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"I Need a New PC!" 2017 The Ryzing of Kaby Lake and NVMwhee!

X

Xyber

Member
Decided to finally learn how to setup Speedfan properly. Before I was only using the Asus AI Suite software to set fan curves for all fans in my case, only problem was that you could only control the speed based on CPU temps.

So when the CPU was under load during a video render all fans would ramp up and make it somewhat noisy. Now I have it so the radiator fans are controlled by CPU temps and the rest by GPU temps and now my fairly quiet PC has become really quiet under most circumstances.

Also noticed I could lower my AIO cooler pump speed down to 40% and maintain the same temps at idle but it gets rid of perhaps the most noticeable noise in my PC. Which, to be fair, wasn't really that loud at all (just a humming sound) but it's nice to eliminate that as well.
 
S

Stephen_drewz

Member
Thinking of pulling the trigger on the following parts;

Intel 7700K
Asus ROG Strix Z270F(mobo never been a major concern for me)
32gb Corsair DDR4 3200mhz
Samsung 500gb 960 EVO NVme M2 SSD

Will use my existing Asus GTX1080.

Pretty pricey but haven't upgraded anything other than my GPU in ~ 4 years now(Original 2011 Socket 4930k, 32gb 1600mhz DDR3). Should keep be going for a while. I wanted a Ryzen CPU since it's something new and fresh but given I will be using this 99% for gaming the 7700K seems like a better choice.
 
Garou

Garou

Member
Stephen_drewz said:
Thinking of pulling the trigger on the following parts;

Intel 7700K
Asus ROG Strix H270F(mobo never been a major concern for me)
32gb Corsair DDR4 3200mhz
Samsung 500gb 960 EVO NVme M2 SSD

Will use my existing Asus GTX1080.

Pretty pricey but haven't upgraded anything other than my GPU in ~ 4 years now(Original 2011 Socket 4930k, 32gb 1600mhz DDR3). Should keep be going for a while. I wanted a Ryzen CPU since it's something new and fresh but given I will be using this 99% for gaming the 7700K seems like a better choice.
Click to expand...

K-processor and H270 Motherboard don't match, H270 doesn't allow overclocking.
 
S

Stephen_drewz

Member
Garou said:
K-processor and H270 Motherboard don't match, H270 doesn't allow overclocking.
Click to expand...

Yep just noticed that, changed to Z270. I honestly probably wouldn't OC, the K is only $70 more then 7700 where I would be buying from(locally, Australia) so seems to make sense to get that instead.

Cheers.
 
C

catspit

Member
Looking to maybe build a cpu with a Ryzen 1600x.
Would a RX470 /w 4gb be fine if I am just getting a single GPU? I see that there is a 8gb version...
also.. which is considered to be the best bang for your buck MOBO for the ryzen chips?

I am planning to upgrade from: core 2 duo E8400 /w a Radeon HD 4850

I am not solid on the RX470.. if there is something better I should be looking at let me know as I just started to look at parts online today.
 
V

Vulcano's assistant

Banned
JCH! said:
I have a little question for you guys.

I just finished a build for my girlfriend (7700k + my old 980). I thought we would be able to transfer her Windows 10 licence from her old computer to the new one but apparently the copy of Windows 10 she had on her old PC is not eligible for transfer.

What is the best (meaning cheapest) way of getting a legit copy of W10 Pro?

There's no way my only option is paying 280€ for it, right? How reliable are those people selling keys on reddit (I assume they are some sort of grey market à la G2A)?
Click to expand...

Just built a computer for my dad last week for his birthday. He had the same problem, so he just went to ebay and bought a license for $9. Works perfectly.
 
K

Kadey

Mrs. Harvey
Don't think I can ever go back to air cooling. My system is so quiet. Maybe too quiet. And cool. I thought it was going to be a pain to set up but it was beyond easy.
 
Z

Zabojnik

Member
Kadey said:
Don't think I can ever go back to air cooling. My system is so quiet. Maybe too quiet. And cool. I thought it was going to be a pain to set up but it was beyond easy.
Click to expand...

