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[Ravidrath]

Games need to have in-game options for increasing or decreasing the size of text used in the game. Anybody who argues against such options are wrong; you simply can't predict every gamer's needs and situations.

I agree it would be great to have this, but it's not a trivial amount of work.

And is this just for dialog? Or do we need to do it for buttons and every other UI element?

Just localizing into German already breaks just about every piece of UI during a game's development, and font size options would be even worse. I can't even begin to imagine the horrors that variable font sizes and German would wreak on UI programmers and artists...

Again, not impossible, but a huge amount of work for something that isn't really affecting that many people, since most people that play games are young and sit appropriate distances from their televisions.

 

[KojiKnight]

I agree it would be great to have this, but it's not a trivial amount of work.

And is this just for dialog? Or do we need to do it for buttons and every other UI element?

Just localizing into German already breaks just about every piece of UI during a game's development, and font size options would be even worse.

Again, not impossible, but a huge amount of work for something that isn't really affecting that many people.

This, a lot of people think this is simply like editing a text document where all they'd have to do is increase the font size and "wham" all better. Just the amount of time that would have to go into play testing all the dialogue in game would make it a costly option.

 

[chickdigger802]

god bless mmos that allow you to resize everything, from UI to colors to text size.

 

[Dunan]

My eyesight isn't the best so I'm with you on the tiny font thing in principle, but with Dishonored it looks like the spacing between letters (near-nonexistent) and the letter designs are also less than perfect (the crossbars in 'f' and 't' are only half-drawn, and the lowercase t has a big hook at the bottom, so it almost looks like a 'c' from a distance). It really needs one more pixel between each letter, and a thicker black shadow around the letters.

I think that with the coming of bigger TV sets, developers of recent games have been assuming that everyone has a big screen. I have full HD but my screen is 21", which is downright small by today's standards. You'd think that with all the user interface standards that have popped up recently that are supposedly for people's benefit (but actually enrage them, such as the default 'no' for almost every decision, and continually asking users if they're 'sure' that they want to click on something, or whatever), there would be better guidelines on font sizes also.

 

[Ravidrath]

This, a lot of people think this is simply like editing a text document where all they'd have to do is increase the font size and "wham" all better. Just the amount of time that would have to go into play testing all the dialogue in game would make it a costly option.

In the OP's case, it does look like they could easily increase the font size and not have it disrupt much of anything. I'd have to see the largest single dialog string to know for sure, though.

I think that with the coming of bigger TV sets, developers of recent games have been assuming that everyone has a big screen.

Things like this generally get missed because game testers test in offices on monitors, not in anything like actual living room conditions.

 

[Neo C.]

Why aren't subtitles for Blu-rays done with #Game Size# text, if this is 'ideal' ?

Question adjusted for pedants.

It wasn't until the last few years that games would require you to be sat within 6ft of the screen. Personally I like my living room arrangement and nothing except games (and mostly western games at that) expect such a specific setup.

Why are people jumping on the OP without answering directly to this question? It's a very valid one.

The people who make the subtitles for movies are just more professional. When you make subtitles, you have to make sure that even viewers far behind in the room can still read it - and honestly, 12 feet from a 32" TV isn't too far away when we watched and played in SD. I remember when we watched movies in school, the TV was tiny, we sat on the last row and we could still read the subtitle. While subtitles for movies still follow this rule, game developers just don't put much thought on the gamers.

 

[Seance]

ewww
Does it look any better on 360? (graphics not the font).

 

[RobotHaus]

Poor design choices and lack of anyone who seems to have studied simple typography seem to be the issue with subtitles and general font usage in games. A lot of mid gen games from earlier this generation seemed to have issues with font choices not having a decent x-height or tacking/kerning. But it's also an issue when it comes to resolution and rasterising the fonts. You can make a really cool looking font, but scaling them won't work well when they get small.

I know a few games use basic system fonts that are built for proper scaling, but even then, there are times (like the second picture in the OP) where even if the font is readable, it isn't easy to see. One could argue that a developer would like to use a font that fits the game and helps to further indulge the player/prevents the player from losing immersion, but at the same time, the very use of overlayed text would be a contradiction to it in modern games that try to eliminate HUDs and other such things.

 

[Palette Swap]

Vanquish and FFXIII-2 got this right: make two font sizes available in options. I don't have too much trouble with fonts but it seems a good usability practice to give people an option to set this. Ideally system wide.

