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I disagree with "gameplay > story"

enigmatic_alex44

Whenever a game uses "middleware," I expect mediocrity. Just see how poor TLOU looks.
I don't agree with the posts saying Bayonetta has a poor story. I LOVED the 2 Bayonetta games, my favorite action games of all time and I see the stories as being purposefully over the top and very campy. Plus it stars one of the strongest females in gaming in a genre dominated by men. I adore her design and her characterization.

most of my favorite games are story driven
bioshock, FFX, The Last of Us xenogears, xenoblade, xenosaga, Mass Effect, FF12, Metal gear solid 1,2,3,

I think story matters alot, personally I lose interest in a game if the story doesn't interest me. I think you'd have to be blind not to notice the trend of story mattering more and more as well. Why do you think games like Bioshock, THe Last of Us and Uncharted get GOTY awards. the gameplay is fine but it's the story that makes them stand out from the rest.

I'm in love with this post haha. I own every game you listed, and each of them is amazing imo.
 

QaaQer

Member
I don't agree with gameplay > story, or the reverse. I think different games have different things to offer. The Ace Attorney series is my #1 favorite series, and as my avatar might suggest, I love Danganronpa too. But I can also appreciate Mario, Monster Hunter, and plenty of other types of games.

I don't think it needs to be a competition. I thrive off of the variety of games that I'm able to play.

.

I think the problem is that we call them videogames, when really interactive entertainment is a much better descriptor and more inclusive (that's what the industry refers to its products as). Yes, some are almost pure games like dota2, but others are almost pure story like Dear Esther. People tend to get hung up on the word game and look down on story vgames.
 

Jigorath

Banned
Depends on the game I suppose. Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines has some very tedious and uninspired gameplay, especially in the second half, but the writing is so strong that I consider it one of the best RPGs ever made.
 
I'm a huge proponent of story in games, but at the same time, it totally depends on the individual title for me.

Ace Attorney, Zero Escape, DanganRonpa & Xenosaga are some of my favorites series, so I'm totally with you there. But I also totally loved Fantasy Life, and I think the cutesy laid back vibe of that game works. But you're 100% right about Sticker Star. That game was a huge disappointment on many levels, and the gutting of the story/characters definitely is chief among them.

There's games that I love that have absolutely abysmal storylines, but I enjoy them for other reasons. Then there are games with amazing stories that are wrapped in horrible gameplay, but I can find the merit in those too. Obviously having strong gameplay and story content would be ideal, but as long as one of those two aspects has enough to offer me, then I can see past the failings of the other part.
 

Nimby

Banned
Story complements gameplay. I'll completely forget about any story elements given the gameplay is satisfying and addicting. I won't turn away from a nice story though, just isn't needed for me.
 

autoduelist

Member
That quote has zero relevance today. Games have been getting progressively more cinematic and story driven since Metal Gear Solid. And lets not pretend the voice acting and writing hasn't improved. Final Fantasy 12, Soul Reaver 2 have brilliant voice work and script. and these are games from the ps2 era.

And I can still enjoy those games with my volume off and skipping every cutscene (or clicking through them if skipping isn't an option).

Stories are... additive to games. That is, they can add to games, certainly. But games are games. The cinematics/cutscenes/dialogs just glue together a game, and could be replaced by a menu if necessary. In an alternate universe, for example, a game like FF Tactics could just be a series of battles w/o any story whatsoever and many people would still play it.

VLR, an example given earlier, is a selection of room escape puzzles linked together by story. You could give me a simple menu to pick my room escape puzzle from, and I'd like the game 100x more. You could give the OP just the story navigation system, without the puzzles, and he'd enjoy it.

At the end of the day, I'd be playing a game, and he'd be reading a multi-layered/pathed book.
 

JimboJones

Member
As a general rule I guess I'd be a gameplay over story kinda person but it all depends, a good story and characters can really enhance a rpg and at the same time a really obnoxiously bad story like kingdom hearts can almost drive me away from the decent gameplay it has going for it.
 
i play video games to play, if i wanted some intricate story i would read a book or watch a good movie/show.


not saying a good story doesn't make it more enjoyable though.
 
Chess don't need no freakin' story.
Cards don't need no freakin' story.
Mahjong don't need no freakin' story.
Sports don't need no freakin' story.

Oh really?

You don't think more people are engaged into a chess game when it is the rivalry between Deep Blue and Kasparov?
Or a high stakes poker match with the top poker players in the world?

