Absolutely. Look at Sharapova. Or, like, the entire existence of pro-sports cheerleading.
Seriously. You really can't set the bar much lower, and you're also assuming that no one criticizes other media for it, when they very clearly do.
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If fighting games want to be mainstream esports, they need less fanservice
- Thread starter DrArchon
- Start date
Absolutely. Look at Sharapova. Or, like, the entire existence of pro-sports cheerleading.
Seriously. You really can't set the bar much lower, and you're also assuming that no one criticizes other media for it, when they very clearly do.
That didn't happen until a few years ago though. Before that bikinis were mandatory and it took several controversies to change.
AWizardDidIt
Member
People who point to Zangief and Dhalsim are kinda missing the point entirely. It's not about how much skin is showing. It's about the design of the characters and focus of the camera in the fight. When the entire female cast of your game (barring Karen and *sorta* Ibuki) have giant boobs which are usually barely contained by improbable outfits and lingering ass shots during their super animations or win poses, what is a general audience supposed to think watching it? It just comes of as pandering and sad.
It's so nuts to me that SF5 was supposed to be capcoms big push towards esports and they went so backwards in their female designs from 4.
It's so nuts to me that SF5 was supposed to be capcoms big push towards esports and they went so backwards in their female designs from 4.
Steve Youngblood
Member
You honestly think that the characterization of someone using their character relies on sexy costume variants? I mean you could still have some skin and just enforce each character having some sort of "MMA outfit" variant.
Ninja Scooter
Member
It's not exclusively about what they are wearing. Yes Gief's standard costume is a pair of jockeys, but he doesn't go around making seductive poses and spanking his dick after a win. Look at the WWE (another male driven industry that often seems to target people who have never actually met a woman)The men are half naked but i don't think anybody would argue that they are more sexually objectified than the women/"divas".
Demoskinos
Member
I mean it was only on Disney because that is the parent company of ESPN. If you're already in the trenches negotiating deals might as well get your event aired on as many of the companies channels as you can.
You may be right but the real issue are the camera angles...
When is someone going to talk about how the camera zooms right in on Zangief's crotch when he's about to do his super.
Or like when the camera goes right in on Dhalsim's ass crack when he's about to do Yoga Sunburst?
Ostensibly, all for the female gaze...
/s
I really don't see how anyone can defend some of the female outfits in this game when they're indefensible. But they're in here.. and they're still trying.
Steve Youngblood
Member
No. I get that. Sure. But I'm specifically asking here that even if you ignore distinctions like what you are pointing out, I'm still not sure that this is relevant to ask of EVO's top 8 coverage. I did not see Zangief using the classic outfit on there.
Karsticles
Member
Didn't Luffy play Rose just because she had the biggest breasts in SFIV?
Steve Youngblood
Member
I have no idea. I'm just saying here I am. I'm one of the best players in the world at this game and on the biggest stage out there for the game. Is there really an argument that being forced to choose a PG costume variant is going to affect my play?
Noisepurge
Member
Most character designers and game directors are 12 year old boys 
Street fighter doesn't exist solely for the male gaze either. Now, up until 2012, female competitive beach volleyball players were required to wear bikinis (admittedly, I have no idea why). Now many still choose to, and many don't, which is fine.
But videogame characters aren't real people. They have no agency. They will never make a choice of their own. It's up to someone to design or write them to "make choices", whether in story or wardrobe. Yes, designing every female character to appeal to males as "fanservice" is wrong. But is it your contention that no female character should be designed to wear a revealing outfit that is her "own" in-character choice ever?
There are plenty of real-life women who, for various reasons and in various settings, choose to dress in revealing outfits. Sometimes they even do it for the sake of the male gaze. The difference being that these are real people who can make their own choices, not characters who have creators making all their choices for them, sure. But should creators only create characters who'd make the same choices as themselves? Like, you can't design a somewhat scantily clad lady character unless you yourself are a lady who'd make the same or similar wardrobe choice?
We could have movies and games filled with nothing but modestly dressed women, I guess. But that's not what you necessarily see in real life. It'd be just as fake as having movies and games filled with immodestly dressed women. There has to be a balance, but still, that can't happen unless you allow for creative people to make choices for their fictional characters.
It reminds me of a totally separate issue raised in that Lindsay Ellis video essay on Pocahontas (and Moana), so let me attempt an analogy. She spoke about cultural appropriation, and how it can be offensive and wrong, but that it is not inherently offensive and wrong. Every culture, every indiginous culture, exists in a world shaped by (white) colonialism. As with Moana, no matter how careful the creators are to be sensitive, authentic, and respectful of Polynesian culture, the fact remains that it was ultimately authorized and run by a bunch of old white guys, and those old white guys will profit off of it. What I'm saying is that, if rich old white guys are only allowed to create movies about rich old white guy culture, then well, that'd really suck too, wouldn't it? Just imagine all the rich-old-white-guy Disney movies we'd be getting in this day and age. There has to be some wiggle room, some allowance.