 

[Truelize]

Holy first world problems. Choosing to miss out on a game that is said to be excellent because it's too hard to read the text?

Wow.

 

[Magnus]

If you think that's bad try playing PC games in comfy couch mode. A lot of developers haven't realized PC games aren't only played on a desktop anymore.

Old Republic was pretty much unplayable for me on my 46" plasma, even sitting 7 feet away. At max UI scaling, I had to squint to read conversations, ability tooltips, everything. Was a big part of my decision to bail on it early.

 

[jett]

When it comes to subtitles 99% of developers are just completely incapable. Goddamn rent a blu-ray or something, turn on subtitles and see what the appropriate size, placement and line breaking should be.

Damned dweebs.

 

[MrDaravon]

Holy first world problems. Choosing to miss out on a game that is said to be excellent because it's too hard to read the text?

Wow.

Regardless of the OP's specific situation, if you're hard of hearing this is a significant issue. Also if anything in-game that isn't voiced that you need to read (such as button prompts, etc) would be an issue.

I think part of the problem here is the font specifically in Dishonored though. The OP is ridiculously far away from the TV, but from what both me and my wife played of the game (on separate TV's and rooms, but well within the optimal viewing range) we had some difficulty reading the text. I think it's the font they went with as well as it being white against a lot of the backgrounds. It's awkward in a way I can't remember game subtitles being in a very very long time, if ever.

When it comes to subtitles 99% of developers are just completely incapable. Goddamn rent a blu-ray or something, turn on subtitles and see what the appropriate size, placement and line breaking should be.

Damned dweebs.

As has already been pointed out in this thread, that's not comparable because movies/blurays don't need to accommodate for UI and gameplay elements. What dweebs.

 

[Ledsen]

Try playing Crusader Kings 2 from your comfy couch... Works ok if I lower the res to 720p, but still really tiny.

 

[antitrop]

OP sits too far away from his TV and decides to make a thread about it?

 

[Ace Harding]

If it's a 40" TV, then 5 feet is the minimum recommended distance away. Pull your chair back slightly if possible and you're good. Hardly hurting your eyes (any worse than staring at electronics would usually be...)

I realize this, but with my living room setup it's not possible to move the chair back. It's right in front of the coffee table at 5-6 feet and cant go back further. That's just a wooden dining chair, and a temporary fix when I can't read shit comfortably from the couch. I really would like a 60" for the viewing distance from the couch, which is more like 11-12 feet.

With some games I enjoy sitting pretty close. With racing games ~5 feet feels right. More immersive that way. Also multiplayer shooters - need to be able to make out the enemy when they are far away.

 

[milsorgen]

I dunno, I play on a 24" monitor to begin with. I keep the big screen open for the rest of the house but keep an Xbox hooked up there as well for friends and family and to be honest I couldn't imagine going back. No unnecessary tuner, smaller foot print, I don't have to share and in FPS my eyes don't have to move nearly as far between any two points of the screen.

 

[SpinningBirdKick]

Dead Rising should be on the tiny font blacklist.

 

[MrDaravon]

Dead Rising should be on the tiny font blacklist.

Yup. That game and very weirdly enough Kingdoms Under Fire: Circle of Doom (?) on 360 are what made me realized I needed to go buy an HDTV. It still amuses me that a demo for a shit game (KUF) is what made me get up and get a HDTV that day.

As an aside, your username is fantastic.

 

[antitrop]

Dead Rising should be on the tiny font blacklist.

This one is totally legitimate. Dead Rising was one of the infamous early-gen 360 games that had unreadable tiny fonts on SD TVs. Even on HDTVs it was pretty small, but on SDTVs it's completely broken.

 

[dock]

Holy first world problems. Choosing to miss out on a game that is said to be excellent because it's too hard to read the text?
Wow.

How is this a 'first world problem' ? I'm simply returning a defective product.

What is your suggestion? I spend my relaxation time sitting on a desk chair in front of my coffee table, with my back to my house mates?

 

[Seraphis Cain]

Hustle Kings on the PS3 is the worst offender of this I've ever seen. Even on an HDTV, the text is absolutely MINISCULE.

 

[Xevren]

I have some hearing issues so this is a pretty big issue for me too. Ended up giving up on Dishonered since it was so awful to read. I have a lot of issues with Witcher 2 as well, which sucks because I'm really interested in it. Playing on the 360, if that means anything.

 

[Callo Merlose]

Seems fine to me

This is a pun.

