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most of the bible today has been corrupted over the past centuries by the vatican with removals and additions but there are traces which are original to it. Studying the bible it does not deny gay marriage but suggests strongly that sex comes after marriage and gay sex is the one which is expicitly forbidden thus by proxy gay marriage is not allowed. its by proxy not as a direct statement. this is ironic though as many devout christians have sex before marriage and defy that suggests outright.

The point is rather that what the Bible has to say on the matter is irrelevant and always has been, such is why the law was able to change in the first place. The Bible never had the power to enforce its word, only the rule of law.

 

[afternoon delight]

Any Jewish, Muslim, Mormon, or JWitness equivalents out there? I don't have Facebook so I am excluded from the post grind.

 

[boiled goose]

It's probably worth discussing this broadly, frankly.

That statement is about as unjudgmental as one can possibly be if you espouse the beliefs that person holds.

One might make the argument that it is not possible to be unjudgmental when you are against something like homosexuality.

Maybe that's true, but I'm not sure, so let's talk about it. As another example, many/most Christians also believe that not accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior is a mortal sin. Do you feel this is arrogant and judgmental as well?

Maybe it is, but then, we're basically objecting to the entire concept of religion at this point: they believe certain things are true as an article of faith.

Belief in sin forces you to judge. Someone is not living up to the standards of your sky god. It is a judgement

 

[ThankYouDaletech]

You can be disappointed in someone, or have an issue with a fundamental part of their being and still like or respect them, and not judge them for it. This should not be a difficult concept.

Also aggressively forcing your views upon people and attempting to marginalize their beliefs and opinions because they are not your own is exactly what is happening right now across social media. Pro marriage equality folks are using the fact that their opinion will be on the right side of history as an excuse to do the exact same thing they claim religious conservatives do.

So I guess what I'm saying is that everyone is being a smug douchebag and everyone is wrong.

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

Just a lot of pan rattling. They will have to realize that it simply doesn't matter what they think anymore.

It's over. We won. Go on with your day.

Pretty much. They are entitled to their opinions, but their religious beliefs should have zero influence on politics.

Christians despise Sharia law, yet they want basically the exact same thing. I'm not saying Christians are hypocritical, but it's interesting to think about.

 

[KidJr]

Not all judgment is equal. Outta here with this "tolerance is intolerant" nonsense.



Because posting that blithe little bit of hatred for someone's identity (and it is hatred, make no mistake) says a tremendous amount about the person posting it. These people can't even keep their mouth shut about it. It's saying that they have to let you, their supposed friends know that they are going to hate and judge (and they are judging, no matter what their meme macro says) an integral part of your very self because of cherry-picked lines from a collection of Bronze Age desert superstitions, 95% of which they don't even know in the first place, let alone follow as doctrine. It's absolutely ridiculous. And in most cases I suspect it's actually just an excuse to continue disliking something they think is "gross."

And if you're still confused, imagine the same meme posting, but instead of homosexuality, imagine the "sin" in question is being black. If it's not clear after that, I don't know what else to tell you.

Ah see and no that makes total about the sin part and if thats how you feel then yeah that does suck!

 

[InsaneZero]

The one other thing that is appalling about this specific image is that it tries to state that other people should considerate of their own feelings. Aside from the usual "please be considerate of my inconsiderate nature" implication, this message is an appeal to people to be supportive of their actions.

The entire basis of this religion is a guy that went out of his way to care for murderers and prostitutes regardless of what other people thought of him. Condemning people's actions and then trying to convince people of their own righteousness goes directly in the face of that.

 

[Pepiope]

I really don't see why this is a hard thing to understand.

Why is it impossible to think something is morally wrong, but still support the right for someone to do it?

I would think there are a lot of Christian morals that fall under this area, including plenty of the "Ten Commandments", for example profaning God's name, disrespecting your parents, ignoring the Sabbath, committing adultery, coveting, lying, etc.

That's not even getting into things like premarital sex, ignoring the needs of others, or calling your brother a fool.

Are they actually supporting the right to do it?