So, with Street Fighter, I don't find it strange that a bunch of muscular, fit, colorful, confident, aggressive characters would choose to dress in such a way that they show their bodies off. What we don't need is the camera sailing up their assholes.
As for video games in general, I don't think all such "fanservice" characters need to be done away with, or fixed. I do think we need far fewer of them, however, by orders of magnitude.
Rabid Dwarf 76
Member
I see the point you're trying to make but I just can't agree with it. For example: What about classic characters who's very designs don't fit this PG standard? Should Morgan or Felicia be redesigned with Esports in mind? Should Mortal Kombat tone down its violence in hopes of appealing to some hypothetical audience that's so ready to jump in if MK would only abandon the very thing that made it a household name? I also don't understand how someone who plays a game and sees all its content could then get offended because the same content is now being used by pros. I just don't see who this PG version is for? Help me understand.
I never once mentioned the merits, and I have no desire to argue that point here.
What I was saying is that it bothers me that the people who enjoy fan service are so often instantly assumed to be (1) straight males, (2) socially awkward, and (3) sexless. None of those three things are true, instantly negates the opinions of people who don't fit into those categories (while vilifying those who do), and taints the argument being made.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Personally, I see this as a "why not both?" opportunity. Have a mode that tones the violence and sexualization down, and have another mode that dials it all the way up to 11 if that's what you prefer. I think at their core, the appeal of these games is ultimately the fighting game mechanics. Mind you, I think there are aspects of the aesthetics and theme that factor into things. But at the same time why not open up the door to wider audiences. The problem with Mortal Kombat 1 on the Super Nintendo wasn't that they shipped a censored version by default. The problem was that there wasn't a way to turn the normal blood and fatalities on like you could in the Genesis version.
I don't know. I honestly see this as a legitimate opportunity for growth as opposed to a "fuck censorship!!!!" debate.
Foxy the Fox
Member
If that is a requirement, I would prefer to not be a mainstream esport.
Fanservice in fighting games is a staple of the genre, that's how we got Hot Ryu and all those Chun costumes.
Fanservice in fighting games is a staple of the genre, that's how we got Hot Ryu and all those Chun costumes.
theangrypirate
Member
Yeah, I'm not a fan of games bending to the will of dying cable networks. ESPN has been bleeding subscribers for years, and the younger generations would much rather stream these events then watch on ESPN.
Karsticles
Member
I can't speak for everyone else, but I end up choosing a particular character costume and color scheme that become "my character" in my mind. If I don't get to pick that variant, the game feels off to me. I know other people are sometimes similar - I recall a serious match between two Marty players in Melee a few years ago. They both preferred the same color variant, and the loser had to retire their color forever. It was a pretty big ordeal.
That said, if ESports is going to be a thing, then it will happen with or without people like this, and they will have to re-figure themselves out.
THAT said, I would rather Americans get their thumbs out of their asses when it comes to things like this. My son saw SFV Laura when he was six months old, and he liked her a LOT. Probably because of her big boobs and cleavage. Great. My wife and I still joke about it, and it's probably part of why he likes Latina women do much at the age of two now.
I don't think that skimpy outfits are the reason it's not mainstream, but rather about making it exciting to watch and getting repeat audience and getting adverisers that pay more, rather than a niche audience. Have you ever watched some pro-am or college game on a sub channel? half of the ads are for the colleges or local car shops
The problem with SFV is that they went heavy on the cheesecake compared to previous games, and there's no reason for it except to help sell the service model. That's where the problems start.
I'm sure ESPN is doing this for the same reasons YouTube has gone in the direction that they're in now to protect their advertisers and to avoid any controversy.
SFV was on TBS which had no issues with the costumes of the characters, so it's not an eSports issue. It's just been an issue with ESPN, which is owned by Disney, so I'm sure both channels would have the same policy when negotiating for those broadcasts.
I'm sure ESPN is doing this for the same reasons YouTube has gone in the direction that they're in now to protect their advertisers and to avoid any controversy.
SFV was on TBS which had no issues with the costumes of the characters, so it's not an eSports issue. It's just been an issue with ESPN, which is owned by Disney, so I'm sure both channels would have the same policy when negotiating for those broadcasts.
AWizardDidIt
Member
This is actually not a bad idea.
Whatever they do, they certainly need to handle things better. Before Top 8 even starts, make it clear which costumes aren't allowed and the players can just focus on the match 100%.
