Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Sexuality is an incredibly diverse topic and yet so many games use sexuality in the exact same way.
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Interesting Article: There is no smart reason for naked women in video games
- Thread starter miku
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DICKS AHOY
Banned
This is simplifying things a bit and you've probably seen this excuse before, but it seems like America has issues with representations of sexuality in general (even ignoring feminism) and has glorified violence and war in its media eons before games existed, whereas in Europe (and here in Australia) it feels like we're far more comfortable with liberal portrayals of sexuality but eh on the side of caution over extreme gore. I think the feminist angle while relevant isn't the only reason why sex is a hot topic for debate in gaming.
Even with the shit reputation my country has in terms of games and classifications, I think it's usually over violence and drug use rather than naked bits that gets stuff banned or censored here.
captainpat
Member
Saint's Row 4 did just that and it was awesome
I should finally start that game. Love the third.
They go out of the way to point out that she has the same photosynthesis powers as The End, who was fully clothed (thank God). Shit doesn't even hold up to internal logic.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
The End had lungs.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
Because it doesn't take much besides a female or male body. That's what sells most products you find at the store, whoever cheers for the hometown football team, and whoever shows off the latest in fashion. I find that it's hard fighting a diversity when T&A just have to show up, that's easy to do. Most people have T&A or whatever they focus on and that's the extent to that.
I'm saying T&A just to clarify how easy it is to get to that point.
Persilja
Neo Member
This article summarized all those things I've been thinking about MGS5. The only reason for Quite to "present" herself like that, is clearly sex appeal. And the only reason why the old geezer from MSG3 wasn't like that, because he was a man and his rump was old. I wouldn't have any problem with Quiet, if Kojima didn't try to bullshit his way out of just saying he likes to see boob jiggle all around. If we had seen The End as naked as Quiet, there wouldn't have been any problem 
.
.Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
"Old Geezer" had functional lungs while "Quite" didn't.This article summarized all those things I've been thinking about MGS5. The only reason for Quite to "present" herself like that, is clearly sex appeal. And the only reason why the old geezer from MSG3 wasn't like that, because he was a man and his rump was old. I wouldn't have any problem with Quiet, if Kojima didn't try to bullshit his way out of just saying he likes to see boob jiggle all around. If we had seen The End as naked as Quiet, there wouldn't have been any problem
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The problem is the constant focus on the female body. Yes sex sells but if this medium is gonna move forward we need to leave that childish thinking behind.
Which makes no goddamn sense, You need lungs to talk. Yet Quiet can talk, it's such a horribly contrived excuse to put a character in a bikini and have a voyeur cam every time she's in a scene.
There's like no point in having naked women in any media, except that some times its enjoyable because people like being titilated by beautiful naked bodies. Cavemen scrawled porn on the walls of caves for christ's sake.
It's all about execution. Presenting naked people in a way that's exploitive and predatory is bad. The camera incessantly hovering around Quiet's naughty bits in MGS5 is cloying, for example. Having naked bodies during love scenes, or for the occasional "fan service" moments are, IMO, justified in their existence because it's something that people enjoy seeing and are entertained by. However, like anything done in excess, exhaustingly repetitive nudity and attempts to appeal to sexual desires can spoil the whole package.
"Dumb" things can also be "smart." Pacific Rim was a playfully dumb action movie that was executed smartly. Not everything needs to attempt to be Citizen Kane.
Childish? At exactly what age would you say human beings no longer have an interest in viewing nice looking naked bodies?
It's all about execution. Presenting naked people in a way that's exploitive and predatory is bad. The camera incessantly hovering around Quiet's naughty bits in MGS5 is cloying, for example. Having naked bodies during love scenes, or for the occasional "fan service" moments are, IMO, justified in their existence because it's something that people enjoy seeing and are entertained by. However, like anything done in excess, exhaustingly repetitive nudity and attempts to appeal to sexual desires can spoil the whole package.
"Dumb" things can also be "smart." Pacific Rim was a playfully dumb action movie that was executed smartly. Not everything needs to attempt to be Citizen Kane.
Childish? At exactly what age would you say human beings no longer have an interest in viewing nice looking naked bodies?
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I do agree.
There is an urgency with which we get worked up over sexuality in games (whether through right wing "decency" or left wing feminism), while saying through our inattention to issues of violence in games "oh but that stuff is harmless and normal". It is in some small measure the regressive Puritanical history of America re-asserting itself, whether we think it's progressive or not.
But this is a meta-discussion about selective attention and what people choose to fixate on and consider fair game targets of criticism. It is obviously fine that people criticize what they see fit.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
But it doesn't contradict the lore.
It has got nothing at all to do with being mainstream or niche, it's about the general tone of the game, the way in which nudity is treated and presented, whether it feels appropriate considering either the context in which its presented or the overall tone of the work and whether there's a difference between how males and females are presented in regards to nudity and sexualisation. (Of course, depending on the game, it may make sense for there to be such a difference. For example, in a dating sim for straight males or one for lesbians, it makes sense that there'll be more female than male nudity, just like it makes sense for there to be more male than female nudity in a dating sim for straight women or one for gay men. But in a generic RPG/adventure/shooter/etc. game that's targeted at people of all genders and varying sexual orientations, such a gender-based difference in how nudity is used/presented is usually not excusable unless there is a good diegetic reason for it (perhaps there are exceptions where they are but I honestly can't think of any).)