And... SPORTS? are you kidding me? Sports writes stories ALL THE TIME!
 

Dark_castle

Junior Member
Good story/writing is only needed for RPG and Visual Novel. Pretty much everything else will work fine with strong gameplay. Nintendo games proven this fact.
 
I think the phrase "gameplay > story" is a false, yet well intentioned saying.

It's more about what each individual game sets out to do and if it does it consistently well or not.

The premise of most mario games is to save a beloved princess from a cartoony dragon beast. It's up to our portly Italian plumber. It's not setting out to establish a good story. It's intentionally silly. Do the story and gameplay use the established material well? Heck yeah!

The Last of Us set up an emotionally charged compelling plot and world with life like characters. Did it succeed in story and gameplay for the most part? Heck yeah!

It's true that overall you will get less story from most games because that is how they are designed. You shouldn't be troubled by a lack of something that never tried to be there in the first place.
 

Hexa

Member
As a huge fan of visual novels, story will ALWAYS trump gameplay for me. Unless the gameplay is DIFFICULT and prevents me from getting to more story, i will slog through whatever i need to to see story I enjoy.

I enjoy good gameplay too of course, but I am just more interested in characters and story when it comes to my entertainment.

I agree with this.

Story > Gameplay almost always.
Though I use the term story pretty broadly. Even if the plot itself is pretty crappy if it has good characters or atmosphere that's fine as well.
 
well there's that old John Carmack quote:



...but I guess that's from a very different time (pre DOOM) so how relevent is it today now that the landscape has changed so much?

in some ways I think he's right, especially as a lot of games are written on about the same level as a porno, except instead of sex it's violence, but the rare game with a strong narrative can be awesome.

I think stuff like Phoenix Wright is in it's own category, really. Like something like Kentucky Route Zero or classic lucasarts games, where story is the draw card.

for action games I think it's much less important. I generally think gameplay first, story dressings later.

Good point and there's nothing wrong with Doom having a simple story.
Again, Doom echoed what id wanted to create back then and now the expectation for Doom is to jump in and shoot the absolute shit out of everything, because we know the motivations for the gameplay.

I liked 3 but it was frustrating to wade through cutscene (in all its forms) after cutscene just to get to the gameplay when we KNOW in the first two it was:

1. Start the game
2. Kill everything and stay alive.

There's no reason to say a totally different studio could create a new shooter ip which a marine is stranded on a moon and goes to hell, coincidentally, and go and introduce a whole number of sub plots that explain the context of the game and have it work or not work.

But that goes into a whole conversation of series expectations.
 

Alx

Member
Stories are... additive to games. That is, they can add to games, certainly. But games are games.

Yep in the end it's that simple. Remove the story from a game, you still have a game. Remove the gameplay from a game, you get a movie. Gameplay is what defines games.
 

Feep

Banned
I don't agree with gameplay > story, or the reverse. I think different games have different things to offer. The Ace Attorney series is my #1 favorite series, and as my avatar might suggest, I love Danganronpa too. But I can also appreciate Mario, Monster Hunter, and plenty of other types of games.

I don't think it needs to be a competition. I thrive off of the variety of games that I'm able to play.
And we're done here. It's ludicrous to say anything different on the matter, IMO.
 

Despera

Banned
"gameplay > story" doesn't necessarily denote that the latter is unimportant in some cases. It's just that most of the time you don't really need much of a story to enjoy a game.

To The Moon was a game that barely had any gameplay, and what it had of it was very basic. However, it was an enjoyable experience overall due to the quality of its storytelling.

So in the end it really depends on the type of game, but for most genres a good story can't make up for bad gameplay.
 

Floridian

Member
Oh really?

You don't think more people are engaged into a chess game when it is the rivalry between Deep Blue and Kasparov?
Or a high stakes poker match with the top poker players in the world?

And... SPORTS? are you kidding me? Sports writes stories ALL THE TIME!

Off-topic but what would wrestling shows be without story? lol. I don't remember watching them just to see them make physical contact with each other.
 
A great story can make me tolerate mediocre gameplay but a bad story will drive me away from a game much faster, even if it has great gameplay.

Birth by Sleep is one of those games.
 
I don't agree with the posts saying Bayonetta has a poor story. I LOVED the 2 Bayonetta games, my favorite action games of all time and I see the stories as being purposefully over the top and very campy. Plus it stars one of the strongest females in gaming in a genre dominated by men. I adore her design and her characterization.