I've seen this pop up and afterwards the same individual would say that we need to get back to biblical law. That doesn't sound like much support.

 

[Future]

It's probably worth discussing this broadly, frankly.

That statement is about as unjudgmental as one can possibly be if you espouse the beliefs that person holds.

One might make the argument that it is not possible to be unjudgmental when you are against something like homosexuality.

Maybe that's true, but I'm not sure, so let's talk about it. As another example, many/most Christians also believe that not accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior is a mortal sin. Do you feel this is arrogant and judgmental as well?

Maybe it is, but then, we're basically objecting to the entire concept of religion at this point: they believe certain things are true as an article of faith.

Using religion as a shield to promote intolerant beliefs should not be tolerated. Either the religion evolves or we turn it into a relic of the old days like Greek myths.

 

[TheOctodad]

People who think ministers are going to be forced to marry gay couples are buying into some Fox News bullshit. A church can (and does) refuse to marry anyone they want. I know of people who have been turned away because their marriage counseling sessions revealed the relationship to be toxic (a far better reason than being gay to turn someone down, IMO).

Essentially you have a group of some (not all Christians) that still hold onto a narrative that America is a "Christian" nation. They perceive all of our "success" and "wealth" as a blessing for being "following God."

I think for a lot of these people this ruling pulled the rug out from under their idealized America. They perceived the US as the final bastion of Christian ethics among the first world nations. All the other nations were "godless atheist" and America was the stronghold of Christian morality. Now we are moving towards socialized healthcare and allowing gay marriage, how can they maintain the self-image of being a "special?"

This is all wrapped up in why we have groups that still want to believe in creationism, "traditional" marriage, etc. They truly believe that this is God's country (as long as we support Israel).

This takes a lot of work to unwind and many times it's impossible. These types of Christians have a lot of poor views of theology, eschatology, and concepts of the Bible. It has been so reinforced that it's become a tribalistic bubble that cannot move on unless it's shattered - which rarely happens with older people. It's very much seen as in groups and out groups. Outsiders are threats to our ways of life and we have to defend it at all costs. We see a lot of younger people that can navigate these complicated dynamics much easier and quickly transcend a tribalistic narrative, but I fear some older people are too set in their ways.

 

[Defuser]

I got to feel sorry for some of the christians who got lumped/dragged in by other christians making dumb outspoken actions and politically correct people . Damn if they do damn if they don't.

A good christian should believe god should decide and judge, one should not take actions in their own hands/enforce on others and should worry about themselves first since christians are sinners by default too.

 

[Siegcram]

You can be disappointed in someone, or have an issue with a fundamental part of their being and still like or respect them, and not judge them for it. This should not be a difficult concept.

Also aggressively forcing your views upon people and attempting to marginalize their beliefs and opinions because they are not your own is exactly what is happening right now across social media. Pro marriage equality folks are using the fact that their opinion will be on the right side of history as an excuse to do the exact same thing they claim religious conservatives do.

So I guess what I'm saying is that everyone is being a smug douchebag and everyone is wrong.

don't you guys get tired of trotting out the same bullshit arguments all the time?

 

[Kinyou]

"Do not support" is just too vague. I could interpret that as someone having a completely neutral stance on it but also as someone actively campaigning against it.

 

[excelsiorlef]

You can be disappointed in someone, or have an issue with a fundamental part of their being and still like or respect them, and not judge them for it. This should not be a difficult concept.

Also aggressively forcing your views upon people and attempting to marginalize their beliefs and opinions because they are not your own is exactly what is happening right now across social media. Pro marriage equality folks are using the fact that their opinion will be on the right side of history as an excuse to do the exact same thing they claim religious conservatives do.

So I guess what I'm saying is that everyone is being a smug douchebag and everyone is wrong.

This is absolutely not a both sides situation

 

[Terra]

I am so baffled that some people feel that they are entitled to decide who other people should be in love with.

 

[Air]

Belief in sin forces you to judge. Someone is not living up to the standards of your sky god. It is a judgement

Having a moral compass in general forces you to judge. Belief in morality is basically belief in sin. That there is a right and wrong way to do something.

