If none of this would hold up in court, what's the point of disagreeing?
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- Thread starter Gowans
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If none of this would hold up in court, what's the point of disagreeing?
Visualante2
Member
Fuck Steam, Valve should just split off the business if they're going to go down this road.
Because it's anti consumer. Not everyone is familiar with the law. It's pretty complex. When they cite a problem with customer support you get "well you signed this EULA, sorry" and most people go "oh, well I guess it's my fault" when in fact it is not legally binding and they have rights. Sure we can't expect companies to advertise your rights when it is against their interests, but this EULA shit is downright deceptive in some parts of the world. Sorry America your justice system is beyond repair.
A EULA only applies to the extent to which the law allows. The law would not allow you to be bound by a clause you did not agree to.
I believe they actually allow banned accounts access to their already purchased games, so I'm not sure why they remove all your games and essentially delete your account if you don't accept the new agreement.
Palette Swap
Member
I really love Steam and have hundreds of games there but reading this thread, I realize it has turned some PC gamers in the same drones you find in console wars.
Steer clear of Origin threads then
"EA is so anti-consumer!"
"Fuck Origin everything should be on Steam!"
The irony
You can say that but I'd be willing to bet my copies will last longer than yours will. This is a small change that will result in nothing different happening from normal day to day life. Unless you were planning on suing Valve for no reason that is.
CecilRousso
Member
People are people no matter what formats they play on. But please dont make the mistake of confusing people who dont worry about about a ToS that doesnt apply to everyone, and might not hold up in court, with drones.
Sentenza
Member
You should definitely start pointing specific names and reasons for a statement like that or just shut up, because this post essentially reads like some timid attempt to belittling everyone with an opinion you don't like without exposing yourself too much.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
i agree but Steamworks.
edit: oh.. when you go to buy a game on Steam how does it present itself? Does it say Buy or Purchase?
I don't think that covers cases in which you don't agree, since if you don't agree there is no Agreement in the first place. This clause probably deals with the situation in which you agree to the new agreement but afterwards the agreements terminates for some other reason
Visualante2
Member
It's a completely valid comment and they shouldn't need to personalise it, turning it into a user shit throwing contest. It's trivial when you can see which users do not care about the issue, and will defend businesses citing the status quo. Hardly surprisingly when journalists themselves do it, so detached they have become from the consumer population they speak to.
Purchase.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Seems like a vulnerability to me.
Lol, he doesn't need to this post validates his point.
Go into any Steam or Original topics and the fanboyism from someone posters is more blatant than any console warrior.
Love Steam, don't care about this addition myself but NO consumer should be defending them on this
I am closing my Steam account. I didn't do a lot of multiplayer there, so I'm not going to miss it much. I will rebuy the games I owned as used console games (I feel less guilty about the used purchase since I already paid new for the downloads.)
Will also rebuy my PSN Classics and Xbox Originals as physical discs sometime down the road as well.
Kindle books will have to wait though, way too many of those and too little physical space
.Keep it retail!
You're at the mercy of every game company, retail or digital.
Hope you kept a PS2 this generation or I hope your 60gb PS3 didn't die. Even if they didn't can you count on having/finding a working PS2 15 years from now? 30 years? Your ownership of physical games is just as shaky.
I am closing my Steam account. I didn't do a lot of multiplayer there, so I'm not going to miss it much. I will rebuy the games I owned as used console games (I feel less guilty about the used purchase since I already paid new for the downloads.)
Will also rebuy my PSN Classics and Xbox Originals as physical discs sometime down the road as well.
Kindle books will have to wait though, way too many of those and too little physical space
Keep it retail!
But CDs/DVDs degrade. Vinyl for life, yo.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
This is true. The PC used to be the only platform that had general continuity moving forward into the future - and that was only because Microsoft needed to keep Windows, the OS with the most game software, compatible with past revisions. Even that is subject to change.
But here's the thing: unless I'm missing something, how is buying the average PC game today any different from buying it on Steam? Most of the major PC publishers use some form of serial or DRM. The physical disc you buy is nothing more than a convenience - a storage device for the bulk of the game's data. That you could also download off the internet.