I'm in love with this post haha. I own every game you listed, and each of them is amazing imo.

I do disagree with the first having a good story (or maybe I'm just getting my words confused with memorable) but total disclaimer, that's absolutely my opinion, I'm not saying that as fact. Some people DID enjoy the first's story.
I DO agree with enjoying the campy as hell atmosphere, it was such a great vibe.
2's story however, I thought was actually pretty entertaining and memorable.
 

krizzx

Junior Member
Its a circumstantial thing depending on the focus of the game. But regardless of which one of those two are ahead:

Gameplay
>
Graphics
>
Story

Bah, it won't hold the formatting. I was pointing out that both gameplay and story trump graphics.
 

neohwa

Junior Member
Well since I'm playing a game so gameplay would be >>>>>>>>> story and characters.

I would watch a movie or read a book instead if I want to see good story anyway.
 

Hubbl3

Unconfirmed Member
For me gameplay and story make a game appealing to me. It's not just one over the other. With that said:

gameplay and story > graphics
 
I do believe a good story can add to a game but gameplay is what is most important to me. A bad story doesn't necessarily turn me away if the gameplay is good (I play a lot of fighters and action games and most of them have a plot thin enough to fit inside a fortune cookie), but bad gameplay with a good story has turned me away from some games because it was tiresome to play.
 

Seanspeed

Banned
Gameplay ALWAYS trumps story for me. I could care less about a story in a game. If I want a good story, I'll go watch a movie. When I play a game, I need good gameplay. It's as simple as that.
First post nails it for me.

I feel bad for anyone who plays video games for their stories. I do hope that changes in the future. I'm not against the idea of playing a video game for the story. I just think that video game stories are horrid 99% of the time.
 

javadoze

Member
Gameplay > Story

I still believe in this. However, when a game starts to tout its story as something more important than the gameplay, it better be good.
 

Nachos

Member
They both have their place as they are now, but I vastly prefer gameplay. I probably wouldn't give a game a pass for story at the expense of good gameplay; I'd just YouTube the story, at which point, there probably wouldn't be anything lost in the transition to becoming a super-long movie.

However, I am really curious in games increasingly leveraging their unique qualities and allowances for the audience to merge the two. Game stories are largely bunk, so I'd much rather get a good story from a less fledgling medium like books or film, as people operating there will already have a good sense of what works for their medium and what doesn't. As games develop, though, I'm sure story and gameplay will get married more and more with less segregation, to the point where a lot of games stop relying on non-interactive cinematics.

I'm just waiting for the game equivalent of the printing press/camcorder/cell phone camera, so that the tools to make more nuanced games is more-readily to and incentive for the masses, even if most will be regarded as disposable by audience and creator. The tools are there to an extent and are more welcoming than ever, but the incentive isn't just yet.
 

ITA84

Member
The more technology advances, the less excuse there is for poor stories in games.

What does technology have to do with quality of writing?! I mean, technology might help a bit in the creative process, but a lot less so than in most other artistic efforts, at least nowadays. I'm pretty sure having a good story and good direction in a videogame takes about as much effort as it did 20 years ago: if anything, it's the fact that videogames are much more popular today (thus attracting bigger budgets and in turn better talents all around) that makes excuses for poor story less effective.

About comparing gameplay to story, I think this way: let's say there's a visual novel with a really good story, but the gameplay mechanics get in the player's way (choices presented to the player at the wrong time or in a wrong way, cumbersome save system that forces you to replay large section without skipping, awkward choice system, lack of marks on choices you've already made, etc.). Let me then ask you this: is the game really good? Or is just the story really good? Wouldn't you have enjoyed the story more if it were told through a different, better medium, or simply a better interface?

Bad gameplay doesn't spoil a good story, but it can spoil the game as a whole, just like bad film editing can hurt a movie with great story and direction.
 
I think it's ignorant to say "If I wanted a story I'd watch or read x". There's no basis for which one can quantify a persons enjoyment of a story in which a person has agency over events vs one where the person doesn't.

They are different mediums. The very notion of "gameplay" need not even be an element in interactive mediums at all.

And I understand where OP is coming from. I'm playing DA:I because I enjoy the immersion and agency I have over this vibrant and interactive world. The gameplay elements are entertaining, but in a vacuum wouldn't sustain me on any level.

