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[Tellaerin]

For the last 10 years, if you've played one Tales game, you've played them all. You already know how the story is going to progress, how the characters are going to "develop", and how the game is going to play. You have no expectation for something different.This matters more here than in something like Halo or COD because we're talking about an RPG series. You come to RPGs for stories and characters. You don't want to experience the same story with the same themes and characters repeatedly.

Except they're not 'the same story'. The same general types of stories, yes, if we paint them with a broad enough brush. That isn't necessarily a negative, though. For those of us who enjoy those kinds of stories, the games feel different enough to be distinctive, but at the same time comfortably familiar.

Unlike Tales, Final Fantasy does make a serious effort to try something new with each new entry, despite remaining an adventure where you recruit party members, fight monsters, and save the world at the end. One game could be a MMO-inspired, real-time, action based medieval drama racked with political strife, the next could be a turn-based cyberpunk romp through an apocalyptic science fiction world, and another could be a modern take on an ROTC/mercenary group trying to stop a sorceress from taking control of the world governments. You're misinterpreting what I mean by "change" if you think I want the Tales series to stop being a JRPG, or if you think I want Tales to adopt something that hasn't been seen anywhere else before. It just needs to try something IT hasn't already done before, and something a new anime series doesn't do every 3 months.

It's funny to read that in light of all the comments I hear about the 'glory days' of Final Fantasy. A lot of people seem to feel the 8- and 16-bit era FF's were superior to later offerings because they weren't so experimental - they all took place in these pseudo-medieval fantasy worlds with light steampunk trappings (airships, etc.), featured heroic fantasy tropes front and center, etc.

People come back to the kinds of things they like. Some of you seem to act like this is a crime, something to be ashamed of. Which to me is really bizarre.

 

[FSLink]

We disagree. The Tales series over the last 10 years (Symphonia, Abyss, Graces, Innocence, and Vesperia) all feel very similar to me (Vesperia to a lesser extent), in terms of gameplay, characterization, & story.

Not sure, but are you saying you only played those 5 games? Because then I'd see why you'd think they'd feel similar gameplay wise (though I would have thought Graces would at least feel pretty different to you) Have you played Rebirth, Destiny remake, or Destiny 2?

 

[chickdigger802]

What?

From a gameplay perspective, Phantasia SNES feels very different from Eternia, which is really different from Rebirth, which is really different from Abyss, which is really different from Destiny PS2, which is really different from Vesperia, which is really different from Graces.

The only real difference is battle system, but then you still pretty much just spam your attacks because it's easy.

Besides battles though, it's pretty much the same stuff. Heck according to my in game clock for graces F, I've fought for 3 hours in my 30 hours save so far.

 

[Shamdeo]

It's funny to read that in light of all the comments I hear about the 'glory days' of Final Fantasy. A lot of people seem to feel the 8- and 16-bit era FF's were superior to later offerings because they weren't so experimental - they all took place in these pseudo-medieval fantasy worlds with light steampunk trappings (airships, etc.), featured heroic fantasy tropes front and center, etc.

Any series that undergoes changes as much as Final Fantasy does is going to have a pretty opinionated audience -- and it sure as hell does. And so you're going to have people saying that X generation of Final Fantasy was the "glory" days.

The fact that Final Fantasy is experimental (leaps and bounds more than the Tales series by comparison) is what allowed it to grow a larger following.

Of course the price to pay for that is the incessant bitching about how if the new Final Fantasy was more like Final Fantasy ____, then it'd be "good" again.

There's nothing wrong with "anime-style" games (Ni no Kuni is a fine example), but I do think that the re-use of assets and the generally uninspired feel of each installment is something Namco Tales (or whatever they are now) need to reassess.

However, it seems that their target market isn't the type to care.

 

[Ghost_Protocol]

People come back to the kinds of things they like. Some of you seem to act like this is a crime, something to be ashamed of. Which to me is really bizarre.

I wouldn't have played as many of the games as I have if they weren't doing something right. That doesn't mean I won't criticize frustrating repetition when I see it.

 

[Sqorgar]

The only real difference is battle system, but then you still pretty much just spam your attacks because it's easy.

Besides battles though, it's pretty much the same stuff. Heck according to my in game clock for graces F, I've fought for 3 hours in my 30 hours save so far.

Graces has Titles, Discovery Locations, Inn Requests, Dualizing, the Eleth Mixer, Soul Orbs, and the Carta game, none of which I've seen in a Tales game (though I haven't played them all, by any stretch). It also lacks a world map, favoring outdoor pathways and turtle-based instant travel.

Basically, everything you do in Graces that isn't watching cutscenes, exploring towns, and dodging on-map monster encounters is different than what you would be doing in Tales of the Abyss.

 

[Rpgmonkey]

We disagree. The Tales series over the last 10 years, Symphonia, Abyss, Graces, and Vesperia all feel very similar to me (Vesperia to a lesser extent), in terms of gameplay, characterization, & story.

