Support NeoGAF

[Len Dontree]

I try to grab snacks, use the rest room, and such when I get to the install part but it's over before I know it.

Don't forget, it's the perfect time to change a diaper too!

 

[sykoex]

Are you sure about that? I could have sworn there were some sections in Act 2 that exceeded any area in Uncharted in terms of size.

Weren't the European town areas at the beginning of act 3 pretty damn big?

 

[traveler]

Weren't the European town areas at the beginning of act 3 pretty damn big?

Yeah, but the map gives the illusion of them being bigger than they actually are, since the town, while shown in its entirety on the pause screen, is actually divided up into several zones you have to load seperately.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Are you sure about that? I could have sworn there were some sections in Act 2 that exceeded any area in Uncharted in terms of size.

Weren't the European town areas at the beginning of act 3 pretty damn big?

with or without loading screens?

 

[urk]

Yeah, but the map gives the illusion of them being bigger than they actually are, since the town, while shown in its entirety on the pause screen, is actually divided up into several zones you have to load seperately.

Exactly. You're loading between each segment. The loaded portion of each segment you play is pretty small compared to most games. They aren't the huge expansive playable spaces everyone wants to make them out to be. We're talking loads here. The levels are subdivided by them while plenty of other games - titles with amazing graphics and gameplay - are plenty capable of lengthier gameplay sections between loads with no installation, let alone multiple installations required.

 

[traveler]

Exactly. You're loading between each segment. The loaded portion of each segment you play is pretty small compared to most games. They aren't the huge expansive playable spaces everyone wants to make them out to be. We're talking loads here. The levels are subdivided by them while plenty of other games - titles with amazing graphics and gameplay - are plenty capable of lengthier gameplay sections between loads with no installation, let alone multiple installations required.

You're right for the most part, but I still think some (or, at least, one) of the areas in Act 2 were bigger than anything we'd seen in Uncharted.

 

[LukeSmith]

It's not the loading between Acts that are disappointing in Metal Gear Solid 4. They are almost a welcome reprieve from the intensity found in the game. It's the 10-15 second, immersion-breaking, black screen loads throughout the game -- especially disappointing during long, scripted sequences.

 

[urk]

You're right for the most part, but I still think some (or, at least, one) of the areas in Act 2 were bigger than anything we'd seen in Uncharted.

Eh, so let's operate under the assumption that MGS4 boasts a couple of sections that are bigger than Uncharted's and quite a few that are smaller. Uncharted is doing it without installation or loading. This isn't meant as a direct comparison between the two titles, but it's pretty damning in terms of the multiple installations required by MGS4 coupled with the fact that it still needs frequent loads.

Anyone know how many installs and loads total in the game? I would guess 50+.

 

[shantyman]

I replayed Act 2 after starting Act 3 and realized this has nothing to do with loading. When I started act 2 again it reinstalled it, which clearly means previous acts are removed to clear space. I can only guess how immense the install would be if it were for all 5 acts.

EDIT: I don't meant o say it did not improve loading but I think the impetus for the per act installs was to cut down the total install size.

 

[bloody pirate]

(neutral) cjelly
Banned
(Today, 10:35 AM)


why?

 

[Xabora]

Did Ratchet need a disc install? I do not remember if it did.

Yup, opening movie on singleplayer start was the install.

 

[Y2Kev]

Yup, opening movie on singleplayer start was the install.

It's more like a cache. Uncharted does have the same style of cache. Even Halo 1 caches on the Xbox.

 

[Ceb]

It's not the loading between Acts that are disappointing in Metal Gear Solid 4. They are almost a welcome reprieve from the intensity found in the game. It's the 10-15 second, immersion-breaking, black screen loads throughout the game -- especially disappointing during long, scripted sequences.

10-15 seconds? Now, I haven't timed them or anything, but there's no way they're that long. I still find the whole "press start" prompt to be an odd decision though, since you can easily pause both cutscenes and gameplay now.

 

[dammitmattt]

10-15 seconds? Now, I haven't timed them or anything, but there's no way they're that long. I still find the whole "press start" prompt to be an odd decision though, since you can easily pause both cutscenes and gameplay now.

I said 5-10 seconds, so let's split the difference and say 10. Regardless, it's annoying that they are there AFTER going through the installations.

It's more like a cache. Uncharted does have the same style of cache. Even Halo 1 caches on the Xbox.

And yet many modern games can't/won't do that. It boggles. my mind.

 

[The Faceless Master]

i didn't time all of them, or even most, but the loading was anywhere from 4-18 seconds between segments. most on the low end.

