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[Feep]

Oh hey, someone compared losing access to computer games to child rape in this thread. Cool.

This is pretty rough, but you're insane if you think digital isn't the future. Steam should allow offline access to purchased content, and legislation should be passed to ensure similar behavior in the future.

Practically, I'm not actually worried. But it's the principle, I guess.

 

[gdt]

Jesus, thats fucked up. They should be able to stop your account from buying anything new, not take everything away.

In fact, is that even real? Thats some hideously evil shit. That or that support guy had an AWFUL day.

 

[CecilRousso]

This is one of the main reasons I prefer real media over digital for my game purchases. I object to paying for a license that can be revoked at any time when the alternative is a physical copy that can't be remotely destroyed.

For PC games, I do hope that you research your purchases, for the ones released the last couple of years contains just as much DRM as digital purchases.

They also come with the added feature that they within weeks will be an outdated version because of all the patches games get.

 

[GoofsterStud]

Jesus, thats fucked up. They should be able to stop your account from buying anything new, not take everything away.

In fact, is that even real? Thats some hideously evil shit. That or that support guy had an AWFUL day.

I got a similar response, while mentioning no refund on license I haven't used from the recent summer sale.

 

[alstein]

BTW some games through Steam don't need Steam.

Two off the top of my head:
Dungeons of Dredmor series
Mount and Blade series

If it were officially legal, without a doubt.

If it were legal I would buy physical copies while only installing the pirated versions. A box, manual, no DRM... Yes, please.

This was very common pre-DD, as folks didn't want to put the CD in the drive just to play a game. Most games have CD-check DRM back then (and was pretty easy to beat)

 

[CecilRousso]

BTW some games through Steam don't need Steam.

Two off the top of my head:
Dungeons of Dredmor series
Mount and Blade series

I think that´s the case with quite a lot of Paradox titles, like EU3 and Crusader Kings 2.

 

[itxaka]

Here's a question, if something did happen and you had access to all your Steam games revoked, would you pirate them to get them back? Would you feel bad about it?

I'm more of a console gamer and I feel safe with my retail discs but even with my small Steam library I can't say I'd feel too terrible about taking back games that I rightfully paid for and should own.

Yes. And I won't feel bad. Why should I if I paid for them? In fact, thnks to some devs out there I NEED to crack some of my games or they won't start (Splinter cell says my key has already being register...well yes it has you dumb fucks, it's in my account you idiots)

In fact, if you paid for a "license" to play them, doesn't matter where the media comes from as you have a license to play them and the publisher is not the one revoking the license. It would be the DRM company(steam) revoking your rigths to ACCESS your library not your licenses to play.

 

[Woo-Fu]

So basically they're holding your games hostage, if you don't agree to whatever terms they feel like imposing you lose your games.

Maybe the next ToS will require you to perform oral on random valve employees once a month.

 

[derfybzh]

I use Steam a lot but from now on I'll get my steamable preorder from GreenManGaming, the only way to say F**K you to Gabe !
Less in their pocket !

 

[NullPointer]

BTW some games through Steam don't need Steam.

Two off the top of my head:
Dungeons of Dredmor series
Mount and Blade series

Interesting. I wonder what the fine print is with these games on Steam.

 

[CPS2]

I wasn't planning on getting involved in a class action lawsuit but it kinda looks like Sony and Valve are about to do something that would make me want to.

 

[Currygan]

This is pretty shitty. I thought you could transfer/backup games from Steamapps to discs and things like that. This is REALLY shitty


good thing I don't have many games purchased from Steam...

 

[Frost_Ace]

And that's why I have so few games on my steam account, physical media ftw~~~

 

[Mickdundee96]

I was wondering where you would stand if you pirated a game but then sent the publisher a cheque for the cost of the game?

If enough people did it, it would be a protest and at the same time show there are honest people willing to pay for the games but unhappy with the restrictions put on your own games.

While morally doing the right thing

 

[itxaka]

And that's why I have so few games on my steam account, physical media ftw~~~

Problem is that they are starting to collide. I got Skyrim one day earlier and was super happy that I could get to play it earlier, but it required steam...