Don't people usually choose to stay with air cooling precisely because of the quiet? Amongst other things, like reliability, zero maintenence (compared to custom loops at least) and peace of mind. I know I can't hear the fans (or anything) in my new build at idle / light loads or even when gaming. Granted, the Dark Rock Pro 3 is a pretty beastly cooler.
 
S

Sky Chief

Member
Captain N. Tenneal said:
I've been waiting for this, but unfortunately it looks like they removed the 5.25 bay on the back of the case in this version! I don't see why, considering now it just has the empty space there when it was such a neat, flexible option in the original, non-tempered glass version. Sigh. I want one of the Evolv lineup, but I need a dedicated optical drive. So frustrating.
Click to expand...

Have you looked at the Phanteks Enthoo Pro M Tempered Glass Edition?
 
K

Kyne

Member
Zabojnik said:
Don't people usually choose to stay with air cooling precisely because of the quiet? Amongst other things, like reliability, zero maintenence (compared to custom loops at least) and peace of mind. I know I can't hear the fans (or anything) in my new build at idle / light loads or even when gaming. Granted, the Dark Rock Pro 3 is a pretty beastly cooler.
Click to expand...

you can't really get quieter than water in tubes.
 
M

Mad Max

Member
lostsupper said:
If you didn't have a pump or static pressure fans blowing across radiators you'd be right.
Click to expand...

Neither of those are necessarily louder than a HDD or GPU cooler (under load) though. In the end noise production of your system will still depend on the loudest component: My wd reds which are much more noticable than my D5 or any of the 8 fans I'm running.
 
G

Genio88

Member
Guys wanna build a gaming PC for my little brother, gotta get the most affordable stuff in the market, still i want him to have better experience than on his old Xbox One, do you think with an AMD Athlon 860K, 4GB ram and GTX 1050 2GB it'll be able to play current game at 1080p, high settings and 30fps?
 
J

JonnyDBrit

Member
Genio88 said:
Guys wanna build a gaming PC for my little brother, gotta get the most affordable stuff in the market, still i want him to have better experience than on his old Xbox One, do you think with an AMD Athlon 860K, 4GB ram and GTX 1050 2GB it'll be able to play current game at 1080p, high settings and 30fps?
Click to expand...

Most big, current games set a minimum RAM requirement of 8 GB, so better to aim for that - it's what the main consoles that aren't Nintendo Switch have too.

The 1050 meanwhile should definitely be able tp 1080p at high settings at around 30 fps, maybe having to turn down things like shadow or foliage density.

The big uncertain then is the Athlon. If buying new, I'd recommend picking up a Pentium G4560 instead. Slightly more expensive yes, buy its the baseline of the current generation of CPUs, and would allow your brother some leeway.

Presuming you're in the US, you could seek out your local microcenter if you have one. See if maybe they've got a bundle on an older but more powerful CPU.

Plus well, a budget range would help.
 
G

Genio88

Member
JonnyDBrit said:
Most big, current games set a minimum RAM requirement of 8 GB, so better to aim for that - it's what the main consoles that aren't Nintendo Switch have too.

The 1050 meanwhile should definitely be able tp 1080p at high settings at around 30 fps, maybe having to turn down things like shadow or foliage density.

The big uncertain then is the Athlon. If buying new, I'd recommend picking up a Pentium G4560 instead. Slightly more expensive yes, buy its the baseline of the current generation of CPUs, and would allow your brother some leeway.

Presuming you're in the US, you could seek out your local microcenter if you have one. See if maybe they've got a bundle on an older but more powerful CPU.

Plus well, a budget range would help.
Click to expand...
Yes i know the G4560 would be better, but i'm not in the USA and here even though it costs about the same as the 860k, it would require a motherboard and ram which are too much expensive for my budget, i hope the 860k will do well enough
 
J

JonnyDBrit

Member
Genio88 said:
Yes i know the G4560 would be better, but i'm not in the USA and here even though it costs about the same as the 860k, it would require a motherboard and ram which are too much expensive for my budget, i hope the 860k will do well enough
Click to expand...

So what is your budget, and where are you at?
 
J

j0hnny_385

Member
Genio88 said:
Yes i know the G4560 would be better, but i'm not in the USA and here even though it costs about the same as the 860k, it would require a motherboard and ram which are too much expensive for my budget, i hope the 860k will do well enough
Click to expand...
If you're on a tight budget, look at the "Budget - solid starter" from the OP.
 