Characterization and story, I can certainly see a feeling of deja-vu, but plenty of ideas have popped up over the past ten years for the gameplay since Symphonia, some permanent, some temporary:

-Several games have ditched the TP and/or combo chain structure
-They've switched up the manner in which you acquire, equip, and use skills every time
-You can move in 3D during battle
-They change around stats and their effectiveness/purpose all the time
-Spellcasters have drastically improved in accessibility
-They go for ideas like increasing the significance of going for weak points in battles
-Weapon crafting changes often
-The smaller, more Tales-specific touches like cooking or Grade change every now and then
-Titles have varied in usefulness and purpose
-More has been done to make each character play differently
-Things like AI and party positioning change occasionally
-They throw in a new minigames with some games

And some other things but it would be a waste of both of our time to make a completely exhaustive list.

I'm not sure what you mean about the gameplay feeling similar from game to game, that wouldn't apply to Zelda or Pokemon.

The only real difference is battle system, but then you still pretty much just spam your attacks because it's easy.

I don't see the relevance of difficulty to whether something is different, improved, or new?

Besides the difficulty being the same all the time, ha.

 

[chickdigger802]

I don't see the relevance of difficulty to whether something is different, improved, or new?

Besides the difficulty being the same all the time, ha.

hmmm... I'll reword my statement. spamming your 1 go to combo is the most effective way each game.

Difficulty settings does pretty much nothing besides break the Def stat (depending on game), which just means you need to spam your combo more often and your idiot AI friends die more often.

And have they really changed much at how you acquire skills? No matter what they tell you... you still pretty much just grind out skills to unlock more skills (or titles that unlock more skills).

Crafting has been pretty irrelevant to this series because the boost in damage from 1 tier higher gear is miniscule, and being an action oriented series... skill is more important than stats.

 

[FSLink]

hmmm... I'll reword my statement. spamming your 1 go to combo is the most effective way each game.

Eh, I felt that Destiny remake and to a lesser extent Graces (mostly thanks to Infernal Torrent being so damn good) discouraged this due to the CC systems and applying weaknesses to enemies was very very important, especially in Destiny remake on Chaos.

The additional systems like cooking and crafting yeah, haven't changed too much, though I feel they're put to a great extent in the Team Destiny-esque games. Cooking is so much more useful in say, Rebirth, than Symphonia.

 

[Coxswain]

hmmm... I'll reword my statement. spamming your 1 go to combo is the most effective way each game.

It's really not. If you're playing on Hard or higher, 'spamming' will not help you, and the idea of having a 'go-to' combo is pretty much irrelevant, unless you level grind to the point where Hard is the same as Normal or Easy.

The assertion that the difficulty level doesn't make a difference is also just flagrantly false. The interplay between fixed stats, scaling stats, and actual mechanics makes the game what it is, and the balance between those elements is shifted wildly from one difficulty level to another.

 

[Rpgmonkey]

hmmm... I'll reword my statement. spamming your 1 go to combo is the most effective way each game.

Difficulty settings does pretty much nothing besides break the Def stat (depending on game), which just means you need to spam your combo more often and your idiot AI friends die more often.

And have they really changed much at how you acquire skills? No matter what they tell you... you still pretty much just grind out skills to unlock more skills (or titles that unlock more skills).

Crafting has been pretty irrelevant to this series because the boost in damage from 1 tier higher gear is miniscule, and being an action oriented series... skill is more important than stats.

Yeah, I generally do only bother with higher difficulties when I'm bored or have free time and there is sometimes a "winning combo". I'm not really trying to dispute the quality or lack thereof with their game design choices, but when looking at what they do or don't put into a game, how does it make them the same?

And the manner in which you acquire skills is different in each game just like it is in say, a Final Fantasy game: you get skills and some of them are similar to what they were in previous titles, but the path you take to learning skills is different. In Symphonia it was with EX Gems, in Rebirth it was an ability hidden in each weapon, Abyss used the boosts given by C. Cores, it was a part of the weapon growth system in Destiny R and Hearts, they were learned from equipment in Vesperia, Graces puts them in titles, and Xillia uses some Sphere Grid/Crystarium-like system.

I typically don't care for weapon crafting in Tales in terms of making better weapons because as you say, skill can go a long way, so I tend to not put much effort into them, but sometimes they try to make something a little more unique (especially Hearts, where stat boosts, weapon upgrades, artes, and skills were all consolidated into the weapon development/crafting system)

 

[R_thanatos]

Wont be happy till i see more Tales of the World releases here in NA.
The first was so much fun!

The second and third are like the first but with more character more quests and more fluidity

No this wasn't a lame attempt to put salt on the wound since those won't be localized .

We disagree. The Tales series over the last 10 years (Symphonia, Abyss, Graces, Innocence, and Vesperia) all feel VERY similar to me (Vesperia to a lesser extent), in terms of gameplay, characterization, & story.

How can Abyss & Graces feel similar in gameplay ??? Those have vastly different systems ....
What make Vesperia less than the others when it's basicly Abyss in HD with fatal strikes ?


I don't get it.

