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I don't understand healers (OP mains Hanzo)

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Dylan

Member
Fucking mandatory.

I think the OP is mostly wrong, but I do think that the classic Healer/Heavy/Assault/Sniper team dynamic is a bit tired. Would be nice to see some team-based games switch it up a bit more. Overwatch is creative but not super far off from the bog standard.
 

LordKasual

Banned
Fucking mandatory.

I think the OP is mostly wrong, but I do think that the classic Healer/Heavy/Assault/Sniper team dynamic is a bit tired. Would be nice to see some team-based games switch it up a bit more. Overwatch is creative but not super far off from the bog standard.

I think the key here is to not create characters that only can heal you. Or less likely, just give every character some way to heal themselves.
 
Tales games and the Xenoblade's have been doing a good job dodging the idea of a dedicated healer. Which is great, spares a spot and lets you wreck things one character faster.

Shulk/Dunban/Reyn for life.

Once I figured out that you didn't actually need a healer in my second playthrough I started experimenting with parties that didn't include Sharla. I controlled Dunban and mostly dodge tanked everything. It was really fun since you have no dedicated healer to back you up so you have to survive without one.

Battles were a lot more fun with 3 offensive/tank characters imo.

Thing is for plenty of games that have healers, it's difficult to find ones that have mechanics beyond the basic healbot.

I'm of the opinion that any healing class/job/whatever should be as mechanically complex as the damage dealers.

In Overwatch I usually play Zen or Ana when healing because they aren't your typical healbot. I play Lucio to a lesser extent.
 

Holundrian

Unconfirmed Member
There are games where the designers believe this and those games are mechanically far less interesting than its counterpart.

It's all in the balance really of course if you're not good at balance you might want to not put heals into your game.
 

Dylan

Member
I think the key here is to not create characters that only can heal you. Or less likely, just give every character some way to heal themselves.

I think the funnest healer class in recent memory was Combat Girl from SMNC.

Her job was basically to set up mini-turret traps and then back up to heal the team while waiting for the enemy to fall into your trap and then activate fast-firing on your turrets.

And then of course there is the Team Fortress Classic Medic who could conk-jump across the map and infect the other team.
 

daveo42

Banned
Pure damage dealers is bad game design.

The Holy Trinity is actually Tank, Healer, and Support. But good Support is hard to design so, fuck it, let's just have them deal a shitload of damage instead of balancing crowd control, buffing and de-buffing within the class system.

What usually happens is support it relegated to a mix of tank and healer, with more focus on the healer for buffs, debuffs, and random status affects. Better systems at least dump a fair amount of debuffs and other support roles on DD (like managing hate). Depending on the game, but secondary roles of healers can easily become primary roles as well if the party is able to mitigate damage.

I main'd WHM in FFXI during the early days of the game (pre-Chains) and a good group meant being able to keep the tank near 75% while clearing debuffs, rotating haste on everyone, and having enough MP to hit chain 5 in a standard group without Refresh. Even burst Holy. Plus, if shit went wrong, you knew what to do and when to get your party out of a serious bind. Man...I really miss FFXI.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Healing is not easy. It's frequently one of the most stressful roles in any team based game, because you're not only fighting the opponent, you're also fighting your teammates' stupidity.

That said, it is bad design. Every game with easy healing is made worse by it.

FUCK DA TRINITY
 

Spladam

Member
OP needs to heal his heart

So basically every game dev that implements a healer class is just bad at designing games...but you know better?

Armchair developer 101.

You making this thread is bad thread design.
You guys make me laugh.
I think OP is simply salty because they don't know how to play healers.

Or maybe he's salty because his healers know he isn't worth shit and prioritize heals on other players who actually appreciate them and put in work. :)

Ouch. I believe the word we're looking for is "butthurt".
 

Puru

Member
Healing is fine but shouldn't be spammable, it should be a luxury to prevent big mistakes now and then and ultimately the less defining part of the support class/character. I would rather see more well timed shields in MMO or whatever than heal spam.
Zarya or Reinhardt in ow are actually more fun as "support" characters than the healers.
 

Mawile

Banned
Healer in FFXI was always fun so I disagree. Have to constantly manage MP in long engaging fights without native MP restore like FFXIV made it real challenging at endgame. Once you were out of MP, you were out outside of convert later on (which was a little risky to do at times). You had to use so many moves for removing status effects, and had to place yourself in a good spot while also being preemptive with your healing cast times since people are squishy.