And that is a trend that I see growing.

 

[CecilRousso]

Problem is that they are starting to collide. I got Skyrim one day earlier and was super happy that I could get to play it earlier, but it required steam...

And that is a trend that I see growing.

It´s not something that starting, it´s something that has been there for a long time. People just don´t notice all DRM on their discs.

 

[Sentenza]

Problem is that they are starting to collide. I got Skyrim one day earlier and was super happy that I could get to play it earlier, but it required steam...

And that is a trend that I see growing.

That's not really bad, when you consider what are the other popular options (GFWL, TAGES, Securom, Starforce, Ubiplay, Origin, etc).
For a game being Steamworks it means it uses no other DRM, it has a DRM simply based on encryption of the executable instead of installing harmful stealth drives, it integrates the best community features around and, like for Origin games, it can eventually be bought on keystores that offer very competitive prices (not going to drop names as if I remember right GAF banned them as they are legally a grey area).

 

[wildfire]

I'm actually glad people are starting to wake up and smell the coffee on Steam as a whole. Just because Gabe is the head of Valve it doesn't mean they are god or untouchable. Whether intentional or a byproduct, Valve is destructive to PC gaming.

Quit it with the dumb rhetoric. Valve's advantage for the consumer has been:

Ridiculously low sale prices

(can't even be argued as bad for the developer considering how beforehand in the retail space their games would go into a bargain bin without any advertising or would be competing heavily with the reselling market)

Easy storage of your catalog
(admittedly everyone else provides this very easily now)

Finely well tuned social networking tools that are gaming oriented.
(Noone comes close to this)

DRM that doesn't feel intrusive.
(hello Blizzard)

Great discovery service for finding games that would appeal to you.
(They're even better than Apple and I only think that is the case because they are serving only one type of pc application market instead of spread across 4)

Even with the dumb terms being stated I'm still interested in the advantages Valve is offering because I like Steam.


Even though I like Steam I can't consciously support the idea that they can unilaterally change terms my peers don't like and don't provide them access to games they purchased.

I'm beginning to think Valve needs to be sued so people who don't like this EULA can be banned from buying future games but they can still access their current purchases.
That would be equitable.

Just quit it with the stupidity.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I was wondering where you would stand if you pirated a game but then sent the publisher a cheque for the cost of the game?

If enough people did it, it would be a protest and at the same time show there are honest people willing to pay for the games but unhappy with the restrictions put on your own games.

While morally doing the right thing

It'd be like sending a cheque to your local car dealer, and then stealing one of the cars.
I mean, it's still pretty illegal, but morally?
I reckon it's fine so long as that cheque covers the price of the car plus any additional cost the break-in/autotheft entails for the car dealer.

 

[Delusibeta]

Some games are. The Witcher 2, for example.

Not really, it launched with SecuROM in the boxed copies while the GOG version was DRM free from day one.

For everyone complaining about the "no class action" clause, please note that every American company and every company who has their terms or service governed by US law (including Gamersgate and GOG) will include a similar clause whether you like it or not, it is a boilerplate legal clause that will become standard throughout America, and you'll have to thank the Supreme Court and AT&T for that.

 

[itxaka]

That's not really bad, when you consider what are the other popular options (GFWL, TAGES, Securom, Starforce, Ubiplay, Origin, etc).

Well it's kind of bad because you are depending on a third party to activate your game, while a physical game with local drm (tages, securom,starforce) can always (probably) be cracked without depending on anyone else.

That means that when the fallout comes, you will still be able to play some games. Not skyrim thougth.

It´s not something that starting, it´s something that has been there for a long time. People just don´t notice all DRM on their discs.

Sorry, I thougth it was new because there has been a long time since I bougth a PC game phisically

 

[GoofsterStud]

I'm beginning to think Valve needs to be sued so people who don't like this EULA can be banned from buying future games but they can still access their current purchases.
That would be equitable.

Wouldn't it be great. That'd make them as consumer friendly as Origins again.

