Geez Amnesia makes Siren look silly. Should have just stuck with Demon's Souls.Kuran said:Say that whenever the west tops Demon's Souls and Siren: New Translation.
Geez Amnesia makes Siren look silly. Should have just stuck with Demon's Souls.Kuran said:Say that whenever the west tops Demon's Souls and Siren: New Translation.
So why dont we grill Western devs for just being able to appeal to the West?Blackace said:Outside of his comments about being Ryoma, his points are very valid..
Global games are better for companies.. if you can have decent to good sales anywhere on the planet that is a good thing...
I love that a Japanese dev is a questioning how things are done and speaks his mind about it.
Kittonwy said:I'm not disagreeing with you, including ME2 which you agree is a tad overrated, I do think it's a decent game.
Coxswain said:The idea of D&D as anything approaching a good or deep combat system is just straight-up never-actually-thought-about-this-for-half-a-second crazy. That aside, while there is indeed a vanishingly small number of western RPGs that do manage to come up with good combat rules, once you skim off the cream from the Dragon Quest-alikes and the Nippon Ichi autism simulators, you've got a larger, much more diverse, and generally higher quality pool of RPG combat systems with the Japanese games.
HK-47 said:So why dont we grill Western devs for just being able to appeal to the West?
Rhazer Fusion said:I really do not understand the entire Western games are immensely better than Japanese games mentality that keeps getting regurgitated on a regular basis. Just because the games are selling better in the West doesn't necessarily mean they are quality or vastly superior to their Japanese competition. Is Gears of War is clearly beyond Vanquish for example? Are you telling me Bayonetta doesn't compare to God of War? If Western games were so idolized and great, can developers answer why Japan doesn't buy most of them?
Blackace said:Gears is clearly better than Vanquish
thetrin said:whooooa there!
Fimbulvetr said:Yeah I'd rather wait for Vanquish to actually exist within stores before I can judge it. :lol
The issues that D&D rules have are way too fundamental for either of those games to overcome. With a good enough design team you might be able to make something using it that manages to just barely squeak over the bar of 'fun', but that doesn't make bad mechanics any less bad so much as make a game that's marginally enjoyable despite the underlying mechanics. You can polish a turd until you can see your reflection in it, but that's no excuse for not using a mirror.HK-47 said:Temple of Elemental Evil and Icewind Dale say yes D&D can make good combat.
Coxswain said:The issues that D&D rules have are way too fundamental for either of those games to overcome. With a good enough design team you might be able to make something using it that manages to just barely squeak over the bar of 'fun', but that doesn't make bad mechanics any less bad so much as make a game that's marginally enjoyable despite the underlying mechanics. You can polish a turd until you can see your reflection in it, but that's no excuse for not using a mirror.
God of War isn't that good either. It did help bring beat-em-ups back into vogue though. I'll give it that. And an A+++ on presentation.jmdajr said:God of War isn't bad
Not really. The simple act of taking a game numerically simple enough to be kept track of by tabletop and attaching it to a random dice roll calibrated such that the chance of success for any given action is meant to be 50-50 against an even challenge means that so much weight is given to the random number generator that a player can make the exact same inputs in the exact same situation and get wildly different results each time with no particular regularity, effectively removing the point of having a player in the first place. It's compounded by an early game where a lot of characters can be taken down in one move through no fault of the player, and a mid-to-late game that skews both ways where both winning and losing rests pretty much entirely on who makes their saving throw, with comparatively little weight given to how well the game is played. When it's not 50-50, through specialization or luck, things get worse, because ability effects are designed with unreliability in mind and teeter precariously back and forth between being overwhelming and useless. Add on to that some astonishingly poor intra and inter-class balance and oodles of nonsensical legacy mechanics carried over increasingly awkwardly from version to version for no good reason besides that they were present in tabletop games in the 70s and 80s, and yeah that's basically a shit sandwich with all the fixin's.HK-47 said:Except they are both fine combat games, regardless.
Coxswain said:Not really. The simple act of taking a game numerically simple enough to be kept track of by tabletop and attaching it to a random dice roll calibrated such that the chance of success for any given action is meant to be 50-50 against an even challenge means that so much weight is given to the random number generator that a player can make the exact same inputs in the exact same situation and get wildly different results each time with no particular regularity, effectively removing the point of having a player in the first place. It's compounded by an early game where a lot of characters can be taken down in one move through no fault of the player, and a mid-to-late game that skews both ways where both winning and losing rests pretty much entirely on who makes their saving throw, with comparatively little weight given to how well the game is played. When it's not 50-50, through specialization or luck, things get worse, because ability effects are designed with unreliability in mind and teeter precariously back and forth between being overwhelming and useless. Add on to that some astonishingly poor intra and inter-class balance and oodles of nonsensical legacy mechanics carried over increasingly awkwardly from version to version for no good reason besides that they were present in tabletop games in the 70s and 80s, and yeah that's basically a shit sandwich with all the fixin's.
I don't know what games you're comparing it to, but neither game would make my top quintile for RPG combat, even if I was left entirely to pick through the scraps of WRPGs.
Both, although I recognize that the former, in moderation, is probably a necessary evil that we won't be getting entirely rid of any time soon; the latter, though, that shit (and I single out D&D here because it's most prolific, but really mostly anything derived from or inspired by tabletop rules) makes those games unplayable.jman2050 said:Are you saying you have a problem with random chance in a game system? Or is it simply that D&D systems lean way too far into the random side?
HK-47 said:If Case Zero is any indication, DR2 will probably sell well. And if it doesnt , it probably wont be from being a bad game.