 

[JudgeN]

This topic is terrible in the grand scheme of things we call life, what is 3 minute install per act? I mean really I'm a computer tech for my company, I spend all day doing installs. I spend and extra 20 minutes in my car every morning in traffic. We all do stuff with wait time but everyone upset over a 3 minute install per Act in MGS 4? I mean really? Out of all the time we waste during our lives you all have no patience whatsoever? I feel bad for you people, the real question you all should be asking is why it takes Capcom 23 minutes to install 4.6gigs while it takes MGS4 7 minutes.

 

[Slurmer]

The only time it bothered me was when it was sandwiched between a giant cutscene and a very long mission briefing. Other than that I was fine with them, mainly because the game was so damn good.

Maybe if this actually does become a trend it will bother me. One game though? I'm cool with it.

 

[dammitmattt]

This topic is terrible in the grand scheme of things we call life, what is 3 minute install per act? I mean really I'm a computer tech for my company, I spend all day doing installs. I spend and extra 20 minutes in my car every morning in traffic. We all do stuff with wait time but everyone upset over a 3 minute install per Act in MGS 4? I mean really? Out of all the time we waste during our lives you all have no patience whatsoever? I feel bad for you people, the real question you all should be asking is why it takes Capcom 23 minutes to install 4.6gigs while it takes MGS4 7 minutes.

Because this is ENTERTAINMENT

 

[Yoshichan]

Because this is ENTERTAINMENT

.........

 

[Y2Kev]

Because this is ENTERTAINMENT

Could arguably be taken both ways :lol

 

[JudgeN]

Because this is ENTERTAINMENT

Your point? Movies have previews and TV shows have commercials. At the end of the day your still waiting aren't you? I really could understand if it was 20 minutes every act but this is 3 minnutes, 180 seconds thats it.

Now who can answer why capcom games take 23 minutes while MGS4 can do it in 7?

 

[Calcaneus]

Your point? Movies have previews and TV shows have commercials. At the end of the day your still waiting aren't you? I really could understand if it was 20 minutes every act but this is 3 minnutes, 180 seconds thats it.

Now who can answer why capcom games take 23 minutes while MGS4 can do it in 7?

My problem is people who are suggesting that this is a good trend. I'm indifferent to it, but I would never consider waiting a good trend.

 

[Beq]

I personally don't have a problem with it. I can see why many people would, liking to jump between different portions of the game, or multiple people playing on different acts.

But the funny thing about MGS4 is that there are massive amounts of cutscenes. If it was a different type of game, like DMC4 or GTA4, where there was a 1-2 minute load between acts or levels, I would have a really big problem with it.

As it is now, I just throw an extra 2 minutes on top of the 20 minute cutscene that will invariably follow the install, lol.

 

[DjangoReinhardt]

The installations were obnoxious, especially since loading screens kept interrupting the interactive portions of the game. The system specs are fixed, so design around the limitations to make the experience as seamless as possible for the end user. Then again, this is the studio that gave us the controls in Portable Ops . . .

 

[zoku88]

Uncharted's playspaces are much bigger than MGS4's. You could argue the graphical fidelity, but in terms of scope, the levels (especially if you break up MGS4 into the segments between loads) are simply larger. It's not a favorable comparison and the reason plenty of us who have played both bitch about the frequency of loading in MGS4 considering we also are forced to install the game.

It's not the size of them. It's how linear they are. If you're at point A, the developer can pretty much guess where you're going to be next and thus can predictably load that area. I wasn't directly comparing Uncharted to MGS4, having not played the latter. Just to games in general...

 

[dammitmattt]

Your point? Movies have previews and TV shows have commercials. At the end of the day your still waiting aren't you? I really could understand if it was 20 minutes every act but this is 3 minnutes, 180 seconds thats it.

Now who can answer why capcom games take 23 minutes while MGS4 can do it in 7?

Yes, but previews and commercials can often be entertaining, and even with that, the current direction of TV is to eliminate these annoying commercial breaks by using DVRs or watching shows on DVD.

It would be much better if Konami would've put something interesting on the screen during the installs (like the MGS4 database).

 

[Zedsdeadbaby]

They should have put the PMC adverts in place of the smoking screens, with no installation bar shown unless you press something like select to check on it. The adverts are brilliant.

