala and Sam aren't technically reboots but you get the point of me asking that.

But her character begins and ends with her appearance. It's the most important part of any Nintendo character, very few of which actually have much character.

And when Nintendo tried to add some to Samus in particular it was viewed as an unmitigated disaster.

You might as well ask why they don't change the mascot of sports teams on account of having no character to go along with it. The character is the appearance, for all intents and purposes. These Nintendo characters are mascots and if you change the appearance you run the risk of severing a connection between fans and the company that has been built up for as much as three decades.
 

InterMusketeer

Gold Member
Did it bother you when Captain America became a black guy? When Ms. Marvel become a Pakistani American Muslim?

The entire point of a reboot is to try something different, be it a change in mechanics, character or so on. There's nothing about Samus as a character that requires her to be white so I don't see why it's such a problem for that to be altered should Nintendo choose to do so in the future.
I don't give a toss about those characters, and I don't know anything about them, so no, that doesn't bother me.

In general I don't care for reboots. I think that if you have new ideas for a character or story then you should probably just be writing an entirely new one. If Nintendo wants to make a seperate game starring a black character, I'd be all for that. Also, with Metroid the situation is somewhat unique, because fans have been wanting a new game for ages and they've gotten nothing. If Nintendo were to just come out and say"Hey we made a new game but we rebooted it (I'm assuming this hypothetical reboot would see more changes than just Samus' skin color) so it's actually not really what you wanted!" would only piss people off. See Federation Force.
 
Read the entire thread, and per usual, both sides thumping their chest like their way is the superior vision for the industry, for media, and for society. Narrowing it down to just the gaming industry alone, I do not see why it has to be one way or the other.

Wanting X main character, that has been established for 30+ years, (not to mention coming up with a bunch of non-factors to push certain narratives) to be a certain sex, gender, and/or race. Differ the ethnic background for good measure. This completely changes a character that has been loved for 30+ years (any character, does not have to pertain to only Samus), as simply swapping these traits only meets a visual checklist for a particular sect of people in the gaming industry. A complete character overhaul would be in order: from origins, upbringing, their en-devours. A simple swap would seem lazy, and would not appease anyone at all. However-

Minorities do need more representation in all forms of media, and when they are represented, the way they are portrayed is usually pretty stereotypical. What I do not get is both sides of the argument will not budge, as both sides are hell bent on wanting to one-up the one. A proposal, through the community of course, of making spin-offs, or new characters within these well established worlds seem to not be enough. This is the part I do not understand: It has to be a re-writing of a well established character or not at all. Why? Why can't there be a new character in the Metroid universe that is African American (pick any skin tone/ethnicity), and having that character's origin reflect it, instead of re-writing a legacy that has a following of 30+ years. Also-

I do not understand the stance of not changing these worlds at all. Adding new characters, side games, etc. These can add depth to an old franchise. To me, that seems to be a middle ground that no one wants to settle on. It's: no changes to legacy games, or practically re-writing a 30+ year old characters (beloved characters at that).

Here we go with the 30 year old shit again.

As if Super Metroid would no longer be canon. As if Metroid Prime would be wiped off from history or memory. Like the history of Samus Aran, the deep lore in which she's entrenched, would be irreparably harmed and distorted and the sense of wonder you felt when you first stepped into Phendrana Drifts would disappear. All because Samus is portrayed as a Black woman.

This is an eye-opener.
 

Amir0x

Banned
I know that Nintendo shows little interest in telling stories and if you think there's a character study in the future for Samus Aran after the Other M debacle, black, white or otherwise, then you're delusional.

You don't actually need a "character study" for the exercise to have broad merit. Representation of minorities in roles of all sorts of criminally low, far below even the percentage they make up within society itself. Just as they deserve representations which do go in depth into the black existence within society, they also deserve characters for which being black just is justification enough, where they get to act as a hero for children and teenagers in minority groups and let their imagination run wild with nothing more than the fact that the space hero looks like them.