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It's childish in the way that it's constantly appealing to "Omg boobz." There's usually no deep thought process behind it. I mean when one of the most mature takes on a sex scene is followed by gameplay that consists of shooting nazis it says a lot about the treatment of the subject in this industry. There have been plenty of moments in other media that address sexuality in interesting thought provoking ways.
It contradicts logic at the expense of a the sole important female character. There was no lore behind the terribly contrived parasite deus ex machina that does whatever Kojima want it to.
The lore was probably made to serve the character design goals, not the other way around.
Zomba13
Member
The lungs were just burnt weren't they? Maybe they "work" as in contract and expand but don't absorb oxygen? So like, they can pull air in and push it out but not actually use the air?
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
I see your point, but when people move beyond that standard video game and start seeing the complexity or simplicity of it all, they tend to think it's childish or they simply move on. They are then geared up for some sorta sexual experience somewhere else. I'm saying it may seem childish, but sex drives people forward too. We want to be healthy, take care of our bodies, enjoy a healthy sex life.
It's like with R-rated films. The nitty gritty films have sex in them because they're stimulating. You aren't going off to look at porn or going off to find the bikini models because you got your entire experience right there.
Musicians dress in skimpy clothes which probably gets them more views per show. I think gaming has had that style and it helped boost sales. I can see adult men buying a video game they'd normally think was childish just because it had sexual overtones. I'm sure the video game industry can amaze people, but only if they're looking at it or get caught up in their amazement. They're marketing games on a much larger level and maybe some people don't want to see games that take this emotional approach or anything. The 3D artist still has to draw or create an attractive model because most people want to feel an attraction in some way.
I might be a bit confusing, but I feel like video games need justification for sexuality be that goofy or not.
It's childish to dress up in a skimpy outfit and make a pucker face, but it looks good and it sells a product.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
I was correcting people saying The End and Quiet are contradictory. I've acknowledged Metal Gear to go for sex when not really fitting the setting already:
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I don't think your distinction easily maps onto my main example of MGS.
It might appear as a mainstream military shooter with a serious tone to the untrained eye, and should therefore be considered gender-neutral under your rules.
But it is actually a sequel to a long-running spy action series dating back to the 80s, which always had sexual innuendo, off-color jokes, and wacky anime plot trappings. So what should we expect from it? It is more like Bayonetta or a Japanese dating simulator in legacy than you'd think.
Mass Effect? Hmm ... It's more clear cut. I think you have a point.
ButtSLAM420
Banned
MGSV was one of the few games that I genuinely felt embarrassed if I did missions with Quiet. I felt so... creepy... especially when she was in the chopper with you doing her stretches.
I don't really find anything more mature about that scene there, it's just executed well, has good facial animation, and is written so that it's not spoiled by stupid vocalization or poor voice acting. You don't need to have people fucking to appeal to sexual desires and it doesn't make it inherently more mature to appeal to sexuality when it's just written better. I think there's nothing wrong with "omg boobs" as its a pretty natural internal reaction for people (of both sexes, even). I maintain that the problem is how excessive you are with it, not in a binary sense that any is wrong and none is preferable. Sexuality can be a theme without feeling like its pandering.
I know people generally think Japanese studios are worse offenders but take Persona 4, for example. Sexuality is a big theme in that game and there are unashamedly titilating moments but it really feels like it has its place without ever being overbearing.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
YUP! You see it makes perfect sense. She has these Parasites that do whatever Kojima wants, amazing S tier writing. /s
You know what's healthy and good for people in general, nice portrayals of female characters in media. Quite frankly, the film industry has already done so a shit ton of times, gaes however, have not. 3D artists don't have to create super idealized versions of women for games to sell. They don't have to put in pointless sexualization. None of those have any noticeable bearing on sales, especially when these factors are considered:
-There are more female gamers, yes ones with consoles, than ever
-Audiences in general nowadays are more put off with it
Perhaps the creator should not have said the following
-"She's the antithesis to the women characters that appeared in past games who are excessively exposed"
-"Once you realize the secret reason for her exposure you'll be ashamed of your words and deeds"
Jim Sterling shot down that abhorrent "It's MGS tho" argument perfectly.
People think Japanese studios are worse offenders because it doesn't seem like they've made anywhere near the same amount of effort in making female characters treated as equals to their male counterparts and have actually been getting worse when it comes to representation because they adhere to so many outdated customs, just look at some of their triple A games,
-SO5
-Xenoblade Chronicles
-FFXV
They're the main source at this point.