In terms of having an overall preference one way or another...*shrug*, it's not really an easy answer.

But absolutely, a preference for story over "gameplay" is a valid opinion to have.

And the word "story" is a terrible term to use as well in some ways by the way. The "stories" of some of the greatest movies of all time can be pretty much dreck, but the experience they provide for a number of reasons make them what they are. It can be the same for games.
 

Dark_castle

Junior Member
I don't agree with the posts saying Bayonetta has a poor story. I LOVED the 2 Bayonetta games, my favorite action games of all time and I see the stories as being purposefully over the top and very campy. Plus it stars one of the strongest females in gaming in a genre dominated by men. I adore her design and her characterization.

You like the Bayonetta games because they are fun to play, not because they have award winning story.
 
This sounds like an issue that will vary from individual to individual, not to mention one's expectations of a particular genre.

Personally, I'm open to both styles so long as they are done well. I don't need a great story if the gameplay is deep in the sense that it gives me plenty of freedom to learn and experiment with a multitude of mechanics -- like Ninja Gaiden Black or Divinity: Original Sin. Likewise, I'm okay if gameplay elements are minimal or easy to master if the story captivates me -- like Folklore, NieR, or The Longest Journey.

Of course, the ideal game for me is one where both the narrative and the gameplay are equally engaging. For last generation, I can name Dark Souls, Yakuza 4, and The Witcher 2 among my favourites of this category.
 

GnawtyDog

Banned
I think it's a balance that developers try to achieve. Prefering either/or is subjective.
I think devs look at it as a balance issue. Ex: How can we tell a good story without gameplay getting in the way and vice versa, how can we make good gameplay without the story getting in the way. In short, how can we mesh both in a way that makes sense that doesn't detract from either.

Over the last 10-15 years there has been a revolution in gaming where technology has allowed for the mesh of gameplay and story like never before. From hits like Shadow of the Colossus, to Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare, Halo 1-3, Uncharted 1-3, these are all story driven games with good gameplay. Mind you some sway a bit more to the side of gameplay while others a bit more to the side of "story" (depending on who you ask, subjective) but I think we can all agree that those games have at least achieved a balance between the two that we hardly ever saw in generations prior. The "death" of platformers in general, with few exceptions, came about market saturation and little to no innovation. If you were a 90s kid you knew platformers were worse, much worse than the FPS copy and paste saturation that we have today. The popularity of FPS like COD and Halo, TPS like Uncharted and TLOU all stem from that change in philosophy, enabled by tech.

I think as a general rule of thumb for a selection of genre's, balance is what most devs strive for. Some succeed better than others. If you take a look at open-world games like GTA 5, Rockstar has done a tremendous job, through iteration after iteration to mesh a gameplay centric genre with good story. They have gotten much, much better at story telling than at innovation with gameplay.
 

sn00zer

Member
Depends on the game. Luckily there are more varied interpretations of what a videogame is in today's scene and how gameplay, story, and art are balanced. Loved Super Meat Boy and DMC4, but also loved Unfinished Swan and The Wolf Among Us. There are room for all types of games and it isnt enough to say gameplay is the end all e all of what makes a good game.
 
First post nails it for me.

I feel bad for anyone who plays video games for their stories.

Glad you agree. :) I've never understood why people care so much about stories in games. Games are first and foremost, a game. Having a story is nice, I guess, but I don't play games for their stories. I play games because I play them for their gameplay.
 
Couldn't disagree more.

Chess don't need no freakin' story.
Cards don't need no freakin' story.
Mahjong don't need no freakin' story.
Sports don't need no freakin' story.

Sure they do. That's why every broadcast of any of these includes storytelling and a focus of the competitors. This is a poor example.
 

Infinite

Member
I think it's silly when people separate the two. A game's story is apart of that game's feedback in the same way when you press the jump button you see on screen an animation of your avatar jumping.
 
I'd just YouTube the story, at which point, there probably wouldn't be anything lost in the transition to becoming a super-long movie.

I can think of at least two instances where this isn't true:

1: Horror games, in which the experience of being an active participant is a huge part of the buy-in for what the story is trying to evoke

and

2. Reactive games (Many western RPGs, Telltale stuff, etc.) where your input actually affects aspects of the story (albeit usually in fairly minor ways).
 
It's an entertainment medium and different people find different things entertaining.

There's also a huge variety in what people consider a 'good story'. In most media there's often a disconnect between how well written fiction is considered to be by critics and connoisseurs and the size of it's audience.

