GoofsterStud
Member
VISA has already taken care of it.
-
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- Thread starter Gowans
- Start date
VISA has already taken care of it.
BrokenEchelon
Banned
You better download 100+ cracks if you want to play them
Valve officially encouraging piracy :?
Delusibeta
Banned
Well, you've made certain Valve will wipe your Steam account now.
ITT: People not realising this is standard practice in America, has been for a good 15 months, and there's no way of getting round it.
Wow, really? How much money are you talking about, dating back how long? And which state/country is this that lets you?
And did you already get it back?
Ravensmash
Member
Can't say I agree with this at all.
By all means lock my account out of new purchases, but not my purchased titles.
Although I'm guessing this won't stand up under UK law.
By all means lock my account out of new purchases, but not my purchased titles.
Although I'm guessing this won't stand up under UK law.
GoofsterStud
Member
I am concerned with this why? My civil liberties are more important to me.
All charges up to the past 6 months on record. Since I am fairly new to steam, I will be getting everything back, about $250 worth. I am actually surprised with how quick Visa was on regarding this issue after I sent them Steams response. They must be getting a lot of complaints on this issue, or I spend to much money....
Subliminal
Member
Sorry to be picky, but basically everything you said here is a massive over-exaggeration of steam, or basically not at all good for the consumer.
I'm not really a big fan of the 'wait for the sales' mentality that steam has cultivated, I think it may benefit some of the more prominent studios but for many it would be interesting to see how few games sell on steam outside of the big sales.
It's kinda not really 'easy' storage. You can't move games between computers, like you can with other services. If I have 2 PCs and I want to move my steam library across I have to redownload, which is kinda a pain.
Uh, I'm not sure if you're talking about the same social tools. The only thing I've ever really used the community page for is checking playtimes. The chat is awful, crashy and badly implemented.
Well, I've never actually got Steam's fabled offline mode to work consistently, I don't really get the dig at Blizzard here..
I have never used the 'discovery service', I'm not even really sure what you're talking about.
I'm not really a big fan of the 'wait for the sales' mentality that steam has cultivated, I think it may benefit some of the more prominent studios but for many it would be interesting to see how few games sell on steam outside of the big sales.
It's kinda not really 'easy' storage. You can't move games between computers, like you can with other services. If I have 2 PCs and I want to move my steam library across I have to redownload, which is kinda a pain.
Uh, I'm not sure if you're talking about the same social tools. The only thing I've ever really used the community page for is checking playtimes. The chat is awful, crashy and badly implemented.
Well, I've never actually got Steam's fabled offline mode to work consistently, I don't really get the dig at Blizzard here..
I have never used the 'discovery service', I'm not even really sure what you're talking about.
Delusibeta
Banned
What civil liberties? Certainly, the right to join a class action lawsuit isn't one, it was repealed by the Supreme Court April 2011.
GoofsterStud
Member
For people who accept such terms.
Delusibeta
Banned
Which translates to "anyone who uses the services of any American company".
GoofsterStud
Member
Not all companies make you wave such rights. >.>
To be honest I'm more upset with the remove of games, and giving people no choice but to accept to keep what they purchased. That goes to far. Corporate theft in my eyes.
Mistake
Member
The first time I ever tried steam was a nightmare. It had only been out for 7-8 months, and I decided to uninstall it after I tried it. Nope. Kill processes? Nope. Restart? Nope. Registry?!... Nope. In my fury, I restored the computer to an earlier checkpoint. Which is ironic, because that's the only time it ever worked.
More on topic though, if I can't own it, I don't buy it. I have gotten some digital stuff off PSN, don't get me wrong. But all of it is sitting on the HDD, so it's different. I can boot and play without any bs
More on topic though, if I can't own it, I don't buy it. I have gotten some digital stuff off PSN, don't get me wrong. But all of it is sitting on the HDD, so it's different. I can boot and play without any bs
In regards to gaming, pretty much all of them do. XBL, PSN, Origin, Amazon have similar clauses in their TOS that you've already accepted. I guess you can use gog though.
Valve was heavy handed in their rolling out of this new TOS, hopefully they can incorporate a better system in the future like they did with banned accounts.
Sentenza
Member
That's what developers commented about it:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...w_deep_discounts_really_affect_your_games.php
Not sure what you mean. You can easily copy-paste your game folders over a LAN without any issue. They just work.
Of course, if your two computers are miles away and there's no LAN connecting them you have to download again but... duh?
No idea of what's supposed to be "crashy" about the chat, as I can't say I ever experience a crash with it. But I'm sure that I can't think of concurrent services offering better community features.
