DidntKnowJack
Member
Since you post on GAF, yes.
Of course, that's only if you regard Kotaku as games journalism.
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Insomniac: Overstrike focus groups thought the old art style was for kids
- Thread starter Tagg9
- Start date
Of course, that's only if you regard Kotaku as games journalism.
whalleywhat
Member
You're better.
BoilersFan23
Member
In case some have forgotten, the entire reason Insomniac made R2 that way it was (like with the two weapons instead of the weapon wheel) was because of "focus groups". IMO, Insomniac should just not use them.
How about actually talking directly to your fans? You know since that is what some people actually get paid for as community mangers etc. Why not just gauge fans reactions of forums or ask them on twitter or facebook what they think? Hell I mean look at this thread and all the negativity surrounding the art style change. Is it so hard to actually look for feedback without needing to resort to focus groups that don't actually know what they want?
You have my sword.
jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
1000% not true
jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
Gonna keep reposting it because folks don't seem to be getting it.
This (ie, Brian Allgeier's comments) relates to the original pitch -> Overstrike iterations / evolution process.
It does not refer to the Overstrike -> Fuse iteration / evolution process.
This (ie, Brian Allgeier's comments) relates to the original pitch -> Overstrike iterations / evolution process.
It does not refer to the Overstrike -> Fuse iteration / evolution process.
Why bring this up when there is pretty much no information around about the original pitch? Would you be willing to share more details about that version?
TimeEffect
Member
First, thanks for putting up with the thread.
Second, I really want to know more about the original pitch, but I somehow think that'd be a bad idea for you guys
Just promise me you guys haven't forgotten your roots and you will go back to them after all of this is said and done
I miss you guys.jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
Nope. It was a history of Insomniac piece. The interview was pre-Fuse reveal (Colin hadn't even seen the game when we had that interview). It asked how things had evolved from the original pitch.
We feel confident in the changes in that it's made a better game and provided a big creative spark for us.
papersleeves
Member
Great article from IGN. I'm enjoying the read.
SteveWinwood
Member
You know what makes valve games so good?
Focus testing.
It's not focus groups that are the problem, it's how you handle and interpret the criticism.
Instead of saying, oh they say this is a problem, let's remove it/completely change it! Try to get to the root of why it's a problem. But they have deadlines and workflow or whatever and it just doesn't work out.
Focus testing.
It's not focus groups that are the problem, it's how you handle and interpret the criticism.
Instead of saying, oh they say this is a problem, let's remove it/completely change it! Try to get to the root of why it's a problem. But they have deadlines and workflow or whatever and it just doesn't work out.
Ventilaator
Banned
Valve is also pretty good at not being an idiot with the results, so that's not really the same thing. Focus testing alone isn't the problem here.
So much creativity that you decided to make it look like every other game out there instead of doing something bold.
But I feel ya. The last time a game's design language mixed cartoony visuals, dark humor, ultra-violence, and crazy guns was Borderlands, and we all know how that turned out for Gearbox. Best not to risk it and wind up like them!
TimeEffect
Member
You mean from Original Proposal --> OverStrike? If so, didn't you lose that creativity with OverStrike -> Fuse? Don't you miss the creative designs of your characters? Why are they all so dull now?
Isabelle and Jacob are the most striking to me... pun intended.
Wasn't there a way to keep the creativity of the art style while maintaining the creativity you now had in the gameplay? Don't you feel that this game will get lost with the rest of them? I feel the character design is a big part of this as people looking at this game have to be sold on explosions and co-op features over the characters who genuinely looked to tell an interesting enough story. I mean, looking at that Fuse trailer, they are so lifeless, but the Overstrike trailer's animated characters were just so great-- the Ratchet and Clank/Pixar/TF2-esque animations really are something that I dont see much in games, and I really did think it added expression and interest to the characters that people can relate to. Now I just see four people shooting guns, and no matter how good the features may be, I think you lost the ability to sell to people who want to play as the characters.
SteveWinwood
Member
Ploid 3.0
Member
I have a feeling that the gear unlocks will look very cool, and the stuff the characters are wearing in the new trailer is what you start with which are better off looking a bit boring. When you see other higher level people in screens or in game you'd be motivated to want the upgrades on your own character. It may be in spoiler territory but for trailers it would probably be best to show off the better looking stuff.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
The worst misuse of focus testing is on more niche titles, as the chances of random people who would conciously elucidate a favorable reaction to something they've never experienced before is rare. Niches by their definition are going to be maybe one person in the room (hence the crowding into the sophomoric realism segment of the industry as some kind of ticket to sales paradise).