It'd be like sending a cheque to your local car dealer, and then stealing one of the cars.
I mean, it's still pretty illegal, but morally?
I reckon it's fine so long as that cheque covers the price of the car plus any additional cost the break-in/autotheft entails for the car dealer.

Well if you stole the car you purchased, is it really stealing?

Why is pirating a game you purchased considered immoral exactly? You know I see custom car jobs all the time. ZOMG!

 

[RustyO]

Intresting... just logged on to Steam; and went to the SSA. Appears mine has been updated without any option to opt in/out? (Either now or previously)

Australia btw


And realistically... how much of this is due to to the recent EU ruling on the first sale doctorine?

Wanting to avoid class-action lawsuits (how many has Valve had to deal with so far?) coudl still be achieved via other means...

 

[NullPointer]

We obviously need to get more lawyers and judges hooked on gaming.

 

[GoofsterStud]

Wanting to avoid class-action lawsuits (how many has Valve had to deal with so far?) coudl still be achieved via other means...

Or is it...preparing to prevent class-action lawsuits, that could result in the future additional anti-consumer measures being suggested in-house.

 

[Speedymanic]

Intresting... just logged on to Steam; and went to the SSA. Appears mine has been updated without any option to opt in/out? (Either now or previously)

Australia btw


And realistically... how much of this is due to to the recent EU ruling on the first sale doctorine?

Wanting to avoid class-action lawsuits (how many has Valve had to deal with so far?) coudl still be achieved via other means...

If I'm reading this right, they opted you into the new ToS without asking your permission?

 

[Delusibeta]

Or is it...preparing to prevent class-action lawsuits, that could result in the future additional anti-consumer measures being suggested in-house.

Or, you know, Valve falling into line with the rest of America.

 

[GoofsterStud]

Or, you know, Valve falling into line with the rest of America.

Yet another Valve defender takes the bullet. You don't "fall into" by initiating the next step my friend.

 

[RustyO]

If I'm reading this right, they opted you into the new ToS without asking your permission?

Correct. Which wouldn't last in court here afaik.

 

[itxaka]

If I'm reading this right, they opted you into the new ToS without asking your permission?

It's in the TOS that they are not responsible if you don't get the new TOS terms. There is an xzibit joke in there, Im sure.

 

[Delusibeta]

Yet another Valve defender takes the bullet. You don't "fall into" by initiating the next step my friend.

No, they fell in line. Note the date. Note that Amazon.com has a similar clause since the middle of last year. Note that the frickin' Humble Bundle also has a similar clause. This is standard in America.

 

[alstein]

We obviously need to get more lawyers and judges hooked on gaming.

Where's Ultradavid when you need him.

 

[Pureauthor]

No, they fell in line. Note the date. Note that Amazon.com has a similar clause. Note that the frickin' Humble Bundle also has a similar clause. This is standard in America.

He's not talking about that. He's talking about Steam restricting your access to your games if you refuse to agree to the ToS.

Which, like I said before, still surprises me that so many people weren't even aware of this.

 

[GoofsterStud]

No, they fell in line. Note the date. Note that Amazon.com has a similar clause. Note that the frickin' Humble Bundle also has a similar clause. This is standard in America.

This again *sigh*

They are the only ones that remove access to previously purchased content. THE ONLY ONE

 

[RustyO]

It's in the TOS that they are not responsible if you don't get the new TOS terms. There is an xzibit joke in there, Im sure.

Cute, but not legally enforceable in my juridstiction (again, afaik, and Australia); and couldn't see that on a quick search anyway.

 

[Maleficence]

Fuck yeah Europe.

 

[itxaka]

Cute, but not legally enforceable in my juridstiction (again, afaik, and Australia); and couldn't see that on a quick search anyway.

Yeah, me neither. I am pretty sure it was there before but it's nowhere to be seen now. Strange

 

[Delusibeta]

This again *sigh*

They are the only ones that remove access to previously purchased content. THE ONLY ONE

I'm fairly sure they got rid of that for account bans. Look at all the people who got their accounts frozen for gifting during the sale, yet still could play their games. Previously they would have lost access to their games, now that doesn't happen.