 

[knitoe]

This topic is terrible in the grand scheme of things we call life, what is 3 minute install per act? I mean really I'm a computer tech for my company, I spend all day doing installs. I spend and extra 20 minutes in my car every morning in traffic. We all do stuff with wait time but everyone upset over a 3 minute install per Act in MGS 4? I mean really? Out of all the time we waste during our lives you all have no patience whatsoever? I feel bad for you people, the real question you all should be asking is why it takes Capcom 23 minutes to install 4.6gigs while it takes MGS4 7 minutes.

Swapping dics shouldn't be an issue either, but there are people whom have issue with it too.

 

[urk]

This topic is terrible in the grand scheme of things we call life, what is 3 minute install per act? I mean really I'm a computer tech for my company, I spend all day doing installs. I spend and extra 20 minutes in my car every morning in traffic. We all do stuff with wait time but everyone upset over a 3 minute install per Act in MGS 4? I mean really? Out of all the time we waste during our lives you all have no patience whatsoever? I feel bad for you people, the real question you all should be asking is why it takes Capcom 23 minutes to install 4.6gigs while it takes MGS4 7 minutes.

Multiple installs with loading: great feature or the greatest feature?

Install progress bars and sitting in traffic? FUCK YES THIS IS THE STUFF OF LIFE, MY FRIENDS!

 

[sprocket]

Well in 2mins you could technically load up 2 battles in lost Oddessy .

 

[dammitmattt]

It's not the size of them. It's how linear they are. If you're at point A, the developer can pretty much guess where you're going to be next and thus can predictably load that area. I wasn't directly comparing Uncharted to MGS4, having not played the latter. Just to games in general...

MGS4 is pretty damn linear, so it shouldn't be too difficult to guess where the player is going to go.

HINT: Towards the giant glowing red circle

Well in 2mins you could technically load up 2 battles in lost Oddessy .

Did you even play Lost Odyssey? The load times were annoying, but it was about 5 seconds until your character is on screen and another 5 until you choose an action. Also, why are you comparing a JRPG to an action/adventure?

 

[JudgeN]

Swapping dics shouldn't be an issue either, but there are people whom have issue with it too.

I never understood the bitching about swapping disc either, I guess at the end there will always be someone bitching about something. You can't make everyone happy.

 

[sprocket]

Swapping dics shouldn't be an issue either, but there are people whom have issue with it too.

you do know that in most games disk swapping only changes some cutscenes and a few events. The WORLD and the amount of textures and sounds in it is still limited to the size of one disk.

 

[Victrix]

Your point? Movies have previews and TV shows have commercials. At the end of the day your still waiting aren't you? I really could understand if it was 20 minutes every act but this is 3 minnutes, 180 seconds thats it.

I show up late at the movies and skip commercials on tv with a DVR. I don't buy or play games that have heavy in-game advertising. Maybe you don't value your own time or care about being advertised to, I do, a lot.

I get grouchy at games that have excessive loading. I get more grouchy when they have loading on a system with a HD. MGS4 isn't excessive, but it is very strange that it has such loading issues.

But given the choice between worse loading and no short install, or a short install and some loading, of course I'll take the second option - it's likely to save more time for me while I'm playing.

 

[knitoe]

you do know that in most games disk swapping only changes some cutscenes and a few events. The WORLD and the amount of textures and sounds in it is still limited to the size of one disk.

Depends on the game. True for sandbox type or games your can revisit places anytime, but not linear (Point A > B > C).

 

[acevans2]

I have absolutely no problem with installs. I like Uncharted and MGS4 a ton. One has installs, one doesn't have any. The installs are not a factor in my opinion of a game.

LOAD TIMES, on the other hand, suck. As long as those are kept to a minimum and gameplay isn't punctuated really often, I'm perfectly ok.

Actually, you know what game I wish had an install? Motorstorm. Hopefully MS2 can do something about those awful load times.

 

[Kolgar]

I too am confused about the frequent loading in a game that installs before each act.

Best I can figure, it's a combination of factors: An early Blu-ray drive. Kojima's development style (and possibly a lack of Naughty-Dog-style optimization). The fact that this is a Metal Gear game and it's got a shitload of cutscenes.

All these installs and loads seem silly for such a big-budget game on such highly touted hardware, but the only time they've really bothered me was last night when I wanted to simply quit the game and go look at some photos I'd taken.

But due to Kojima's style and the nature of the game, I wound up turning from mild-mannered gamer to frothing-at-the-mouth serial killer in the space of five minutses.

Cutscene. Continue or skip? Skip.

Cutscene. Continue or skip? Skip.

Cutscene. Continue or skip. SKIP, Goddamnit, I just want the main menu!