K

kennah

Member
If you dont want to over clock but still are getting a 7700k an h series board is fine. You'll still benefit from the 4.2 base clock even if you dont want to push the processor further.
 
L

LegionAgent

Member
Quick question: is Gigabyte Z170X Gaming 5 compatible with the Corsair Vengeance® LPX 16GB (2x8GB) DDR4 DRAM 2133MHz? I checked both list and they didn't match, but the list also states that they haven't verified every brand due to the market being so massive.
That's why I decided to ask if anyone here has experience with these and could direct me, because I'm really having a hard time deciding the RAM I want for my PC, since DDR4 has really become a compatibilty pain.
 
E

e90Mark

Member
LegionAgent said:
Quick question: is Gigabyte Z170X Gaming 5 compatible with the Corsair Vengeance® LPX 16GB (2x8GB) DDR4 DRAM 2133MHz? I checked both list and they didn't match, but the list also states that they haven't verified every brand due to the market being so massive.
That's why I decided to ask if anyone here has experience with these and could direct me, because I'm really having a hard time deciding the RAM I want for my PC, since DDR4 has really become a compatibilty pain.
Click to expand...

I have the Z170MX and use that ram at 3200. It's fine.
 
C

Captain N. Tenneal

Member
Sky Chief said:
Have you looked at the Phanteks Enthoo Pro M Tempered Glass Edition?
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's a current front runner for me. The interior layout seems to be really good and I love the tempered glass, I just find that those kinds of cases with the really unique finishes (brushed metal look) tend to look really bad and cheap when you plug an optical drive into them and it doesn't match the finish. Right now I'm having trouble reconciling my desire for a really aesthetically pleasing build with what's available in the market and what I want. No one case fits what I'm looking for 100%.

Another close contender is the Fractal Design R5, but I find the interior layout of that inferior and I dislike that the top vent mounts have no dust protection at all. Also it only has a small, cheap plastic window. But it's another front runner for me. Phanteks seems to be a better choice in terms of ease of build and quality of materials, though.

The previous Evolv MATX was ideal in that I got the nice case aesthetics, could fit an optical drive in the back so I wouldn't lose functionality, but it had weird button choices on the side of the case and is now completely unavailable anywhere for any reasonable price, so I was hoping the tempered glass version would rectify those mistakes while keeping the back 5.25 optical bay. It's a shame, otherwise this choice would finally be easy.
 
S

stb

Member
Any citeable info on using the thermal paste already on this Corsair H100i V2 vs cleaning it off and using Arctic MX4?

It'll be in a 7700k (NOT de-lidded) which will probably end up with a modest overclock.

I know the MX4 would be better, but is it "make an appreciable (as opposed to observable) difference" better?

EDIT: Both items are already purchased, so I'm not looking for "get [a different cooler or paste], instead"-type posts, thanks.
 
L

lostsupper

Banned
stb said:
Any citeable info on using the thermal paste already on this Corsair H100i V2 vs cleaning it off and using Arctic MX4?

It'll be in a 7700k (NOT de-lidded) which will probably end up with a modest overclock.

I know the MX4 would be better, but is it "make an appreciable (as opposed to observable) difference" better?

EDIT: Both items are already purchased, so I'm not looking for "get [a different cooler or paste], instead"-type posts, thanks.
Click to expand...

The difference if any will be extremely small. If you haven't removed the pre-applied paste on the AIO block, don't. Just use it.
 
M

Majine

Banned
Unsure if it was worth the money per performance, but a watercooling mount instead of a heatsink looks so much better. Doesn't hide the mobo as much. Dope af.
 
A

AyaisMUsikWhore

Member
Majine said:
Unsure if it was worth the money per performance, but a watercooling mount instead of a heatsink looks so much better. Doesn't hide the mobo as much. Dope af.
Click to expand...

This is how I feel and I'm struggling with how to go about it. Everything looks so nice and I have my little RGB set up...but i really want the water cooler for the aesthetics. But is the cost worth it?
 
W

Wolf Akela

Member
Can someone explain FreeSync to me?