Ploid 3.0
Member
Borderlands was my poor Resistance 2 Co op fix. I really wanted Insomniac to jump on the FPS loot thing but now it seems like Borderlands took over that first spot because it went further with it (making it the main game, and it's already on part 2). R2's co op was something big. Borderlands don't have the magic, well I couldn't really test online much, my friends was not on my Borderland's list. Darn glitch.
In R2 people just joined lobbies with thirst for exp and killing. It was glorious!
BoilersFan23
Member
I could have sworn I remember there being a focus group for Resistance 2, where it was determined that they had/preferred switching between two weapons vs. the weapon wheel.
To be fair, a lot of the reason why EA Partners titles has ended up being a bust for developers was because of the inverse relationship of how Brutal Legend was advertised (very heavily) and how much it actually ended up doing (very little), especially since it had a large budget. EA has since taken that to mean "why bother," hence their near complete lack of support for subsequent games.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Team Fortress 2 is for 12 yr olds with OCD and those that are Meth Addicts.
Borderlands is for 10 yr old Gunsmiths.
Sexy Cole from Infamous 2 was too much of a heartthrob.
Borderlands is for 10 yr old Gunsmiths.
Sexy Cole from Infamous 2 was too much of a heartthrob.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Oh man, i was actually happier when i thought it was EA who forced them to change it. Because i always thought Insomniac will do their own thing when the opportunity arises. Now Insomniac is ran by focus groups
jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
Oh man, i was actually happier when i thought it was EA who forced them to change it. Because i always thought Insomniac will do their own thing when the opportunity arises. Now Insomniac is ran by focus groups
not even remotely true
Ploid 3.0
Member
I remember reading about the decision to go to 2 weapons but I don't remember what that reason was. He knows, I'll take his word for it. I remember people on the forum mentioning Halo at the time, darn the cloudy memory. Maybe it wasn't really specified what lead to the decision to use 2 weapons max, or maybe it was said that the designers wanted to create interesting battles so wanted more control of what weapon the player had.
JS knows though.
jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
I don't remember any specific focus groups around that. That whole decision was heavily debated internally, but I don't think there was user research on it. If there was any it would've maybe been usability / gameplay testing. Regardless, the decision was not made due to user research or a focus group. Not even close.
PartTimeWarrior
Banned
@JS, is there any chance Insomniac will try an idea like Overstrike again?
RE4 went through four of them before we got the masterpiece that we did, and one of them was spun off into a whole new IP!
Granted, I don't think that Fuse will come remotely close to reaching such heights, but it's not entirely without precedent.
RobotRocker
Member
The amount of games with potential getting focus grouped to death this gen is staggering. I remember focus groups led to us getting Bad Spencer and a crummy "Serious" Bionic Commando (Of which the developers had a meltdown and just went full Gainax at the end because "Fuck Capcom Management").
Though I wonder if its more damning of Insomiac for being cowards in the face of public focus group pressure, the industry in general for trying to "keep up with the Joneses" and releasing the same kind of game instead of innovating and taking risks or the public for only being interested in playing the same game over and over.
Also damning. Letting 12 year olds dictate a M-Rated game and expecting THEM to play it when it changes to a M-Rating. That is comical levels of irresponsibility.
Though I wonder if its more damning of Insomiac for being cowards in the face of public focus group pressure, the industry in general for trying to "keep up with the Joneses" and releasing the same kind of game instead of innovating and taking risks or the public for only being interested in playing the same game over and over.
Also damning. Letting 12 year olds dictate a M-Rated game and expecting THEM to play it when it changes to a M-Rating. That is comical levels of irresponsibility.
EatinOlives
Member
No offense, but do you know how games are made?
Especially when it comes to a new IP, the game goes through a ton of revisions before the studio settles on a final product. Revising the IP twice before settling on it means nothing.
That said, I'm pretty disappointed they ended up choosing a generic shooter look. Looks like Insomniac pulled an anti-Gearbox/Valve. Rather than take the generic game and make it look unique, they took the unique revision and made it generic.
jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
what do you mean "like Overstrike"? Do you mean try a more stylized idea rather than a realistic one?
Most definitely.
jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
Monster Knight -> Girl with a Stick -> Ratchet & Clank
Resistance as futuristic space opera -> Resistance as WWI era shooter -> Resistance set in 1950s.