INSTALLING. Oh, for the love of--

Three minutes pass. Cutscene. Continue or skip? SKIP!

Cutscene. Continue or skip? Aw, fuck this!

Quit game. Turn off system. Kick over a magazine rack and set fire to three city blocks.

 

[traveler]

This topic is terrible in the grand scheme of things we call life, what is 3 minute install per act? I mean really I'm a computer tech for my company, I spend all day doing installs. I spend and extra 20 minutes in my car every morning in traffic. We all do stuff with wait time but everyone upset over a 3 minute install per Act in MGS 4? I mean really? Out of all the time we waste during our lives you all have no patience whatsoever? I feel bad for you people, the real question you all should be asking is why it takes Capcom 23 minutes to install 4.6gigs while it takes MGS4 7 minutes.

Are you not reading this thread? In my first playthrough, I had to deal with over 1 hour of installs. That is absolutely absurd and I can't see how anyone could see this NOT worthy of criticism.

 

[Grayman]

Don't get me wrong. The game is pure awesome. But one thing which always bothering me is the game loading/installation. I mean, the loading time itself is already long enough especially compare to other high-profile game. But installing game every Act? Why don't make it done at once since start? Installing has already taken away the advantage of being disc base system for the console. But now installing every mission ([spoil]the game has only 5 missions by the way[/spoil]). And with the new stage installation, the old stage data will be deleted. If i stop my play at stage 3 and my brother want his own play start from stage 1, it means the game has to re-install stage1 and then re-re-install the game when i want to continue my play from stage3 :/.

Pretty horrible trend. If the game didn't have loading times otherwise it would be nice but it has lots of loading times.

 

[Yaweee]

When you force an fresh install before each level, you're kind of eliminating the fucking point of having a hard drive in the first place.

 

[Crayon]

I think everyone is missing something here.

No other game will use this system and present it like MGS4. This seems obvious to me. Kojima is solving some sort of technical hurdle in a deliberatly obnoxious way. It's actually pretty funny and it works for Metal Gearbut I don't think you will see a single game copy it. Read the warnings that pop up. Most of them are deeply sarcastic.

Bottom line there is only one game that's going to make you whatch someone smoke while they swap a full 2 gigs of cash, then have the balls to flash the word "intalling" and even have a "ready to begin" screen beforehand.

 

[CounterSeal]

I don't mind the incremental installs at all. Gives me a good excuse to take breaks.

 

[mileS]

When you force an fresh install before each level, you're kind of eliminating the fucking point of having a hard drive in the first place.

that makes tons of sense...

 

[sykoex]

I'm just wondering if Kojima's next PS3 game will have these same sort of installs.

 

[roxya]

As Penny Arcade has already stated, where is the advantage in a single Blu-Ray disc (compared to switching discs) if we have to periodically install the game as we play it?

I don't see the comparison. If the game was on 5 discs the install wouldn't be required or something? Why would that be?

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

I don't see the comparison. If the game was on 5 discs the install wouldn't be required or something? Why would that be?

Install times are required to reduce load times; the Blu-Ray drive is slow. It's faster to read off the HDD than it is to read off a Blu-Ray disc. Had Sony gone with a standard (but high-speed) DVD drive, install times would not be required - however, because of the size limitations of the DVD format, multiple discs would be required.

Chances are a high-speed DVD drive + a 3-5 disc changer in the PS3 would probably cost less to manufacture than a single Blu-Ray Drive.

 

[LCGeek]

Get uses to installs and loading till the overall tech we use for games gets well above what optical media has traditionally allowed, which seems to be a cold day in hell. Think it's bad wait till next gen where transfer speeds are still largely shit and devs are no working in BR territory of space or higher.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

The worst thing about the implementation in MGS4 is that it will also install on REPLAYS, just to get you to take a break.

It's horrible. Just install the damn thing up front like any PC game and be done with it.

Whether I have to wait 8 or 15 minutes for an install is a moot point to me.

 

[Nikorasu]

If they had just called it a loading screen this wouldn't be nearly as big a deal to some people. What is it about the word install that sends console games running for their pitchforks? Its only 1-3 minutes, I mean really. The total cumulative load times for many other games are a lot worse.

 

[TTP]

Get uses to installs and loading till the overall tech we use for games gets well above what optical media has traditionally allowed, which seems to be a cold day in hell. Think it's bad wait till next gen where transfer speeds are still largely shit and devs are no working in BR territory of space or higher.

No need to wait next gen. You can play Uncharted now.

This is just bad installs management on KP part. That is all.