Again there is no actual impact of any serious consequence for those who are just mad 'cause they grew up with the character, versus the very real positive impact integrating such characters into the social fabric of pop culture icons can potentially have - as long as the creator of the vision are themselves OK with it, as they obviously would be in this case.

And the actual number of black people who will benefit is zero. Because it's not going to happen. Nintendo is not going to drastically change one of their mascots so they can be enlisted in a cause.

The statistical likelihood of Nintendo actually doing this is not actually the point of this thread or this discussion, is it? The broad implications of a developer making a choice like this about a beloved mascot/icon is itself worth discussion, and is doubly so clear after we see how thoroughly unprepared many are for it even when they admit they can come up with no viable reasons to complain outside of selfish ones.

It is a thought experiment of the sort that has value on its own. No one here is arguing that Nintendo is likely to do this.
 

Kyzon

Member
Ok, real question. I wouldn't mind a black girl in a Power Suit, but I'm against making Samus black just for the sake of making her black.

That's like making Mario Black, or Sonic a human. Why do that instead of creating a new character. Even with a reboot.
 

nekkid

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Ok, real question. I wouldn't mind a black girl in a Power Suit, but I'm against making Samus black just for the sake of making her black.

That's like making Mario Black, or Sonic a human. Why do that instead of creating a new character. Even with a reboot.

I don't like the idea of changing an established character's race or sex for the sake of diversity. Increased diversity should take the form of good new characters.

It happens sometimes in TV and movies (reboots or adaptations), but that's more a case of the right actor happening to be of a different ethnicity or sex.
 
Here we go with the 30 year old shit again.

As if Super Metroid would no longer be canon. As if Metroid Prime would be wiped off from history or memory. Like the history of Samus Aran, the deep lore in which she's entrenched, would be irreparably harmed and distorted and the sense of wonder you felt when you first stepped into Phendrana Drifts would disappear. All because Samus is portrayed as a Black woman.

This is an eye-opener.

I mean yeah, those experiences are experiences we've had with those characters. I mean the level design and sheer joy that Mario Galaxy brought when I first played it would be the same even if the game starred Sonic, but the experience wouldn't be the same. Also, unless you want to go the "space magic" route, changing Samus's race would actually make the experience of Super Metroid, that we experienced, none canon.

You can't have a character be canonically white and then suddenly just be black because potatoes.
You don't actually need a "character study" for the exercise to have broad merit. Representation of minorities in roles of all sorts of criminally low, far below even the percentage they make up within society itself. Just as they deserve representations which do go in depth into the black existence within society, they also deserve characters for which being black just is justification enough, where they get to act as a hero for children and teenagers in minority groups and let their imagination run wild with nothing more than the fact that the space hero looks like them.

Again there is no actual impact of any serious consequence for those who are just mad 'cause they grew up with the character, versus the very real positive impact integrating such characters into the social fabric of pop culture icons can potentially have - as long as the creator of the vision are themselves OK with it, as they obviously would be in this case.
Let me explain something here. I actually have pretty, or rather severely, bad anxiety that manifests itself consistently over fears and rapid paranoid thoughts in regards to fictional characters that I like. Paranoid thoughts so strong that they can and have in the past prevented sleep, and recently forced me to scour DeviantART to reassure myself that there was no "bad" (not gonna say how because I've been harmed for opening up like this before on the internet) fan art anywhere. What typically calms me down is the rationality that Nintendo would never significantly alter any of their characters and as such I never have to canonically fear any of my most "precious" or "cherished" fictional characters from said company being portrayed as such. Now imagine how said anxiety and paranoid thoughts would react if suddenly out of the blue, Nintendo announced that a character of theirs that's never been changed significantly, was suddenly changed just for the sake of it.