I do enjoy Healer in FFXIV, but I think in terms of pure healing and raw challenge, Healer is the best with FFXI.
 

LowParry

Member
I don't think the OP understands a healer's role in...anything really. You have zero idea.

I still believe this is one of THE best healers of any game.

5gVsA4Y.jpg
 

Laiza

Member
I actually think PSO2 does this balance the best.

Everyone has a large number of potions at hand, but difficult enough content can see you running out eventually, especially if you're bad at timing your dodging and blocking. Plus, there's a huge opportunity cost to sitting in one place sipping down a trimate (especially if you're solo - you usually lose most of the HP you just restored).

Hence, healers are not necessary but they are still very nice to have. Better yet, all of the classes that cast heals cast them as a secondary concern - they're still primarily damage dealers capable of taking down enemies with everyone else (though techers are less so, as they make up the support specialist class). It's not the one thing they're good at and expected to be doing all the time, and it feels damn good that way. It's like if you got to play black mage and white mage in one character in a Final Fantasy game.

Dragon's Dogma Online also handles this an interesting way, as healers also reveal enemy weak points, and they can only heal "grey" damage - any damage beyond that is permanent unless healed with healing potions or rested off at an inn. If you're good enough, you can ultimately succeed even without a healer at all, but a healer is, of course, very nice to have and can help speed up big boss encounters very handily.

What I DON'T like is the 100% dependency on healers we see in games like FFXIV and other old-timey tab targeting MMOs. Make one element of the party too damn important and the game becomes rigid in how heavily structured it is. I didn't realize just how much I appreciated having some freedom until I got to experience what partying is like when you can have any party composition you want and still succeed at completing content. It's liberating, is what I'm saying. I really enjoy these types of games now. I hope that this is the direction we continue to head in for the foreseeable future.
 

888

Member
Healers are the most important part of a team and it's the rest of the team's sole duty to protect them. Mercy main btw.

Teams live and die by their healers. A weak healer is pretty much game over in something like overwatch.

So yeah, have to disagree. I have over 100 hours of healing in Overwatch.

Also years of healing and tanking in wow. If anything I find dps boring and noob friendly as you put it.
 

enoki

Member
To those saying I'm a sore damage dealer: I'm a healer main who sees how advantaged this class is, lol.

I mean this as an honest question: what makes healing easy for you?

EDIT: I think explaining your stance better might take some of the heat off this debate.
 

Kevdo

Member
I get that at face value, a lot of healing play is pretty simple on the technical side. Cast heal, or left click Mercy, Q Soraka, etc. The healing itself is not hard to do, but that's not the point.

Being a good healer and giving your team the support it needs requires some pretty thorough awareness and good game sense. You're not a good healer because you can hold left click, you're a good healer because at any given moment you can manage an entire team taking damage, being aware of who needs it, where you need to be, how to avoid the enemy because sure as hell they're trying to focus you down (in a PVP game, at least). Playing as a healer may be noob-friendly, but performing well as a healer is most definitely not. This is coming from a mostly support main in both Overwatch and LoL, for what it's worth.

I also don't understand the perspective of "if you get to high mmr as a healer you're stuck playing healer forever". For one, that's...pretty much true as any class. If you're good DPS, you won't be a good healer, or tank, or anything else, so switching roles after getting good at one is going to leave you floundering at first, whether you were healer or not. Secondly, if you want to switch classes, why on earth would you jump straight into ranked/competitive/whatever? Why not practice vs bots, or quickplay, or something equivalent first?

All of this really doesn't make any sense to me :/
 

Kito

Member
Make [healers] of the party too damn important and the game becomes rigid in how heavily structured it is. I didn't realize just how much I appreciated having some freedom until I got to experience what partying is like when you can have any party composition you want and still succeed at completing content. It's liberating, is what I'm saying. I really enjoy these types of games now.

+1

A weak healer is pretty much game over in something like overwatch.

Thus proving my point...

OP probably lost to Zenyatta or Mercy one or one .

I'm a Mercy main that regularly solo kills in 1v2s.
 

Kent

Member
Healers aren't bad design - it's just very easy to make awful healer gameplay.