Of course, if you want to delete your account wholesale, then you would lose access to any game on there, and I would wager the same would apply to Uplay, Origin, Gamestop and GameFly, and more than likely DRM'd games on Gamersgate as well.

 

[BrokenEchelon]

This is why I still buy physical copies of my games.

The only time when that isn't the case is when physical copies don't exist.

 

[GoofsterStud]

I'm fairly sure they got rid of that for account bans. Look at all the people who got their accounts frozen for gifting during the sale, yet still could play their games. Previously they would have lost access to their games, now that doesn't happen.

Of course, if you want to delete your account wholesale, then you would lose access to any game on there, and I would wager the same would apply to Uplay, Origin, Gamestop and GameFly, and more than likely DRM'd games on Gamersgate as well.

That is a different issue. The issue is those who don't accept the new terms can not install and play there previously purchased games. Even Origins allowed users to do that much.

 

[Won]

This again *sigh*

They are the only ones that remove access to previously purchased content. THE ONLY ONE

I'm curious. If that's such a big deal for you, why did you agree on it in the first place?

 

[GoofsterStud]

I'm curious. If that's such a big deal for you, why did you agree on it in the first place?

US law doesn't allow you to change terms that changes its monetary or one of your civil rights without further consent.

This is not legally part of the original term, as a result it breaks the original agreement as a civil right is in question.

Note: I disagreed with the new terms to protect a civil right and now can't play my games.

 

[wastedyears]

I keep feeling better and better about my choice not to purchase anything from Steam.

 

[RustyO]

I'm curious. If that's such a big deal for you, why did you agree on it in the first place?

Are you missing that people who don't agree to these terms are unable to play their games?

 

[CecilRousso]

This is why I still buy physical copies of my games.

The only time when that isn't the case is when physical copies don't exist.

Console gamer I guess? The safety of physical purchases of PC games is a lie unless you´re very careful and thorough with your research of your purchases and how they work.

I keep feeling better and better about my choice not to purchase anything from Steam.

Where do you usually buy your PC games? What´s your tolerance of other forms of server dependent DRM and activation limits? Do you accept uPlay and similiar platforms?

 

[Jackpot]

the apologists in this thread are amazing.

You really want your rights run over that much? You take to much for granted people.

Yes Valve can say in their TOS what they want. But tehy are not above the law and not only that you own a licence to own the game.

You do not own the game, but you also do not own the game if you buy a physical copy. The company owns the game as that is the source code.

You own a licence to use the game legally. They cannot just take that away (well in this land called Australia anyway... Americans clearly don't give a fuck about consumer protection) without some level of compensation.

Yes the jurisdiction of Australia may not apply but i am stunned how much americans let their rights trampled on. However considering that Valve specifically price for Australia and deal with Australian publishers sometimes, i'd say it does apply.

Their si a famous saying. Society only puts up with what it deems acceptable.

If you rise up and get angry, things change.......

But they make good games and I watched some video interviews with Gabe. That must mean they're my friends and not a company!

 

[wildfire]

This is why I still buy physical copies of my games.

The only time when that isn't the case is when physical copies don't exist.

Well in your case you have a higher chance of successfully suing the publisher.

 

[Wix]

Maybe the next ToS will require you to perform oral on random valve employees once a month.

 

[Yagharek]

US law doesn't allow you to change terms that changes its monetary or one of your civil rights without further consent.

This is not legally part of the original term, as a result it breaks the original agreement as a civil right is in question.

Note: I disagreed with the new terms to protect a civil right and now can't play my games.

Bravo for putting your money where your mouth is. Good luck getting a refund.

 

[Delusibeta]

US law doesn't allow you to change terms that changes its monetary or one of your civil rights without further consent.

This is not legally part of the original term, as a result it breaks the original agreement as a civil right is in question.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Supreme Court's repealed that. Certainly, they've repealed the idea that a class action lawsuit is a civil right.