Personally, I love a 'good' narrative and characters as much as I love 'good' gameplay, so I loved the Walking dead games despite extremely poor gameplay, and Mario 3D World despite it's story being just crap.

Then there's the ideal, games that can marry both narrative and gameplay together perfectly, stuff like Bayonetta that's got as ridiculously over the top writing as it does gameplay, which is a perfect storm of camp extremity on one end, and games Like TLOU and ME2 that weave their plots, characters and gameplay together perfectly to bring about an experience unsurpassed in any other medium on the other.

Really I think there's a sense of snobbery over narrative amongst game enthusiast, partially down to nostalgia, where for years most games were considered to have little to no gameplay whatsoever, and because that was many people's formative experiences, they now think those games were a better, more pure experience for it.

This of course ignores the fact that adventure games and such like were some of the first games ever made, and that by modern standards most of that old 'pure' gameplay is utter, unplayable wank.

It doesn't help that Nintendo Devs are of a like mind on story either. It adds a lot of strength to people's convictions when guys like Miyamoto keep saying stupid things along the lines of 'games not having anything to learn from movies' and the what have you.

Ultimately though, it comes down to taste. Some people just want the pure gameplay experience of games like Candy Crush, others just want an interactive story. Most people fall somewhere in between.

Personally I just want a greater variety of stories. Where's the tense psychological thrillers, the whacky comedy crime capers, or hell, even the soap operas? There's so much you could do with narrative in games that would be impossible anywhere else, yet 99% of the time it just boils down to an action and/or adventure B movie plot.

Which also doesn't help with people thinking gameplay is more important than story either. It's easy to dismiss something as inferior wen it so often is inferior.
 

autoduelist

Member
I think it's ignorant to say "If I wanted a story I'd watch or read x". There's no basis for which one can quantify a persons enjoyment of a story in which a person has agency over events vs one where the person doesn't.

It's ignorant for me to say I'd rather read a book for story? How so? It's my opinion, and it's a perfectly justified one given the breadth of literature vs. the majority of 'plots' games have. It in no way says what other people can or can't enjoy, just me. Zero ignorance involved - I am perfectly capable of quantifying my own enjoyment of said mediums. I read books all the time. Game plots bore the living daylights out of me 99.9% of the time. Just get me to the next gameplay segment, please, that's why I decided to play a game in the first place.
 

petran79

Banned
what is interesting though is how point and click adventure games got so much simple over the years so that it is impossible to die. Even Monkey Island 1 made a parody of this.
Yet in action games the possibility of death, though greatly reduced with regenerating health, is still there.
 

jetsetrez

Member
I think story can be a very important part of a game, and sometimes the story is more compelling than the gameplay or makes it worth slogging through shitty gameplay, but gameplay is the unique quality and tool of the medium.
 

Nohar

Member
Both are important. And if one is weak, it can makes the whole game bad despite its qualities.

In games in which the story has little to no importance and which rely entirely in gameplay, it is not a problem, since you are playing the game for the gameplay, not the story.

In games in which the story is the main selling point or should be an interesting part of the game, if said story turns out to be badly-written, you may not want to continue playing, despite the gameplay being good (I'm looking at you Star Ocean 4). This is the unwritten rule of many (J)RPG: they must have a good story if they want you to continue playing.
On the other hand, you have games with an interesting story but less than stellar if not outright bad gameplay (Magna Carta was such a mess...). In that case, you will simply stop to "play" because the game becomes a chore, and you are honestly feeling like you are wasting your time playing something which is just not enjoyable.

So, I don't believe that Story > Gameplay, nor that Gameplay > Story. However, with games in which the story is not important in the first place, the Gameplay is far enough. Heck, in some case the Gameplay will be enough to make you continue playing a game with a poor plot (for games which are supposed to have a decent plot), but those are rare.

In short: Story = Gameplay, unless Story is not relevant in the first place, in that case Gameplay trumps all.
 

Dark_castle

Junior Member
What does technology have to do with good stories?

It does. Now as we enter modern gaming, the need for voice acting and editing became a necessity, meaning the developer would have to either got them right very early in production or else going back to edit the script after all the recording has been done will add extra development time and cost.

So, in fact, better technology might result in weaker story/writing, although of course it can be alleviated if a lot of effort are placed on story than gameplay, such as the older cRPG and VN games.
 
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