Delusibeta
Banned
They either have already or they will. For example, if you've used Amazon.com since the middle of last year then you've waived your right to class action them. Hell, if you've bought a Humble Bundle recently, you've waived your right to class action them.
GoofsterStud
Member
That's my problem. If the same thing happens on PSN and Steam. PSN allows me to play my games though while not agreeing with future terms.
If I have no choice PSN and Origins are now the lesser evils, until then I'm back to buying console games, GOG, and indie bundles.
Amazon has DRM free purchases as well.
I realize Amazon isn't perfect, but it's not as intrusive as you make it out to be. The terms are more light now than Steam believe it or not. If you buy things on Amazon you own it. There is a big difference to me. You can also buy DRM free games from Amazon.
We are not talking about the new terms here though. He made his purchases under the very terms he is complaining now. I just wonder why.
GoofsterStud
Member
And I'm not a big fan of buying anything for 50 - 60 dollars when you don't actually own the physical media and you don't have resale rights. And there are almost no PC games sold today with resale rights. And without that, the real price of PC games is MUCH higher than console games. So, yeah, baby! Will. Wait. For. Steam. Sales. Because fuck the publishers otherwise. Their games are way overpriced (for the entertainment market that exists in the year 2012... not 1985) and they could all die in a fire otherwise.
Not with that attitude, anyway.
I think it's a bit rich the way some people promote a service as being pro-consumer and "friendly", but the baulk at criticising it when it takes a step away from consumer rights.
Messypandas
Member
Nice so Valve is holding your games hostage unless you sign. Wish there was a way to bring somekind of class-action lawsuit against them
Sales also help people buy things they otherwise wouldn't. I bougth Rage the other day because it was discounted. I have heard things (bad) about it and would have never bougth it, but it was so cheap that the money tradeoff against not linking it was in the sweet stop. That is, the game sucks but it was cheap so I don't lose a lot of money so I can jump into offers like this which otherwise I would have never buy rage (and now I repent of buying it, ugh the texture popping is insane)
The idea that you can sign a contract that says "we can change the contract at any time" is completely ludicrous, and the people saying "lol dats just da way it is no point fighting it" are daft.
Of course there's a point in fighting it - if enough people make noise the policy will be changed.
Of course there's a point in fighting it - if enough people make noise the policy will be changed.
Pureauthor
Member
No, he means that you bought Steam's games under the original agreement that Valve had the right to lock you out of your games whenever they damn well please.
I knew and accepted that term when I began using Steam. I don't know why so many people here don't.
GoofsterStud
Member
Barack Lesnar
Banned
When you state it like that, I'm glad I'm getting my money back.
Thanks.
I wish I did what you did but I already accepted the terms. Made so many poor purchases on Steam (buy game, never play it or play for 20 mins) it would be nice to get a refund lol.
The amount of legal mumbo jumbo can make everything look bad. Consider that there are many games with locked-out content on disk, you are never buying games, you are essentially buying a right to play them. You don't own the disk and you can't do with it what you please. People still buy games because this never actually comes into play on a common basis. It's the same with Valve being able to lock out your steam account. They would never do it for no reason and if they suspect something and do lock it out, I've seen plenty of steam support replies that have gotten solved quickly. Just because a company can do X and it's in their agreement, doesn't mean they will, there is plenty of legal BS in gaming that rarely amounts to anything.
Ravensmash
Member
The point is that they shouldn't be able to lock me out of a purchase, whether they have a reason or not.
I suppose, though under normal circumstances they do not. Wanting valve to be different than every other company and disagreeing to their agreement isn't normal circumstances. I didn't give the agreement a second thought because I don't see how it could possibly effect me.
Just to play devil's advocate, I'm not sure unconscionability would work here. Mind you, what I'm saying after this is based on personal knowledge, not any real research or knowledge of the specific law in the forum where this clause is litigated so my words are definitely not legal advice and may not be correct. But unconscionability is usually a nuclear option that is rarely used by courts. When it is, it is usually to invalidate extremely unfair contracts. I'm not sure that this clause will count as unfair. Namely because this is an arbitration clause (you are forced into arbitration rather than a lawsuit), which is common in contracts. This clause doesn't remove all of your legal options, it just funnels them into arbitration. Moreover, courts actually favor arbitration clauses t so it will likely be loathe to overturn this clause. Now, I could be completely wrong on this but I at least am willing to argue that this is not a slam dunk case.
Duress might be a decent argument but it still runs up against public policy favoring arbitration. I don't know enough about the law of duress generally to make any claims about it.