However small, someone coming up to you in the middle of the stage and telling you to change your costume will have a mental effect on the player. It's not about "oh my god, I can't show Cammy's booty anymore!", it's about making the player even think about it in the first place. They should focus entirely on the match, no distractions. Same reason why I think F. Champ should take an L every time he starts with his bullshit, feels like he does it in every single tournament.
However small, someone coming up to you in the middle of the stage and telling you to change your costume will have a mental effect on the player. It's not about "oh my god, I can't show Cammy's booty anymore!", it's about making the player even think about it in the first place. They should focus entirely on the match, no distractions. Same reason why I think F. Champ should take an L every time he starts with his bullshit, feels like he does it in every single tournament.
Karsticles
Member
Lol, school uniforms for video games. You better hope your character doesn't look lame!
This is 100% true. It's incredibly unprofessional of ESPN and EVO that this was allowed to happen two years in a row. I can understand it happening year 1 because, hey it's their first time, give them some slack. But to do it again? Come on.
Steve Youngblood
Member
OK. I can't tell if this is serious or not.
Plenty of people that objectify women are Adonis sex gods or gay. Great. I know both. No disagreement there.
Do you actually have a definition of fan-service that doesn't, at least partially, involve the male gaze or sexual objectification of women? Particularly when it's the core business model for a genre that's so niche?
Spaced Harrier
Member
I don't just think it, I know it, because I've seen it.
A fighting game character becomes and expression of, and extension of the player themselves.
Fergus, the Irish tekken player, only plays female characters. And he's not the only one.
The baseline character is extremely important in forming a bond.
Think of the hours you have to put in, with a character, you cannot do that if it doesnt make you happy.
I personally played Vega and Juri, in SFIV partly because of their attitude.
I think character choice is down to, Characterization, Playstyle compatibility, Tier Ranking. In that order.
Logically, only Tier Rank should matter for a pro. but that's just not true.
How many people name themselves after a character.
Take Cobelcog, he was always going to main Cammy in SFV, as long as she was available.
In fact the lack of a character I truely love has made, SFV more difficult for me to enjoy.
ViolentP
Member
Actually not uncommon in Hispanic groups.
Holy Order Sol
Member
.
Doesn't even matter specifically what we're talking about. Games already suffer on the gameplay side of things from the fact that the viewer experience has become more of a factor in how games are designed beyond "make shit look cool".
Budgets just need to be scaled the fuck down so that doing niche shit remains financially viable.
shira
Member
How is that different from Olympic beach voleyball?
SolidSnakex
Member
Steve Youngblood
Member
Right. But nobody is talking about removing characters. "Fergus, the Irish tekken player, only plays female characters. And he's not the only one." OK. The female characters are still there even if you impose restrictions on using the more risque outfits. The 99.9% of the time you're not playing the game at EVO, you can still use the characters and outfits you want.
Steve Youngblood
Member
What isn't uncommon in Hispanic groups?
Yappadappadu
Member
Wow, that's a great alt costume, but I wonder, what if Kazunoko had refused? Could they have forced him?
Last night at EVO, we had a repeat of last year's performance. Not from the players, but from ESPN. We had them come up on stage and say to the players "Hey, would you mind changing your costume? We can't show this chick's asshole hanging out on national television."
Thus, instead of Kazunoko rocking classic green leotard Cammy for most of top 8, we instead saw the classy alt costume you see above.
There's a huge difference between a girl deciding to wear what she wants and some designer in Japan giving all of her female character thongs so people can masturbate to them.
Some of these non-nonsensical analogies in this thread show that some of you people are living in an alternate reality if you don't see why mainstream channels would hate outfits like Cammy.
Err then why does she have huge gauntlents and a weird hat?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
lol sure, they're the real sexists here e_e
You're right, there is definitely no middleground to be found between Mika showing it all and keeping her whole self covered.
This must be one of the dumbest pictures I have seen on the internet.
Lol, I honestly don't know what's up with those gauntlets.
When I learned the term back in the early '90s due to anime, I learned it basically as "a scene or element added to a piece of media that isn't there to serve the narrative, but instead appeal to fans in a specific way". While some people assign that strictly to things related to sex, that can be "showy" alt outfits, panty shots, the ending of Legend of Korra, a cameo by a certain character, and plenty of other things.
I've seen no reason to change that definition over the course of my life, so that's how I'd still define it.
shira
Member
Aiguuuuuuu
They don't need to do anything. They shouldn't let esports limit their content outside of the esport context.
The current situation is the best of both worlds: people who don't care about everymen's perception of esports can have Cammy's traditional battle leotard and the prudish US network got its safer costume.
The current situation is the best of both worlds: people who don't care about everymen's perception of esports can have Cammy's traditional battle leotard and the prudish US network got its safer costume.