And like I said, that one of the most mature portrayals of sex in a game, despite the overbearing monologue that spells out the whole point.
captainpat
Member
Stuff like this always comes across as "if this medium is gonna move forward in a direction I like"
You can't really justify nudity with "but it's a shower/sex scene we need it" either though. You can do those kinds of scenes fine without it, at the end of the day it really comes down to you either:
a) Wanting to use nudity to set a certain tone
b) Wanting to use nudity to titillate
That's okay, but I'd rather that people didn't pretend that they are deciding whether or not to have nudity based on realism because odds are they've long since made up their minds before they even think of that.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
By moving air through her vocal cords. I didn't want to bog down the original post with details but Ocelot explains after examining her they found large parts of the lungs and her alveoli specifically being burnt to a crisp, meaning she can't capture oxygen from air in her lungs.
And again, since people can't seem to get this, I'm not saying Quiet isn't naked because Shinkawa likes hot girls. But her and The End don't directly contradict each other.
SkeptiMism
Member
Yes and any decision of any creator can be criticized. That's the way of art. The creator can then ignore the criticism completely or listen to it and do something about it or listen to it and end up doing nothing about it.
Nobody walks up to a woman and ask her about it, because she's a real person. A video game character is not a real person, but it's created by someone. That's why it's up to critique.
If you read the article, the author talks about Cortana. The creators could be honest about it instead of making up bullshit excuses for it. If you don't agree with the author that the excuse they used for it is bullshit, I'd like to hear your opinion why.
No, they wouldn't have needed to provide a reason for it, but they did.
Good creators take into account why others say. It happens all the time. And not just beginning designers, but also more experiences ones - in fact I'd probably claim that once you learn more you generally become better also at listening to critique.
You're not actually saying art that has already been done shouldn't be criticized? Are you aware at all how it goes in literature for example? We still criticize works of art that are thousands of years old.
I can tell you that every single creator, whether it's literature, games, movies, sculpting or even something like architecture, when they are learning (and actually, that's not just while still studying in university or doing your first creation, but your whole career), they look at former works of the field. How were they done? What was good about them? What was bad about them? That's how we learn.
Plenty of developers (even more experiences ones) have also stated out loud that they have become more conscious about these things after people have talked about them. For example Naughty Dog.
As a creator it's really so easy to not think about a lot of things when they're so heavily portrayed everywhere.
I completely agree that Playboy taking out nudes is stupid, but that's a pretty bad example as sex is their whole business.
Video games are not about sex and nudity. A video game can be about sex and nudity and that's completely fine. Just be honest about it.
I'd read the word tender there just as an example.
Partly that, but there are other reasons about it too. One practical reason is that violence is an incredibly easy gameplay mechanic, whereas sexuality in games is (generally) a passive thing.
Plenty of discussion of it here (despite the OP being pretty bad and unconstructive):
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1145738
Tender? Maybe their hate fucking? Maybe it's supposed to be hot? Maybe it's a casual hookup?
Oh, I certainly think that MGS is silly enough to have some unjustified or flimsily justified nudity in it. The thing that seems to be the problem in MGS is how characters of different genders are treated differently in regards to nudity (at least from what I've seen/read - haven't actually played it).
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
I have to agree with you on these new statistics, but being a male and knowing I purchase games regardless of their content at times has me feeling a tad different. I feel that the new market will feel history repeat itself in someway, shape, or form. That's mainly due to the stability it forms around its user base. If the user base is strong and isn't just a fad then you'll see some changes being made.
We did not necessarily have these means of communication back when developers were focusing on those styles of games. They brought in a profit because they were a niche product and they had a fan base. I don't see many games taking the bold approach as Leisure Suit Larry did or something like BMX XXX, but I think if designers want to convey a sense of horror or passion then it is justified.
Wolfenstein The New Order for example has a great example of what I'm getting at. I feel that a man or a woman can enjoy that type of portrayal of sex, granted they are interested in that type of passion. I could see a woman's breasts as being part of a horror game simply because it alludes to more adult themes of horror. Creativity can entertain people with sex or not, but it has to show up in order to do so. That's where I agree with you about changes. Nonsense sex is sorta dead in the water at times unless it really impresses the audience or is just quirky. I also don't think we need to make a comment about breast size just because they're large, but we do it anyway.
IbukiLordSA
Member
What? Why? Who needs a reason?
Drakengard 3 does that, and it's great.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I'm quite confident that women playing games is not just a fad, we're also seeing the influence from many western triple A devs, some more than others.
Do this thing called reading the article.
Pretty sure all the women who also have to see it care.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
"All 26 hours. Multiple times."
Surface of Me
I'm not an NPC. And neither are we.
There is room for naked and non naked women.
Also gay men, asexuals (Possibly?), everyone who likes the characters in their games to actually look somewhat believable,...
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It's almost like there's incredibly prevalent amount of issues when it comes to the treatment and/or portrayal of one gender vs the other in media and society.
Quiet's cool.
Kamitami ftw.
They don't have to see it. They can vote with their wallets like everyone else.
DeadlyVenomGames
Banned
Other women can't handle seeing naked women?
CassidyIzABeast
Member
Stopped reading after the Halo 5 quote. Author didnt even bother do research.