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[BocoDragon]

More likely, they're trying to justify their choice in canon specifically to justify it to critics. I mean, I really doubt the truth about Cortana has been held back for, like, a decade, until the perfect time to reveal it appeared. Likewise, Kojima hasn't bothered to explain the revealing clothing his female characters have worn until now.

I'll admit I don't know much about Halo or MGS overall though, so maybe I've got this all wrong.

There has never been a major character this naked in his games before.

Kojima is so famous for explaining odd elements of his game in-canon that he even has a meme about the phenomenon: "Nanomachines". He's always making up explanations like this... the difference is that this one taps into a controversial subject as of late.

I can believe that people at 343 are hyper-aware of the sexualization debate of the past half decade... but if this was their conscious response to it? They would have known it would go over like a lead balloon. I think they asked themselves why, and made up a reason for their canon... but in order to answer to critics? You wouldn't answer to critics with that.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

I think it was the Frankie quote that set them off. We all know why Cortana is naked, and Madness explained it above perfectly.


That being said, Cortana is wearing clothes in Halo 5, lol.

The funny thing is though, Bungie/343i have thrown that line out for years now. Like, close to a decade I believe. So for it suddenly to become this thing that everyone is up in arms about, at the exact same time we have a fully armored Cortana, is a little silly.

 

[Palculator]

More likely, they're trying to justify their choice in canon specifically to justify it to critics. I mean, I really doubt the truth about Cortana has been held back for, like, a decade, until the perfect time to reveal it appeared. Likewise, Kojima hasn't bothered to explain the revealing clothing his female characters have worn until now.

I'll admit I don't know much about Halo or MGS overall though, so maybe I've got this all wrong.

EVA had a great explanation and it contributed to the narrative. Sniper Wolf might not have had a kayfabe reason for showing cleavage in fucking Alaska, but it fit her character. The unexplained ones would be the Beauty and the Beast Corps. and maybe Fortune, but it's not like there hasn't been an attempt to justify revealing females until MGSV.

Either way, between porn mags as items and main characters masturbating to idol posters it should've been clear that seemingly out of place sex is part and parcel for Metal Gear. Keep in mind who makes these games.

 

[MrGerbils]

Since when do artists and designers have to justify their decisions with the world? They can create whatever they want, for whatever reasions, and the market will determine whether the product is a success or not.

Yep, the invisible hand of the market is what decides what sexism is. While we're at it we should let the libertarian godfigure define what racism and homophobia are too.

If an artist wants to make something that's blatantly negative against a certain race, it's not worth writing an article to criticize it, if The Market has deemed it not racist by making it sell.

 

[BocoDragon]

The funny thing is though, Bungie/343i have thrown that line out for years now. Like, close to a decade I believe. So for it suddenly to become this thing that everyone is up in arms about, at the exact same time we have a fully armored Cortana, is a little silly.

Well.. it is a sign of the times. I'm sure you're not that surprised why it's coming up now. Anti-sexualization politics are at an all time high thanks to the twitter/blogosphere driving it over the past half-decade.

 

[captainpat]

I know someome in this forum disagrees with you here. There was some lengthy post that talked about the sorceress' big breasts being some god of fertility brilliant reference or some such.

Well, they don't speak for Kamitami

 

[UberLevi]

Well I certainly wasn't expecting Halo 5 spoilers when I walked in here.

 

[Madness]

The funny thing is though, Bungie/343i have thrown that line out for years now. Like, close to a decade I believe. So for it suddenly to become this thing that everyone is up in arms about, at the exact same time we have a fully armored Cortana, is a little silly.

Agreed. Plus they're ignoring the fact this Halo was probably the most diverse and gender equal in a long time. Commander Sarah Palmer and Halsey, half the Spartan teams are women,

Spoiler

Exhuberant Witness as a female monitor, Makee the female Elite I think has more lines in the game than Keith David as the Arbiter and like you said, Cortana who is becoming the big bad

.