 

[GustyGardens]

I saw this posted on my wall in response to a pro-gay marriage post. The same person that posted it also said, "Gross!" twice.

 

[Speevy]

I think you guys are going to have to come to grips with Christians begrudgingly accepting homosexuals getting married.

There's a lot less resistance to it than there could have been, and there will be still less with time.

There will probably be less violence committed because of the supreme court decision than there will be when the South Carolina flag finally comes down.

Christians know it's wrong to discriminate. They're just sour right now.

 

[diffusionx]

If you are a Christian who doesn't support same sex marriage this is the right attitude to have. Let God do the judging. The biggest problem is, IMO, just putting up this image. It's inherently narcissistic and self-serving

Sounds like people should should be more specific with their language, then, since I see all gay people being lumped together. Many Christians say that being gay is a sin. That would be like saying that liking the taste of a Meat Lover's pizza is a sin; you'd still be "guilty" of such a sin by merely existing, even if you never order one and eat it.

I don't think this is true. My general understanding of this is that being attracted to people of the same gender and acting upon it are two different things.

And this is true of all manner of sin, obviously the nature of temptation is a fundamental part of Christian doctrine. Adam and Eve, the apple, etc.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Any Jewish, Muslim, Mormon, or JWitness equivalents out there? I don't have Facebook so I am excluded from the post grind.

Muslim view:

Respect the law of the land
Dont discriminate against gay people and their marriage
view homosexual acts in same light as pre-marital and post marital sex, aka considered forbidden.


Most muslims are leaning in favor of epigenetics. The view that it is not the genes but what happens after the genes have been created and the fetus has the genes in sync. Epigenetics implies that homosexuality is not genetic and neither is it a choice but it is the process late in the fetal development which triggers the epigenes to work and establish sexual attraction, thus out of the control of the individual and post genetic

 

[Goro Majima]

I think the disconnect ultimately comes not from "I'm a Christian who believes in the Bible and not homosexual marriage" but from the implied "so everyone else should live like the Bible says and we should legislate as such".

If it was as simple as using the Bible as a guideline solely for the conduct of church members and believers, there wouldn't be as much conflict about all this. After all, how do Christians expect people to follow the Bible when they clearly don't believe in it?

 

[boiled goose]

Having a moral compass in general forces you to judge. Belief in morality is basically belief in sin. That there is a right and wrong way to do something.

Yes. Deaming something as immoral is a judgement.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

You can be disappointed in someone, or have an issue with a fundamental part of their being and still like or respect them, and not judge them for it. This should not be a difficult concept.

Also aggressively forcing your views upon people and attempting to marginalize their beliefs and opinions because they are not your own is exactly what is happening right now across social media. Pro marriage equality folks are using the fact that their opinion will be on the right side of history as an excuse to do the exact same thing they claim religious conservatives do.

So I guess what I'm saying is that everyone is being a smug douchebag and everyone is wrong.

That's nice, but that's not the actual message this image is presenting. Read it again, and this time pay attention to the last few sentences.

 

[ThankYouDaletech]

don't you guys get tired of trotting out the same bullshit arguments all the time?

Who are "You guys" ?

 

[lenos16]

Mehg, what's the problem? Of course they can believe that homosexuality is wrong, as long as it remains a believe and not turn into a witch hunt. I believe in public healthcare, that doesn't mean I will look down on people who absolutely hate it.

 

[TheOctodad]

And if you're still confused, imagine the same meme posting, but instead of homosexuality, imagine the "sin" in question is being black. If it's not clear after that, I don't know what else to tell you.

I'm totally on board with you. I think it's very close to how people handle racism. That said, many of the christians I know don't actually see same-sex-attraction as the sin, but the acting upon it. Therefore they differentiate racism as something they are born with and homosexual activities as a choice. Clearly there are flaws with this, but it's not a 1-1 comparison for them.

 

[afternoon delight]

Muslim view:

Respect the law of the land
Dont discriminate against gay people and their marriage
view homosexual acts in same light as pre-marital and post marital sex, aka considered forbidden.