 

[frequency]

I don't mean to call out anyone, but I'm pretty sure whoever says the Tales games all play the same either:
A) Hasn't actually played very many games in the series
B) Played them so far apart that the basic concept of a more action-y style combat system makes you think they're all the same because you forget all the other touches that make them so different from each other

I'm not a combat-based gamer and I don't really pay attention to all the technical stuff and I'm pretty slow but even I can tell the difference.

I understand if you just dislike the games. I understand if you feel the core of the battle system is bad and so they're all bad in similar ways for you. But to say they're all the same is just incorrect.

 

[NeededSleep]

The second and third are like the first but with more character more quests and more fluidity

No this wasn't a lame attempt to put salt on the wound since those won't be localized .
.

Yeah, i have pretty much accepted that we wont be seeing them. At some point i'm hopeful that they will test the waters on the PSVita NA release of a Tales of the World game.

Until then ill keep staring at Ragnarok Odyssey hoping that gets a publisher.

 

[Sqorgar]

I don't mean to call out anyone, but I'm pretty sure whoever says the Tales games all play the same either:
A) Hasn't actually played very many games in the series

I think this has pretty much been established. Symphonia, Abyss, and Vesperia. That is the full acknowledgement of the Tales series that Western fans can seem to muster... I blame Namco.

 

[charlequin]

I will echo sentiments on Yuri finally being a good protagonist. And then we get asbel...

Yeah, I mean, broadly speaking, I am strongly in support of the line of discussion in the OP: I think it's worthwhile for Japanese devs to focus on what they're good at instead of blindly pursuing a type of "Western appeal" that they (often) won't get right anyway, and it's best to satisfy the home market. I love Tales because it's full of anime bullshit and it's a series where I know I'll get flouncy costumes and hot springs and people shouting the names of over-the-top attacks. I always love the skits and the parade of second-tier comedy-relief characters (Pascal and Sophie together are probably the best thing about Graces.) I wouldn't want to lose any of that.

But all that said, I still think Yuri is a high-water mark for protagonists in the series and Asbel is pretty darn awful. If "appealing to Westerners" means pandering and throwing away what makes the series good, then forget it; but if it means stretching their muscles a bit and stepping outside their comfort zone to try out characters that are a bit unexpected, I really hope they'll try to do so again.

(I mean, I say all this with love. I prefer it when Western games work to push past the most pat execution of cliches and deliver something interesting and new. I probably wouldn't even comment if I wasn't finding Asbel to be maybe the worst hero in a Western-released Tales.)

I'm bolding this entire paragraph because I feel it's the most important part of the entire interview, and something I've been spouting in threads like these for ages. Japanese developing for Japanese. Seeking success in Japan is a legitimate business model. If some in the West catch on, good for them. If not, then these games simply aren't for you.

I just wish (or, I guess, going forward, hope) this translates into a renewed effort to give Western audiences the chance. A lot of Tales' failure to catch on before the recent "lol japan" trend caught on is due to incompetent franchise management by Namco. If they could at very least commit to localizing the mainline series without leaving Western fans constantly grasping at straws it'd be a lot easier to try to advocate the series as a long-time fan. Right now you get a lot of "lol Xillia like we'll even get that" and I can't blame anyone but Namco for fostering that attitude.

This interview made up my mind on whether or not to buy Graces f. There. Bought.

My fairly narrow complaints about Asbel aside, it's a fantastic game and you will not regret your choice.

It's one of those things like X, where it's heavily pandering toward a female audience but trying to be action-enough for a male audience. Plays out like your standard Yuu Watase shoujo story.

This is pretty insightful, lol.

 

[Datschge]

The only real difference is battle system, but then you still pretty much just spam your attacks because it's easy.

That's fully the player's loss though if he chooses to play a game on autopilot only because the game offers the option to do so.

I think this has pretty much been established. Symphonia, Abyss, and Vesperia. That is the full acknowledgement of the Tales series that Western fans can seem to muster... I blame Namco.

It's a huge shame indeed that the more daring games didn't get out of Japan. And now it seems that it's TP vs. CC instead completely mixing up subsystems and battle system between each game.

This is news to me, any figures?

To be fair, a large percentage of people who are into Tales games in North America are also female. All of the friends I talk to on Facebook about Tales games are girls.

It was in one of the Iwata Asks.

 

[djtiesto]

Also, I think the problem a lot of people have with Japan right now is that they are just about the only culture on Earth that makes games just for them. That's why "western" really just means every country that isn't Japan.

Countries all over Europe make games for the global market. Even Eastern European games are palatable to American PC gamers. Hell, even most Chinese and Korean games resemble European PC games more than they do Japanese games.

I think it's good that Japan does this in order to retain their particular gaming culture (like every culture does with film, music, etc.), but you have to admit it is kind of isolating their market from the rest of the world.

Well, tough shit for those people then. There are plenty of other companies making games for the global market that haters can play. It's extremely refreshing that there are still some Japanese designers out there making game for their home market and people like me (foreigners who vastly prefer Japanese game design paradigms and storylines to western ones).