 

[DonMigs85]

I don't think we've seen vulvas in games yet, but there's been a number of wangs. I pity the people who had to painstakingly model them out of polygons

 

[Northeastmonk]

What's the point of naked women period? I wouldn't take that right away unless we want leap frog adventures every year. I'm smart enough to know games can work without naked women, but I don't want to censor them and make video games these chastised objects in media.

Nudity and sexuality appear because they're part of life. We cannot live without reproducing and sex sells more than video games. Censor that and all you'll have is regulated watered downed video games. Sure it can exist, but this is just the beginning.

 

[Matt]

Since when do artists and designers have to justify their decisions with the world? They can create whatever they want, for whatever reasions, and the market will determine whether the product is a success or not.

Umm, always? People are free to criticize something they find questionable. For example, I find Quiet's dress and the way she often acts to be fucking stupid and embarrassing. I have every right to feel that way, and every right to express it.

 

[KingJ2002]

"I’m starting to wonder if anyone at 343 Industries has ever actually seen a vulva."

^Condescending and... just corny.

Why is this a fucking topic. YOU KNOW WHY THEY'RE HALF NAKED....why does this shit need to be explained?

if this shit offends you outside all of the killing and profanity... you need your head checked.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

I mean, I really doubt the truth about Cortana has been held back for, like, a decade, until the perfect time to reveal it appeared.

I'll admit I don't know much about Halo or MGS overall though, so maybe I've got this all wrong.

It wasn't. The reasoning for Cortana's design came about nearly a decade ago. This is far from new, and has been said several times over the years, only this time it suddenly became a story everywhere.

The reasoning came about because at the time numerous new AIs were entering the Halo fiction with various designs with various in-fiction reasons for them. Cortana never had any lore behind her design, she was just a generic "cyber pixi", so they came up with that (again, admittedly dumb) reasoning to fill in the gaps in the lore.

 

[Palculator]

Umm, always? People are free to criticize something they find questionable. For example, I find Quiet's dress and the way she often acts to be fucking stupid and embarrassing. I have every right to feel that way, and every right to express it.

No one was saying you don't have that right.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Hey Jef, maybe you should actually PLAY Halo 5 Guardians before assuming what was the case for Halo 4 is also the case for Halo 5.

 

[Devilgunman]

Yup, no smart reason.


I like sexy ladies.

I like video games.

Video games + sexy ladies = best of both worlds


Reasons can fuck off.

 

[sappyday]

Quiet is literally the worst character in video game history .

 

[Yabberwocky]

Great article, thanks for linking, OP! I then had to laugh as the related article option offered Sometimes Porn Games Do Feminism Better Than Blockbusters, which genuinely turned out to be an interesting read, too.

 

[Memorabilia]

Disagree. Nudity and sex for its own sake doesn't have to be considered a negative thing.

Edit:

"I’m starting to wonder if anyone at 343 Industries has ever actually seen a vulva."

^Condescending and... just corny.

Why is this a fucking topic. YOU KNOW WHY THEY'RE HALF NAKED....why does this shit need to be explained?

if this shit offends you outside all of the killing and profanity... you need your head checked.

And this.

 

[Matt]

No one was saying you don't have that right.

You're right. I was responding more to the idea that a designer's intention should be free of criticism and analysis.

 

[Hypron]

Since when do artists and designers have to justify their decisions with the world? They can create whatever they want, for whatever reasions, and the market will determine whether the product is a success or not.

They are free to make whatever they just as people are free to criticise their arts. Kojima had every right to make Quiet as she is and I have every right to think that character's design and its story explanation are complete and utter trash (and I like the game).

Criticism has always and will always be an integral part of what we call art.

 

[SkeptiMism]

I think maybe the author confused these collections of art, animation, and voice over, to be actual people.

I'm not sure how you read it that way. The point there is that a lot of times there's talk of these things, there are people who go with the slut shaming angle, as if the people wishing for more diversity were slut shaming. It is a good thing that the author brought it up in advance.