Similarly, in one of my most drawn out "anxiety cycles" I was in constant and unrelenting fear of a cartoon I like somehow making a fan fiction canon. I feared this because the fandom and creators were much closer then is usual and said fan fiction, as terrible as it is, was a meme among the fanbase. Amidst this "anxiety cycle" my mother passed away unexpectedly, which took my already unrelenting and annoying anxiety and paranoia and added a large large large dose of depression to it. You want to know what dragged me out of said anxiety and depression? Well, it was the stoic unchangingness of Nintendo characters. In the middle of me losing it over cartoon characters I like potentially being tied canonically to a horrible fan fiction and the general feeling of great upset/grief of how easily my life could change on a whim and the feelings of great loss, Skyward Sword and Mario 3D Land released, and the sudden realization that,

"Hey, here's a bunch worlds and characters that never change randomly or suffer from the sheer chaoticness of life."

Was a little hard to ignore. Now imagine how I must of felt, when three years later I was being called sexist by members of Neogaf because I didn't want my favorite character, Link, a character that helped me through anxiety, grief, and depression, changed to a woman. Needless to say it kicked off an even worst "anxiety cycle" that lasted almost three years, as I lived in fear of news of BOTW confirming a "female Link" not only because I didn't want a character that meant so much to me changed, but also because I didn't want the members on this site who treated me like dogshit to get their way.

You and many others keep acting like it's impossible to have any meaningful connection with a fictional character while simultaneously hyping up a change like this because of the importance of such a change and how people could suddenly create meaningful connections if the characters were changed...which is just asinine.
 
When changing skin colour is equivalent to changing your whole damn species lmao this thread keeps on giving!

Some of the arguments in this thread are just unbelievable to me.

tumblr_mt73v3odim1r9yp9do2_500.jpg


Just because a design is changed, improved or updated doesn't mean you can point to a character and say "HEY THEY CHANGE STUFF ABOUT THEM SO WHY DON'T THEY TURN HIM XYZ!?
Genderbending, whitewashing, racebending, I think all of that shit is dumb. Even moreso when I care about the character in question. And it has nothing to do with sexism or racism or whatever the fuck. It has all to do with Mickey Mouse being a mouse, and not a lion or a goose or an elephant.
 

Madame M

Banned
I believe my position is very clear, and you know exactly what I meant there. I can't help but feel that you're just making fun of my choice of words there. English is not my mother tongue. I try my best writing thse posts but I make mistakes.

I'll reply to your question regardless, and retract my accusation if that wasn't your intent.

Samus' skin color has no bearing on the story, the character or whatever, so there's no reason to change it. Mickey's character wouldn't suffer, or benefit, from being a different animal from a mouse either. Him being a mouse has no bearing on anything related to him. And so he should remain a mouse, because that's what he has always been.

No it wasn't your word choice, I understood the idea fine with the words you chose don't worry, I just don't think the conclusion follows from the reasoning because it at the same time accepts that Samus skin color is not important but yet If the developers were to change it that is somehow unacceptable.... makes no sense

I mean yeah, those experiences are experiences we've had with those characters. I mean the level design and sheer joy that Mario Galaxy brought when I first played it would be the same even if the game starred Sonic, but the experience wouldn't be the same. Also, unless you want to go the "space magic" route, changing Samus's race would actually make the experience of Super Metroid, that we experienced, none canon.

You can't have a character be canonically white and then suddenly just be black because potatoes.

Samus' DNA can merge with Chozo DNA, but Samus' DNA can't merge with some DNA that produces a little more melanin? Give me a break.
 

CazTGG

Member
But her character begins and ends with her appearance. It's the most important part of any Nintendo character, very few of which actually have much character.

The word you're actually looking for is "gender". The main reason why Samus being revealed to the player as a woman was so shocking wasn't just that it was unheard of to keep a main character's identity a secret until the end, it's because Samus' gender was a significant departure for both games made on the NES and the characters you played as. Most of the main protagonists of the time (see: Mega Man, Link, Mario, Simon Belmont) were men while women characters tended to play a supporting roll (see: Roll) or were your typical damsel in distress, with very few women protagonists to be found during the era. What's more, marketing for the NES was largely aimed at a young male demographic that helped contribute to the boys-only club gaming was stuck in until the past decade or so. Given that context, one can see it not only as a brilliant twist, but also a surprisingly progressive and challenging creative decision, as it pushed against the norms of the industry where male was and still is largely the default by saying that you could have a tough, no nonsense protagonist be a woman. As a subversion, its effectiveness lied in the player's expectations due to their belief that the character of Samus was male because male was and, by and large, still remains the default for the main protagonist in the medium.