What I'm trying to say here is don't sign the agreement being 100% certain that this clause will not be enforced. I imagine Valve hired a good law firm to structure this clause and that the law firm has a good argument for the validity of the clause. Moreover, the mere existence of the clause, regardless of whether or not it is valid, acts as a deterrent. Let's say Valve does something that may make you want to engage in a class action lawsuit. You will have to address this clause at some point, which just adds to the legal costs. Plus, Valve can draw out litigation over this one clause. You may eventually win and have the clause declared unenforceable, but the legal cost of doing so may be so high that you might not have the funds to proceed, the class might not have the funds to proceed, or a law firm taking this case on commission may not want to even deal with it.
How about you read my half-dozen posts in this thread about your rights in Australia?
You're probably right. I don't practice U.S consumer law, of which I only have skin deep knowledge. I highly doubt duress is available as a substantive doctrine in this case, maybe economic duress but I'm not sure if the Australian version is mirrored in the U.S.
Sentenza
Member
I was just thinking that, while I still think people are definitely blowing this thing out of proportions, that could even be a good thing after all.
Valve can definitely bank on too much good will from customers these days and they could make the mistake to start taking that as a given; some backlash, some moderate amount of irrational outrage and hostility toward them, could hopefully make them more wary of how they act and eventually encourage them to reevaluate some of their less likable policies.
Valve can definitely bank on too much good will from customers these days and they could make the mistake to start taking that as a given; some backlash, some moderate amount of irrational outrage and hostility toward them, could hopefully make them more wary of how they act and eventually encourage them to reevaluate some of their less likable policies.
It understandable if it's their service, and all those purchases are tied to the service, but you haven't agreed to follow the rules of the service.
Most games on Steam can't even start without Steam launching; ie they use the Steam service in some way. But you can still play games that don't use it at all (Oblivion and Fallout 3 for example don't require Steam to run, even if they were downloaded from Steam).
edit: I'm wrong of course, the agreement says you must have a Steam account to play any and all content downloaded from Steam.
I see the one valve/steam hate thread about this wasn't good enough. And I see that people are again ignoring that most everyone else in gaming and beyond does this just to criticize steam.
I just got Sleeping Dogs and Darksiders 2 for less than what you'll pay for 1 on consoles. So I'll disagree with you there.
I just got Sleeping Dogs and Darksiders 2 for less than what you'll pay for 1 on consoles. So I'll disagree with you there.
VibratingDonkey
Member
Bothers me somewhat that they can just up and change the terms after the fact and hold your account and all attached games purchased under different terms hostage. They need to provide an actual proper way of opting out of this while retaining access to your account and previously purchased games.
And now I'm gonna tell Valve that.
And now I'm gonna tell Valve that.
That's fine if we don't hold the same opinion on steam.
I don't either but I see how it can be argued as acceptable for other people which is why I bring it up. In fact it pretty much is the biggest reason people talk about and hype up Steam in the first place.
Yeah if Steam was GoG I would understand this problem but I accept why Steam uses DRM and why they would be more attractive to devs as a platform to sell there wares.
I also have other reasons why I'm ok with Steam's method but being fully honest on GAF would just get me banned and I think it is too important to lose access to this discussion.
To be honest here I don't use many of the tools aside from chat which I have found to be working fine. I just notice that they do have a lot of tools available for people who really want to do more than what I'm looking for in an online gaming social experience.
You are right that it is inconsistent but that doesn't mean it doesn't work work usually. My dig at Blizzard is that I went from being able to play the Tides of Darkness campaign anytime I want to being required to play Diablo 3 (which is my first Diablo btw) as long as I'm connected. I expected more from Blizzard on this front. I only put up with it because I was actually able to play the game whenever I had time. The bigger and more retarded problem I ran into was being unable to invite a friend so we can do the campaign together.
Whenever you log in to Steam and see what is coming up and what is being played and what they recommend for you to buy is all part of the discovery service. How companies present information isn't something most are good at. While there is still room for improvement Valve is one of the best at this. A good discovery system is why I find myself shopping on Newegg more than Tigerdirect or Zappos over Amazon and Macys.
But I'll actually own my copies.
It is hard to defend this. I agree to the terms on Monday and buy a game. Then they change the terms on Tuesday and if I don't agree, then suddenly I don't own anything anymore? Screw that. If any other company tried that, people would flip the fuck out.
Never seen this before... that's pretty awesome. Kudos to Valve for getting this right.
alexandros
Banned
Allowing an EULA to override common law in such serious matters seems absolutely absurd to me. Still, each country has its own laws and since the Supreme Court decided that such clauses are ok then... that's that. People in the US with a dispute against Steam should go individually to arbitration or small claims court. Both companies and consumers have to respect the law of the country they reside in.
No. A EULA does not override the law and it never will.