Coxswain said:The issues that D&D rules have are way too fundamental for either of those games to overcome. With a good enough design team you might be able to make something using it that manages to just barely squeak over the bar of 'fun', but that doesn't make bad mechanics any less bad so much as make a game that's marginally enjoyable despite the underlying mechanics. You can polish a turd until you can see your reflection in it, but that's no excuse for not using a mirror.
What about the contradiction between his Shadow of Rome comments and the Resident Evil comments?Blackace said:Outside of his comments about being Ryoma, his points are very valid..
Segata Sanshiro said:What about the contradiction between his Shadow of Rome comments and the Resident Evil comments?
Do you really think it's valid that all it takes to sell in the west is to have an American main character who speaks English? I mean, if so, there we go, easy solution to a difficult problem.
Even though you didn't say so, I'm going to assume you're with me on the idea that Resident Evil sold in the west for more reasons (and more important reasons) than simply having an American main character. It's a ridiculously simple assessment and it shows that Inafune has no understanding at all of what Western gamers look for and appreciate in a game.Blackace said:Of course it isn't that simple, but it helps.
It is time for Japan game companies to think more globally...
Does that mean DQXIIIIIIAHHETTAII won't get made? no..
does that mean bald space marines will be in it? I hope not
But you can see it in the move that SE have made in purchasing EDIOS... now Kane and Lynch gets front billing in Yodobashi, Deus Ex gets 5 pages in famitsu.. and they have a chance to sell well globally outside of their key franchises....
Segata Sanshiro said:Even though you didn't say so, I'm going to assume you're with me on the idea that Resident Evil sold in the west for more reasons (and more important reasons) than simply having an American main character. It's a ridiculously simple assessment and it shows that Inafune has no understanding at all of what Western gamers look for and appreciate in a game.
Don't get me wrong, I think there's a problem and it needs to be addressed, but I think Keiji Inafune has absolutely no idea how to even go about fixing it and his comments show that. He has a blind love for another culture and we all know how that can affect someone's perception of reality.
I give him points for standing up and saying something. But literally everything that followed standing up has been detrimental to actually addressing the problem.Blackace said:The proof is in this thread.
I think he made plenty of good points even through his muddled points.
I wish some of my friends from the industry here would speak up about how tech is handled in Japan.. a lot of the stories told are shocking..
He is Capcom's main tentpole at the moment.Voyevoda007 said:How does this guy not get fired?.
Coxswain said:Both, although I recognize that the former, in moderation, is probably a necessary evil that we won't be getting entirely rid of any time soon;
Voyevoda007 said:How does this guy not get fired?.
Blackace said:First of all, up until now a lot of games didn't get any face time. Western games were in the corner of the stores while Japanese games took front row.. it is the same reason why some great Japanese games don't sell in the west.. nobody knows about them.
Gears is clearly better than Vanquish.. But that doesn't make Western games better than Japanese games by default.
From the demo I thought vanquished was a piece of poo.... But to each it's own.Rhazer Fusion said:Not from what I've played. Vanquished felt more polished, fluid and stylish imo and I am a big Gears of War fan. We will see with Gears of War 3 though.
Voyevoda007 said:How does this guy not get fired?.
Blackace said:Fire somebody for saying we need to make better games and sell more worldwide... Pfft
Six million plus is a pretty exclusive club for the whole world, though, not just Japan.infinityBCRT said:Its not just scores but sales and mass market appeal that is the issue with Japanese gaming. Nintendo can continually do it with their first party titles, but how many third party Japanese titles can sell 6+ million copies?
The last Japanese megahit (outside of Nintendo) that I can think of is Metal Gear Solid 2. Theres the Final Fantasys too I guess. Would be interesting to see the numbers on that series.
infinityBCRT said:Its not just scores but sales and mass market appeal that is the issue with Japanese gaming. Nintendo can continually do it with their first party titles, but how many third party Japanese titles can sell 6+ million copies?
The last Japanese megahit (outside of Nintendo) that I can think of is Metal Gear Solid 2. Theres the Final Fantasys too I guess. Would be interesting to see the numbers on that series.
Agree. Didn't DMC2 outsold 1 and 3?Fimbulvetr said:FF XIII is on 5.5 mill WW and that game was disappointing as fuck, so this pretty clearly has jack all to do with scores and quality and everything to do with some combination of appeal and hype.
You can argue which one pushes more sales(between appeal and hype). I think it's the latter.
Blackace said:Fire somebody for saying we need to make better games and sell more worldwide... Pfft
Oh, so the really smart plan is to fire people until magically, the super-selling-games makers team appears in your office? Doesn't really sound too great, to be honest.Relaxed Muscle said:Maybe for being behind bombs like Lost PLanet 2, Bionic Commando and Dark Void?
wmat said:Oh, so the really smart plan is to fire people until magically, the super-selling-games makers team appears in your office? Doesn't really sound too great, to be honest.
Segata Sanshiro said:Yeah, you don't fire guys like that. You just stick them in an office in the basement and don't let them touch the money pile anymore. Right, Yu Suzuki? Haha, don't worry, you don't have to answer, nobody's listening anyway.
Zeitgeister said:right.
motherfuckersSegata Sanshiro said:Yeah, you don't fire guys like that. You just stick them in an office in the basement and don't let them touch the money pile anymore. Right, Yu Suzuki? Haha, don't worry, you don't have to answer, nobody's listening anyway.
infinityBCRT said:Its not just scores but sales and mass market appeal that is the issue with Japanese gaming. Nintendo can continually do it with their first party titles, but how many third party Japanese titles can sell 6+ million copies?