I thought it'd remove screen tearing, but it doesn't. I have a Samsung and I tried both Standard and Ultimate FreeSync modes. I have FreeSync turned on ReLive.

I tested it by booting into a custom LoL game and zooming in/out. It's not exactly screen tearing, but more like partial tearing? Like the tearing doesn't span horizontally across the screen. I tried both borderless and fullscreen modes but still the same thing.

And yeah when I turned on FreeSync on my monitor, ReLive detected it.

Maybe I expected too much but right now I'd rather use VSync.
 
W

Water

Member
orhnsnmz said:
I'm in the market for a new monitor with a budget of around $600.

What would everyone go with:
- Curved monitor in FHD (I read that curved monitors are really awesome for gaming)
- Curved 21:9 monitor
- 4K monitor

.. or should I go a little higher and go even 4K Curved or 4K 21:9? Please help! :D
Click to expand...
It's funny curved displays get pushed mainly for gaming or media use, because it is not a beneficial feature for gaming or video playback. Curving the display slightly distorts what you see. It would be different if OS was aware of physical viewing geometry and games were capable of taking it into account for rendering. The only upsides to curved displays I can think of are 1) better utilizing the surface for a 2D desktop, 2) possibly counteracting some viewing angle limitations of LCD panels and I'm not even sure if that benefit is realized in practice.

The best you can get right now for general gaming use is 27" 2560x1440 display with high refresh rate like 144 or 167Hz, IPS panel and G-Sync. That probably goes slightly over your budget, but I'd spend the extra. Below budget you can get the same but have to either drop G-Sync or to drop the IPS panel for a TN panel. More niche choices would be a 3440x1440 ultrawide and/or something with a VA panel for superior contrast.
 
L

liezryou

Member
Wolf Akela said:
Can someone explain FreeSync to me?

I thought it'd remove screen tearing, but it doesn't. I have a Samsung and I tried both Standard and Ultimate FreeSync modes. I have FreeSync turned on ReLive.

I tested it by booting into a custom LoL game and zooming in/out. It's not exactly screen tearing, but more like partial tearing? Like the tearing doesn't span horizontally across the screen. I tried both borderless and fullscreen modes but still the same thing.

And yeah when I turned on FreeSync on my monitor, ReLive detected it.

Maybe I expected too much but right now I'd rather use VSync.
Click to expand...

Need more information, as freesync should stop screen tearing. What's your monitor? What's the reported rate in radeon settings? Is it turned on in both radeon settings and the monitor settings? Are you using the ingame VSync or driver controlled VSync?

I recently just got a freesync monitor to go with my rx 480 and it has been the best thing that has happened to me since mechanical keyboards. I had some issues with some screen tearing on overwatch but then i realized it was because the Vsync was pushing it to like 75.5 fps (instead of 75.0) and some weird decimal numbers that were pushing it above the freesync range so i just manually capped it to 74 so it wont go over 74.9 and now it's working perfectly.

It would be really helpful if you could take screenshots of both your display settings and your global/LoL gaming settings from the radeon settings program.
 
S

Sky Chief

Member
Captain N. Tenneal said:
Yeah, that's a current front runner for me. The interior layout seems to be really good and I love the tempered glass, I just find that those kinds of cases with the really unique finishes (brushed metal look) tend to look really bad and cheap when you plug an optical drive into them and it doesn't match the finish. Right now I'm having trouble reconciling my desire for a really aesthetically pleasing build with what's available in the market and what I want. No one case fits what I'm looking for 100%.

Another close contender is the Fractal Design R5, but I find the interior layout of that inferior and I dislike that the top vent mounts have no dust protection at all. Also it only has a small, cheap plastic window. But it's another front runner for me. Phanteks seems to be a better choice in terms of ease of build and quality of materials, though.

The previous Evolv MATX was ideal in that I got the nice case aesthetics, could fit an optical drive in the back so I wouldn't lose functionality, but it had weird button choices on the side of the case and is now completely unavailable anywhere for any reasonable price, so I was hoping the tempered glass version would rectify those mistakes while keeping the back 5.25 optical bay. It's a shame, otherwise this choice would finally be easy.
Click to expand...

What about using something like this with the Enthoo Pro M? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00564GIRE/?tag=neogaf0e-20
 
C

ColdDeckEd

Member
Wolf Akela said:
Can someone explain FreeSync to me?