Most muslims are leaning in favor of epigenetics. The view that it is not the genes but what happens after the genes have been created and the fetus has the genes in sync. Epigenetics implies that homosexuality is not genetic and neither is it a choice but it is the process late in the fetal development which triggers the epigenes to work and establish sexual attraction, thus out of the control of the individual but not genetic.

I meant more so do they have the same amount of unemployed time to sit around and make bad MSPaint slogans.

I don't think I've ever seen a sparkle text Torah quote of daily encouragement.

 

[archangelmorph]

So like...

I'm with the whole outrage theme...

But do we know that a Christian actually made that jpeg...?

Could just as easily been made by someone entirely non-conformant to that stance, just to troll/bait...

Just curious really since it would be funny if it wasn't even legit..

 

[Siegcram]

Who are "You guys" ?

the ones screaming for tolerance of their intolerance

 

[TheOctodad]

I think you guys are going to have to come to grips with Christians begrudgingly accepting homosexuals getting married.

There's a lot less resistance to it than there could have been, and there will be still less with time.

There will probably be less violence committed because of the supreme court decision than there will be when the South Carolina flag finally comes down.

Christians know it's wrong to discriminate. They're just sour right now.

Most christians I know are totally fine with gay marriage. It's just the older generation and some people who are scared to lose their jobs that aren't. Seriously, in 10-20 years only dying old churches will hold an anti-gay stance.

 

[boiled goose]

So like...

I'm with the whole outrage theme...

But do we know that a Christian actually made that jpeg...?

Could just as easily been made by someone entirely non-conformant to that stance, just to troll/bait...

Just curious really since it would be funny if it wasn't even legit..

False flag!

Regardless of who made it, apparently folks are using it though

 

[ThankYouDaletech]

the ones screaming for tolerance of their intolerance

Yes, because that's what I'm doing.

 

[afternoon delight]

Most christians I know are totally fine with gay marriage. It's just the older generation and some people who are scared to lose their jobs that aren't. Seriously, in 10-20 years only dying old churches will hold an anti-gay stance.

A polling of Millenial Republicans discussed on All Things Considered showed 6/10 supported gay marriage.... Not exactly a roaring consensus for basic inclusion.

 

[Siegcram]

Yes, because that's what I'm doing.

Glad you agree. Maybe you can stop now.

 

[InsaneZero]

Mehg, what's the problem? Of course they can believe that homosexuality is wrong, as long as it remains a believe and not turn into a witch hunt. I believe in public healthcare, that doesn't mean I will look down on people who absolutely hate it.

They can believe that homosexuality is wrong. But they consider themselves Christians, then they should already believe that they themselves did a whole of other wrong things.

There is no reason to single out one sin. There is no reason to want people to know that they don't approve of this one sin, nor is there reason to want people to understand their position. They have no standing to throw the first stone.

 

[Joeys_Rattata]

O dont know what to say about this topic or how to post or address it or have my thoughts shared on this topic. As I'm worried any questions I have may offend or I may come off as wrong but I guess if I cant discuss it on GAF where can I?

So my up bringing was heavily influenced by the bible, my dad is pretty famous pastor and to be honest I hated the whole thing (bar one or two things). Having stepped out "Christianity" and quickly realized the church isn't really much different to any other corporations out there... politics, ulterior or misguided motives, the want for status, power etc. and I'm speaking as someone who knows the inner workings of a particular denomination.

I guess the first thing I wanted to know, is I've been bought up to believe that marriage was between and a man and woman, as per says the Bible. I guess what I'm starting to realise is that "marriage" existed before this (providing you believe the world existed before In the beginning") but why such a push for marriage if you already have the same rights through civil partnerships?

What about religions that don't support marriage, are they legally obliged to marry same sex couples? This is a big thing for people I know who are still Christians (as alot of my close friends are) they believe this is a sign of the end of times blah blah blah... while I dont agree with all that jazz I do wonder if they would be forced into doing something that they didnt support?