None of this, as you may have noticed, has anything to do with her being white. In fact, i'd argue that if there was any character where a reboot to alter one's race makes sense (aside from Link as a woman), Samus would be it because, well, let's be frank: When was the last time a black woman was the lead in a AAA-level video game? While the representation of women has improved over the years, the default for said representation largely mirrors that of the NES, with most women in AAA games being white, to the point where it feels like a default state. If there was a Metroid reboot with a black Samus and it was done correctly, it could make for a powerful message about how many great games and stories there are to be told about woman of color.
 

rex

Member
You don't actually need a "character study" for the exercise to have broad merit. Representation of minorities in roles of all sorts of criminally low, far below even the percentage they make up within society itself. Just as they deserve representations which do go in depth into the black existence within society, they also deserve characters for which being black just is justification enough, where they get to act as a hero for children and teenagers in minority groups and let their imagination run wild with nothing more than the fact that the space hero looks like them.

Again there is no actual impact of any serious consequence for those who are just mad 'cause they grew up with the character, versus the very real positive impact integrating such characters into the social fabric of pop culture icons can potentially have - as long as the creator of the vision are themselves OK with it, as they obviously would be in this case.

But Nintendo is not ok with it. That's the whole point of this thread isn't it? To generate pressure on a reluctant Nintendo and force them into increasing representation?

I'm not familiar with why so many Japanese designed characters have white appearances, but it certainly seems to be Japan's natural inclination to make at least a significant portion of their characters that way. And obviously that holds true for white majority countries.

Are you really going to attempt to browbeat a company into going against what comes to naturally to them, while simultaneously pretending to be concerned about what's okay with them?


The statistical likelihood of Nintendo actually doing this is not actually the point of this thread or this discussion, is it? The broad implications of a developer making a choice like this about a beloved mascot/icon is itself worth discussion, and is doubly so clear after we see how thoroughly unprepared many are for it even when they admit they can come up with no viable reasons to complain outside of selfish ones.

It is a thought experiment of the sort that has value on its own. No one here is arguing that Nintendo is likely to do this.

Who cares if the reasons are selfish?

You're proposing taking away a character that people like, while telling them they shouldn't actually care, all so they can be dragooned into a cause whose eventual success, and even benefits, are unclear, as you admit.

Doing so would be highly annoying, to say the least.

That's the personal perspective. From a broader standpoint what you would do is take away a common cultural reference. You want to unmoor people from a positive connection that we shared together thru that character. And I don't think you or anyone has the right to do that.

The need for more representation in media does not justify taking things away, that already exist, and belong to everyone. You want to take away symbols with meaning to people and then repackage them in the laziest possible way.

I think that, is wrong, my friend.
 

rex

Member
How do you know that?

I don't know it for sure. I'm drawing a reasonable conclusion based on the racial makeup of Nintendo's character roster.

Obviously, I don't think Nintendo is against black characters on principle. But it does not appear to be their first instinct to make characters black.

Hence, the thread and others like it. They're designed to create pressure to force on Nintendo what does not come naturally to them.

Am i really off base on that?
 

Madame M

Banned
I don't know it for sure. I'm drawing a reasonable conclusion based on the racial makeup of Nintendo's character roster.

Obviously, I don't think Nintendo is against black characters on principle. But it does not appear to be their first instinct to make characters black.

Hence, the thread and others like it. They're designed to create pressure to force on Nintendo what does not come naturally to them.

Am i really off base on that?

I guess you'll have to ask OP to find out if it were designed to do that, but if so I'll hate to break it to OP because Nintendo doesn't give a flying fuck what anyone on NeoGAF thinks
 
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