I thought it'd remove screen tearing, but it doesn't. I have a Samsung and I tried both Standard and Ultimate FreeSync modes. I have FreeSync turned on ReLive.

I tested it by booting into a custom LoL game and zooming in/out. It's not exactly screen tearing, but more like partial tearing? Like the tearing doesn't span horizontally across the screen. I tried both borderless and fullscreen modes but still the same thing.

And yeah when I turned on FreeSync on my monitor, ReLive detected it.

Maybe I expected too much but right now I'd rather use VSync.
Click to expand...

liezryou I think got it right.

LoL's fps is almost certainly running higher than your monitor's freesync range. Try using Frame rate target control to cap the FPS to the upper end of your monitor's freesync range and seeing if that helps.
 
L

LilJoka

Member
stb said:
Any citeable info on using the thermal paste already on this Corsair H100i V2 vs cleaning it off and using Arctic MX4?

It'll be in a 7700k (NOT de-lidded) which will probably end up with a modest overclock.

I know the MX4 would be better, but is it "make an appreciable (as opposed to observable) difference" better?

EDIT: Both items are already purchased, so I'm not looking for "get [a different cooler or paste], instead"-type posts, thanks.
Click to expand...

Corsair use some of the best paste, don't reapply it. I believe it's shin et su paste.
 
A

AsianOni

Member
Hi everyone!

So my GTX780 fried a few days ago (sad that it didn't last at least 3 years) and I have a hard time deciding what to buy next.

Current rig: i5 4690k / 16GB DDR3 1600

I'm mainly playing in 1080p / 60fps but I downsample quite often. I wanted to wait for Vega/Volta but I don't think I can wait that long.

The wise choice would be an 1070 (more or less 300€ here) but what about in 3 years ? maybe an 1080 would be better (about 500€) in the long term.
 
W

Wolf Akela

Member
liezryou said:
Need more information, as freesync should stop screen tearing. What's your monitor? What's the reported rate in radeon settings? Is it turned on in both radeon settings and the monitor settings? Are you using the ingame VSync or driver controlled VSync?

I recently just got a freesync monitor to go with my rx 480 and it has been the best thing that has happened to me since mechanical keyboards. I had some issues with some screen tearing on overwatch but then i realized it was because the Vsync was pushing it to like 75.5 fps (instead of 75.0) and some weird decimal numbers that were pushing it above the freesync range so i just manually capped it to 74 so it wont go over 74.9 and now it's working perfectly.

It would be really helpful if you could take screenshots of both your display settings and your global/LoL gaming settings from the radeon settings program.
Click to expand...

This is my monitor. I have no idea what you mean by "reported rate". Can't find anything that looks like it.
http://www.samsung.com/ph/monitors/led-sf350/LS24F350FHEXXP/

Settings:
Bwnp8iz.png

7ESMtfm.png
Click to expand...

I did more testing:
- VSync On: No tearing on any configuration.
- FreeSync On / Borderless / 60FPS Cap: Bad tearing.
- FreeSync On / Full / 60FPS Cap: Low-medium tearing.
- FreeSync On / Borderless / 120FPS Cap: Low-medium tearing.
- FreeSync On / Full / 120FPS Cap: VERY minimal tearing.

So basically, increasing the FPS cap makes the tearing less obvious. It's like I get no FreeSync at all.

One other thing that's been REALLY bothering me is that I have no ReLive tab on my Radeon Settings! I got the latest drivers from here here. I made sure to download the 500MB one.

edit: Did a clean reinstall of the drivers. I get more options in the Display, lost Eyefinity (which I don't use), still no ReLive tab. What's going on?
XwpvGPd.png
Click to expand...
 
C

ColdDeckEd

Member
Try going to gaming, and looking for the frame rate target control setting. It maybe in the overclocking section. Then try capping it to 74 or 75. I think your free sync range is up to 75 hz. See if that helps.
 