And thirdly, why do people have such an issue with that Meme? I mean like someone said I disagree with a number of things a number of my friends do but that doesnt stop me being their friend? No one can tell me they agree with everything that any of their friends or S/O do, it's impossible, we're human and have differences etc.

Regardless even though its a bit odd for me seeing same sex marriage (again due to years of being indoctrinated) ... I really am happy for those it will involve, I can see how much it means to people so it can only be a good thing, there is no wrong that can come from love.

Since everyone seems to be focusing on the third question, I'll answer your first two.

Because civil unions are separate but equal, which has historically never worked. It's still saying gay people are second class citizens because they don't deserve real marriage, that's only for straight people, but hey, here's something else that's completely the same, we promise. Just like how that water fountain for black people is exactly the same as that water fountain for white people.

And no, churches and religious organizations aren't required to perform gay marriages. The only thing we're asking for is for the government to recognize our relationships as the same as straight people's relationships and give us all the same benefits, and that's what the Supreme Court ruled. The government and businesses can't discriminate and turn people away based on what religion you are, but the Catholic Church can refuse to marry people who aren't Catholic.

 

[TheOctodad]

A polling of Millenial Republicans discussed on All Things Considered showed 6/10 supported gay marriage.... Not exactly a roaring consensus for basic inclusion.

Milenial Republicans aren't the only group of young Christians.

Many of the young Christians I know are independent or democrats and they are becoming more vocal and influential.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Yes, because that's what I'm doing.

Also aggressively forcing your views upon people and attempting to marginalize their beliefs and opinions because they are not your own is exactly what is happening right now across social media. Pro marriage equality folks are using the fact that their opinion will be on the right side of history as an excuse to do the exact same thing they claim religious conservatives do.

So I guess what I'm saying is that everyone is being a smug douchebag and everyone is wrong.

.

 

[ThankYouDaletech]

Glad you agree. Maybe you can stop now.

For the record, gay marriage is great and I'm stoked for it. I just want people like you to look inward and discover that, despite being correct, you are also an insufferable asshole.

Who fucking cares? Gay marriage is legal now, and will remain legal forever until the end of time. The issue is done. Let those fools say/post whatever they fucking want. The majority doesn't give a shit.

You mean simply ignore people who are wrong and whose opinions don't matter? How will I make a public display of how great I am if I don't try and shout them down?

 

[XenodudeX]

Who fucking cares? Gay marriage is legal now, and will remain legal forever until the end of time. The issue is done. Let those fools say/post whatever they fucking want. The majority doesn't give a shit.

 

[Red Mage]

People should listen to Opiate here.

That is inherently impossible, given there are known contradictions.

Much of the Mosaic books were dealing specifically with Jewish customs and rules. As Gentile (Non-Jewish) believers, we are not bound by those, and never were.

most of the bible today has been corrupted over the past centuries by the vatican with removals and additions but there are traces which are original to it. Studying the bible it does not deny gay marriage but suggests strongly that sex comes after marriage and gay sex is the one which is expicitly forbidden thus by proxy gay marriage is not allowed. its by proxy not as a direct statement. this is ironic though as many devout christians have sex before marriage and defy that suggests outright.

According to Islam, Jesus came and confirmed the texts during his time right? Well, we now have the texts from that time period, and they're not 'corrupted.' We also have the NT from the time before Mohammad, and same issue. Whoops.

Muslim view:

Respect the law of the land
Dont discriminate against gay people and their marriage
view homosexual acts in same light as pre-marital and post marital sex, aka considered forbidden.


Most muslims are leaning in favor of epigenetics. The view that it is not the genes but what happens after the genes have been created and the fetus has the genes in sync. Epigenetics implies that homosexuality is not genetic and neither is it a choice but it is the process late in the fetal development which triggers the epigenes to work and establish sexual attraction, thus out of the control of the individual and post genetic

Wait, are you seriously trying to argue that you represent most Muslims with this?

 

[Speevy]

A polling of Millenial Republicans discussed on All Things Considered showed 6/10 supported gay marriage.... Not exactly a roaring consensus for basic inclusion.