Welcome to the real world of game IP development. Even Outernauts went through insane iteration from its early version
Maybe its just me but Fuse looks like a linear 4 player co-op Mercenaries with crazy weapons. Am I off base?
yeah, it is kind of hilarious that people not old enough to purchase the product from the store are allowed to dictate the direction of the product. Hell, they have to be at least 13 to buy a T rated game lol
PartTimeWarrior
Banned
I hope we get to see it pass focus group hell next time
Yea, I can imagine:
Pokemon in space -> Farmville in Space -> Pokemon+Farmville in Space.
TimeEffect
Member
Oh, fantastic, then I'll happily ride out the storm. Maybe I'll pick up Fuse if the gameplay is as good as it is... more so if it has split screen, but I'm just happy to know that you guys aren't completely gone in the other direction
papersleeves
Member
I know I still feel weird about it.
Angelcurio
Member
Inmsomniac has had too many issues during this whole gen.
Resistance was awesome (played that for years with Gaf clan), but Resistance 2 came out and had so many bugs in the single player campaign that i ended up selling my CE.
Resistance 3 came out and even though i even listed as my GOTY here, i had experienced LOTs of bugs during the single player campaign, then during the offline coop campaign my game locked up and even though i posted it on the Insomniac forums, i never got an answer and had to end up trying countless times to replicate the bug until i saw that the problem was with related with the stats tracking system for your offline coop partner.
Also, there was a huge problem about your game data taking up to an hour to delete from the ps3 HDD. And that's without mentioning that R&CF Tools of Destruction and Quest for Booty never got trophies patch in.
Sometimes it seems that Insomniac simply ignores the fans voices when it comes to actual and real criticism with their games. When it comes with the art style change from Overstrike to fuse, they simply made and make it look generic shooter #711. I know this is a forum, and that this is the Internet, but i personally think that making a game look generic, actually screams bomba all over the place.
Resistance was awesome (played that for years with Gaf clan), but Resistance 2 came out and had so many bugs in the single player campaign that i ended up selling my CE.
Resistance 3 came out and even though i even listed as my GOTY here, i had experienced LOTs of bugs during the single player campaign, then during the offline coop campaign my game locked up and even though i posted it on the Insomniac forums, i never got an answer and had to end up trying countless times to replicate the bug until i saw that the problem was with related with the stats tracking system for your offline coop partner.
Also, there was a huge problem about your game data taking up to an hour to delete from the ps3 HDD. And that's without mentioning that R&CF Tools of Destruction and Quest for Booty never got trophies patch in.
Sometimes it seems that Insomniac simply ignores the fans voices when it comes to actual and real criticism with their games. When it comes with the art style change from Overstrike to fuse, they simply made and make it look generic shooter #711. I know this is a forum, and that this is the Internet, but i personally think that making a game look generic, actually screams bomba all over the place.
RobotRocker
Member
Its even more disturbing that the assumption is that they will play it themselves anyway, even with an M-Rating, so they let them dictate the product. Insomniac may as well just shit in the ESRB's letterbox at this stage. Responsible parenting? Fuck that! Buy our game!
And then it'll get focusgrouped to mediocrity, too.
Cant wait to play another creative dude bro shooter!!!
Jacksonlee
Member
if naughtyDog fell as hard as Insomniac, i would be sad as well.
thank god i only respected them as a creative team although i did not enjoy their games.
now i just dont enjoy their games, and they've lost my respect.
not that it matters to them, anyways.
thank god i only respected them as a creative team although i did not enjoy their games.
now i just dont enjoy their games, and they've lost my respect.
not that it matters to them, anyways.
Same here, too bad it lost its appeal from the looks of it.
jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
Not sure what the deal there was, but sorry about that.
That was a PS3 OS system bug. It wasn't caught until after the game shipped, even by Sony QA. Lame bug i know, but the way our install was set up made it impossible to fix easily. Kept trying to send that bug up to SCE but never got corrected. It is super lame though.
I've mentioned it before, but it's not even possible for those two games. They were built with no connection to the PSN. If it was even technically remotely possible, we might've done it. Even then, if we do something like that it requires pulling people off current new games to make changes to the old one.
We never ignore fan voices. Resistance 3 is evidence of that, upcoming changes to Outernauts are evidence of that, what we've done with Ratchet is evidence of that. Even where we go from here with Fuse will be evidence of that. I think it's been well established that we listen, but we're also up-front and pretty transparent about why we can or can't do certain things.
Kind of? I'd say it's a four-player class-based cover shooter co-op game, with a big progression system, four unique classes that really do need to work together, alongside an over-the-top story, villains and some great characters.
It's its own thing, with its own feel. And it's a heck of a co-op game.