 

[Ryouji Gunblade]

Still wondering why people are hung up on Quiet's design when Meryl and Eva are worse offenders IMO.

 

[BocoDragon]

"I’m starting to wonder if anyone at 343 Industries has ever actually seen a vulva."

^Condescending and... just corny.

Why is this a fucking topic. YOU KNOW WHY THEY'RE HALF NAKED....why does this shit need to be explained?

if this shit offends you outside all of the killing and profanity... you need your head checked.

I think it's incredibly odd how we laughed the likes of Joe Lieberman and Jack Thompson out of the room for criticizing violence in games.... but the sexualization in games issue has gained huge traction over the past few years.

Either violent content is next... or, we are hypocritical as a society about what we choose to find problematic.

 

[Palculator]

Still wondering why people are hung up on Quiet's design when Meryl and Eva are worse offenders IMO.

Meryl? For actualz? Because of that little scene with her in underwear or because the game makes you look at her butt to advance the plot?

 

[SkeptiMism]

Stop trying to limit creators or we'll never see games become art. Why can't we have a game with surrealistic orgies of flying dwarfs? Would the present climate allow a Salvador Dali of gaming? Shakespeare? Oscar Wilde? Obviously the big publishers would never allow such a thing but if we ostracize even indie creators because their vision is off putting to you, we'll get nowhere as no one will dare break from the established norms.

I think the effort should be to make people softer and more tolerant, rather than making all games such. Art doesn't have to be soft and tolerant.

(Yes that means we will see lots of low effort titty slap simulators but that's fine, you don't have to play them, just as you don't have to read Twilight fan ficton.)

Who's trying to limit creators?

What's the point of naked women period? I wouldn't take that right away unless we want leap frog adventures every year. I'm smart enough to know games can work without naked women, but I don't want to censor them and make video games these chastised objects in media.

Nudity and sexuality appear because they're part of life. We cannot live without reproducing and sex sells more than video games. Censor that and all you'll have is regulated watered downed video games. Sure it can exist, but this is just the beginning.

Did you read the article? Honest question (no offense). Because the author isn't saying there's no reason to have nudity (despite the title). The author also isn't trying to censor it.

"I’m starting to wonder if anyone at 343 Industries has ever actually seen a vulva."

^Condescending and... just corny.

Why is this a fucking topic. YOU KNOW WHY THEY'RE HALF NAKED....why does this shit need to be explained?

if this shit offends you outside all of the killing and profanity... you need your head checked.

Jesus.

Was the author so offended? Is anyone talking about these things offended? Do all those people need their head checked?

 

[MrGerbils]

Disagree. Nudity and sex for its own sake doesn't have to be considered a negative thing.

Of course not, but if that's your angle then just be honest about it.

It's like if Hooters ran some campaign about how their waitresses only wear the outfits they do because it makes them more efficient servers because there's less clothes in the way to slow them down or some shit.

DoAX Volleyball or whatever is fine for the people who want it. Go nuts.

But don't try and dress the waitresses at a 5 star restaurant in bikinis and then spin it as some story about efficiency.

That's what it's like when I try to play an otherwise great AAA open world game with my wife.

 

[Corpekata]

Still wondering why people are hung up on Quiet's design when Meryl and Eva are worse offenders IMO.

You have weird opinions.

 

[captainpat]

I bet money though that if mgs5 was the same but Quiet dressed like this. There would be way less complaining.

 

[SkeptiMism]

I think it's incredibly odd how we laughed like likes of Joe Lieberman and Jack Thompson out of the room for criticizing violence in games.... but the sexualization in games issue has gained huge traction over the past few years.

Either violent content is next... or, we are hypocritical about what we choose to find problematic.

A lot of people do criticize violence too, but that's another topic. Criticizing one thing doesn't mean that you have to criticize another thing with the same passion.

We also just had a topic about that so I'm not really gonna go there much here.

 

[Ferrio]

I bet money though that if mgs5 was the same but Quiet dressed like this. There would be way less complaining.

Stop, she's suffocating!