6 out of 10 is a massive victory for people who have a book that they interpret as speaking ill of homosexuals.

Imagine if 6 out 10 dentists like a certain chocolate bar.

 

[afternoon delight]

Milenial Republicans aren't the only group of young Christians.

Fair enough. I'm hope by the time they're in office this saltiness will pass.

 

[Ketch]

Christianity's primary message is that every human being is flawed, and without the sacrifice of a sinless being (JC) it's impossible to come to reconciliation with God. It repeats the point that actions and deeds alone will not allow one to get into God's good graces, and only the belief in JC will be able to cut it.

Within that context, singling out one specific form of sin (homosexuality) is meaningless, as all sin is equally bad in God's eyes. Making a statement about how you don't approve of actions of gays/lesbians is nothing but hypocrisy, since that comes with the implication that you're standing on a moral high ground for not committing such a sin. The problem is that nobody has the moral high ground, so nobody has the right to explicitly state what people should or shouldn't be doing to be "lawfully" correct in this religion.

Every Christian by themselves are still sinners. But JC did not come to judge them but to die for them so that they could live. To really follow in that example, Christians should not be making statements about what people shouldn't or shouldn't do, but rather to show that they really love these people by talking directly to them, trying to work out their differences, and showing support for them regardless of what they feel about their actions. Supporting an image like this mostly shows how much these people care for their own appearances rather than how much they actually care for their own religion.

This is the best post in the thread so far. I'm stealing this to post on my own Facebook if you don't mind.

 

[CornBurrito]

Seeking out homosexual relationships is, though.

So is being African American in this case. Micheal Jackson had several surgeries, and bleached his skin. Show his picture to anyone who doesn't recognize him from before those surgeries and ask what race he is. They will say "white".

In my religion being of African American descent isn't wrong, but acting on it and not using the available tools to change your appearance to a less sinful form is.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

Pretty much. They are entitled to their opinions, but their religious beliefs should have zero influence on politics.

Christians despise Sharia law, yet they want basically the exact same thing. I'm not saying Christians are hypocritical, but it's interesting to think about.

There are some believers that truly do put social progress above their own personal beliefs, but the real discomfort from believers who resist social progress based on their belief system is due to the loss of influence and power of the belief system's mission to spread and convert.

It's a tug of war for them, and they know that they can't win popular opinion. Their influence is declining. Compassion, reason and logic are not on their side. That's why that belief system is so active in politics over the past few decades. So when social progress occurs due to an action by the government, they are especially upset.

 

[Speevy]

Who fucking cares? Gay marriage is legal now, and will remain legal forever until the end of time. The issue is done. Let those fools say/post whatever they fucking want. The majority doesn't give a shit.

Don't confuse the issue. The majority did give a shit, which is why they left it up to the supreme court, which rightly struck down all gay marriage bans.

 

[afternoon delight]

6 out of 10 is a massive victory for people who have a book that they interpret as speaking ill of homosexuals.

Imagine if 6 out 10 dentists like a certain chocolate bar.

I dunno, I see 60% as 'we're so divided we need a single person to be a tie breaker so as not to appear in favor of disgust'.

 

[Siegcram]

For the record, gay marriage is great and I'm stoked for it. I just want people like you to look inward and discover that, despite being correct, you are also an insufferable asshole.

Man, your world must be fucked if celebrating equality and ridiculing bigots makes you an insufferable asshole.

 

[pinkurocket]

I have a problem with the focus on marriage. How religious people take this as such an insult towards their tradition of this union that should be 'between man and woman.' Rather than focus on this, they need to start with trying to understand what sexuality actually is. Being straight it's pretty normal to not 'understand' homosexuality for various reasons. However it's not that difficult to understand if these people would just allow themselves to think a bit further than their close-minded views (which come from their upbringing). Just a little bit would go a long way.

It's always this back and forth between one thing being 'right' and the other 'wrong' ... So pointless. I know there are Christians that will accept homosexuality, but then suddenly gay sex is the sin. Why is that such an issue? It sounds like a silly excuse to me to sound 'accepting' while in reality hiding your true disgust within.