Just because you have a physical disc of a DRM-equipped game, you don't 'own' it in the way people want to assume in order to give the finger to Steam. You can still be told to f-off by the publisher, or become unable to play the game if they go under and don't fix the situation.
The harsh reality seems to be that for most PC games, no matter how you buy them, there's the danger of them becoming unusuable due to corporate whim or failure forcing one to 'exercise their consumer right' by going and replacing the 'stolen' game with a cracked version. This is exactly what I've seen many folks argue: that pirates save the day again, by insuring that anyone who gets screwed over by a publisher can 'justifiably' go and download a cracked version of the game anyway.
So. Many/most of the games that don't have DRM aren't published on Steam anyway. Most of the big games on Steam also have DRM (that I know of) when bought without Steam. Most of the big games that aren't published on Steam at all, also have DRM that puts the user in the same boat and the retail disc is an illusion of ownership in any meaningful sense - the right to play the game you bought from here unto eternity.
So Steam is evil in a special, unique way, how?
CecilRousso
Member
It´s funny to see how people seem to forget what digital distribution, through Steam and other sources, have done for the PC as a games platform, as soon as they encounter a problem with it. But if you don´t actually care about what you play, I guess you can go back to physical console copies.
We should never be afraid of discussions, and try to improve what we feel is wrong (I don´t like Accept/Exit dialogues either), but if we can´t learn to take the good with the bad, we will never be able to have nice things.
We should never be afraid of discussions, and try to improve what we feel is wrong (I don´t like Accept/Exit dialogues either), but if we can´t learn to take the good with the bad, we will never be able to have nice things.
Excuse me, but why would Valve take away our games one day? I was under the impression that valve likes our money.
countless people still have their NES/SNES collections from when they were kids
buying a 20+ year old NES also takes 5 min on ebay should the console brake (many still work)
good luck with steam in 20+ years
How about you read my half-dozen posts in this thread about your rights in Australia?RustyO said:
I will again in the morning
Me thinks you study/practice Australian law?
SteveWinwood
Member
This fucking thread. I hope you guys are happy giving me a headache at 9 in the morning.
What is gonna happen in 20+ years?
They have already taken your games away if you choose not to give up your rights to class-action lawsuit.
I think it's about expectations. Steam and Valve have positioned themselves as pro-consumer, so anti-consumer actions such as this inevitably attract more criticism because of the percieved hipocrisy.
butter_stick
Banned
You don't own anything. The police could come to your door right now and take all your belongings. Your video games could not work on next gen systems. You system could break down and no one will have a replacement you can buy.
They are locking people out of games that they have purchased with real money.
Don't want to accept the new TOS? Fine. Your account is now locked and you will no longer be able to purchase any new content. This would be acceptable.
Don't want to accept the new TOS? Lol no. Everything you've ever purchased from us is gone. This is not acceptable and even more evil than anything EA has done. It's absolute bullshit and no one should defend what they're doing.
Haunted
Member
I dunno. Maybe. I tend to bury mine in the back yard. But my games won't disappear during the 2020 global-thermal war.
It really isn't even much to do with Valve's reasoning about suing, just that they believe they can do this. Its always been an issue lurking around with Steam, but good faith in Valve has sort of kept it from ever being a real concern. Now we seemingly have Valve saying "Accept ___ or lose all your games." Really surprising, too. I always thought banned/closed accounts still kept access to purchased stuff.
I don't think it can be compared to retail with hardware failure, DRM or whatnot even with emulation and the like removed from consideration. I own Atari games that I can't play currently. But they are still my property and will remain so. If I get mad at Atari, steal Atari's car, or sex up Atari's sister, my copy of Pitfall isn't going to vanish. That is a world away from where a Customer Support rep can say "Nope! These don't exist any more. Po-oof!"
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Seizure by government agencies is not the same as the store locking you out of your purchases.