That is to say, consider the "holy trinity" in contemporary RPGs: Tanks, Damage-Dealers and Healers.

Tanks can be made interesting by giving decisive options for dealing with incoming damage, or otherwise providing your team with breathing room.

Damage-Dealers can be made interesting by giving them a lot of variables to control to put out the most damage - and making enemies give them things they have to deal with to make engagements go smoothly (like abilities to interrupt, or buffs to remove).

Healers are at their worst when they're just "healing" though. Healing is important, because people make mistakes, and the nature of RPGs means that some damage is guaranteed (such as to the tank), and that's fine. However, in the same sense that you could make tanks able to have decisive, instantly-powerful damage mitigation tools to manage, you can do the same with healers: A very-temporary-but-potent barrier to absorb damage on someone is a common good example.

There's a running theme throughout all of these though: Reward players for optimization, reward them for being proactive, and reward them for leveraging their situational skills well... And make sure you actually provide opportunities for these to happen.

If you'd like to see a couple games with legitimately good design for healers, look at Final Fantasy XIV and WildStar.

In the case of FFXIV, you have Scholars, who have the lowest healing potential of any healer - but have the greatest means of mitigating damage out of any of them: Their primary skill is dropping a big damage-absorption barrier on someone, they can drop smaller barriers on the whole group, they can buff an ally to debuff the damage of enemies that hit them, they can directly debuff two thirds of an enemy's stats in one go, they can spread their barriers around (as well as their reflective debuff), they can place fields down that reduce damage taken in them or slow enemies in them, and they have a pet fairy that's dropping small heals on people constantly as need be, and has its own myriad other support functions it can do (depending on which type you have summoned).

All of this, used well, minimizes damage taken by their team, and by extension, minimizes the time they have to spend recovering damage incurred by the team... Which makes them free to deal as much damage as they can - which is another key point about FFXIV's design: Tanks and healers are capable of putting out significant damage, given the opportunity - so encounters go by quicker by affording the healer breathing room, because it allows them to safely pitch in damage.

Astrologians are also pretty fantastic on the utility side, capable of doing some very similar things to varying degrees (some of which is subject to RNG, due to the card-drawing mechanic they have for buffs, which they get more and more means of leveraging those in their favor as they level up). White Mages have the least in the way of this sort of utility, while having the most raw healing potential (and raw damage potential, they just don't have much in the way of making time to use it).

With regards to WildStar: The interesting part about combat design in this game, is that basically every role has the same general combat loop. Everyone is very active, very frantic, dodging stuff left and right, manually aiming skills (no auto-attack here, or much in the way of "traditional" MMO tab-target abilities), stunning enemies (which, successfully interrupting a cast makes everyone do magnified damage while the enemy is stunned - a wonderfully-fun and rewarding design choice), and managing their resources in the fast-paced utter chaos that is combat. It's hectic, dynamic and very action-y for everyone, even healers... And it makes up for the fact that gameplay is mostly just making numbers go up on allies (because it's pretty much identical to the gameplay of making numbers go down on enemies - which is fun for all of the above reasons in the first place).

tl;dr: Healers are great if you make it so that being "the healer" is about more than just purely making numbers go up - just like how being a tank is great if it's more than just purely "being the one whose numbers go down" and how being a damage-dealer is great if it's more than just purely "making the enemy numbers go down.".
 

nikos

Member
Healer roles definitely are not easy or noob friendly. A bad healer can destroy an otherwise great team. A great healer can do the opposite. The healer is the backbone of its team.
 

tdwig

Neo Member
Healing is most certainly not bad design but I do think that healing can easily throw off a game's balance if not handled correctly.
 
Win or lose, it's easy to fulfil your purpose.

I don't like playing healers personally, but saying they're easy is flat-out wrong. They are typically some of the harder classes to play in any game. Good healers win games for their whole team, bad healers lose them.
 

rackham

Banned
Yeah what awful design to let players do something other than spam attacks. Shitty devs letting people
Do different things. /s
 

LordKasual

Banned
I exclusively play healers in Overwatch. Over 1000 hours on Ana, Zen and Mercy. Ended season 3 rank 3300.

Posters are saying the healer class is the most "essential" / "important", and that exactly right there is why I see them as bad game design, why there was a tank meta, why the best Overwatch team in the world is attributed its status because of their god Ana player Ryujehong.