L

liezryou

Member
Wolf Akela said:
This is my monitor. I have no idea what you mean by "reported rate". Can't find anything that looks like it.
http://www.samsung.com/ph/monitors/led-sf350/LS24F350FHEXXP/

Settings:


I did more testing:
- VSync On: No tearing on any configuration.
- FreeSync On / Borderless / 60FPS Cap: Bad tearing.
- FreeSync On / Full / 60FPS Cap: Low-medium tearing.
- FreeSync On / Borderless / 120FPS Cap: Low-medium tearing.
- FreeSync On / Full / 120FPS Cap: VERY minimal tearing.

So basically, increasing the FPS cap makes the tearing less obvious. It's like I get no FreeSync at all.

One other thing that's been REALLY bothering me is that I have no ReLive tab on my Radeon Settings! I got the latest drivers from here here. I made sure to download the 500MB one.

edit: Did a clean reinstall of the drivers. I get more options in the Display, lost Eyefinity (which I don't use), still no ReLive tab. What's going on?
Click to expand...

Ok well first of all I think you need to understand that freesync and vsync can be on together. What basically will happen is that freesync will run in its range (as far as I can gather for your monitor it had a range of 40-60hz) and anytime it pushes over that it will be auto capped at 60hz because of vsync. If you are having no screen tearing while vsync is on then it's working as intended. Anyway, in a game like league of legends your FPS will never be dipping below 60 so freesync will never actually kick in. Your freesync is gunna be for those demanding games that cause FPS to dip below 60 FPS.

As far as your driver issues are concerned, Try using DDU to uninstall all old drivers then install the new ones.

Oh and reported rate can be found by hovering over the freesync on/off button in the display options.
 
B

bomblord1

Banned
Working on a build for someone else hoping to get some feedback/revisions.

- Budget is $900
- Parts MUST to be color coordinated (example I have is red/black)
- Must include Windows, KB/M
- Wifi is a requirement (the example I have has it in the Mobo)
- He would like a new monitor to go with it but I feel like it would restrict the budget too much (He has an older/cheaper 1080p monitor already). But if it's possible to fit a newer one in (even just a regular 1080p monitor) that would be great
- Primary Goal is Gaming.

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i5-7500 3.4GHz Quad-Core Processor ($188.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Motherboard: MSI B250I GAMING PRO AC Mini ITX LGA1151 Motherboard ($93.89 @ OutletPC)
Memory: Patriot Viper Elite 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-2666 Memory ($97.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($49.89 @ OutletPC)
Video Card: MSI Radeon RX 580 4GB GAMING X Video Card ($219.98 @ Newegg)
Case: Cooler Master MasterBox 5 (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case ($51.98 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: EVGA 500W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply ($35.98 @ Newegg)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 10 Home OEM 64-bit ($88.58 @ OutletPC)
Keyboard: Cooler Master Devastator II Wired Gaming Keyboard w/Optical Mouse ($28.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Total: $856.27
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2017-04-21 12:28 EDT-0400
Click to expand...

This is what I've come up with. Looking for feedback, help, or revision.
 
J

JonnyDBrit

Member
bomblord1 said:
Working on a build for someone else hoping to get some feedback/revisions.

- Budget is $900
- Parts MUST to be color coordinated (example I have is red/black)
- Must include Windows, KB/M
- Wifi is a requirement (the example I have has it in the Mobo)
- He would like a new monitor to go with it but I feel like it would restrict the budget too much (He has an older/cheaper 1080p monitor already). But if it's possible to fit a newer one in (even just a regular 1080p monitor) that would be great
- Primary Goal is Gaming.



This is what I've come up with. Looking for feedback, help, or revision.
Click to expand...

Well, key can be gotten off reddit and the like, so accounting for that, the GPU could be bumped to the 8 GB version, which would be useful for gaming performance. At the very least though, I'd suggest getting an SSD in there.
 
B

bomblord1

Banned
JonnyDBrit said:
Well, key can be gotten off reddit and the like, so accounting for that, the GPU could be bumped to the 8 GB version, which would be useful for gaming performance. At the very least though, I'd suggest getting an SSD in there.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestion but getting the key from anywhere other than an official seller is not an option.
 
hikarutilmitt

hikarutilmitt

Member
Unless ITX is a necessity for size, you could go with microATX ad give yourself more options for price/mobo and case. I went with ITX because of what I was doing, but it's still an option.

Also, does he not already have a Windows license?
 
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