 

[Zomba13]

Cortana was wearing clothes in Guardians, tho.

This. She actually had some kind or armour plating look which looked ok.

I would be 100% ok with nude blue hologram woman if all the other AIs followed the same logic, like if all AIs were just mannequin like but different colours with different voices, but in 4 you get Roland which is dressed as an old timey pilot so then all that reasoning goes out the window.

I’m not saying nobody should ever be naked in games. I like the female form as much as the next guy. However, there are two things I’d like to see games do better. The first is technical. If you’re going to strip Cortana quit trying to skirt the issue by blurring the sex characteristics. I’m starting to wonder if anyone at 343 Industries has ever actually seen a vulva.

I think that is a little harsh seeing as 343 didn't design the character to begin with and they have tried to cover her up in the latest game (though then again had her looking more realisticly nude than ever in Halo 4).

 

[captainpat]

Of course not, but if that's your angle then just be honest about it.

to be fair, Kojima being honest about Quiet's design with a tweet was exactly what started this whole controversy.

 

[BocoDragon]

A lot of people do criticize violence too, but that's another topic. Criticizing one thing doesn't mean that you have to criticize another thing with the same passion.

We also just had a topic about that so I'm not really gonna go there much here.

I'm legitimately wondering why our society isn't all that interested in the violence issue, while many people are huffing and getting personally worked up over female representation.

Feminist issues are in, I guess. It probably hits closer to home for most of the population.

 

[Head.spawn]

They are free to make whatever they just as people are free to criticise their arts. Kojima had every right to make Quiet as she is and I have every right to think that character's design and its story explanation are complete and utter trash (and I like the game).

Criticism has always and will always be an integral part of what we call art.

Out of all the bat shit crazy stuff going on in MGS, you call bs on Quiet?

 

[Harlequin]

Disagree. Nudity and sex for its own sake doesn't have to be considered a negative thing.

Of course not but the gender imbalance sort of makes it problematic. Also, the amount of supposedly serious games which then put female characters into completely impractical outfits/armour for no diegetic reason whatsoever, just to show off their cleavage, etc. I mean, I don't necessarily have a problem with a game doing that but then the game's tone should reflect that. For example, it's fitting in sth like Bayonetta or one of those Japanese dating sims, etc. but in sth like Mass Effect? Not so much, especially considering the male characters get proper armour that doesn't show off as much skin and isn't skin-tight.

 

[Palculator]

Of course not, but if that's your angle then just be honest about it.

It's like if Hooters ran some campaign about how their waitresses only wear the outfits they do because it makes them more efficient servers because there's less clothes in the way to slow them down or some shit.

DoAX Volleyball or whatever is fine for the people who want it. Go nuts.

But don't try and dress the waitresses at a 5 star restaurant in bikinis and then spin it as some story about efficiency.

That's what it's like when I try to play an otherwise great AAA open world game with my wife.

DOAX3 does go out of its way to justify why the fighters just suddenly take a vacation on a beach island to frolick around in bikinis, though. The authors are still trying to make it plausible within kayfabe, somehow. I think the fact that a design like Quiet looks out of place to people in the 1984 Soviet-Afghanistant-War regardless of the reason whilst the authors are implying it is sufficiently justified is more of an issue here, not their relative "honesty." Kojima and Shinkawa are pretty upfront about liking hot women, after all.

 

[...Scatter...]

As an American born in Europe I don't understand America's obsession with vilifying nudity. Act like you've seen a titty before for gods sakes. Its not some magical forbidden fruit, its just part of the female body.

Also Cortana was fully clothed in Halo 5

Spoiler

much to my chagrin

. Is this insecurity? Or what is the big deal about nudity that gets people all in a tizzy? My wife's facebook page has countlessly more boner inducing images than all the Halos put together. She likes Victoria Secret on there and some random models for inspiration. No big deal I say.

 

[Doctor Ironic]

Maybe they're actually more interested in justifying their choice in canon than in justifying it to critics?