You have a combined straight 41 days of playtime on 3 characters in overwatch????????????
 
I don't think the OP understands a healer's role in...anything really. You have zero idea.

I still believe this is one of THE best healers of any game.

5gVsA4Y.jpg

Scholar is the one of the only healer-type classes I've ever really liked in any MMO, and I've tried a bunch of them.
 

Kataploom

Gold Member
WTF? I'm having a hard time finding something that isn't wrong OP... It's by far the most fun role due to complexity in any game but the one with the most responsibility as well... Also, a good player has not to be a bullet sponge and try avoid as much damage as possible, healers use to have many limitations depending on class or the game..
 

jon bones

hot hot hanuman-on-man action
I don't think the OP understands a healer's role in...anything really. You have zero idea.

I still believe this is one of THE best healers of any game.

5gVsA4Y.jpg

SCH is such a great character to play. I really hope FFXIV makes it to Switch so I can resub and play in bed.
 

Skab

Member
Every game is consistent for the healer: heal damaged allies and stay as safe as possible. Win or lose, it's easy to fulfil your purpose. Healers may depend on damage dealers (dd) to win, but dd depend on healers to even function. Complex, algorithmic matchmaking (mm) systems can also force you into the healer class forever. When you try your hand at damage, mm does not know you are practicing damage. It expects you to do the job - a job you cannot do well.

Healers are only redeemed by their easy, noob-friendly gameplay that can make a game accessible to a wider audience.

This is why I am looking forward to leaving Overwatch for Splatoon 2 - no healer class and no mm memory. I can get to S+ and not be expected to use rollers forever, because there is no record of me using rollers.

But Overwatch's healers do damage too?
 
Nah fam. Healers are the backbone of the team

I don't completely agree with OP (though I usually don't have as much fun playing a healer) but something being necessary doesn't make it good design. It's like if someone said the "touch your bloodstain to get progress back" mechanic was bad design and you replied "nah fam, you wouldn't be able to level up as often."

Presumably they think the design that makes healers the backbone of a team should be changed.
 

greelay

Member
I feel like healers are great design and encourage a level of teamwork, or dependence on teammates, that none of the classes do.
 
OP also trying to rid themselves of healers in games. That's like turning your back on your mom.

I...what? I'm not exactly sure if your analogy works here.

Whatever the case, let me expand on my own point, which I believe is harmonious with that of the OP's. The problem with healers and healing is that it's a boring simplification of what a support class should be.

One of the reasons healers are always in the minority in MMOs is that its incredibly difficult to make the player feel powerful or cool as a healer. Like how many people honestly would rather be the person in the white dress and a staff, rather than the lady in the dragoon armor and cool spear, or the guy who beats things to death with his fists? While the player might feel good handling the mechanical difficulties of playing a healer well, that feeling rarely translates visually to the screen, where your character just waves her wand around and a bunch of green numbers appear over your friends' heads.

How much cooler would support characters be if you kept the depth and difficulty of healer style gameplay, but moved the focus to mitigation rather than healing? Take the controller class from City of Heroes; rather than healing, you are summoning cold storms to slow enemies down, freezing the ground to make enemies slip and be unable to attack and turning yourself into a walking tornado and running into enemies to knock them off course. You're still doing the same thing a healer would do; you're keeping your team alive, but you're doing it in a much more engaging manner. You still get the satisfaction of being the backbone that keeps the team together, but the game also allows you to feel powerful as an individual warrior, seperate from your team.
 
I don't agree with the OP's assertion, but it does bring up one design decision I'm considering with my own project - since I'm balancing characters more like a fighting game than a team-based game with hard counters, one equippable secondary ability is a healing beam ala The Medic or Mercy that can be equipped by any character, but with the caveat that it drains the energy meter that also is needed by other secondary abilities, which also doesn't recharge quickly, meaning constantly healing isn't an option, and you can't use it to heal yourself. In theory, this and other secondary ability options basically allows more flexible healing/support options while also ensuring that they don't dominate a player's game role and they have to be more strategic in how they use them in team-based scenarios, but are still effective enough that effective use of those abilities can shift the outcome of a fight and thus encourage teamwork.

It's an interesting idea that I'm hoping to see how it'll pan out.
 
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