 

[DonMigs85]

How is this a 'first world problem' ? I'm simply returning a defective product.

What is your suggestion? I spend my relaxation time sitting on a desk chair in front of my coffee table, with my back to my house mates?

Er, that's a bit of a stretch. Why not try bugging them to patch it first?

 

[Bobby Roberts]

In which people of average to above average eyesight shit all over people with poorer eyesight as opposed to having a conversation as to why developers/programmers have decided not to increase the size of the text as the amount of pixels on the screen have increased.

Just because you got USED to something doesn't mean it's the ideal.

I mean, I can easily read tiny text from like 12-14 feet away. I'm lucky to have pretty decent eyes. But I don't LIKE IT. And in many games the text/subtitles/dialog is just poorly laid out. For example:

Think that's bad? Try New Little King's Story.

.

Look at how much real-estate the text box is taking up. Now look at how little the letters are in that text box. There's no fucking reason for that. It's poor design. Maybe OP overreacted by selling the game back, but that aside, the point he brings up is a good one: This tiny text trend is bullshit.

 

[Neo C.]

As has already been pointed out in this thread, that's not comparable because movies/blurays don't need to accommodate for UI and gameplay elements. What dweebs.

While I agree that developers sometimes have to make sacrifices in readability because of the UI, I still think they have to make sure that a game is playable not only in the minimal distance between player and TV.
I do hope that the Wii U solves many of these problems, at least the DS is often a joy to play just because of the UI.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

It's not the size, it's the width. Look how crushed those letters are.

 

[Dizzy-4U]

For me the problem with the second picture is not the size, but it could be better with a black outline so it doesn't blend with the background.

 

[Boogdud]

It was an issue for me in some Wii games

Someone needs to post monster hunter tri pics. That is one of the worst I've seen. Even on a 60" it's unreadable.

 

[Tagg9]

Surely sitting that far away affects your gameplay? I can't imagine doing well at a FPS from 12 bloody feet away.

 

[dock]

Er, that's a bit of a stretch. Why not try bugging them to patch it first?

Why bother? Everyone here is contented with this and every other game with small text. Besides, I don't lose any money if I return it right away, so I could buy it again in future for less than £40 when it fits my life better.

 

[kswiston]

How is this a 'first world problem' ? I'm simply returning a defective product.

What is your suggestion? I spend my relaxation time sitting on a desk chair in front of my coffee table, with my back to my house mates?

I'm not going to suggest that you change your room setup if you like it, but you can't really call the product defective. That would be the same as me making a thread saying "Guys, Tactics Ogre PSP is defective. I prefer holding my PSP at crotch level while I stand, and I can't read the text from there". Me preferring to play my handheld 3 feet from my face doesn't change the fact that PSP games were designed to be played from 12-18 inches away. Console games are designed to be played at a TV's optimal viewing distance. For your TV, that is 4-7 feet. Not 12.

All of that said, I find that font style matter more than font size in games a lot of the time. My gaming PC is attached to a 40 inch 1080P TV, about 8 feet from where I sit. From that distance, I can still read websites at the default Chrome font size. That said, I still get the odd game that is impossible to read from my distance, despite the fact that the font is a lot bigger than 10-12pp.

 

[Zeal]

Two minutes into Dishonoured, I have decided to return my copy for store credit because of the size of the on-screen text.

WTF is wrong with people nowadays. Maybe you should also return it because you don't like the color of some drapes in one of the houses.

And then make a thread about it.

 

[Moral Panic]

I'm sorry but when I look at that 2nd picture I don't see any "UI and gameplay elements" that stop them from using a font with a reasonable contrast and size.

 

[Hilfemaster]

PC gaming master race wins again

 

[antitrop]

PC gaming master race wins again

Unless you're using Big Picture Mode, as mentioned before.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I'm sorry but when I look at that 2nd picture I don't see any "UI and gameplay elements" that stop them from using a font with a reasonable contrast and size.

Yeah, this is fucking silly, right here. In fact, the UI and Gameplay elements are being stepped all over with not only tiny text, but tiny, totally unreadable text due to a total lack of contrast.

You test the game and don't think "Maybe there should be a black outline? Maybe it shouldn't be laid directly over the characters face? Maybe the text should be readable in the slightest?"

Look at all the space where larger, brighter, outlined text could easily fit. Why aren't they using it? Why are they shrinking down the readable text, making it white-on-white, and sticking it over the character's face?

 

[Neo C.]