I mean..... Kojima also has a "smart reason" for why there was a vampire in his semi-realistic military series. The real reason is because it's just cool to have a vampire.... but he wants to justify it for no other reason than in-game logic.

That would be even MORE embarrassing.

 

[SeanTSC]

If you want to see her naked write a tender love scene.

Why's it always have to be "tender"?

Not every relationship is like that and a lot of sex certainly isn't. My GF would gag if she saw this quote. Hell, she rolls her eyes and calls it "sugar rape" anytime I'm too nice to her. It kind of annoys me how stuff always has to be tender if you want to show a love scene in most media, 'cause personally that's been pretty rare in my experience. My GF and I love each other pretty deeply and we're openly quite clingy with each other, but I don't think I could describe any of our interactions as being "tender" even when we're grossly affectionate.

 

[Northeastmonk]

Who's trying to limit creators?

Did you read the article? Honest question (no offense). Because the author isn't saying there's no reason to have nudity (despite the title). The author also isn't trying to censor it.

Yes, but it throws me back and forth. It's criticism for nosense sexual tones. People are sexual for no reason at all and if you question them well you're too far into their personal space. It's done for the sake of creators making them so.

If a woman wears a bikini and military pants then she does so. No one walks up and asks her otherwise. It's probably hot outside. Cortana is just basically sexualized period, much like AI voices or so forth have been. I just think it's pointless because creators are going to make whatever they feel they should. this would only influence game designers if they're just starting out.

This article is beyond the point or reason. Those games came and went. It's sorta stupid to question them now.

Sexuality should be left in however they want it to be. PlayBoy goes from nude centerfolds to now no nudes. Somewhere someone is gonna look sexy. Sex is universal and totally misunderstood. I'm saying it's stupid when we try and take it away which you thought I was going off on without pointing that out.

 

[LurkerPrime]

Whoops, I completely forgot about the pervy content in early MGS. And Halo's lore is in a better state than I thought.

Thanks for the corrections, y'all.

I bet money though that if mgs5 was the same but Quiet dressed like this. There would be way less complaining.

Crystal Dynamics would C&D that before Konami could try.

Also, I agree, it would be standard fare. Which is precisely what's so messed up, and what the article is getting at: it's tittilation at the expense of the character, which begs the question of why the character is there to begin with if they aren't allowed to be themselves. Either make it an integral part of the character or don't do it at all; if they want an advertising prop, they should make one instead of just dancing around the issue.

 

[Crossing Eden]

What's the point of naked women period? I wouldn't take that right away unless we want leap frog adventures every year. I'm smart enough to know games can work without naked women, but I don't want to censor them and make video games these chastised objects in media.

Nudity and sexuality appear because they're part of life. We cannot live without reproducing and sex sells more than video games. Censor that and all you'll have is regulated watered downed video games. Sure it can exist, but this is just the beginning.

Nudity and sexuality are part of life but 99% of "sexuality" and "partial/full nudity" in games, especially for female characters, who have taken the brunt of it compared to male characters, don't resemble life at all. Character designers treating the opposite gender with respect and designing them in a logical way !=censorship ffs.

Yes, but it throws me back and forth. It's criticism for nosense sexual tones. People are sexual for no reason at all and if you question them well you're too far into their personal space. It's done for the sake of creators making them so.

If a woman wears a bikini and military pants then she does so. No one walks up and asks her otherwise. It's probably hot outside. Cortana is just basically sexualized period, much like AI voices or so forth have been. I just think it's pointless because creators are going to make whatever they feel they should. this would only influence game designers if they're just starting out.

This article is beyond the point or reason. Those games came and went. It's sorta stupid to question them now.

Sexuality should be left in however they want it to be. PlayBoy goes from nude centerfolds to now no nudes. Somewhere someone is gonna look sexy. Sex is universal and totally misunderstood. I'm saying it's stupid when we try and take it away which you thought I was going off on without pointing that out.

People are sexual for no reason at all

There is a biological reason why people are sexual.