Delusibeta
Banned
Except when it comes to banning class action lawsuits, in which case in the US you can't bring a class action lawsuit. Every American company will have such a clause in their contracts. Everyone.
When it comes to software (all software, including video games), you only buy a licence. It's only really been this gen in which they can enforce this.
CecilRousso
Member
Yes, I know about that dialogue. I mentioned it in my post. I´m not just going to go back to the dark ages of physical only games with the more limited choice of games that that brings , and forget everything DD has done for me, because of ToS that´s not sure to hold up in court anyway.
No, you are not.
I can still play my Sierra/LucasArts games from 25 years ago. Why so? Because they didn't include DRM and no activation servers. That's why I can put those fine games on a SD card for backup purposes - so I'm not dependant on the original media (the original CDs still work nowadays). And that's also why some people with too much time on their hands were able to figure out the engines and implement it platform-independently, which means I can even play those games on Wii, iPhone, PC, Mac, whatever I like. Even better those engines were recreated as open source, which means even if all the involved developers die somehow, nothing will get lost. I bet my ass that those games will still be playable even in 100 years.
And what has this to do with the current digital sales? Sure, a physical copy may get scratched (my fault) or in 50+ years, I won't be able to get working hardware - but those problems are not retail exclusive. Who will guarantee that Sony will support digitally sold games on PS4? On PS5? On PS6? No one. Who will guarantee that Sony will even support PSN on PS3 "forever" (see Xbox Live for original Xbox - all digital download-content is lost)? They can just dump everything, which would then mean I would be stuck with my current PS3s and as soon as just those break down, I would be SOL. With disc based games however at least I could just buy another PS3 and use that one to play the games.
Will their NES work in another 10 years? It's going to break eventually, and the newer the system the less reliable they are. Steam has a greater chance of being around in another 20 years than consoles that are already 20 years old.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Then there is this. Companies like money. They like it if you have a reason to keep buying things from them. Therefore, and this is not 'defending' anything, it is in their self interest to not cackle evilly and run away without warning taking all your games in a (digital) sack.
As for what seems to be a kind of urban legend that if Valve goes under they'll unlock all your games... I believe there was some noise a few years ago about Valve having a tool to unlock Steam accounts in the event the Steam service is discontinued. If true, I assume Gabe keeps it on a USB stick sewn inside a jockstrap or something.
But the problem there is, let's say that is true... I could see why they wouldn't unlock individual accounts before the entire company went under, as from a business perspective that gets messy and opens them to potentially exploitable tactics that they'd prefer to simply not deal with. Again, I am not defending this - I agree that ethically, it would be better if they allowed people to opt out (permanently), give them their stuff, and go.
thats the thing.... whatever the fuck valve wants!
whats NOT gonna happen though is nintendo busting down people doors reclaiming people's game collections
"technically" even with physical you only buy a "license to play" but IRL you pretty much own it
with digital publishers can actually enforce the whole "license to play" legal BS for real
Microsoft buys Valve and replaces all Steamworks with Games for Windows Live.
Gabe was right and Windows 8 ends up being really bad for Steam.
Nothing, but then again neither does this new ToS. The only people losing their games in this thread are the people who are choosing to overreact and shut down their accounts. This debate in question is all hypothetical and future talk, people are assuming one day Valve will press the business suicide button and shut everyone's accounts down or something. For right now retail has no ownership bonuses over digital. I can play my 400 games as easily as you can play your retail stuff right now. The people against this are assuming something apocalyptic will happen in the future.
iNvid02
Member
i like steam, but this shit should not be legal. if you disagree with the agreement they should do something similar to when an account gets suspended - prevent purchases, gifting, trading etc but still allow you to sign in and access your games.
no can do
2 of the games im buying next are both steamworks, you need steam to play them. same with EA and Origin too.
the only way around it is to buy a boxed copy and keep it in your house, and then download a cracked version.
no can do
2 of the games im buying next are both steamworks, you need steam to play them. same with EA and Origin too.
the only way around it is to buy a boxed copy and keep it in your house, and then download a cracked version.