I'm sorry but when I look at that 2nd picture I don't see any "UI and gameplay elements" that stop them from using a font with a reasonable contrast and size.

And the first one can easily be more readable as well. Even with all the AAA budgets nowadays, developers still make some basic mistakes.

 

[Teppic]

PC gaming master race wins again

What? PC games usually are the biggest offenders with small interfaces and font sizes.

 

[MrDaravon]

I'm not going to suggest that you change your room setup if you like it, but you can't really call the product defective. That would be the same as me making a thread saying "Guys, Tactics Ogre PSP is defective. I prefer holding my PSP at crotch level while I stand, and I can't read the text from there". Me preferring to play my handheld 3 feet from my face doesn't change the fact that PSP games were designed to be played from 12-18 inches away. Console games are designed to be played at a TV's optimal viewing distance. For your TV, that is 4-7 feet. Not 12.

This. The game is not defective, and making statements that it is the game's fault when the OP is sitting nearly double the recommended sitting distance away is why people are giving the OP shit. Dishonored in particular could certainly do a much better job with it's subtitles, and if the OP was based on that it would be fine and I agree. But this is like complaining that my Kinect doesn't work with one game when I'm 15 feet away from it but this other Kinect game does, or the PSP example above.

 

[GJS]

In which people of average to above average eyesight shit all over people with poorer eyesight as opposed to having a conversation as to why developers/programmers have decided not to increase the size of the text as the amount of pixels on the screen have increased.

Just because you got USED to something doesn't mean it's the ideal.

I mean, I can easily read tiny text from like 12-14 feet away. I'm lucky to have pretty decent eyes. But I don't LIKE IT. And in many games the text/subtitles/dialog is just poorly laid out. For example:



Look at how much real-estate the text box is taking up. Now look at how little the letters are in that text box. There's no fucking reason for that. It's poor design. Maybe OP overreacted by selling the game back, but that aside, the point he brings up is a good one: This tiny text trend is bullshit.

I like the text size in new little kings story, if anything they should have decreased the text box size.

 

[LuchaShaq]

Hey guys when I put a black blanket over the screen I can't see shit!

 

[MrDaravon]

Hey guys when I put a black blanket over the screen I can't see shit!

You're probably sitting too close! Also, you should get your eyes checked.

 

[mrklaw]

What's all is 'you're sitting too far away' nonsense? I'd expect most people in a normal lounge sit around 10-12ft from their TV. Not everyone has a TV that fits SMPTE recommendations for viewing angles. Either they can't afford one, don't have the space for one, or choose not to have a TV be the focal point of a room. Average size of a TV was around 21" 10-15 years a go, or whenever we had CRTs. And people's lounges were still the same size they are today.

Sit 5-6ft away? In a lounge? That's a vey backwards way of looking at a real problem. And it'll get worse as more people play PC games in comfy couch mode and developers assume they're sitting 2ft away from a monitor.

Game developers need to realise there are a variety of screw sizes and viewing distances out there, and accommodate them. The PS3 for example has a screen size setting for 3D, developers could hook into that and adjust text size.

 

[dank0723]

Whiny OP is whining

 

[gunstarhero]

That's what they all say. Is it REALLY 20/20?
Have 'em checked just to be sure.

I was guilty of saying this for years before I finally got my eyes checked out. Yep - I needed glasses.

Get those eyes checked man - besides the fact that your sitting too far, it sounds like your perfect vision isn't so perfect. :/

 

[Omni]

Hey guys when I put a black blanket over the screen I can't see shit!

It's bad enough that eyes are now a requirement for games, but requiring me to put my blanket elsewhere is just really disappointing!

 

[TheSeks]

Holy first world problems. Choosing to miss out on a game that is said to be excellent because it's too hard to read the text?

Some of us are deaf and subtitles need to be easy to read and not quick to disappear.

HURR DURR #FIRSTWORLDPROBLEMS THOUGH, AMIRITE?

OP: I've got no problem with tiny-text but I'm right there with you. It's so damn annoying to get a game and have lines disappear in seconds because the spoken line is already changing to where you can't keep up with the story or lines because you're reading the subtitles slower than the spoken lines. Who the hell thought that was a good idea?

 

[dock]

There are enough games in the world, and little enough time in the world, that everyone has the right to be a little picky.

I shouldn't have used the term defective, I was just trying to explain my principle for returning the disc immeditely rather than never ever playing it. Right now it's like a pair of jeans in the wrong size.