If a woman wears a bikini and military pants then she does so. No one walks up and asks her otherwise. It's probably hot outside.

If you're in the fucking desert then you want to be covered up, not have your skin exposed to the fucking sun holy shit. And YES, if a woman wears a bikini and military pants than she'd likely be chastised. But then again, that doesn't happen in real life, and if you think it does then I implore you to visit a military base and see the reactions when you ask if women wear bikinis.

 

[MrGerbils]

DOAX3 does go out of its way to justify why the fighters just suddenly take a vacation on a beach island to frolick around in bikinis, though. The authors are still trying to make it plausible within kayfabe, somehow. I think the fact that a design like Quiet looks out of place to people in the 1984 Soviet-Afghanistant-War regardless of the reason whilst the authors are implying it is sufficiently justified is more of an issue here, not their relative "honesty." Kojima and Shinkawa are pretty upfront about liking hot women, after all.

Yes and I'm sure there's porn that justifies why the pizza delivery boy suddenly needs to go to the lady's bedroom, but that wouldn't justify a giggling school girl in a thong constantly bending over while the camera zooms in on her ass in every single episode of Breaking Bad.

 

[Head.spawn]

I bet money though that if mgs5 was the same but Quiet dressed like this. There would be way less complaining.

How'd she going to breathe in that?

 

[BocoDragon]

Of course not but the gender imbalance sort of makes it problematic. Also, the amount of supposedly serious games which then put female characters into completely impractical outfits/armour for no diegetic reason whatsoever, just to show off their cleavage, etc. I mean, I don't necessarily have a problem with a game doing that but then the game's tone should reflect that. For example, it's fitting in sth like Bayonetta or one of those Japanese dating sims, etc. but in sth like Mass Effect? Not so much, especially considering the male characters get proper armour that doesn't show off as much skin and isn't skin-tight.

It's really hard to say which games are "mainstream" and inappropriate for these kinds of things and which are niche and okay to have a little fan service.

Take MGS, for example... despite how much the budget was and how much it sells, it's clearly always been a wierd little import series from Japan with a whole bunch of anime quirks, sexualized women, and fart jokes....

Should we suddenly expect those elements to be removed because the game gets high sales and a big development budget? Kind of odd, right?

If I were at Microsoft planning a big mainstream series to be a flagship title for Xbox, of course I'd aim for gender-balanced appeal befitting a mainstream entertainment property. But I think a lot of these big series start out in the minds of designers making their weird little game that they would themselves enjoy, and then it blows up....

 

[Warm Machine]

I've always wanted to make a challenging honestly adult game with nudity in it but I can't figure out the moment to moment gameplay. Adult to me is building relationships and narrative situations which is the antithesis to pick up and play game controls.

 

[Northeastmonk]

Nudity and sexuality are part of life but 99% of "sexuality" and "partial/full nudity" in games, especially for female characters, who have taken the brunt of it compared to male characters, don't resemble life at all. Character designers treating the opposite gender with respect and designing them in a logical way !=censorship ffs.

People use sexuality differently. It's been used in every which way, so storytelling or whatever you're going to do with it is gonna break those rules and it should... be that silly or not.

Why justify it for other mediums and cookie cut video games? I think it's such an open and diverse topic here. It can be goofy, softcore, hardcore, etc, etc. I think it's still gonna exist in every which way possible.

 

[captainpat]

How'd she going to breathe in that?

It's open enough. I think that's the same amount of clothes she wears in the game it's just redesigned in an less erotic way.

 

[Suzzopher]

I love the comment make a tender love scene for having people naked. What about a scene of just fucking? People like to fuck, it's a natural thing as is being naked.

Women are wrongly objectified in games and all forms of media, but things like sex in games is odd to me with the way it's usually handled. The writing is bad and it's played it out in a way that you have to say the right things to get the sex outcome, which isn't how you want to see sex portrayed. Just have characters be honest and say "wanna fuck?" "thought you'd never ask".

Games are so immature in trying to be mature.